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Main Area => General GS500 Discussion => Topic started by: owenh on September 04, 2007, 08:19:38 PM

Title: Last foriegn bike
Post by: owenh on September 04, 2007, 08:19:38 PM
I ahve made up my mind today that the GS will be the first and last foriegn bike i own :mad:. Not trying to tick anyone off here but thats just the way it is. My bike was running a little screwy lately (lean conditions) so i took it in becuase its still covered under warranty becuase i baught it new in june of this year. The guy who i baught the bike from(my moms cousin) suggested an early 7k mile service (it has 5500 on it) this seemed like a good idea and he was probobaly right in making this decision. SO come to find out the valves are burnt. so im looking at it being a near full week at the shop for a valve job. granted, i dont have to pay for this but i still dont understand how a bike that was dealer serviced with 5500 miles could burn valves. So theres no way to tell if its just going to eat through more the next 5k i put on it. so i think a rejet is in order. then im going to sell it in the spring. anyone thats interested ill post it in the spring. and next summer ill be on a 1200 sportster or xb9sx. :cheers:
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: The Antibody on September 04, 2007, 08:22:36 PM
Get ready to fix that one... a lot.

  -Anti  8)
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: owenh on September 04, 2007, 08:24:55 PM
not really.

my dad has 03 road king. that he hhasnt had any problems with. it has 18k on it now.
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: The Antibody on September 04, 2007, 08:42:07 PM
Buells, I'm talking about Buells. I like the XB1200's though, but I would never by one.

  -Anti  8)
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: yupoo on September 04, 2007, 08:49:27 PM
Jap > american in terms of sport bike reliability. Buells are making headway but seriously, most sport bikes never die before thier owned wreck them. I saw a recent post of an 04 honda cbr turning 100k miles recently. If you were buying new i would definately buy a jap bike and still if buying used, i would buy a jap bike
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: highnoonhunter on September 04, 2007, 09:06:17 PM
I've been researching bikes for several months now. If my mind don't change my next bike will be a Buell XB12. (I'll be keeping the GS500f as a errand runner). But I'm not going to buy one with expectation that it'll be trouble free, nor have super dealer support. From the Buell forums I've been on, Buell has the worst reputation of dealer support than any bike out there.

But from what I've seen and heard, a lot of bike dealers are the same. I went to the local Suzuki/Yamaha dealer and told them I thought my bike was running lean after reading some threads on here. The mechanic looked at me and told me they don't get no better than how they're tuned from the factory, and said I had a dirty carb. I was gonna buy or at least order some larger jets, but they pretty much wouldn't even talk about selling me any. Later I ordered some online and rejetted, and it cured the problem. My carbs looked brand new inside.

My cousin has the same problems with getting his Harley serviced at his dealer. Last year they told him his motor needed rebuilt because it sounded like the thing was gonna fly apart. He took it home and was determined to find the noise it had began to make shortly after he had it serviced. He found a spark plug socket wrench they had left when they serviced his bike, and it had lodged on the engine and it was rattling at high RPMs!

I think whatever you buy will need worked on. But for me, that's half the fun. Just so long as I'm riding more than I'm working!

hnh


Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: RobTheTyrant on September 05, 2007, 06:30:16 AM
Go for a harley if you're up for low quality at a WAY too high price... JMO
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: scottpA_GS on September 05, 2007, 06:44:07 AM
Quote from: RobTheTyrant on September 05, 2007, 06:30:16 AM
Go for a harley if you're up for low quality at a WAY too high price... JMO

+1

I will NEVER EVER buy any vehicle car, truck or bike made in america  :thumb:
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: frankieG on September 05, 2007, 06:46:52 AM
i was there working on your bike owen,  to me it looked like lack of oil changes that did that to the valves.  you do have 6000 miles on it with only one oil change.
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: Dan02GS on September 05, 2007, 07:35:41 AM
Humm, I really think that there is a new generation of Harley Davidsons, a guy I work with bought one two years ago, before he bought it I told him dont do it numerous times. Now I have to admit I was totally wrong the thing runs like champ. Where I live Harley is really big, Ventura has a huge population of Hells Angels types and unfortunately I live about 6 blocks from their headquarters. So, I see alot of Harleys here and the funny thing is that I used to see alot more on the side of the rode then I do now. Maybe the quality is alot better then we think, still mechanics can do alot of damage to a fine machine. Good luck with what ever you choose, but make sure you have a good friend that knows the bike.
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: frankieG on September 05, 2007, 08:13:33 AM
owen i am going up to see you today and let you know what i saw in your more.  hopefully that will help you understand why this happened.  btw i am really sorry, i have had vavle problems before and it sucks
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: Xyloft on September 05, 2007, 09:09:03 AM
you know,  i'm happy with you saying i'll never buy a suzuki again...but another foreign bike? 

thats like having a problem with a ford focus and saying - hell - no more american cars for me.  not even a chrysler crossfire which shares a platform with a mercedes clk230.   or then buying a mazda 3...which is on teh same platform as a focus.  or then buyign a civic, that is built in indiana. 

i'm sure that triumph or BMW motorcycles have little to nothign to do with how well designed (in your oppinion) a suzuki is.  and i'm sure honda, ducati, aprilia and yamaha don't share much with suzuki either.

did you get the first service done at 5,500 ? or did you get the factory recommended service at 600, and the other increments? there is a valve adjustment including in the 600 miles maintenance  http://gstwin.com/initial_service.htm  if they were out of adjustement for 5,000 miles i can see them being blown. 

regardless of what bike you get, it's goign to be more maintenance than a car and not following that maintenance seems to be very bad. 

i also work with a guy who supports digital engineering environments, he says he has personally seen Buells, and would never ever buy a buell after seeing their engineering environment.  to each thier own though.   Harely is trying to erase the stigma that they are poor quality so they're trying to turn thigns around.  and the new Buell 1125R is pretty bad radical

(http://www.motobikeblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/buell1125R.jpg) 
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: dgyver on September 05, 2007, 09:27:18 AM
Quote from: scottpA_GS on September 05, 2007, 06:44:07 AM
Quote from: RobTheTyrant on September 05, 2007, 06:30:16 AM
Go for a harley if you're up for low quality at a WAY too high price... JMO

+1

I will NEVER EVER buy any vehicle car, truck or bike made in america  :thumb:

Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, Toyota, BMW all have assembly plants in the US. Would you buy an "imported" brand assembled by an American?

The quality of the product not only is determined by the design but also by the assembler. Same thing is true for service. The work is only as good as the person doing it.
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: TonyKZ1 on September 05, 2007, 09:35:59 AM
Quote
The quality of the product not only is determined by the design but also by the assembler. Same thing is true for service. The work is only as good as the person doing it.

+1 Definitely.
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: Chuck on September 05, 2007, 10:23:23 AM
Quote from: scottpA_GS on September 05, 2007, 06:44:07 AM
I will NEVER EVER buy any vehicle car, truck or bike made in america  :thumb:

The last two foreign cars I've had (Honda and Subaru) were made in America.  So good luck.
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: ohgood on September 05, 2007, 01:24:41 PM
What's this ? Don't blame the cause for the affect ?

If you failed to follow the recommendations, how can you blame the entire BRAND ?

And by the way, failing to maintain a suzuki is MUCH cheaper than doing so with a HD. The initial outlay is far greater for a HD.

By the way, just fixing and maintaining your current machine will pan out much much cheaper than outlay for yet another machine, and then following your current method of upkeep.


Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: Chuck on September 05, 2007, 02:17:37 PM
Quote from: ohgood on September 05, 2007, 01:24:41 PM
If you failed to follow the recommendations, how can you blame the entire BRAND ?

