On the 20th of September I was riding home on I-15 in the dark. The bike had run great on the 25-mile outbound trip, and had started up without complaint for the return trip.
About halfway home, on level ground, the bike suddenly started bucking. I had gone less than 30 miles since filling up, so I was pretty sure it wasn't a fuel problem. But whatever the problem was, it was obvious that I needed to get off the road. The headlight was coming and going along with the engine, and I knew I was "near the end". I was in the "fast" lane next to the HOV lane, so I had to cross three lanes (including an on ramp) to get to the emergency lane. I couldn't tell if my taillight or turn signals were working, so it was kinda dicey in the dark. Luckily, there were no cars in my immediate vicinity.
I had only gotten over one lane when the bike went POW! and died. I pulled in the clutch and kept moving over a lane at a time with my head swiveling back and forth to make sure I wouldn't get run over. I had been doing about 75, so I coasted for almost half a mile ... using the headlights from passing cars to illuminate my path. I was going pretty slow when the next exit started coming up, so I stopped in order to stay safely out of the way of possible "early exit-ers".
The bike wouldn't start. It wouldn't even "tick". I knew the fuse was OK, because my oil light came on, but that was IT. In other words, I had an electrical problem with some meat to it.
I had brought my TracFone along, so I figured I could call my wife and get some phone numbers for friends / neighbors / coworkers with a truck. Only I knew I wouldn't be able to hear her, standing there on the side of the freeway. So I started walking toward the exit with my helmet and tank bag.
I had only gone about 50 yards when a bike went past with a "Potato Potato Potato" sound. It slowed and pulled over about 30 yards ahead of me. When I caught up with it, the rider turned to me and said, "I hate it when that happens!" He turned out to be a local Harley rider, in his early 60s I would guess, who had taken his Sportster out for a spin. Was I glad to see him!
He gave me a ride to a Chevron station, where I borrowed a phone book and started making calls. My coworkers (with trucks) who lived between there and home didn't answer, and neither did the first few neighbors I tried. I finally reached a 70-year old neighbor, who came to rescue me with his pickup and his beefy grandson ... and a ramp and tie-downs from another neighbor. (Thank goodness for the grandson!)
The whole "adventure" only lasted about an hour and a half. It could have been a lot worse. In fact, some of you may remember that I was planning a trip to the Grand Canyon. I was supposed to have left the week before, but things heated up at work and I had to cancel. Whew! It would have been a LOT worse to break down in the middle of the Arizona desert....
I put the battery on the charger, and it was fully charged in the morning. Hmmmm. OK, so the battery had kept the bike running as long as it could, but it must not have been getting charged. Prime suspects? The alternator and/or the regulator/rectifier.
Within a day or two I was able to do some tests. The charged battery started the bike ... no problem. I tested the alternator, but the results were not exactly conclusive. No shorts or breaks, but the alternator only put out ~62 volts AC compared to the 75V minimum listed in the Haynes manual. Still, the voltage across the battery terminals was a (barely) acceptable 13.5 volts DC with the engine running at 5,000 RPM.
At this point, bad weather and/or getting home from work after dark got in the way of further testing ... until today. I re-ran the alternator tests, with the same results. Then I moved to the other side of the bike to test the regulator/rectifier. Bingo! Everywhere I should have found 6 ohms of resistance, I measured nearly 8K ohms. And where I should have measured 40 ohms I found an open circuit (infinite resistance).
Where does all of this leave me? Looking for a replacement R/R unit. :icon_confused: See my ["WANTED" thread (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=38454.0)].
Can anybody help?
Yeow, that's no fun. Goes to show not all Harley guys are bad. :)
So what caused the POW!? Do you think it backfired when the power went out, or does the regulator have a big smoking hole in it?
If I had a spare I'd drop it in the mail today.
I had a look at the regulator-rectifier site. They look new to me. I would be inclined to call them and ask. Alternatively, they may have a universal solution.
Hope you get it back together shortly.
Something similar happened to a buddy of mine. Basically running on the battery until it ran out of juice, filled the carbs with gas and then had 1 more spark to ignite the fumes. I was behind him when it made an awesome fireball. The bike had been envolved in a couple of wrecks and later he found a short in the electrical system.
Quote from: dgyver on October 16, 2007, 05:31:42 AM
Something similar happened to a buddy of mine. Basically running on the battery until it ran out of juice, filled the carbs with gas and then had 1 more spark to ignite the fumes.
Yep - by the time I got to the Chevron station, this is exactly what I figured must have happened.
Quote from: GeeP on October 16, 2007, 05:02:53 AM
So what caused the POW!? Do you think it backfired when the power went out, or does the regulator have a big smoking hole in it?
No hole. ;) I figure the reg/rect probably "popped" when I started the bike to come home, and the battery did its brave best for 12 miles.
Hmmmm ... if the alternator is only putting out 62 volts AC instead of 75+, the R/R must have been working overtime to supply a nominal DC voltage to the battery. I wonder how long I can expect a replacement R/R to last under those circumstances?
I plan to write up the test procedures tonight (I've taken the photos already). Maybe a couple folks could break out their meters and let me know what
their readings are ... just to tell me if I'm in the ballpark?
I may have some measurements from previous repairs, they were at least 70v though. I can get readings from 2 of my bikes.
Doug (starwalt) took some static readings of several stators that I had. Maybe he still has them. We were trying to determine a way to check a stator that was not installed.
Thanks dgyver ... that would be great! :thumb:
If starwalt doesn't make an appearance, I'll try to contact him and ask about his "data store".
WOW... Sorry to hear about your mis-adventure :icon_rolleyes:
I hope you can get back on the road soon :thumb:
Quote from: Kerry on October 16, 2007, 10:06:02 AM
Thanks dgyver ... that would be great! :thumb:
If starwalt doesn't make an appearance, I'll try to contact him and ask about his "data store".
You rang??
My readings were of the
inductance of the stator using the "L" function of my mulitmeter. If you happen to have that function on a meter, then we can compare notes.
My idea is to make a circuit you connect the leads from the stator to and have it give a "Green Yellow Red" output indicating the range of inductance of the windings.
A dead short or open should be a "Red" condition.
I'm gonna check the posts on your reg/rect request. It seems to me that a fair trade for a Kodak is in order. :laugh:
I'd be happy to submit some readings, just let me know what/where you'd like to know what is going on. I'll have a new battery in my '00 soon, and can get my DMM on the job for it.
I must be getting old.... :oops:
I just found THIS OLD POST (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=16543.msg146801#msg146801) where I told someone that I had an extra regulator/rectifier. I'm going to rummage through the shed tonight to see if I still have it. If I do, and it tests out, it's going on the bike!
So don't send out those packages ... yet. ;)
Kerry, you sound like me.... having stuff but forget that you do.
any 5 wire voltage reg should work off of many suzukis and even yamadogs
i think i have a TL one for my bike
with some extra cooling fins
Quote from: dgyver on October 16, 2007, 06:03:59 PM
Kerry, you sound like me.... having stuff but forget that you do.
I don't have the extra R/R unit after all. I looked everywhere I could see (or think of) and ... nothing. Then I got the bright idea to look through my (manually) archived PM conversations with GStwin'ers. Sure enough, I sent my extra R/R unit out on 16 April 2005 ... to the party-in-need from that old thread.
Oh well! I guess that means I'm back in the market.
YAY for fellow riders and good neighbors!! :cheers: I hope someone has the extra R/R unit for ya'!
Quote from: pandy on October 17, 2007, 10:39:32 AM
YAY for fellow riders and good neighbors!! :cheers:
I'll second that! :thumb:
Quote from: pandy on October 17, 2007, 10:39:32 AM
I hope someone has the extra R/R unit for ya'!
Here's where we add a "YAY" for fellow GStwinners.
starwalt is ending me an extra R/R unit, and several others made great offers. Thanks, folks! :kiss3:
YAY for GSTwin members, too!!!
starwalt is my hero. Hi starwalt!!!!! :kiss3:
(Shameless temporary threadjack from a desperate women: vote here (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=38475.0;topicseen)!!!) :oops:
Quote from: Kerry on October 16, 2007, 08:56:53 AM
I plan to write up the test procedures tonight (I've taken the photos already). Maybe a couple folks could break out their meters and let me know what their readings are ... just to tell me if I'm in the ballpark?
OK, so I'm one night late. (http://bbburma.net/Smilies/doh.gif)
I have a replacement regulator/rectifier on the way (http://bbburma.net/Smilies/headbang.gif), but I would still appreciate some feedback on the alternator side of things. For the testing procedure, see the new [HOW TO: Test the charging system (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=38480.0)] topic in the FAQ forum.
I was not sure if you still wanted the readings. I might get some free time this weekend, unless it rains tonight.
Quote from: dgyver on October 18, 2007, 03:58:33 AM
I was not sure if you still wanted the readings.
No problem! I didn't want to ask for measurements until I supplied the "How To" ... for folks out there who don't have a manual yet.
I should have mentioned that the measurements I'm most interested in are the ones from step 19 in the "How To".
Thanks in advance to everyone who takes the time! I really appreciate it. :bowdown:
I was thinking Step 19 but Step 16 is not a problem.
You're absolutely right - I did mean step 19. :oops:
Modified the post.
Kerry sorry to hear about your misfortune, I am sure a lot of people will benefit from your post on How to test the charging system. Hope all is going well :thumb:
Hi Kerry,
As requested, here are the results of electrical testing on my 1995 GS500E (that is in good running condition). The bike was warmed for 5-10 minutes prior to measurements:
1) Between battery terminals (~5000 rpm) = 14.0 Vdc
2) Between each alternator wire and ground (battery neg.), bike "off":
yellow = 15 M-Ohm
white/green = 15 M-Ohm
white/blue = 15 M-Ohm
3) Between each wire pair, bike "off" = 0 Ohm
4) Betweeen each pair of alternator wires (~5000 rpm):
yellow - white/green = 82 Vac
yellow - white/blue = 83 Vac
white/green - white/blue = 81 Vac
Hope this helps! Good luck with your bike.
Thanks for the feedback, beRto ... it looks like you have a healthy bike! :thumb:
Mine on the other hand, seems to relatively "anemic". :cry: Oh, and I goofed royally on my regulator/rectifier tests, so it looks like my alternator is the main suspect after all. (More on that later.)
Aww crap!
I hope you don't have Starwalt's. :mad:
Quote from: GeeP on October 20, 2007, 07:51:17 PM
I hope you don't have Starwalt's. :mad:
Actually, I received
starwalt's R/R unit yesterday. But that's what helped me figure out my problem. :thumb:
I decided to perform the resistance tests on
starwalt's unit before I put it in my bike. Surprisingly, the results were pretty similar to the ones for
MY unit!
As I said, I'll post a full-blown report fairly soon. But here's a teaser: Trust
Clymer on this one! :icon_rolleyes:
Quote from: pandy on October 17, 2007, 10:47:25 AM
YAY for GSTwin members, too!!!
starwalt is my hero. Hi starwalt!!!!! :kiss3:
(Shameless temporary threadjack from a desperate women: vote here (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=38475.0;topicseen)!!!) :oops:
:nono: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: anyhoo, least you got her well will be getting her goin, i had stumbled across a rr from a parts collection, i would have sent, ( free of ocurse ;) ) but you got her covered. btw this will amke it into your site, or perhaps another one of your masterful youtube vids? :thumb:
[threadjack] btw pandy, you can NEVER have too many tools [/threadjack]
Quote from: Kerry on October 20, 2007, 06:57:38 PM
Thanks for the feedback, beRto ... it looks like you have a healthy bike! :thumb:
Mine on the other hand, seems to relatively "anemic". :cry: Oh, and I goofed royally on my regulator/rectifier tests, so it looks like my alternator is the main suspect after all. (More on that later.)
So was it the stator or the rotor......? Or Maybe it was Your Flux Capacitor....
Quote from: Jared on October 21, 2007, 05:21:46 AM
Quote from: Kerry on October 20, 2007, 06:57:38 PM
Thanks for the feedback, beRto ... it looks like you have a healthy bike! :thumb:
Mine on the other hand, seems to relatively "anemic". :cry: Oh, and I goofed royally on my regulator/rectifier tests, so it looks like my alternator is the main suspect after all. (More on that later.)
So was it the stator or the rotor......? Or Maybe it was Your Flux Capacitor....
It was the hyperdrive generator. Hes picking one up on Tatooine this Sunday
Quote from: Jared on October 21, 2007, 05:21:46 AMSo was it the stator or the rotor......? Or Maybe it was Your Flux Capacitor....
Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. I haven't gotten to the bottom of the whole problem yet -- I've only done an extended analysis on the regulator/rectifier.
Once I've written that up, I'll get back to diagnosing the low output from the alternator.
Quote from: Kerry on October 15, 2007, 11:27:17 PM
................. the alternator only put out ~62 volts AC compared to the 75V minimum listed in the Haynes manual. .......................
Kerry, the
trouble shooting pdf (http://www.electrosport.com/Images/fault_finding.pdf) at electrosport.com suggests that a minimum of 50V is ok. :cookoo:
:cheers:
John, thanks for reminding me about that troubleshooting flow chart. :kiss3: I'll be sure to use it as I wade through the process.
Speaking of which ... my charging voltage (at 13.49V) seems pretty borderline. On the other hand, the whole thing could turn out to be a temporarily bad connection. But I'd rather not say "whatever!" and just ride the bike before I'm sure. There's nothing like being in the middle of nowhere when you find out that you guessed wrong! :mad:
Quote from: Kerry on October 24, 2007, 10:20:15 AM
John, thanks for reminding me about that troubleshooting flow chart. :kiss3: I'll be sure to use it as I wade through the process.
Speaking of which ... my charging voltage (at 13.49V) seems pretty borderline. On the other hand, the whole thing could turn out to be a temporarily bad connection. But I'd rather not say "whatever!" and just ride the bike before I'm sure. There's nothing like being in the middle of nowhere when you find out that you guessed wrong! :mad:
Are all three AC voltages at the stator equally low?
Just for reference, I'll PM a copy of the flow chart that I tailored for the GS500.
:cheers:
Quote from: John Bates on October 24, 2007, 10:57:50 AMAre all three AC voltages at the stator equally low?
Yep ... within a few volts of each other.
Quote from: John Bates on October 24, 2007, 10:57:50 AMJust for reference, I'll PM a copy of the flow chart that I tailored for the GS500.
Thanks John! I appreciate it.
OK guys (and pandy (http://bbburma.net/Smilies/wave.gif)) ... you are not gonna believe this. Well, maybe you will. :oops:
In my first post, I skipped the part about how the bike had been sitting for 3 weeks ... how my friend and I had ridden through some rain on our 200+ mile daytrip right before that 3-week period ... and how when I opened my toolbag to work on this problem, all of my tools had some rust on them. (http://bbburma.net/Smilies/eek.gif)
Anyway ... so tonight I print out the Electrosport troubleshooting flowchart and take it out to my bike - along with my original regulator/rectifier. Before bolting the R/R back on, I notice the slightest layer of oxidation on some of the connector prongs.
"Hmmm ... Clymer (I think) says something about how these high-voltage connections all need to be in GOOD shape. I wonder what will happen if I clean those connections up a bit and put some dielectric grease on 'em?"
I cut some tiny strips from a piece of 240-grit wet/dry sandpaper, and use my jeweler's screwdriver to push them back and forth along all of the connector blades until they're nice and shiny. Then I apply little dabs of dielectric grease to the blades with the same screwdriver, click the connections together, and bolt the R/R back on.
"I need to check the battery connections too ... but let's see what voltage I get so far."
I start up the bike, rev it to about 3,000 RPM and measure ... 13.81 volts! :thumb: (That's up from 13.49 volts, in case anybody lost track.)
I went ahead and cleaned up the connections at the negative battery post (the positive side was fine) and applied more dielectric grease. But my measurements never really went up from there ... they hovered around 13.75 at various RPMs. Which is good enough for me! (http://bbburma.net/Smilies/headbang.gif) (http://bbburma.net/Smilies/headbang.gif) (http://bbburma.net/Smilies/headbang.gif)
Thanks to everyone who helped me out (and/or indulged me by reading these long posts).
John Bates ... I guess Electrosport may right after all -- about 50VAC being sufficient output for the alternator. (http://bbburma.net/Smilies/dunno_black.gif)
starwalt ... does this mean you're gonna want your R/R unit back? ;)
Quote from: Kerry on October 25, 2007, 06:36:20 PM
OK guys (and pandy (http://bbburma.net/Smilies/wave.gif)) ...
:kiss3:
Quote from: Kerry on October 25, 2007, 06:36:20 PM
I went ahead and cleaned up the connections at the negative battery post (the positive side was fine) and applied more dielectric grease ... Which is good enough for me!
AWESOME news!!!!! Congrats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Quote from: Kerry on October 25, 2007, 06:36:20 PMstarwalt ... does this mean you're gonna want your R/R unit back? ;)
Absolutely not. I think our karmic balance is zero. You now have a spare and I can say that I traded one for a Kodak. ;)
It is gratifying to know your system seems to be running well.
Every connection adds resistance, even if slight. I cannot tell you how many bad connections I have troubleshot over the years. The best ones are the bad fuse holders. Especially if they are on the incoming power. Man they just about have to totally burn up before they are discovered.
Awesome news Kerry!!! O0
DLW
Well, I rode the bike to work today. (All of a mile and a half - the long way! :mad:) Maybe I'll take 'er for a spin up the canyon on the way home ... it feels like everything needs a good "blowing out".
Note to self: Reattach your Digital 5 Function Volt Meter (http://www.bbburma.net/HowTo/TimeVoltageTempGauge_Install/) for the next week or two ... :icon_rolleyes:
[Click for larger image]
(http://www.bbburma.net/HowTo/TimeVoltageTempGauge_Install/Thumbnails/100_2112_Gauge_Test.jpg) (http://www.bbburma.net/HowTo/TimeVoltageTempGauge_Install/100_2112_Gauge_Test.jpg)
My regulator is blown too. :icon_confused:
I made some measurings and followed Clymer instructions to check the regulator, but there are some words really important there:
They make a warning: "These measurings must be taken with the Suzuki Test Tool #xxx, otherwise may be wrong".
As the regulator is not a resistive device, (it is a semiconductor), resistance readings will depend on the tester used, since each tester will send a signal (different from others) through its wires to check the resistance.
But a semiconductor will behave different from a resistance, so resistive readings on semiconductors is not a good thing.
I tested my blown regulator with several testers, and all the gave different readings.
On the other side, it looks like you are worried about your alternator giving "only" 65V. In my opinion, this should be no problem: the regulator will eat all the voltage that the alternator supplies beyond 14.2V, so if your alternator is a but "low", your regulator will be less stressed. If the regulator were constructed in another way (switching regulator, or DC_to_DC converter, or any other flavour of these technologies), a low input might lead to a defective output; but the "classic" regulator in automotive applications is only a "power eater" that will convert all your overflowing current to heat.
I've ordered a new R/R on ebay. While it reachs home, I use the bike recharging the battery each night. Using only the parking lights, I can get about 20miles of use with no problems.
Thanks for the reminder, Marc!
I ended up with a boatload of data, and I wasn't sure how to best relay it in the "How-To" I created in the FAQ forum. But the R/R part of the "How-To" is certainly INaccurate as it stands, so I'd better do something before anyone else gets tripped up.
BTW, if you have a "Diode Test" function on your meter, the [Fault Finding Flow Chart For Motorcycle Charging Systems (http://www.electrosport.com/Images/fault_finding.pdf)] by ElectroSport Industries contains procedures that matched the readings on my (good) R/R unit. Start at the top of page 3 in the PDF. (I also need to add an "optimized" version of the flow chart, created by our own John Bates, to the "Documents" section of my web site.)
More on this testing.
Just replaced my R/R with a 2005_barely_used one and this did not solve my problems.
I measured the output of my alternator @5000RPM
Y1= 78V
Y2= 78V
Y3= 50V
Ouch! looks like alternator stator failure.
Measured resistance: 1ohm for each winding.
Measured short to ground: infinite resistance between each terminal and engine case: no short.
I'll post some resistance measurings and diode testing on the R/Rs i currently own.
Sounds like you have some shorted turns on #3 phase, thats over a 25% difference in resistance and is significant.
Your average multimeter starts to become very inaccurate at much below 2 ohms and an alternator winding resistance per phase can be as low as that of a 6" nail. To identify a sound winding ideally you need to measure and compare the inductance of each phase or you need a Milliohmeter or a "Ductor" to take accurate low resistance readings and then you must compare the differences in phase resistances as a percentage. For example the difference between 0.1 ohms and 0.15 ohms is not much on paper but when you do the sums its actualy 50%! Consider also if there is a breakdown between turns it may only be occuring at operating voltage/current, not the 3/6/9v and negligable current your multimeter operates on. Slightly higher or lower output voltages than stated as normal are common due to manufacturing tolerances, ambient temperature variations, old and weak magnets in the rotor etc and they dont confuse the reg/rect so long as each phase voltage is balanced, its only when there is a significant imbalance between phase voltages that the reg/rect becomes confused and starts running home to mummy.
Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic.
:D :D :D
I just wanted to know if you encountered problems with the low alternator voltage.
Did your battery lasted long after fixing the contacts?
I tested my system today and my output was about 60VAC. :cry: