Well, i've looked around to see if i could find an answer to my problem but i'm not bike savvy enough yet to really understand what exactly to look for that's wrong with my bike.
I bought a gs500f about 4 months ago with 5000 miles on it. It's was perfect for the first few months but later in the winter (alabama winters so not colder than the mid teens at the coldest at night) the bike started to take alot longer to crank up, even on warmer days. When i first bought it it would crank almost instantly when it was 30 outside but as time went by it took about 4-5 tries to get it to start. The other day I went on a poker run, in which i drove the bike 220 miles at about 90 mph the whole time. The bike ran perfect all day, even after stopping at the dealership at the end and not starting it for another 2 hours it started back up like normal. But about two days later I go out to the garage and try to start the bike and it won't start at all. It will turn over and sounds sorta off, and wont start. The only way to get it to start is to twist the throttle completely open and hit the starter for about 5 straight seconds, then i have to keep it revved to keep it running. I got it to idle once, but it was only at about 900 rpms and sounded very off. I tried driving it and in second gear it was extremely jumpy, like the feeling of running out of gas, and when i hit the clutch the bike died completely. So now I'm kinda at a loss of what to do. I don't really know what to look for and couldn't find anyone with any problems that were exactly like what i was describing so i didnt want to go take the bike apart when i dont really know whats wrong. i cant get it to start at all without full throttle twist and if it does start doing that i have to keep feeding it gas to keep it running.
Anyone have any suggestions of what may be wrong? any help is appreciated
thanks
are you outa gas? :dunno_white:
The first things I would check are:
- gas in the tank
- condition of spark plugs
- is there fuel in the carbs? (use a hose on the drain plug. If not, turn it to "PRI" and wait a few seconds, then check again)
- is the air filter plugged?
I have the same exact problem with mine. 5000 miles doesnt start. Its still winter so i'm going to deal with it in march. If you figure out your problem let me know. My situation is almost exactly the same as yours. worked perfectly for a while had to crank it hard to start it later on
Alabama = South = fairly humid, right?
I wonder if you might have some weird sort of condensation-in-the-wiring problem. If the bike stays out "in the weather", is there any way that you could park it in a nice WARM and DRY place for a day or two? Just thinking out loud about what might have changed.... (http://bbburma.net/Smilies/dunno_black.gif)
Quote from: Meph on January 30, 2008, 04:26:18 PM
Well, i've looked around to see if i could find an answer to my problem but i'm not bike savvy enough yet to really understand what exactly to look for that's wrong with my bike.
I bought a gs500f about 4 months ago with 5000 miles on it. It's was perfect for the first few months but later in the winter (alabama winters so not colder than the mid teens at the coldest at night) the bike started to take alot longer to crank up, even on warmer days. When i first bought it it would crank almost instantly when it was 30 outside but as time went by it took about 4-5 tries to get it to start. The other day I went on a poker run, in which i drove the bike 220 miles at about 90 mph the whole time. The bike ran perfect all day, even after stopping at the dealership at the end and not starting it for another 2 hours it started back up like normal. But about two days later I go out to the garage and try to start the bike and it won't start at all. It will turn over and sounds sorta off, and wont start. The only way to get it to start is to twist the throttle completely open and hit the starter for about 5 straight seconds, then i have to keep it revved to keep it running. I got it to idle once, but it was only at about 900 rpms and sounded very off. I tried driving it and in second gear it was extremely jumpy, like the feeling of running out of gas, and when i hit the clutch the bike died completely. So now I'm kinda at a loss of what to do. I don't really know what to look for and couldn't find anyone with any problems that were exactly like what i was describing so i didnt want to go take the bike apart when i dont really know whats wrong. i cant get it to start at all without full throttle twist and if it does start doing that i have to keep feeding it gas to keep it running.
Anyone have any suggestions of what may be wrong? any help is appreciated
thanks
SOunds like electrical to me, a broken or corroded coil wire or spark plug wire maybe ? Mine did a similar thing a while back. Thought it was the carburetors, tore them apart, wrong. Simple partially broken wire made it -seem- like a fueling problem. It would rev nicely, but idle very poorly. Starting was an issue too.