He didn't blame the brand.  Be blamed the NATION, and every other nation that is not the USA.  :laugh:

Oh, yeah.... I'm a patriotic bastard, but I wish my damn country could build a motorcycle, or a computer, or unleaded baby toys.  Back in the 50's, a heap of ore would get shoved in one side of the GM plant, and cars would roll out the other side.  We're so far away from that it's scary.
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: toyopete on September 05, 2007, 02:23:41 PM
Quote from: Dan02GS on September 05, 2007, 07:35:41 AM
Humm, I really think that there is a new generation of Harley Davidsons, a guy I work with bought one two years ago, before he bought it I told him dont do it numerous times. Now I have to admit I was totally wrong the thing runs like champ. Where I live Harley is really big, Ventura has a huge population of Hells Angels types and unfortunately I live about 6 blocks from their headquarters. So, I see alot of Harleys here and the funny thing is that I used to see alot more on the side of the rode then I do now. Maybe the quality is alot better then we think, still mechanics can do alot of damage to a fine machine. Good luck with what ever you choose, but make sure you have a good friend that knows the bike.

The Harley's are getting better al the time, japanese pistons carbs etc,......gn gn gn
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: owenh on September 05, 2007, 03:18:47 PM
frankie. i had pat change the oil in it at the intial service. then i changed it at 3000 and used synthetic. the book says every 4500 miles and i it has 5500 on it now. so its only been 2500 miles since the last change. and the oil seemed pretty clear to me.
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: ohgood on September 05, 2007, 04:08:08 PM
Chuck said:

If you failed to follow the recommendations, how can you blame the entire BRAND ?

He didn't blame the brand.  Be blamed the NATION, and every other nation that is not the USA. 

Oh, yeah.... I'm a patriotic bastard, but I wish my damn country could build a motorcycle, or a computer, or unleaded baby toys.  Back in the 50's, a heap of ore would get shoved in one side of the GM plant, and cars would roll out the other side.  We're so far away from that it's scary.

Ya, I know the feeling man. I see management pushing shaZam! out the door 'to make this delivery deadline' and it's a shame. Another 2-5% of the total time and effort on the job would make a good product, instead they consistantly ship shaZam!.

I'd love to believe chevy made a good truck, and buy a big plasma tv made here, but I'm afraid that day will never happen. The japs (japs meaning those really smart people that build dependable awesome products) figured it out long ago.


Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: spc on September 05, 2007, 04:12:47 PM
Our country does build computers.  They're called Macs, and they're far superior to the 'other' offerings. :thumb:
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: Chuck on September 05, 2007, 04:25:49 PM
I'm pretty sure those superior computers are built in Singapore.   :icon_rolleyes:
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: scottpA_GS on September 05, 2007, 04:26:33 PM
Quote from: Chuck on September 05, 2007, 10:23:23 AM
Quote from: scottpA_GS on September 05, 2007, 06:44:07 AM
I will NEVER EVER buy any vehicle car, truck or bike made in america  :thumb:

The last two foreign cars I've had (Honda and Subaru) were made in America.  So good luck.


Yea, I know that... I also know that a few Fords/Chevys are built in Mexico. My point should have been more clear that I dont like "American Brands" Mainly because of my great experiences w/ Hondas that I have owned vs GM's that I have owned... To narrow it down I will only buy Hondas or Toyotas  :thumb:
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: dgyver on September 05, 2007, 06:13:38 PM
Quote from: scottpA_GS on September 05, 2007, 04:26:33 PM
Quote from: Chuck on September 05, 2007, 10:23:23 AM
Quote from: scottpA_GS on September 05, 2007, 06:44:07 AM
I will NEVER EVER buy any vehicle car, truck or bike made in america  :thumb:

The last two foreign cars I've had (Honda and Subaru) were made in America.  So good luck.


Yea, I know that... I also know that a few Fords/Chevys are built in Mexico. My point should have been more clear that I dont like "American Brands" Mainly because of my great experiences w/ Hondas that I have owned vs GM's that I have owned... To narrow it down I will only buy Hondas or Toyotas  :thumb:

We all base future purchases on past experiences. As long as each are content with their choice. The most reliable vehicle I have owned was a Dodge and then Mazda. The least was a Chevy with my current Toyota begging to be the worst. Others at the top of the crap pile are Ford and Honda. Both had complete transmission and motor failures. As for motorcycles...Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki and Honda all have been equal with good reliability to me.
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: Xyloft on September 06, 2007, 01:55:15 PM
Quote from: spcterry on September 05, 2007, 04:12:47 PM
Our country does build computers.  They're called Macs, and they're far superior to the 'other' offerings. :thumb:

i was going to say "but they've switch to intel archetecture"  then i realised that Microsoft, Intel, and AMD are all american companies.  it makes sense:

american companies build chips in asia.  Asia builds cars in america?  see. even steven.   

Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: lossfound on September 06, 2007, 02:33:01 PM
Quote from: spcterry on September 05, 2007, 04:12:47 PM
Our country does build computers.  They're called Macs, and they're far superior to the 'other' offerings. :thumb:

My workplace just ponied up $2300 for a brand new Macbook Pro for me (which I didn't even want, but that's a whole other story). You open up the box for any Apple product and it says "Designed by Apple in California." However, the bottom of the Macbook Pro tells an entirely different story: "Made in China."

My Fujitsu Lifebook was half that, gets double the battery life, doesn't burn my legs *through* my jeans, and at least it was made in freakin' Japan. :)

But this is probably the wrong place for platform wars.
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: Chuck on September 06, 2007, 02:34:10 PM
Quote from: lossfound on September 06, 2007, 02:33:01 PM
But this is probably the wrong place for platform wars.

This thread was never useful, so it can't get worse.
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: drowningbird808 on September 06, 2007, 04:51:18 PM
sorry but harleys and buells and victorys  are years behind with there perfomance compared to suzuki kawi hando and yamaha
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: owenh on September 06, 2007, 06:30:18 PM
true. but i think your forgetting that harley started the idea of the performance motorcycle. harleys were being raced years before the japanese even made a motorcycle.
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: owenh on September 06, 2007, 06:49:18 PM
and i dont care if buell may have thier problems, erik buell is brilliant and makes some of the most innovative and different motorcycles and that shouldnt go unnoticed.
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: dgyver on September 06, 2007, 09:43:44 PM
Quote from: owenh on September 06, 2007, 06:30:18 PM
true. but i think your forgetting that harley started the idea of the performance motorcycle. harleys were being raced years before the japanese even made a motorcycle.

So how does starting an idea first or racing before make a bike better?  HD was hurt by others than the Japs...German & British both hurt HD.

How many years have they been using the same motor technology, 70+ years? Too bad they only started with an idea and never really improved it.

I got a good laugh when I heard a radio commercial promoting HD's new advancement....the 6 speed tranny!

Ironic that a tariff in the early 80's on importing Japanese motorcyles actually helped HD to stay alive.
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: nightrider on September 06, 2007, 11:55:32 PM
Sonny Barger, ex-president of the Hell's Angels himself, said if he could get away with it he'd ride a Kawasaki. He said the quality, design, performance, price, everything was better. But he couldn't cause he was the president of the Hells Angels...  :laugh:
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: simon79 on September 07, 2007, 02:43:55 AM
Quote from: dgyver on September 06, 2007, 09:43:44 PM
I got a good laugh when I heard a radio commercial promoting HD's new advancement....the 6 speed tranny!

:o
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
roflmao
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: owenh on September 07, 2007, 03:52:46 AM
they ahvnt changed the motor technology becuase that is what has been working for over a hundred years. these bikes arnt all about performance like many japanese bikes and i think youll find that they can still outperform many. and when you talk about not advancing themselves at all, you are forgetting about the v-rod.
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: dgyver on September 07, 2007, 04:58:52 AM
Pushod technology is very old. Yeah does work but there are much better designs. Too bad HD has always resitance to change. ooo the V-rod...their only new design. Which came with mixed feelings since it was newer technology. They have not developed any new technology.

Outperform how? Last time I saw a HD in a super bike race it failed within 3 laps. The only racing they seem to be competive in is flat track.

Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: owenh on September 07, 2007, 05:23:09 PM
your not thinking. these are two different motorcylce doing two very different things. your trying to compare the performance of a ferrari to a 1 ton pickup. both are excellent at very different things. and some people like one more than the other. the 1 ton could pull the ferrari backwards up the side of a house, but the ferrari would smoke it racing. it all depends on what individual riders favor towards.
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: owenh on September 07, 2007, 05:27:10 PM
i also have one more question, if the harley is so outdated and such crap as you seem to describe it, why does every single japanese comany make a mimick of it. its because thats what sells, and thats what the majority of people want. something comfortable, loud, stylish.
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: drowningbird808 on September 07, 2007, 05:32:19 PM
im not bias towards anything but the american motor companies are behind the europeans and japanease, ppl own harleys just to say "yeh dude i have a harley" kinda like owning a big truck. i would love to see HD get 160h outa 1000cc bike
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: dgyver on September 07, 2007, 08:41:08 PM
Quote from: owenh on September 07, 2007, 05:23:09 PM
your not thinking. these are two different motorcylce doing two very different things. your trying to compare the performance of a ferrari to a 1 ton pickup. both are excellent at very different things. and some people like one more than the other. the 1 ton could pull the ferrari backwards up the side of a house, but the ferrari would smoke it racing. it all depends on what individual riders favor towards.

You are the one who brought up that they had been racing first. I just stated that they are not competive with the imports.
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: dgyver on September 07, 2007, 08:50:42 PM
Quote from: owenh on September 07, 2007, 05:27:10 PM
i also have one more question, if the harley is so outdated and such crap as you seem to describe it, why does every single japanese comany make a mimick of it. its because thats what sells, and thats what the majority of people want. something comfortable, loud, stylish.

Get your facts straight. I never said they are crap but using outdated technology.

Show me what every Jap company mimicks.

HD has become a status symbol. Plenty of owners only buy them because of a name and image.
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: pantablo on September 07, 2007, 10:20:30 PM
Quote from: owenh on September 07, 2007, 05:27:10 PM
i also have one more question, if the harley is so outdated and such crap as you seem to describe it, why does every single japanese comany make a mimick of it. its because thats what sells, and thats what the majority of people want. something comfortable, loud, stylish.

japanese companies are selling into the "Lifestyle" that HD created, and that is so popular. Unfortunately we have Marlon Brando to thank for that...
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: jake42 on September 07, 2007, 10:43:34 PM
just go buy your goddamn Harley and quit trying to tell us about how great they are.
A bike's a bike. Buy it, ride it, fix it.  Don't come and make stupid ass statements and then get pissy when people tell you about it.
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: frankieG on September 08, 2007, 06:46:36 AM
owen is a good guy he was just upset, as any of us would be, about his bike
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: Mandres on September 08, 2007, 04:26:07 PM
It sounds to me like the dealer is stepping up and doing the right thing.  All machines have the potential for problems, that's why they have a warranty.  Maybe the valve seats were improperly machined at the factory?  Maybe you got a dirty load of gas that left grit deposits on the valve faces?  Maybe the synthetic oil you used came from a bad batch and was the wrong viscosity?  Who knows?  What's important is that the dealer honors their commitment and fixes the problem, which it sounds like they are doing. 

If you really want a Harley that's cool, but understand that these kinds of things happen on every brand.  Buying American isn't a guarantee that you won't have any problems.

Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: DrtRydr23 on September 08, 2007, 07:57:30 PM
Quote from: Mandres on September 08, 2007, 04:26:07 PM

If you really want a Harley that's cool, but understand that these kinds of things happen on every brand.  Buying American isn't a guarantee that you won't have any problems.



Gotta agree here.  Every brand of bike comes with horror stories about mechanical problems that shouldn't be there, no matter what country appears to produce them.  You probably just had some bad luck, and if you're an unlucky guy you'll probably have bad luck with a Buell or Harley as well.  I think that if you average it out Jap bikes would be more reliable than Harleys or Buells, but I'm not saying you shouldn't get a Harley if you want one.  Harley reliability seems to going way up in the last 5 to 10 years.  Most people I talk to that own newer Harleys say that they've had little to no problems with them with regular maintenance (is that spelled right?).  I say buy what you want, and don't worry about people on here telling you you're making a mistake.  You've got to be happy with what you ride.....and if you don't like it, Harley resale value tends to be pretty high.

If you're looking at Sportsters, you should consider the 06-07 Roadsters.  They're 1200's with blacked out motors and are set up for more of a sporty ride (for a Harley that is).  They are making them for 08 as well, but they changed the tank so that they don't look as good.  However they do have a larger fuel capacity in 08.
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: xb9ser on September 08, 2007, 10:00:06 PM
Compareing a Buell to a Harley is like compareing apples and oranges.I have both a 93 GS500 and a 03 Buell xb9s. The buell gets ridden a lot more. The gs is a fun bike but the Buell has twice the HP and the same weight and gets the same mileage or better.If you get a XB model they have very few proplems but most dealers suck. They are very easy to work on just get the factory manue l If intrested in buells check out Badweatherbikers.com. By far best Buell site.I'm not kocking  the gs it is is fun but i like the buell better.I mainly use the gs now to ride to work and the Buell to play.
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: xb9ser on September 08, 2007, 10:04:19 PM
My 18 year old daughter is wanting to learn to ride , so she is starting out on the gs. great for this
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: owenh on September 09, 2007, 02:11:25 AM
what are your opinions on the xb9sx. are a you tall? because im 6'1" and they look pretty cramped for taller people.
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: xb9ser on September 09, 2007, 05:52:41 PM
owenh I have 03 xb9sl which was the lowered version that  year never rode a X.I am 5ft 8 and it fits great.You might want to check out XB12SS the long version.Or maybe the XB12STT. it is based on long with a slightly taller suspension.Even though it is set up for no passenger all you have to do is add mounts and foot pegs holes are allready there
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: yamahonkawazuki on September 10, 2007, 01:37:28 AM
Quote from: xb9ser on September 09, 2007, 05:52:41 PM
owenh I have 03 xb9sl which was the lowered version that  year never rode a X.I am 5ft 8 and it fits great.You might want to check out XB12SS the long version.Or maybe the XB12STT. it is based on long with a slightly taller suspension.Even though it is set up for no passenger all you have to do is add mounts and foot pegs holes are allready there
the xb9s is an 883 with higher compression, ( and a few cubes), and teh anti harley bias here, is like the anti jap bias on a harley site. ( mostly uninformed. or opinion sharing) :thumb: i had put teh heads from an xb9s on my 883c, and it performed flawlessly. and i AM a certified hd tech so i DO know what im talking about :thumb:, some hd's i dont like ( at all) some jap bikes i dont like at all either. but comparing them is liek theother poster said, comparing apples to oranges :dunno_white:, and complaining about the pushrod engine, ( why do it?) or the engine being an old design, well hell complain that the gs engine ( with VERY FEW mods) is unchanged. as are most. also nothing wrong with a pushrod engine. if you want to rev it to 12k then prolly NOT the right engine for you. but a good sprited cruise? great tehn :thumb:
Title: Re: Last foriegn bike
Post by: MrDan on September 12, 2007, 08:03:43 AM
Quote from: scottpA_GS on September 05, 2007, 06:44:07 AM
Quote from: RobTheTyrant on September 05, 2007, 06:30:16 AM
Go for a harley if you're up for low quality at a WAY too high price... JMO

+1

I will NEVER EVER buy any vehicle car, truck or bike made in america  :thumb:

So Toyota's out eh?  And some Hyundai, BMW, etc.  :)