Here's a look at my bike during start up. It's the only time that that much smoke comes out the exhaust. I think a little is coming out once it's warmed up but it's next to invisible once warmed up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYJLU4DCafI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYJLU4DCafI)
Pretty sure this isn't normal. I planning on buying new gaskets all around because I have a slight oil leaking problem as well. Just wondering what I should do to cut down on the amount of oil the bike is burning?
question, year, and miles on it?, im thinkin you got ring probs. THAT is NOT normal :nono:. the head, cyls and lower end expand in 3 stages. or as three seperate pieces. so im thinkin if you dont see it as much, prolly as it heats up and when it does, the loose tolerances are closing. thats my opinion. i may be wrong, but dmn thats a lot of smokage :o
As a long time member of the JD Powers staff, I'd like to point out this is not an issue with your new Chevrolet Product. It may seem like there is a smoke screen, you may even taste something similar to burning oil, but it is not, i repeat, NOT your 2 year old chevrolet. There is absolutely nothing wrong with american made autos. I've been paid alot of money to prove this point over and over again, and I'm quite certain it's just your imagination. Pay no attention to the illusion. I AM NOT A PAID SHILL !
Oh, wait, that's coming from your gs ? Nevermind.
Ya man, it's not good. Guess it's time for a tear down and ring job + incidentals.
:(
Could be valve guides/seals also , if you're planning to replace all the gaskets, including cylinder head gasket ,might as well do top end overhaul
What would I need to do to do a top end over haul. BTW, Bike is a '90 and the engine is a '00. The PO replaced the engine after he had some cam issues on the '90 and eventially blew the engine I think.
holy crap man, that thing never smoked like that at all. if i let it sit for a day or 2 it would smoke a little for about 3 seconds or less. if i rode it everyday which i usually did, it smoked for a second or so. the first engine i had did the same thing so i assumed it was normal. according to the guy i bought the engine from it was completely rebuilt. bike should have only had 2500 miles or so on it when i sold it to you.
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?action=profile;u=45 (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?action=profile;u=45)
Well it's started up like that everytime I've started it up. So I don't know what would have caused that in such a short period of time. Hopefully replacing all the gaskets and maybe doing some work on the top end will fix this problem.
what kinda oil u puttin in it?
I don't remember. I check on here before buying any and also in my zuki manual. So it should have been the correct oil. What did you usually put in it...cause I'm sure by now it could use a little bit more.
i used castrol 10w-40. i don't know if oil weights would have anything to do with it smoking or not. my first gs the po used 20w-50, so i just used it, in the second the po told me he used 10w-40, so thats what i stuck to. something happened to make it start smokin that bad, i was just trying to think of the simple things first. does it smoke like that every day you start it? an how many day interval was it for when u last started it that day.
I get a little smoke on start up after it's sat a couple days,but goes away in just a few minutes.My guess is valve seals/guides,head gasket,or rings.Since you'll have to pull the head to service it,pull the cylinder also.You can get a cheap piston ring compressor at an parts store.Dissassembly and reassembly will cost about $300.If you don't fell you can do it,ask a friend that can or a member from here.
It smokes that way everytime I start it up. I had riding the bike the day before this video was shot. It doesn't smoke that bad when I'm riding. I can't see any smoke while riding. Just start up. I'll be doing it myself with the help of a friend that knows about bikes so I should be good. I'll look into valve seals/guides and rings. Already replacing all the gaskets to hopefully fix a slight oil leaking problem I have as well. Thanks for the advice guys.
New sleeves and rings are in order by the looks of it.
First you should check compression to see how bad things are , you can determine if the rings are bad or the valves ( or both :icon_confused: )
normal compression: 142-199psi (142 is the minimum for both cyls , 114 is the minimum for one , 28psi is max difference between two cyls)
After initial check of both cylinders ,squirt some viscous oil into the chamber and repeat the check, if compression has risen,then rings are to blame,
if stayed the same ,it's the valves.
Here's the procedure for cars but it's the same for bikes:
http://www.aa1car.com/library/compression.htm (http://www.aa1car.com/library/compression.htm)
It's easy to do and you'll know more or less what's going on :thumb:
What you need for a top end overhaul can vary greatly depending on whats going on. I did mine about a year ago:
Replaced rings
head was warped so had the head resurfaced
replaced all valves
had all valves re seated
cylinders and pistons were still within spec so i didnt have to do anything there
deglazed cylinders
new gaskets all around
Do what affschnozel said so that you can find out where the problem is
Cool...thanks guys. I'll make sure to look over this post once I get home and go through all these steps you've adviced. Hopefully this all works out.
the difference in smoke color can also be an indicator...It looks likes yours has a darker tint to it, meaning moost likely oil burning...given 00 motor, and 20k miles? rings are probably bad, usually if the rings wear out the valves do to/ or the valve seats.
Let us know the compression, If its just low all accross the board then its the rings. If it varies between cyl. then its a valve issue....Like someone said squirt a dabble of oil down there after a "dry" test and see how much more it seals with the oil down there.....If substantial then 100% ring problem, depending on what you want/ budget, and the cyl. measurements you might get away with a honing and new rings...If not you'll have to bore it out and get the next up pistons....it'll be all new inside, don't forget break-in...
Don't forget bearings while the cases are apart, their cheeeep insurance.
Also if it was me I'd go the whole distance with new valves too. If not in 10k you'll probably be opening it up again...
Ok, so I've bought a gasket kit for the engine. Hopefully it comes with valve seals if not I'll order them separate. Also going to go ahead and replace the rings anyway. Tell me more about these bearings though.
Quoteand 20k miles?
i don't think that engine had anywhere close to that.
it was a ball park figure for the 20k miles. a 2000 model, 3k miles a year = 21k miles......Regardless it depends on "usage" 21k grandma miles is going to be different than 21k racing miles(if it goes that long)
Bearings, they come in a package of two, upper and lower. Basicly they set on the cases and the crank shaft spins on them, or the connecting rod, or counter balancer, or main shaft of the tranny. The first letter of the engine serial number will tell you want color you need. (colors are different sizes, for different years, for different manufacturing facilities etc..) There like $6 for a pair
Even before that If your considering a re-build
Get a quality machine shop to MEASURE:
the roundness of the cylinder walls
(unless you have some scoring in which you have to bore it anways so it will be perfectly shaped)
The crank and cams journal diameters (compare to ware tolerances (now you wish you had that manual))
+ the crank's balance
The pistons and pin diameters and free play as well....JUST get a manual for this part, they list all the ware specs and tolerances. YOU don't want to put a used part into a perfectly good/new engine
Lastley for the top end they can usually measure the head surface, and valve seats in their "package" deal service. If they don't, well then that's why they give you a warranty.
I think honing the cylinder is about $65 a cylinder. If your scratched or scored to deep then a bore will cost you about double that + the cost of new pistons....valves: intakes are $14 a piece and exhaust are $30ish...I think + springs and hardware I REPEAT I REPEAT do not re-use the head bolts, they stretch after one use, and will warp the head surface if you re-use them. Grab a motor seal kit and your set. Even if you purchase the parts you can save quite a bit thanks to the internet, alls your really paying the shop for is labor, they charge arms and legs for parts.......Hardest part is finding a shop or machining facility that will do motorcycles. You could get the cyl. bored before having a motorcycle shop assemble your motor. The 3 dealer ships around me to don't do motorcycle boring, so I had to call around for the auto machine shops.
I'm guessing a re-furbish motor (honing) will be about $600 or less total! -that pretty good, if your friendly with a shop they might even give you a discount because its their "off season" and a motor is a good solid day's work for them....never know till you ask
If you go another "used" motor swap, you might save $100, but how long will it last?
From your other post sounds like your painting everything too. So you have time on your side.
O you can paint the motor cases too (use high temp paint) and really have a stand-out GS500. I found painting just the little cyl. fins black makes it look killer custom
Quote from: Prafeston on December 04, 2007, 06:37:03 PM
Ok, so I've bought a gasket kit for the engine. Hopefully it comes with valve seals if not I'll order them separate. Also going to go ahead and replace the rings anyway. Tell me more about these bearings though.
no valve seals in the kit....the valve seat on to the cylinder head...after alot of "abuse" they cup and don't seal that well, allowing oil and stuff to drip down into the combustion chamber and that could lead to the oil smoke you are burning....But if the rings are worn as well the oil comes into the combustion chamber the other way (splashes up in there) and you get the same effect. A member Kerry had a great way to test the valve seals with the engine apart. Take off the cams, pour kerosene in the head and come back in a few hours and see if the level dropped any or if your work space has kerosene all over it. Its hard to measure valve seal with the engine together, because of to many variables, What a compression test shows is just a yes/no they seal, the drip (kerosene) method shows the extent of the leakage.
all that aside tho I really think its the valves....do a compression test ASAP before tearing it apart, and check the valve clearances too before you begin pulling the motor apart. You said it gets better as the engine warms up???? right???? which leads me to think that the valves leak and when the engine sits the oil drips in, which is why on start up it smokes. That doesn't count tho if its cold outside, the engine will smoke regardless because of water vapor and using the choke. Usually valves cup from excessive high revs, in which case if the oil hasn't been changed the rings take quite a bit of a beating as well. The poor man tho would fix the top end and run a compression restore addative to the oil and be happy at that, 8)
I changed the oil upon buying the bike. So the rings shouldn't be getting an excessive beating from that. I don't have 600 dollars sitting around for boring and restoring of the cyls. How much do new seals and rings cost?
Also how do I do a compression test?
You really want to find out where the problem is before you start buying parts.
To do a compression test you need a compression tester. I got mine at walmart.
Warm up your engine first, then do the test... there should be instructions that come with the tester. Also make sure that you do the test with the throttle all the way open.
How much was the compression tester...I'm a cheap skate!
20 bucks maybe. Not much.
Cool might do that. If valves seals and rings aren't too bad I may just replace them both while I'm at it.
Tested the compression the other day. Both cylinders were topping out at 110 psi. I looked in the manual and it looked as if that was a little low.
I might add that I couldn't start my bike. I hadn't ridden it in a little over 2 weeks and it would turn over but not start. We put a battery starter on it while testing. I wasn't able to have the engine warmed up before doing the compression test. Will that have an effect? What should my steps be now?
Did you do the oil test like the other guys recommended?
Put some oil in the cylinders and retest to see if it increases.
No I didn't do the oil test I'll do that when I get back i guess.
The goal of the oil test is to let you know if it's the rings or something else.
This, you want to know, otherwise you'll end up doing 2,3,4 times the work.
If the oil increases compression significantly, its the rings/pistons/cylinders (somewhere in there). If it doesnt change very much, it's the valves.
Once you know where the problem is, you can get down to business.
aye if it comes down to doin a rebuild, id be inclined to say, find a used engine here at teh site, and swap em out
Should I retest with the engine warm and the throttle open? Will it be that much of a difference?
A compression test should always be done with the engine hot , the throttle wide open, and a good battery to crank it over. ;)
110 is about what I'd expect from a cold engine that had been sitting several weeks and a dead battery.
Cool, thanks GeeP. I'll retest soon then.
bump
Why the bump? Did you have another question or any new info?
I think I'm just an idiot...haha. Sorry!
I would Hone and Re Ring.Maybe Valve Seals.Stay Completely Away from Synthetic oil because it won't let the Rings Seat Completely.
Car engine shops usually are staffed by serious machine heads who do bikes, street or dirt or ATV's or other crap as a hobby. Now Car mechanics are usually the worst motorcycle mechanics IMHO, but you take a bike's head and chambers to them, they are usually very happy to cut you new seats, new valve 3 angle jobs etc etc. I did so on the GR and the savage. The result was wonderful. Not run the GR yet, but the savage was great.
I'd not run and buy the seats etc, they cannot usually remove seats that well. They will make your old seats into new like specs.
BTW 110 psi cold may be OK. Hot and with valves adjusted right etc etc are what is right. My 89 with 48K made ~100 cold and 150 hot and used a quart in 300 miles, but never did it smoke or misbehave otherwise.
If you think about it, leaking past the valve seals will not hurt compression, and if its getting past the rings ... and making for poor compression, its likely to not wear too fast, more oil getting on the walls and into the chamber cos the oil isn't getting scraped by the ring = slower wear on rings and chamber. It will use more and more oil, but it will be OK. I'd find out where it is, then maybe use the sticky stuff like lucas oil stabiliser in the oil. That crap is lousy for foaming etc etc, but heat and stickiness are its thriving ground.
It will foam a bit and do a litte bit of cavitation type BS usually when cold, but as it gets hotter, oil will have additives that are anti foam that start getting active, so it will not foam as much. That will stick to the walls and hence take up some room in your problem area. As oil gets hot, it works better and better and so does the lucas crap.
Cool.
Srinath.