Check your wires, check your plugs. Then make sure your fuel lines are ok, and your pet chicken isn't sucking air.
Oh, and duh huh, drain your tank and carbs. Now I'm thinking water/trash in the gas tank. (The duh huh is for me, not you ;) )
is the carb breather hose blocked?
Quote from: Kerry on January 30, 2008, 04:46:22 PM
Alabama = South = fairly humid, right?
I wonder if you might have some weird sort of condensation-in-the-wiring problem. If the bike stays out "in the weather", is there any way that you could park it in a nice WARM and DRY place for a day or two? Just thinking out loud about what might have changed.... (http://bbburma.net/Smilies/dunno_black.gif)
when i can ill start checking some of the things people have listed. I do keep the bike garaged at all times, so its out of the majority of the humidity, it has been near the sixties for a day or two and still the same problem with the bike
Quote from: Meph on January 30, 2008, 05:04:43 PMI do keep the bike garaged at all times, so its out of the majority of the humidity, it has been near the sixties for a day or two and still the same problem with the bike
Sixties? Whoa! Never mind my suggestion then; I guess I'm stuck in my current "the high along the Wasatch Front today will be 28 degrees" circumstances.
well it will be close to 70 so im about to go clean up the garage a bit and work on the bike to see what i come up with, hopefully i can figure out whats wrong with it.
sounds fuel related to me. if it is turning over and only starting at full throttle i would think it is a fuel problem. if you are not bike savvy i would take it to a dealership for the fix, unless you have a local friend who is savvy. make sure they take it for a long test run after the repair. on a couple of occasions i have gotten my 89 gs back from the dealer only to have it crap out on me a few miles later. as it turns out it was a vacuum problem and really no big deal once it has been diagnosed. try not to crank it too long cuz you could end up doing more damage than normal. again if you have the money and a Suzuki dealership near by see if you can get it in there and fixed. we all know what it is like having a bike at one time or another that has not worked properly. it is very disappointing and stressful. this board and the people on it are some of the greatest bike people i have the pleasure of knowing. i am sure someone here is able to help you out.
Frankie
thanks for the advice.
If i can't get it running after a normal amount of effort im sure i will take it in. I just can't afford it really. I'm pretty technically savvy with anything and feel i can fix something if I can figure out what it is. I do have alot of lawnmower and car engine teching under my belt along with many other things.
I did get to work on the bike today. I took some pics to show what i've found and see if anyone knows whats up
So heres the story for today. The bike is steadily dripping gas out of the drain tube. There is still a nice puddle under my bike, its been dripping for days, the petcock is not on prime so thats not why its doing it. here's a pic of the puddle:
(http://files.blackdawnguild.com/Meph/bike/workingonbike/puddle_bw.jpg)
There is a nice pool of gas in my airbox. Pic included:
(http://files.blackdawnguild.com/Meph/bike/workingonbike/airboxgas_bw.jpg)
I pulled my spark plugs and they look like they have some dry carbon residue, im going to replace them, but i still dont know why so much gas is entering my airbox and draining out the tube nonstop. spark plug pic:
(http://files.blackdawnguild.com/Meph/bike/workingonbike/Sparkplug_bw.jpg)
I also checked the oil, it was slightly above the full mark and smelled of gasoline, dunno if thats normal or not, but i smelled the stick after cleaning and redipping and i smelled gas on it. once again pic:
(http://files.blackdawnguild.com/Meph/bike/workingonbike/dipstick_bw.jpg)
and that's about as far as i could get today, anyone have an idea?? :dunno_white:
Doesn't that mean a stuck or improperly set float ?
One of the guru's will correct me shortly.... :)
that would be fine with me, what really bothers me is not knowing whats wrong with it, not that fact that something is wrong =)
Quote from: ohgood on February 04, 2008, 06:54:15 PM
Doesn't that mean a stuck or improperly set float ?
I'd buy that ... or maybe a bit of grit preventing the float needle(s) from sealing up the fuel inlet. Kinda the opposite of a
damaged needle, which I wouldn't expect with a newer bike:
(http://bbburma.net/Scans/Clymer_FloatNeedles_Inspection.jpg)
Looks like your float height is too high causing your mixture to run rich and foul your plugs. Do the float height test mentioned here (courtesy of Kerry :thumb: :thumb:)
http://www.bbburma.net/FloatHeight.htm
This also explains why gas is spilling into your air box.
You can't easily adjust the 2004 - 2007 floats.
Check your carb breather hose first!!!
Check this thread. I had something similar, pulled my entire carbs aprat and it ended up just being I had a wasp build a nest in my carb breather hose
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=33835.0
Now that is a thread that I'm sorry I missed. LOVE the diagram in [this post (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=33835.msg377344#msg377344)]. :thumb: :thumb:
i'll check the breather hose asap.
Now since my oil level seems to be high and i'm smelling gas in the oil, should i do an oil flush and fill before i start to ride her again once i fix the carb problem? and does this particular carb problem normally cause gas to enter the oil pan?
Quote from: Meph on February 05, 2008, 11:22:47 AMNow since my oil level seems to be high and i'm smelling gas in the oil, should i do an oil flush and fill before i start to ride her again once i fix the carb problem?
Yep, that would be a good idea. :thumb:
Quote from: Meph on February 05, 2008, 11:22:47 AMdoes this particular carb problem normally cause gas to enter the oil pan?
It certainly can. I don't know exactly how the carbs on the F models are situated, but you can see from [
this E model diagram (http://bbburma.net/Scans/www_gs500_de_HoseRouting.jpg)] that it's a downhill run from the "Carb Throat" in [
galahs' diagram (http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/8602/vapourlockeb2.gif)] to the cylinders ... depending on how level the bike is when it's parked.
Fuel would seep down the intake boots to the intake valves. If one of the valves was open, it would continue down the side of the cylinder wall, around the piston to the split in the ring(s), and eventually down to the oil pan.
Hey, maybe we can get
galahs to whip up another diagram! :laugh:
carb breather hose is perfectly clear. So now i guess the only thing left to do is put the gas tank on and check the float height?
Galahs, you said that an 05 carb float can't be easily adjusted, so if the problem is the float what can i do?
I agree that the float height is either too high, the needle valve is damaged or dirt is preventing it from seating. I had a similar problem and it turned out to be a piece of dirt on the needle valve. I'd pull the carbs and clean them up and it should fix the problem.
Installing an inline fuel filter will prevent this from happening in the future.
It would be a good idea to change the oil since it's diluted with gas after you fix the problem too. Since there isn't a ton of gas in the oil you could burn it out of the oil with a long ride (it should evaporate once the oil gets hot) but it would be better to change it.
ok i replaced the spark plugs with a new set of ngk stock ones and it started up like a champ, sounded normal and took less than a second to start.
So i guess the improper running has been fixed with the plugs, im gonna put the gas tank back on and go out to buy some clear hose in a day or two, that way i can see how much the carbs are still leaking into the airbox. I don't know what size hose to get to check the float height so ill just guess hehe.
thanks for all the help so far, ill update again when i can.
ok after taking the gas tank off and letting the bike sit for a while, i replaced the plugs and it started up great.
I put the gas tank back on and it ran great for a few minutes, so i turned it off and decided to check the float level. I used kerry's pic as a reference since i could not take a picture of it. Here's how my float test went:
(http://files.blackdawnguild.com/Meph/bike/carbheight.jpg)
I took the bike for a short spin after checking the float height, it was the same on both sides. It started perfect, ran fine for a few miles, but it did sound a little boggy and had a little lag in the revving once i twisted the throttle, but then the idle started to drop and the bike sounded really bogged down, at low rpms i had to keep it revved to keep it running, and it was a hassle to get it started off in first gear because it would bog down and stall with moderate amounts of throttle applied. I got it home and checked and no gas has entered the airbox yet as far as I can tell. So i'm wondering if my floats being set wrong will cause the bike to not idle, die, and not start without a good amount of throttle now that the system is filled up with gas again. /sigh i just wanna ride her lol. anyone know if lowering the float height will fix those problems or if there are other underlying problems here also?
i know im probably getting annoying with these questions but right now im at the point where i could go pull my carbs and im wondering if just adjusting the floats will more than likely fix all these problems =)
As I understand it, the carburetors rely on the float bowl fuel level to regulate fuel flow into the intake airstream (by providing hydrostatic pressure which drives fuel flow). If the fuel level is too high, it could result in an improper fuel mixture into the engine. You should definitely adjust the float height to correct this.
Let me know if you don't have a manual and I will post directions on how to.
Never having had my floats that high, I can't say from experience what the symptoms would be. (Maybe Srinath can?)
But if you don't mind getting a little gasoline (and carb cleaner) on you, and you're fairly meticulous about keeping everything organized when you take something apart ... I'd say "pull those carbs". ;)
The only thing is ... I don't know if the float height numbers for the old-style carbs (14.6mm +/- 1.0mm) still holds for the newer carbs.
At any rate, it looks like I did a "step-by-step" (of sorts) back in [THIS OLD POST (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=27415.msg291582#msg291582)], along with a link to a full-page scan from the Haynes manual.
Good luck!
thanks guys, ill adjust the heights and see if it fixes it. I wish i had a computer in my garage, it's an apartment garage and there wasn't one available right by my apartment so its a few hundred feet away lol. ill do some printing and take things with me, i guess i should also go pick up some carb cleaner and some new ragcloths to work with. ill post up my results
On a related topic, I found a thread in the FAQ describing how to set the float height: http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=26604.0 (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=26604.0)
Unfortunately, the pictures seem to have disappeared. Does anyone know how to get these pictures back?
ok i got my carbs off without too much hassle. Lots of hoses and things ill be trying to remember the spots for later hehe.
anyways it looks like the previous owner of the bike has done some "work" to it before i got to it. The screws that hold the float bowls on are halfway stripped and even with a good grip seem impossible to get out with a philips head, so now im gonna get a dremel set and dremel slots in the screws to try to get them out with a flathead.
basically with the carbs off I can make the needed adjustments just by taking off the float bowls correct? thanks for the replies while i head to sears for a new screwdriver set and a dremel set :thumb: new tools are a plus
also i found a great use for those spare beer bottles from wrenching that are laying around in the garage, if i dont have a clean container to recycle my fuel, here's a new idea !!
(http://files.blackdawnguild.com/Meph/bike/beerbottle.jpg)
Quote from: beRto on February 11, 2008, 04:44:15 PMDoes anyone know how to get these pictures back?
:icon_confused: It looks like the pictures (including
Dr. Love's missing avatar) were hosted at
phas.ubc.ca ... possibly an on-campus, for-students-and-faculty site at the University of British Columbia? (http://bbburma.net/Smilies/dunno_black.gif) My guess is that he/she "moved on". They last logged onto GStwin on 16 May 2007.
All I can think of is to PM them and hope they have email notification turned on. Or, ask an admin to forward an email for ya (to their "hidden" email address).
Gotta love broken links ...! :mad:
I guess there is one more option: someone could take new photos! :icon_rolleyes:
ubc = university of british columbia in vancouver canada
Quotealso i found a great use for those spare beer bottles from wrenching that are laying around in the garage, if i dont have a clean container to recycle my fuel, here's a new idea !!
Careful! That could be dangerous if you leave it lying around unlabelled.
Quote from: Meph on February 11, 2008, 04:57:19 PMbasically with the carbs off I can make the needed adjustments just by taking off the float bowls correct? thanks for the replies while i head to sears
If all you are looking to do is set the float heights (and clean out the float needle seat, and a jet or two) then yes ... you can get to all of that stuff by pulling the float bowls.
The photo below is from an '01/'02 carb, but hopefully it will provide some good hints.
(http://bbburma.net/MiscFotos/100_1932_ManjulsBike_Carbs_WithFloatBowlsRemoved_Annotated.jpg)
Meph?
Meph? Awwww, he left already. Hopefully he'll be able to find some replacement float bowl screws while he's out. :icon_rolleyes:
got the bowls off, annnnd reset the float height, got everything back together (after much cussing and such) and the float height seems to be perfect on both sides now, less than a millimeter off of the gasket, now my only problem is that my bike wont start :mad: ran the battery dead trying to start it. Soooooo.... dunno what to do now. :dunno_white:
Are you fairly sure that you got all of the hoses reconnected right?
Just for completeness' sake ('cause this has bit me more than once) ... did you reopen the tank petcock and PRIme the carbs?
Does anything come out when you open the float bowl drain screws?
Oh, and just curious: did you happen to clean the jets while you had the carbs off? (Soak 'em in carb cleaner for, oh, 15 minutes ... and then blow 'em out and/or run a toothbrush bristle through 'em?) If not, no big deal, I guess. Just fishing for data we may need in the future.
im pretty sure i connected everything back exactly how it came off,
The carbs were filled with gas, which is how i saw that my float levels are correct now :thumb:
i did forget to mention that it was making some funny blip and bloop (yea real good description eh lol) noises when i was trying to start it, it wanted to start a few times but the throttle killed it and it sounded all blippy, and when i let go of the starter there was always one noticable bloop noise right when it stopped turning over.
no, i did not clean the jets, i didn't want to mess with anything more than what i knew i was doing heh :laugh:
Quote from: Meph on February 11, 2008, 10:13:19 PMThe carbs were filled with gas, which is how i saw that my float levels are correct now :thumb:
DUH! My bad. See, I told you I had been bitten before. ;) "There's always a second time." :oops:
Quote from: Meph on February 11, 2008, 10:13:19 PMi did forget to mention that it was making some funny blip and bloop (yea real good description eh lol) noises when i was trying to start it, it wanted to start a few times but the throttle killed it and it sounded all blippy, and when i let go of the starter there was always one noticable bloop noise right when it stopped turning over.
Hmmmm. "Blip"s and "bloop"s. I'll have to think about that one.... (http://bbburma.net/Smilies/headscratch.gif)
Quote from: Meph on February 11, 2008, 10:13:19 PMno, i did not clean the jets, i didn't want to mess with anything more than what i knew i was doing heh :laugh:
No problem - thanks for the data. :thumb:
while the engine was turning over the noises werent really there, but at the end of each try it would be a loud noticable one and if i put on any throttle at all it was also noticable.
i'll have a little time to work on it today so i hope i can get it running, I would hate to have to take it in at this point cause i can't really afford it.
If I remember correctly, the bike would at least start and run before you pulled the carbs, right? Changing the float height to a better setting shouldn't prevent that, so something must have changed during reassembly. (http://bbburma.net/Smilies/dunno_black.gif)
Quote...the float height seems to be perfect on both sides now, less than a millimeter off of the gasket
Congrats! Great Start! :thumb:
Quotenow my only problem is that my bike wont start
I'm sure it's not a major problem... you'll get it sorted out yet! :icon_mrgreen: Like Kerry said, make sure you put everything back the way you found it.
Since you've confirmed you have fuel, the only other components are air and spark. If the airbox isn't clogged (did you forget a rag in there maybe?), then make sure the spark plugs are properly connected. It might be worthwhile to check both sides for spark (the procedure is in the shop manual, or you can search on the forum).
edit: when you opened up the carbs, were they clean? Maybe your messing around in the floatbowls dislodged some gunk that's now clogging up the jets?
UPDATE:
went out there today and noticed i hadn't reconnected the hose that connects to the top of the airbox.
I reconnected it and the bike would start, but only with full choke, after a while the bike would idle, but the entire time any kind of throttle instantly bogged the bike down and killed it. I noticed a bit of backfiring and could see some in the carb through the airbox. once the bike instantly died at about 4k rpms. I did get it to idle, but only very shortly, for 10 seconds or so max.
still at a loss of what to do.
other than that, the carbs looked very clean and i dont remember doing anything at all to mess them up, i had clean hands and made sure everything was in tip top shape. So now my basic symptoms are, choke will allow the bike to run, will occasionally idle, throttle bogs it out completely with choke on OR off, and some noticable occasional backfiring. One good thing to know also was i did this WITHOUT a gas tank on, this was done with the gas that was in the carbs since i had to remove the gas tank because the bike wouldnt start.
QuoteI noticed a bit of backfiring and could see some in the carb through the airbox.
How can you see the carbs through the airbox? Do you not have an air filter installed?! If not, the bike may be complaining that the mixture is too lean.
correct, my air filter is not on.
Quotecorrect, my air filter is not on.
And how does the bike perform with the air filter reinstalled?
ill go install my air filter and gas tank and see how she's doing fully put together, maybe to get a better idea of whats going on
air filter on, gas tank on, took a little work and got it running and idling like normal again, the bike does not seem to be running the same as it did before, takes a little more throttle in first gear to get her rolling without stalling and the idle isnt AS steady, but pretty steady, the bike rode well enough to think that nothing else is wrong with it for now.
So far, so good! :)
Based on your description, you may be in need of carb balancing or idle adjustment.
the idle was sorta high and i adjusted it down to 1300 or so. Though I don't know anything about the carb balancing hehe. I'm glad the float height setting seems to have gone well, considering I haven't touched a carb in 5 years or so, and this is my first work on a motorcycle.
now its time for two oils changes and a filter replacement! =D
Great stuff!
Provided you adjusted the idle when the bike was warm, I'd say that you shouldn't worry about it any more and just keep riding! If you notice any additional problems, we may need to consider carb balancing or other solutions.
p.s. If the air filter was originally removed because it is dirty, you should get a new one.
air filter looks pretty darn clean, i think im gonna keep it for now. and yea i adjusted the idle after my first ride on her in a month.
Thanks for all the help everyone, i'll post up any further detail should anything else come up.
Don't know what I would have done without you guys :thumb:
another i've noticed that is different is now with full choke the bike revs up to about 4600 to 5000 rpms, when before full choke would only take it to 4000 max. Just thought i'd mention for future reference maybe :icon_mrgreen:
The bike seems to be running good now, a little different than before but good. when i went back out there to put the fairings back on today there was a little bit of gas in the drain tube again. should i be worried about this? i hope the carbs arent STILL overflowing =*(
Which one are you calling the drain tube? You can have the float height set properly but still have the float bowl overflow if the needle valves aren't closing properly (and your petcock is in PRI or set to ON but faulty).
I swear it sounds like your getting an air lock in your float bowls.
Are you certain your car breather tube is clear?
the airbox drain tube, and yes i am definitely certain.
but.. I just realized something, That drain tube was the tube that kept making puddles on my garage floor before i worked on the bike, and I never drained that tube after I worked on the bike... It wasnt dripping, it was just in there and would get on my hands when i squeezed it, So im thinking its the left over gas in the tube from when my float heights were set too high. So im going to drain it tomorrow, and check the airbox to see if there is any gas in there, if there is no gas in the airbox that means its just the gas from before i worked on the bike :icon_mrgreen:
QuoteSo im going to drain it tomorrow, and check the airbox to see if there is any gas in there, if there is no gas in the airbox that means its just the gas from before i worked on the bike
Seems reasonable... let us know how it turns out.
Hey, Meph . . . How did this turn out? Did you ever get it solved?
Meph, I am having th same issue, gas leaking problem, bike wont start!! did you ever repaired this problem? I so I would appreciate it if you respond. :cheers: