Hey Guys,
Kerry and I spent a large portion of the day (thanks Kerry!) trying to fix a short on my 1989 GS500 that would basically short the bike out while I rode. What started out as a simple cleaning of the contacts in the starter relay and battery contacts (very dirty) led into a few more frustrating problems:
After we finished cleaning the contacts we connected both of the terminals back to the starter relay, turned on the bike, pressed start, and all we heard was a simple "Click" coming from the starter relay. After awhile we figured that we must have damaged one of the bolts on the relay since one of them happened to freely move up and down several millimeters if you pushed or pulled it - this would cause the magnet in the relay to simply not line up with the two bolts, thereby not completing the circuit in order to actually start the bike. Our only option was to replace to the starter relay - so after a last effort visit to the Suzuki dealer notorious for stocking nothing that begins with the letters "GS", we walked out with a new $40 starter relay!
We got back to Kerry's and started to fit the new starter relay onto the bike. While fastening the positive wire to the relay, the bolt coming on that side of the relay came loose and like the old relay, had several millimeters worth of play in it. These things are FRAGILE. Did we just break the part I spent $40 on in the same ridiculous way we broke the old one?! Well we decided to give it a try anyway and it started right up! Woo hoo! We didn't break it after all! Well at least that's what we thought...
So Kerry and I decided to switch bikes and take a quick ride up beautiful Provo canyon on this gorgeous Saturday. It was great fun! Kerry noted two things that were wrong with my bike during the ride. First, a strange cyclic clicking noise. Second, the bike always seems to surge back and forth while throttle was given to the bike - but pushing in the clutch would temporarily get rid of that problem so he concluded it should be something with the transmission of the bike.
We got back to Kerry's and we noticed that the chain was quite loose so we tightened that up, I took it for a spin around the block and came back and the chain was even MORE lose... I had turned the bike off while we talked about this so we decided to tighten it up even more. When I pressed the start button to pull it into his driveway, we heard that dreaded "CLICK" coming from our BRAND NEW starter relay!!! >:( What is the deal with that relay? We fiddled around with it, got the two lead bolts parallel and electricity to the starter motor. The problem though was that the starter motor would only activate for a fraction of a second and turn off. We decided to bypass the starter relay and momentarily connect the starter motor cord directly to the positive terminal on the battery. Again, this initiated the starter motor but only for a fraction of a second!
It was getting late and we decided we would work on these problems later so we decided to push start the bike so I could get on my way home. Kerry had me put the bike in 2nd gear, he pushed me along, I let the clutch go and we could NOT get the thing started! We tried three times and the bike never even made an attempt to start - the rear tire would just bind up.
In the end we were at a loss, it was getting late, and I couldn't start my bike. I had my brother pick me up and now I'm here posting my story. Any ideas or insight would be awesome. Quite frankly we're just stumped :icon_confused:
IN SHORT:
-Both the new and the old starter relays had the same problem of the loose lead bolts. The new one fixed this problem but only momentarily.
-Something is wrong with the starter motor because we could not push start the bike and it would only activate for a fraction of a second when the starter relay was bypassed.
Again, any insight would be greatly appreciated! I apologize for the very long post.
No need to apologize, you have a complicated problem. ;)
The surging problem could be a heavily worn chain. If the chain has uneven wear its pitch will change along its length and could, in theory, cause a surging feeling. That could also explain the clicking noise, or a "whirrWHIRRwhirrWHIRR" noise while slowly coasting with the engine off and the clutch pulled in. If the chain is going out of spec in 200 miles or less, it definately needs to be replaced.
The starter motor problem is tricky. Kerry is a good troubleshooter so I'm sure he's checked the battery and starter connections. Why the motor would only run for a second or so when shorted to the battery has me stumped. The only thing I can think of is a corroded connection inside the starter motor cover, or a loose or burned brush.
I'm sure Kery will chime in shortly with some thoughts.
Quote from: OPTheory on November 10, 2007, 08:44:22 PM
We got back to Kerry's and we noticed that the chain was quite loose so we tightened that up, I took it for a spin around the block and came back and the chain was even MORE lose
OP ... as I continue to think about this, I keep coming back to the info that I highlighted in RED in your quote.
As you mentioned, we tightened the chain. After your test ride, the chain was even more loose than before, but we checked the axle and it had not moved. I assumed the bike had stopped so that it
happened to expose an even more-worn length of chain than was exposed when we tightened it. But now I'm not so sure....
The fact that the rear wheel would lock up in 2nd gear when we tried to push-start the bike blew me away; I had never seen that happen before. But if tightening the chain "popped" something in the starter motor / gear box / transmission / whatever (so that the starter motor is not only "engaged" but also
locked in position) that would explain the symptoms.
We can partially test the theory by just pulling the front sprocket off the countershaft (to relieve ALL tension from the chain) but I have the feeling that's not going to make any difference. I think something has come loose and gotten itself stuck "in the works". :mad:
Can anyone venture a guess about what could have been "popped" by tightening the chain?
When you tightend the chain, you may have put stress on what was allready a worn bearing, on the front sprockett and its brocken up, or somthing i gues.
Consider this scenario......
I suspect the sprag-clutch could have stuck, the starter-motor been driven from the engine via the idler gear, and the motor/and or gear damaged as a result. If the motor/gear has sized, and the sprag is stuck on it would in effect prevent the whole engine from turning over and make it impossible to push. The motor/gear/sprag being driven could explain the cyclic noise and hesistation.
Thoughts anyone???
Hang on a min.......didnt this happen to Starwalt???
C-mon Doug....tell us your tale :o
Quote from: sledge on November 11, 2007, 07:42:29 AM
Hang on a min.......didnt this happen to Starwalt???
Close but, the initial failure was a seized starter clutch while at speed. The previous owner was doing about 40 mph when it happened. Through the starter gearing it caused the starter motor to zip up to sufficient rpm to cause rotational destruction of the armature and brush assembly (see my avatar).
The starter motor was totally fragged and locked up. This stopped the drive train operation because
two items were broken.
So let me recap to make sure I didn't miss read:
- new starter relay - same problem
- juice staight to motor - same problem
- wheel lock in 2nd gear while push starting
If the starter clutch was seized AND the starter motor was good, the engine would start but the starter motor would still be in the gearing train (and likely screaming for help :o ).
Riding like this would definitely lead to a "Starwalt's Disease" experience.
It will be necessary to remove the starter motor to reduce the variables. I have one I can offer if you don't have an extra. As sledge mentions, I wonder also about your starter clutch but, if bad it should be bad for any gear, not just 2nd and push starting.
Interesting (said with raised eyebrow like Spock).
Quote from: starwalt on November 12, 2007, 02:58:10 PMSo let me recap to make sure I didn't miss read:
- new starter relay - same problem
- juice staight to motor - same problem
- wheel lock in 2nd gear while push starting
That's pretty much correct. There are some more details surrounding the starter relay which I don't think matter here (
OPTheory and or I may start a new thread with general questions about the GS starter relay).
The other points are the kickers - especially the 2nd point. At the end of the day, we were getting some good sparks when connecting the positive battery cable directly to the starter motor cable, but no motion. And there were times that the relay must have been working because we'd start to
smell things if we pushed the starter button too long.
With regards to push starting, I pushed the bike 3 times in a row ("Go Kerry!"(http://bbburma.net/Smilies/Other/woohoo.gif)) and the rear tire would skid
as soon as OPTheory let out the clutch.
Quote from: starwalt on November 12, 2007, 02:58:10 PMInteresting (said with raised eyebrow like Spock).
Indeed!
I do still have a '96 engine in a box. It seized from lack of oil, but the starter motor should still be in good shape ... right?
Quote from: Kerry on November 12, 2007, 04:21:28 PM...still have a '96 engine in a box. It seized from lack of oil, but the starter motor should still be in good shape ... right?
I would think so, but I believe the original failure of my starter clutch may be related to oil loss or loss of pressure. I haven't gotten around to getting the carbs back on that bike.
Yeah, yeah. Flash in the pan energy towards MC wrenching. At least my day jobs systems are running. :laugh:
Well these are certainly interesting problems! I appreciate everyone's suggestions. We'll have to try a few different things to see what's up. Hopefully it's as simple as it can get :) The thing is, if the bike ends up being completely broken, I'm only out $500. ...Insurance wouldn't cover this kind of thing would they? :laugh:
Kerry you and I will need to get back together sometime soon. I'll be in touch soon!
Thanks guys.
OPTheory and I pulled the starter motor tonight. I hooked it to the battery with jumper cables while he stood on the motor to keep it from jumping around . It spun up just fine. :thumb:
So we drained the oil, pulled the left-side cover, and Voila! If anyone would have guessed "goat's syndrome" we would have had a WINNAH...! :icon_confused:
(http://bbburma.net/MiscFotos/A540_0492_OPTheory_GoatsSyndrome_WideShot.jpg)
(http://bbburma.net/MiscFotos/A540_0493_OPTheory_GoatsSyndrome_Rotor.jpg)
(http://bbburma.net/MiscFotos/A540_0495_OPTheory_GoatsSyndrome_Stator.jpg)
We reviewed starwalt's documentation on [removing the rotor bolt (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=13774.msg118598#msg118598)] and [removing the rotor itself (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=13774.msg119164#msg119164)]. I might finally have an excuse to get myself a metric tap-and-die set! :thumb: Has anyone come up with different sure-fire methods (for removing the rotor) in the meantime?
