I have only been riding since July so am in need of some help diagnosing my trans. issue.
I bought a 2002 GS back in July; seemed in good shape with high milage (22K) and the price was right. All I have done is replaced the spark plugs, changed the oil and adjusted the idle.
A couple of times over te past month I have had trouble going into 1st gear from Neutral at a stop light. I have to wait patiently, than try again. eventually it slips in with hesitation.
When staring from a dead stop I rarely have an issue, but when the above problem occurs it seems to slip out of 1st gear when I start and into 4th or so. the bike revs very low as if if i was starting in 4th gear. I can not rev the RPMs or accelerate as normal. The bike still shifts gears and i can get to a safe place to stop, but i have not instant power.
Do I have a chipped or dropped gear?
any help is much appreciated.
the hard time between neutral and 1st is fairly common.
the other stuff... no idea.
It should be difficult from neutral TO first not the other way round. Should go into first easily from neutral.
Quote from: Kasumi on November 23, 2007, 02:17:41 PM
It should be difficult from neutral TO first not the other way round. Should go into first easily from neutral.
is it just me, or is that contradicting?
it is. But i know what he means.
Still curious about the other issue.
Hi brown,
In regads to your shifting "trouble", that's normal. Because the bike has a wet clutch, it acts like a viscous coupling when the oil is cold and thick. This keeps the transmission input shaft turning slowly, allowing the dogs to easily engage.
As the engine comes up to operating temperature the oil thins. The clutch may no longer act as a viscous coupling and the input shaft may stop turning. Sometimes the dogs are aligned when the shaft stops, sometimes not. When they're not aligned you experience the "impossible to shift down to first" problem.
The solution is very simple. If it won't shift into first, let the clutch all the way out for a second, then pull it in and simultaneously tap the shifter again. The input shaft will still be spinning when you tap the shifter and will "find" first.
A word of warning: NEVER and I mean N-E-V-E-R shift to neutral when stopped at a light, intersection, driveway, etc. Always be in first and looking all around you (especially directly behind). Always have an escape route. If a car behind you fails to stop you have only a second or two to get out of the way. You don't want to be spending that time fiddling with finding first! ;)
Slipping out of first may be related to not being able to find it in the first place. If first was hard to find, the dogs may not have completely engaged. This can cause the bike to slip out of gear. Also known as Lazy Left Toe, it's possible to find false neutrals all over the GS transmission if you don't have a positive shifting technique. I haven't experienced a 1-4 shift, but I did get a 2-4 one night when I was tired and on my way home.
If you're not familiar with preloading the shifter before clutching, we'll go there next.
GeeP,
THANKS for the information. I will try that next time I am out. I appreciate your tip about neutral at lights and the such. I find it hard/annoying to hold the clutch in for two or three minutes at the long lights during rush hour but I do try to stay in gear until everything is stacked up and stationary around me. I really appreciate the reminder though! I will keep it in mind.
I took the MSF course but do not recall "reloading" on the docket. Can you give me some insight so I cna improve my ride?
thanks again for all of your help.
Quote from: TragicImage on November 23, 2007, 02:45:02 PM
Quote from: Kasumi on November 23, 2007, 02:17:41 PM
It should be difficult from neutral TO first not the other way round. Should go into first easily from neutral.
is it just me, or is that contradicting?
Sorry sorry i got confused.... it should not be difficult to go from neutral to first gear. It SHOULD be difficult to go from 1st to neutral. sorry guys
preloading the shifter before shifts, is pretty much just holding the shifter with your toe like you're going to shift lightly applying pressure so taht when you pull the clutch in, your shift is instant and seamless.
I'd try a good 10-40 motorcycle specific oil.I had trans and clutch problems until I stopped using car oils and started using mc oils.Did you change the oil filter?May help.
Quote from: Kasumi on November 23, 2007, 04:50:25 PM
Quote from: TragicImage on November 23, 2007, 02:45:02 PM
Quote from: Kasumi on November 23, 2007, 02:17:41 PM
It should be difficult from neutral TO first not the other way round. Should go into first easily from neutral.
is it just me, or is that contradicting?
Sorry sorry i got confused.... it should not be difficult to go from neutral to first gear. It SHOULD be difficult to go from 1st to neutral. sorry guys
wait, shouldn't it be the opposite? shifting from neutral to first you have to align the mechanism which sometimes requires to move the bike forward. shifting
to neutral just takes a small tap :dunno_white:
I changed the oil and oil filter when I got the bike using cycle specific oil
New rider break-in period? Sounds like the OP is attempting to downshift through too many gears at a standing stop and is opening up a false neutral. OP should shift down to at least 2nd gear before rolling to a stop, then true neutral will be just a half-tap away. :cheers:
I agree with the above and suspect the OP is selecting the `wrong` neutral when stopping and attempting to move off in a high gear. I cant see how the bike can jump straight from 1st to 4th even if the selecter mechanism was faulty. Modern bike gearboxes are sequential and you cannot miss gears like you can in a car.
Quote from: CndnMax on November 23, 2007, 07:57:40 PM
Quote from: Kasumi on November 23, 2007, 04:50:25 PM
Quote from: TragicImage on November 23, 2007, 02:45:02 PM
Quote from: Kasumi on November 23, 2007, 02:17:41 PM
It should be difficult from neutral TO first not the other way round. Should go into first easily from neutral.
is it just me, or is that contradicting?
Sorry sorry i got confused.... it should not be difficult to go from neutral to first gear. It SHOULD be difficult to go from 1st to neutral. sorry guys
wait, shouldn't it be the opposite? shifting from neutral to first you have to align the mechanism which sometimes requires to move the bike forward. shifting to neutral just takes a small tap :dunno_white:
No neutral is particularly harder to find than 1st purposefully. So as to make it more difficult to shift into it by accident. Some bikes this works on better than others. However if you have a POSITIVE shift movement from neutral to 1st it should go easily, When you get on your bike and start it and tap it into 1st if you look down you will see all the chain wobble as it catches into gear. No matter what position your in if you have the engine running it should be able to go into 1st easily. Sometimes with going from 1st to neutral you have to rock the bike but not usually from neutral to 1st. Thats in my experience on the bikes ive ridden.
The answer is simple.......Just make sure the green light is on :laugh:
Quote from: brown.rw on November 23, 2007, 04:08:33 PM
I took the MSF course but do not recall "reloading" on the docket. Can you give me some insight so I cna improve my ride?
Sure!
Preloading the shifter wasn't covered in the MSF, as it is a basic course designed to get you up and functional on a bike. However, it's very easy to learn.
First, learn to limit the travel of your clutch lever. With the clutch lever properly adjusted you should be able to completely disengage the clutch with about 1/3rd to 1/2 of the lever travel. Pulling it all the way to the bars is not required and will mess up your timing. You can limit the travel one of two ways. Either use your ring and pinky finger behind the lever and your middle and index fingers to actuate the lever or, develop a muscle memory for "halfway" and use however many fingers you like. (I use four fingers on the lever and a "memory" for about 1/3 to 1/4 travel.)
Now for the shift. Let's say you've just taken off from a light and you're getting ready for second. Put your toe under the shift lever and gently apply pressure. Feel the slack come out of the shift mechanism? Now, gently apply pressure to your clutch lever. Feel the slack come out of the clutch mechanism? In one smooth motion, pull the clutch halfway in as you flick your wrist to close the throttle and feel the shift lever snick up a gear. Let the clutch out just as quickly as you pulled it in while coming back into the throttle. If the clutch engagement was a little jerky, adjust your timing or the amount you pull the clutch in or the timing of your throttle. The condition of your clutch cable and lever position can make a big difference in how smooth the shift is. If you're doing it correctly you'll wonder if you've actually changed gears. ;)
Downshifting is similar, but requires throttle "blipping". This gets a little more complicated. It REALLY helps if your bike has a loud enough exhaust so you can hear what speed the engine is turning though your earplugs.
Preload the shifter in the down position this time an preload the clutch lever to take out the mechanical slack as before. Now, in one smooth motion:
1)Snap the throttle closed with your right hand and pull in the clutch.
2)Feel the shifter snick down one gear.
3)Roll back into the throttle with the clutch still pulled in. This is called blipping, the purpose is to match the engine speed to the new (higher) transmission input shaft speed.
4)Ease the clutch out.
Speed isn't as important to being smooth on the downshift, mainly because you have control over the engine RPM. Just keep the throttle steady until the clutch is all the way out.
Rev matching takes a lot of practice. Mainly, you need to learn what the bike sounds like at different speeds and RPM's. That's just a matter of riding. Also, it helps to set up a rhythm.
Yeah Sledge, Green does not mean GO! :icon_mrgreen:
Thanks for the quick lesson.
I will give all of this a try tomorrow when i get home from vacation. The N light is always on when I am in neutral and I always downshift when slowing down so I am in a power gear just in case. Hearing the exhaust is not problem, the V&H makes it quite easy.
I am not sure if it is a 1st to 4th slip, just felt something like that. If I continue to have issues I will let you all know.
As a side note about teh ear plugs...How does having speakers/ear buds in the hemet affect the ride? I am thinking about down the road when I am a better more experienced rider, but I see people riding around all the time (those with helmets) using ipods and the such. I know you can buy helmets with the hookup, so I am just curious about opinions.
Listening to music is fine but you need to be aware that you will use your hearing to help you to ride the bike, listening for cars around you, other bikes, screeching brakes and the like you need it to be able to ride. I would NEVER suggest having both ear buds in at once while riding, simply because if your listening on your earbuds in an already reduced sound environment you will not hear anything else other than the music and you will not be aware of the things around you. I have however on longer journeys' worn one earbud and one ear plug. This allows me to hear the music and still hear whats going on around me out of the non music side.
To be quite honest its a PITA. I wouldn't really recommend it at all if your driving in cities or towns because you really do need to be aware of traffic, if your out in the country then i suppose the sound isn't so much the problem but it can get distracting if your concentrating on riding through twisties and thinking about your technique. If i listen to music it is only ever on long journeys to break the monotony of listening to the exhaust on the motorways (where you can't hear other traffic really anyway).
Another thing is to be able to hear the music over the bike engine traffic and wind noise you need the volume up high but when you stop at a traffic light its too loud, its very very difficult to adjust the volume with all your gloves on and the ipod tucked away in a pocket, also your stuck listening to the same music and can't skip a track easy, you've got wires going everywhere you have to route in your jackets and helmet and such.
I just think its way more effort than its worth, unless your going to be on the bike for a long time on a long journey where you need some "company" to pass your time then its just too much effort. Plus im quite happy listening to my exhaust tone and singing songs to myself in my head :icon_mrgreen:
Geep?
I am gonna tell you a story about a pal of mine from the bike club.
About 5 years his 600 bandit developed a shift-fault, it would not always select 1st from neutral and needed 4 or 5 attempts to go in and then it would grind and sometimes jump out. He talked about it at club meetings and followed the usual suggestions...adjust clutch, change oil etc.
He is a competent guy and knows what he is doing and in the end he decided to bite the bullet and remove and dismantle the engine over the winter in an attempt to bottom the problem.
He rang me one weekend and told me the engine was apart and despite his best efforts he couldn't find anything that might cause a shift problem...ie. worn/bent selector forks, damaged engagement dogs, missing teeth etc etc. He went on to ask if he could borrow my Micrometers, Verniers, DTI, v-blocks etc to check the gearbox parts against service limits. I said sure and took them all round the next day.
I took my kit round and he asked me if I would stay and double check his readings, which I was happy to do......we found.....nothing! every single component was within service limits. He had no option but to reassemble the engine but took the opportunity to replace a few gaskets, bearings and seals etc.
I ran into him a few weeks later and he took great delight in telling me he had found the problem and rectified it........when he was refitting the engine he discovered the shift lever was fouling on the belly-pan fairing, this was restricting the levers downward travel and preventing 1st gear from fully engaging. Seems the shift problem started around the time he refitted the fairing after cleaning the bike.......DOH!..... So what ended up as a 30 second no-cost fix, took him about 20 hours and £200+
I am sure there is a moral in there somewhere :laugh:
Lol i know the moral of this story.
If something breaks or isn't working fix it right then and there! Don't just think oh il look at it in a few weeks when ive got this and this done, because by then you will have forgotton what the hell you did which made it break or stop working!
Im learning this moral right at the minute with my car...Engine malfunction warning light came up but engine is running sweet as a nut... methinks argh too busy i don't want to know whats wrong with my car its going to be too expensive to fix an electrical malfunction in a modern car.... 2 weeks later airbag failure warning light :o - now i know theres no way to test that the airbag is going to work :o :o. Now though i can't think what the hell happened the day the engine malfunction light came up.... car goes to garage on thursday to have fault codes read. B£$(*%)D f%$king ELECTRONIC CRAP ARGHHH!
If there is one wonderful thing about teaching at a new high school is having access to the shop and all of its toys, including the computer which reads all of those horrid error codes.
Quote from: brown.rw on November 24, 2007, 09:20:01 AM
If there is one wonderful thing about teaching at a new high school is having access to the shop and all of its toys, including the computer which reads all of those horrid error codes.
I would love to have that at my disposal, then i could work on my car myself, i hate it ive always had bikes and diagnosed and fixed every problem on my own and sourced my own parts. Now i have to leave my car in the hands of someone who could quite possible rip me off because i don't know them and don't have the resources to diagnose the problem myself.
I could spend a fortune and buy the diagnostic equipment off ebay but then id be out either way.
>Kasumi:
As for your car issue, I remember you looking some time ago at a supermini like mine on eBay.
Did you end up buying that?
If so, the engine light may mean nothing. I used to have an engine diagnostic light come out once or twice on my old one (now gone), but it was nothing to worry about. :thumb:
In the end i bought a 2003 53' plate Fiat Punto Sporting 1.4 16v. Light metallic blue.
Car was immaculate inside, had a small dent from something falling on it on the front drivers side wheel arch panel (near bonnet lid) but it will push out with my thumb if i can be bothered to get to it (its not serious) and a small scuff from a curb on the passenger side front body work but you can't see it unless you get down on ur knees so im not fussed about that, plus i may repaint it one day.
However mechanically she ran perfectly, i must have put on 500 miles before i got the warning light come up, it doesn't got away it warns me everytime i start the car, however it isn't a warning which requires you to sorta stop using the car its just telling you something isnt functioning at 100% i thought maybe injectors so ive been running injector cleaner in the fuel but no luck there, but the engine runs fine and no difference in fuel consumption since the light came on so i can't think its anything serious its just a sensor failure somewhere so i was leaving it till i had the funds to take it to a garage a risk getting ripped off for something but the airbag light has come on now, and i have no way to check that it is actually going to work in an accident so i can't risk driving it for weeks and weeks until i take it to get fixed i just have to bite the bullet. Im hoping to find an independant garage through a good friend who i can trust to do the work.
I miss my bike so badly i hate having to rely on other people to fix it because of the complex electronics technology, i mean even if i found a problem and fixed it i would have to take it into a garage and pay to have all the fault codes read and reset. Plus these big dealerships don't care if they lose your buisness so they have no problem risking selling you parts and hours of labour you dont need (plus labor been super high from main dealers) so im trying to find an independant guy who really will value my custom and hope i go back in the future and thus no rip me off.
^^^^^^^^^^
Ok, so it's not that same you spotted on eBay, I wonder...
'03, 1.4 litre...it has to be Mark II facelift, with the 100-ish hp 1.4 Fire engine. right?
I don't know about engine/airbag related failures, maybe I can take a look on the Web and try and see if this is a known/serious issue on these cars.
Above all, they're reputed as reliable little cars. Finish has still to be improved (they're not VW's, after all) but engine and electronics I don't think are likely to let you down. :thumb:
The only known-to-me problem about the "Fire" engine family is the head gasket, it may blow off after 100000 kms or so (60000-ish mi). Experienced it on my former one (1200 8-valves 60 hp) , it's a common flaw of theirs.
I hope that story won't repeat itself on my other one, my current transportation (same 1200 but 16v 80 hp).
Hopefully too, things may have changed on your 1.4 engine. Just be careful and don't flatfoot the gas pedal till the water temp needle leaves the C. :icon_mrgreen:
(Curious how on a bike model-specific forum we have a different bike but share the (almost) same (uncommon) car... :icon_mrgreen: hehe)
:cheers:
Hehe. Its very similar to the one i saw on ebay i think (cant remember what i showed you)
I got the mark III the one before they fased them all out for the new style grande punto.
Yep 1.4 16v 100hp exactly.
Im reasonably impressed with the finish, most things look well cared for etc... the plastic trim in the cabin looks a little cheap in some places but its ok im more in it for the driving experience. I would be able to forgive the downfalls such as slightly poor feedback through the steering wheel and quality (possibly) if it ran right. I bought a car for the winter so i could get to where i wanted to be quick and easy and not risk wrecking my zxr in an icy crash but so far the car is just annoying me. I always defended everything about riding and one big thing was it was so much cheaper to ride than to drive regardless of what everyone said to me about the money i spend on tyres on my bike and stuff but in this one incident im spending a fortune on my car already, plus what i forked out for ridiculous insurance!!!!! I payed £300 for TPFT on a motorcycle capable of doing 0-60 in the blink of an eye and go all the way up to 150mph, yet im paying $1500 for TPFT ( i can't afford full comp even though i want it on my expensive car) for a car which does 0-60 in a reasonable time and goes to 130mph given a long period of streight road. (or nearly the whole airfield where i tested it lol. It makes no real sense to me (i know the logic behind it) wish it was cheaper! Just want my car fixed then id be happy without forking out for alot of expensive work that i could probably do myself if i had the resources.
It's the same old story with insurance companies...
Few 400 cc bikes --> fewer accidents --> lower insurance prices
MANY more 100 hp hot-hatches --> MANY more young drunk reckless drivers --> MANY more accidents --> MUCH higher insurance prices. (It works the same here, too)
BTW, I'd say not to worry about the warning lights coming on while you drive. It should be an easy and known-by-mechanics fix, just a faulty connection somewhere or a CPU reset needed for some trivial reason. Keep us informed. :thumb:
Back to topic (:icon_mrgreen:) I'd agree with what many folks said. It should be nothing major, maybe the OP fell by hazard into some false neutral somewhere, I'm no mechanic but I heard about this many times, and also about N being hard to find during a stop.
I fell into false neutral a very few times maybe, but I know it can happen, especially when being a new rider (like I am :oops: :icon_mrgreen:)..sometimes it's hard to remember what gear we're into at a given time. I am doubtful, too, about the possibility of being able to jump from 1st, say, to 3rd on a motorcycle gearshift. :icon_confused:
And I'm also respectfully skeptical about 1st to 4th...I'm pretty sure my GS would stall altogether If I tried to do that :o
As sledge suggests, troubleshoot simple things first :icon_mrgreen: :thumb: :cheers: