A friend told me I need to start the GS500 and run it every so often during the winter. I tried doing that last weekend, but it was **** cold. It would crank, but wouldn't start. It was cranking slow, so I think I just need to charge the battery. It's a 12V battery, right? It doesn't say on it, and I can't find it in Clymer. Can I jump start it from my pickup truck like I would a car, or is there some sort of special motorcycle charger I need to get? I have a '93 GS500E if that helps.
you can use a car battery to jump it, HOWEVER do NOT have the car engine running when jumpstarting
Cool, thanks. Why not?
you can nuke your bike's electricals.
Quote from: spcterry on January 08, 2008, 11:29:12 PM
you can nuke your bike's electricals.
yup. and a car battery has enough balls to do it on its own :thumb: btw it is +12v
I disagree, in fact I do a running jump start everytime I need one. If the operating voltages are the same, the batteries corectly connected in parrallel and there is no fault with the donor vehicles charging system there will be no problems.
All this talk about high voltages and currents being introduced into to the bikes electrical system is not true. The max voltage the bike will see will be the same voltage the battery on the donor vehicle sees when charging...... If it was any higher or had an AC element it would be frying the donor vehicles battery.
The bikes electrical system will only draw the current it needs to spin the starter-motor, that current being confined to the starter motor circuit. (Remember Ohms law? Current flow is
proportional to load). The reg/rect will see full voltage across the battery, think it is fully charged and shunt the generator output to earth until the donor battery is disconnected.
OK, I have researched it a bit and if connected in parallel, theoretically there should be no problem. Sledge, as is quite typical, is very accurate in his statement. However, I would definitely not try connecting in series, that could be rather catastrophic.
Yeah, I jumped off a running car before, and there weren't any problems. Sledge is right, 12 volts is 12 volts, and your bike will pull as much amperage as it needs to start. Even though a car's electrical system has a much higher amp rating, your bike won't pull that many amps. I like to think of it in terms of gas pressure: If you tap off of a really fat pipe, but the pressure is 15psi, the pressure that you get in your tap is 15psi, regardless of how fat the pipes are.
Also, it's pretty useful to be able to push-start your bike. It's really helpful in the situations where nobody is around to give you a jump.
Riding year round here in NE Ohio for the past 23 years I've jump started all of my bikes including the 2 GSs many times from the car. I always leave the car turned off while jumping the bike.
Sometimes in jumping a car from a car folks will hook up the jumpers and then sit there reving up the jumper car for a while to warm the car battery being jumped and put a little charge in it. Don't do that when bike jumping, leave it off or at least at idle is my advice.
It's all 12v sorta, but a fully charged battery can measure 13v and a car charging system can put out 14-15 volts when revved up. This was true of the pre-historic dc systems we adjusted regulators for over a half century ago anyway.
There was talk of diodes in the bike system being damaged on certain bikes some years ago when revving up jumper cars while jumping a bike. Can't comfirm this as fact but why push your luck, leave the car turned off while jumping. For sure the bike starter system will draw no more amperage than required.
If you get a good jumper cable connection from the jumper car or truck to the bike it will spin the bike starter faster then it's own battery ever did and start it almost instantly if nothing else is wrong.
It doesn't matter how much you rev a car or truck, if your jumping from the car battery connected to the bike battery or anything else, all you will ever get is 12V or the equivalent from the car battery. The car revving is charging is own battery, if it was putting out more volts than the battery could cope with the doner car battery would be fried before anything else. As stated before.
It doesn't matter if you have the car running, revving or what ever, your still only going to get the same.
Hummm, this is pretty interesting. In the maintenace class I took this past fall the instructor said not to jump a motorcycle off a running car battery. He said that you can pretty much jump off any battery just dont put a load on that donor battery, also make sure you are using motorcycle cables. Good topic because I am sure it is something we have all wondered about.
Quote from: Kasumi on January 09, 2008, 08:21:31 AM
It doesn't matter how much you rev a car or truck, if your jumping from the car battery connected to the bike battery or anything else, all you will ever get is 12V or the equivalent from the car battery. The car revving is charging is own battery, if it was putting out more volts than the battery could cope with the doner car battery would be fried before anything else. As stated before.
It doesn't matter if you have the car running, revving or what ever, your still only going to get the same.
A running car will actually charge the dead bike battery once the jumpers are hooked up at as much as 14.5 volts or possibly even more if the car has a faulty voltage regulator. You can hook up car jumpers to a dead car and the dead car won't turn over but then sit there and rev the jumping cars engine for a few minutes and the dead car will then turn over.
Why worry about it, I'll just leave the jumping car turned off, it will easily start the bike that way with a good jumper connection.
Quote from: Kasumi on January 09, 2008, 08:21:31 AM
It doesn't matter how much you rev a car or truck [...] all you will ever get is 12V or the equivalent from the car battery.
Hmmm ... that seems like a pretty-all-encompassing statement. Anyone care to check this with a meter? I'd do it myself, but my car looked like
this this morning, and it's still kinda yucky outside....
(http://bbburma.net/Temp/A540_0636_ShovelingTheCar.jpg)
Here's a blurb from a who-knows-how-official page called
Car Batteries Are Not 12 volts (http://www.landiss.com/battery.htm):
In the most common configuration, the car battery has six cells, each producing
about 2.1 volts. Thus the total battery output voltage is about 12.6 volts.OK, so the "equivalent"
Kasumi referred to is probably 12.6V instead of 12V. No problem ... the same is probably true of our motorcycle batteries.
But to charge a car or truck(or motorcycle) battery you have to supply voltage to it at a certain threshold (or higher). These quotes from further along on the same page backs up something
gsJack said:
Most cars supplied with hybrid batteries have their voltage regulators set to
14.3 volts, although it is reported that the higher 14.8 volt setting of GM cars does
no harm if the water level is checked regularly.
[...]
Older vehicles with voltage regulators set at about 14.0 volts simply will not fully
charge lead/calcium or hybrid batteries.So depending on the chemistry of the battery that a given car or truck is designed for, its voltage regulator (which supplies regulated voltage from the alternator only when the vehicle is running) may put out a higher voltage than others.
Granted, a similar difference in voltage probably holds for the batteries themselves, depending on their internal chemistry....
At any rate, I'm with
gsJack. A car/truck battery that's in any kind of good shape will have plenty of "oomph" to jump start our little GS500s without using the vehicle's charging system as well. Charging the bike's battery should be left to its own alternator + regulator/rectifier while it's running, or a plugged-in charger while it's at home. :icon_mrgreen:
Wow, thanks guys. I didn't mean to trigger a debate, but I appreciate the advice. I'll give it a try when I get a chance. If I can find my meter, I'll let you know what it says.
I recall a while back there was a suggestion that two cars bumpers touching could be a bad thing. That was when cars/trucks had metal bumpers, and something about a high voltage spike. My memory has failed the important parts.
I've jumped bikes, 4 wheelers, motorcycles, trucks, traactors, cars, mopeds, so many things I can't really remember all of them. (this might be a trend). So far I've done it the right way, as the vehicle needed a jump started, and neither them, nor I exploded, caught fire, or suffered electrocution.
Get the cables wrong, and it's not going to be pretty.
It should be mentioned that if the battery is purging hydrogen or damaged, (jumper or jumpie) it can EXPLODE with some serious force. I've only heard one battery go, it was on a 280zx and it was a tremendous explosion, covering everything within 10 feet with battery acid.
Where your goggles, gloves, etc and shield yourself with the hood of the car(s) while you're jumping. You only get one set of eyes :)
Here's some thoughts on what can happen if both the car and bike are left running after starting the bike, battle of the regulators, bike looses:
http://www.shadowriders.org/faq/jumpstarting.html
Even though I always turn car off while jumping, I still disconnect the cables from the bike as soon as it starts, clamp one cable to the other to keep them seperated, and throw them on the ground to tend to the bike.
What ohgood says about exploding batteries is very rare and most likely to happen with a non sealed mc battery than a sealed car battery as far as emmiting gases goes. I always make the final connection at the jumping car battery ground as reommended before going to the bike to start.
Probably not any more dangerous jumping a bike if you do it right than it is to ride that bike after it's started. :laugh:
how about push starting it? :D
Myself I have had no problems boosting a bike to bike or to car or what have you
Quote from: mattress on January 09, 2008, 03:07:21 PM
how about push starting it? :D
Yep. Worst thing that will happen is you fall off the bike and it skids a little, or it just starts ;)
You could also keep your battery indoors
i used to practice bump starts on my way to-from work , just so if the worst happened , i could get home :thumb:
if youve gotta bump start it, push it down hill or fast lol, hop on, put in second gear ( or higher) hold in clutch, ( with bikes key on, and choke set), stand up on pegs a bit, and simultaneously slam your a$$ into the seat while letting cluch go. as soon as bike fires, pull clutch back in
If you are going to Jump start from a car leave the car off. Your regulator/rectifier is not made to handle the cars charging output and can be damaged -part of it's job is to basically "eat" excessive power from the charging system.
A typical car battery will give you plenty of power for a jump start without the engine running. Once you get the bike running - let the bikes charging system handle the recharge ( you have to go for a good 20 minute ride or so..)/ get a battery charger/tender.
As for starting it every so often... that's ok but you should be riding it... short runs at idle- never really getting hot enough to burn off the combustion leftovers and make the oil nastier quicker ( More condensation too....).
It's up to you... but storing it might be the best thing in the long run...
Oil change... pump the tires up extra.. battery tender....
Quote from: Jared on January 11, 2008, 06:11:54 AM
If you are going to Jump start from a car leave the car off. Your regulator/rectifier is not made to handle the cars charging output and can be damaged -part of it's job is to basically "eat" excessive power from the charging system.
GEEZZZ...We have gone full circle......go back to the start of this thread.
Yes....... the reg/rect governs how much voltage and current is released from the alternator into the bikes electrical system dependent on battery charge and power demand. It doesnt "eat" the excess voltage, it creates a high resistance path to ground through which it dissipates (or is shunted). .......BUT the voltage across the car battery you are jump starting from has ALREADY been rectified from 3ph AC to DC, and is being regulated to 12v by the cars alternator which unlike most bikes has an integral rect/reg
There will never be more than a 12v output from a healthy car alternator and the current it delivers depends solely on electrical load ie: how many lights/ accessories are turned on and how charged the battery is.
The variable component is current, voltage always remains constant and the bike will only draw enough current from the car to spin the starter motor and fire the plugs and the bikes wiring can accomodate this current by design, compare the thickness of the starter motor lead to the rest of the wiring........ You will not automatically get 100s of amps flowing through the bike by connecting it to a running vehicle with a 12v system (unless there is a ground fault on the bike)
Quote from: sledge on January 11, 2008, 12:52:30 PM
There will never be more than a 12v output from a healthy car alternator and the current it delivers depends solely on electrical load ie: how many lights/ accessories are turned on and how charged the battery is.
From:
http://www.familycar.com/Classroom/charging.htm
"A VOLTAGE REGULATOR regulates the charging voltage that the alternator produces, keeping it between 13.5 and 14.5 volts to protect the electrical components throughout the vehicle."
Quote from: sledge on January 11, 2008, 12:52:30 PM
Quote from: Jared on January 11, 2008, 06:11:54 AM
If you are going to Jump start from a car leave the car off. Your regulator/rectifier is not made to handle the cars charging output and can be damaged -part of it's job is to basically "eat" excessive power from the charging system.
There will never be more than a 12v output from a healthy car alternator
give or take a few
Quote from: sledge
give or take a few
haha yeah, but in this case, your "there will never be more than a 12v output from a healthy car alternator" statement is incorrect, considering that there will ALWAYS be more than a 12V output from a healthy car alternator. If it wasn't ~14V, the battery wouldn't charge. If you put a voltmeter across the battery terminals of a running car and it shows 12.0-12.5 volts? The charging system is not working, and you're not going to be driving for very long.
Anyway, some interesting info in this thread, I did not realize this issue has some merit since the bike's regulator works differently... I too had been jumping off a running car, not realizing this is making the bike's regulator work it's ass off. I'll have to give that some thought. Clearly as a lot of us have found though, the regulator seems to be ok with this for at least some period of time as many of us have been jumping off of running cars without issue. In fact, while we were working on some starting problems with my friend's GS, and the GS's battery was obviously not keeping up, we had the car running/jumping for a while as we made multiple attempts to start the bike. At least 10+ minutes, and the GS's regulator seems to be working just fine.
My vote now goes to jumping with the car not running until I figure this out for sure, thanks all! :cheers:
Quote from: sledge on January 11, 2008, 12:52:30 PM
GEEZZZ...We have gone full circle......go back to the start of this thread.
Yes....... the reg/rect governs how much voltage and current is released from the alternator into the bikes electrical system dependent on battery charge and power demand. It doesnt "eat" the excess voltage, it creates a high resistance path to ground through which it dissipates (or is shunted). .......BUT the voltage across the car battery you are jump starting from has ALREADY been rectified from 3ph AC to DC, and is being regulated to 12v by the cars alternator which unlike most bikes has an integral rect/reg
There will never be more than a 12v output from a healthy car alternator and the current it delivers depends solely on electrical load ie: how many lights/ accessories are turned on and how charged the battery is.
The variable component is current, voltage always remains constant and the bike will only draw enough current from the car to spin the starter motor and fire the plugs and the bikes wiring can accomodate this current by design, compare the thickness of the starter motor lead to the rest of the wiring........ You will not automatically get 100s of amps flowing through the bike by connecting it to a running vehicle with a 12v system (unless there is a ground fault on the bike)
In laymans terms it consumes the excess voltage.....or "eats" it . The bikes RR is designed to handle the bikes alternator output...not a larger vehicles.
Put too much through it enough times and it will fail.
Who cares. As mentioned, it works with the car turned off, so why add to the confusion?
I have jumped cars with mine off, other times there system is so completely dead I hook them up and run my car for a bit to help charge their system.
I wouldn't make it a habit though. Use a battery charger if you have access to one. The charging system on the bike/car can get pretty toasty when charging up a battery from scratch. This is the reason that stuff tends to go out at the same time. A bad battery will run the alternator at max duty cycle, and a weak alternator will result in low charge on the battery, which slowly kills it's ability to hold charge.
So I tried to jump the motorcycle and it didn't work. I then tried with the truck running and it still wouldn't charge. I had it properly connected with good connections, so I'm not sure what was wrong. I took the battery out of the bike and had it tested. They said it was in good shape. I bought a charger and it charged just fine. It cranks now, but doesn't start. I've since drained the battery twice trying to start it. I have it back on the charger and am looking at other problems. The spark plugs look ok. I think I might have some bad gas in it (It's been sitting since early November). It's also 15 degrees F out right now and it always has been a cold blooded thing. Battery is inside when it isn't charging. I think I'm going to pull the whole bike into my apartment, put some fresh gas in (maybe not in that order) and let it warm up before (taking it back outside and) starting it.
Ok, got it running. Amazing what a little ether can do. :icon_twisted:
I have measured a few cars when they are running with multimeter's and most will be 14ish volts across the battery terminals.
So, the general consensus (without flaming) for a good motorcycle jump:
1) Attach the motorcycle leads first
2) Attach the donor positive first, then the ground last
3) Do not run the donor engine (generally we're using a car battery, and it's available reserve is plenty)
4) choke and hit the starter (assuming it's cold)
5) pull the gs's jump leads and clip one to the lines to prevent a short
6) adjust the gs's choke and once it's stable pull the donor's leads
7) warm up and ride somewhere to check your battery / leads / starter
Agreement ?