I've got a spare rotor (and even a stator, if I want to lower the risk of a recurrence of goat's). But before we start swapping parts, I'd like to better understand what happened. One minute the bike was gunning up the canyon and back. Shortly afterwards (after tightening the chain twice), the engine would no longer turn. :o
Do OPTheory and I just have impeccable timing :icon_rolleyes: or could we have caused this to happen somehow by overtightening the chain? :mad: His well-worn chain definitely had some lengths that were tighter than others. Maybe the second tightening was on a "loose" spot and there was no wiggle room left when a tighter spot came around? Is it theoretically possible for a really tight drivetrain to displace the crankshaft?
Ain't no way that I want to ruin a second rotor :nono: so I plan to take it slow and figure out the root cause. Any ideas?
Quote from: Kerry on November 28, 2007, 12:42:10 AM
Is it theoretically possible for a really tight [chain] to displace the crankshaft?
dgyver? Anybody?
^^^
That is scarry !
I don't think that overly tight drive chain can transmit force through the meshed gears of transmission and to the crank ,
in this situation gears would fail first I think or their bearings.
I see that this "goat's syndrome" is a recurring condition and hard to diagnose beforehand ,
I wonder how many members had this happen to their GS ?
Agreed.....I would expect the layshaft bearings to fail first if the chain was overtightened and thats assuming the chain itself didnt fail first. I cant see how the stress or indeed any untoward movement could be passed from the output shaft through the meshed gears, the clutch, the primary-gear and into the crank. Have the magnets started to disintergrate or is it the "glue" holding them on thats the problem? I know Suzuki say use a slide-hammer to remove the rotor but I am wary of that technique and prefer to use a puller when possible. All that "shocking" cant be good and I think it could easily loosen the magnet bonding or cause cracking of the magnets themselves. Is the rotor and stator fitted tight and correctly located. Another possiblity could be a worn outter main bearing but I think there would be additional issues if this was the case.
Quote from: sledge on November 29, 2007, 02:17:39 PMI cant see how the stress or indeed any untoward movement could be passed from the output shaft through the meshed gears, the clutch, the primary-gear and into the crank.
That's pretty much what I was thinking, but this IS an '89 with who-knows-how-many miles on it (no odometer). I guess I'm wondering whether things could have gotten "loose" enough all along the power transmission path that a really tight chain could nudge the crankshaft just a bit. I don't think it would take that much of a shift to have the rotor magnets start contacting the stator assembly. I just haven't seen the
inside of enough GS500s to have experience with this sort of thing.
Quote from: sledge on November 29, 2007, 02:17:39 PMHave the magnets started to disintergrate or is it the "glue" holding them on thats the problem? I know Suzuki say use a slide-hammer to remove the rotor but I am wary of that technique and prefer to use a puller when possible. All that "shocking" cant be good and I think it could easily loosen the magnet bonding or cause cracking of the magnets themselves.
Take a close look at the top of the 3rd photo earlier in the thread. I figured the damage stood out well enough that I didn't need to add "circles and arrows". ;) Let's just say that I'm not too worried about the method we use to get the old rotor off. :icon_rolleyes: I couldn't say whether the magnet "glue" decided to give up the ghost at the moment in question, but I
can say that some sort of heavy-duty
contact sport went on behind that left-side cover all of a sudden.
Quote from: sledge on November 29, 2007, 02:17:39 PMIs the rotor and stator fitted tight and correctly located.
Again, this is an '89 that was running fine RIGHT before the two chain tightenings.
* After some electrical work, I rode the bike 3 or 4 miles up the canyon and back.
* We tightened the VERY loose chain
*
OPTheory went for a 2-block spin
* I noticed that the chain was just as loose as before (and the rear wheel had
NOT moved :o) so we tightened it again.
* Right after that, the starter motor wouldn't turn. We couldn't even push
start the bike because the rear wheel locked up whenever
OPTheory let out the clutch.
I bet we just happened to check a "medium" loose span the first time, and the "most" loose span the second time. Tricky creatures, these bikes. :icon_confused:
Well just for clarification the bike has about 14,000 miles on it (the old speedo broke). When I had the bike running, every now and then, especially while idling I'd hear a somewhat loud "CLICK" coming from the left side of the engine which seemed to be right where the alternator was located. Perhaps it's something else that was causing the noise but it's just a thought. I'm guessing the magnets wouldn't have gotten far into the workings of the engine because I only took for a two-block spin before it stopped working AND there was absolutely nothing on my magnetic oil plug.
As for goat's syndrome - I've been looking around the forum and can't quite seem to put my finger on the cause. I found three cases of it happening - Goat, Srinath and se7enty7. In Goat's and 7's case, they had dropped their bikes on the left side which I'd assume would bend part of the casing and possibly move that stator closer to the magnets. Judging from the scratches on both sides of my engine, it's been dropped before. Perhaps it's a case of replacing the magnets, stator, and even the side casing.
But if anyone has any ideas - please let us know! :)
That idea makes a lot of sense, the clearance (or airgap) between the stator poles and the rotor is minimal and If the casing has become distorted in the past following a drop the rotor could easily contact the stator while in operation. Another possibilty could be that the crank is bent slightly where the rotor sits and causing the rotor to run-out although I cant see how it could happen in normal operation and you could probably expect higher than normal vibration if this was the case.....any signs of roadrash or impact damage on the casing? Try placing it on a sheet of glass and see if there are any gaps around the edges.
The rotor could be checked for runout by setting up a DI/DTI on the outside edge of the rotor and slowly turning the engine over while looking for a significant deviation on the dial.....these are DI/DTIs and will indicate deflections as low as 0.001" or 0.005mm. If you can find or borrow one its worth doing.
http://www.lawson-his.co.uk/scripts/products.php?cat=Dial%20Indicators
Its difficult to check for an even airgap when the case is fitted as there is no direct access. You could cover the magnets in Engineers-blue or heavy black marker pen, then run the engine, if there is any contact it will wear off in the area where its touching.
Hey OpTheory ... I actually have a dial indicator (and a magnetic stand for it) still in the box. If you'd like to do a runout test on the crankshaft / rotor bucket, we should be set.
A very tight chain will more than likely ... break.
Think about it, the counter shaft mates to chain. That countershaft is heavily strengthened cos it is built with full power output in mind. That will make the top part of the chain very very very tight. I dont believe you can set the chain to be any tighter than that. I am dealing with this exact scenario in my seca. The cain is f^(ed up and very very tight in 1 spot. And its not doing much more than make one sickening noise. I believe its death is near.
But the transmission shafts then mate through the clutch basket to the crank shaft. If the countershaft were to even move rear ward, first you'd start seeing oil come pouring out from the case right there, then, it will start to disengage from the shaft in front of it. That will be where it stops. That set of gears will never get pulled back and forget the crankshaft. Its in no way even in the same part of crankcases.
Cool.
Srinath.
mark me down as a victim. but i beleive mine was due to a PO dropping bike on the left side. i replaced stator, and changed the oil in 500 mile incrimints to make sure there was nothing damaged that was circulating in engine
WARNING: OLD THREAD RESURRECTION AHEAD!
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"It's
deja vu all over again..."
First, a little background:
- Last September I went on my longest (GS500) trip ever - to attend family reunions in Kentucky and Ohio.
- After getting home, the bike sat (in my shed) for a few weeks.
- In November I rode 100 miles one weekend, then neglected to refill the tank. That was my last ride of the year.
- When Spring came, I tried to start the bike a couple times (April, May, etc). It would turn over but wouldn't start. I suspected "old fuel".
- On Tuesday (2 days ago) I finally went through the carbs and fuel hoses. Didn't find anything that would keep the bike from starting.
- Last night I checked various electrical connections. I found a signal generator wire loose in its connector (which I replaced) and used tiny strips of fine sandpaper to shine up several blade-type connectors.
- THE BIKE STARTED UP! :woohoo: (Never underestimate the importance of clean electrical connections!)
At this point I remounted the gas tank and seat, then got out my dying-of-loneliness riding gear and got ready for a test ride. I got on the bike, rolled it forward to drop it off the centerstand, and hit the Start button.
ALL I GOT (over and over) was A CLICK and the sound of a partial rotation of the engine. :o
What the? The bike was JUST running ... what could have happened? (It's not a battery problem; I hooked up an extra car battery just in case, but no difference.)
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I sat and thought things through, and all I could come up with was the fact that I had
dropped the bike off the centerstand, which would have introduced a sudden tension from the drive chain ... very similar to what happened to
OPTheory's bike in this old thread.
So much for the 1,000 trip I was hoping to start on tomorrow.... :icon_sad:
Tonight or this weekend I'll be draining the oil and pulling the left side cover ... expecting to find broken bits of alternator magnet causing a blockage. (ie, advanced
goat's syndrome) I hope I'm wrong, and that it's something less sinister. >:(