GStwin.com GS500 Message Forum

Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine is the most relevent documentary I have ever seen.  It will blow you away, so go out and rent it if you haven't already seen it.

What's it about? That shooting a few years back?...

It's about firearms and media.

I agree Piper, it's an important  movie I think everybody should see.

Don't let the name fool you, it's not only about the school shooting. If you haven't watched it yet, rent it!

John

Stay in Canada.  You'll be safe. :guns:

*cough*left wing socialist propaganda*cough*

Great docu/film personally i prefer his book
"Stupid White Men"  :thumb:

La

Quote from: Piper5177Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine is the most relevent documentary I have ever seen.  It will blow you away, so go out and rent it if you haven't already seen it.

the problem is, is it's not a true documentary. there are significant works of fiction in it. for example, where he gets the hunting rifle at the bank, the bank usually makes people go through a waiting period, but his assistants called ahead and arranged for him to be able to pick up the rifle the same day he walked in. this is a confirmed incident that roger ebert uncovered looking into this film. the big problem is that michael moore was selling this as a strict documentary this whole time, after this came to light he eventually fessed up to it (after a lot of purial screaming). at that point the film ceased to have credability, because if he fudged that and lied about it, what else did he lie about?

i will also say what i always say. a gun is a tool, and like any tool it can do anything when someone uses it, and that person decides whether to go good or harm. people were brutally killing each other before guns ever showed up. our society needs to start excerising personal responsability.

If you think that was a documentary you are seriously deluded...

:guns:

stretching the story is one thing, he did that a bit

but the underlying facts presented themselves well in the movie.  i walked away in a state "shock and awe"

we are in a country of fear and aggression and stroking

many many people driving their SUVs hauling their toys around and talking on the phone are doing that because they feel the DESERVE this, even though thier debt is outragous and if you threaten ther RIGHT to drive they will cut you off and swerve into your lane

come on, one of the great appeals to the GS500e is that it's so damed utilitarian.  you don't need much more and much less you wouldn't be able to function on todays roads.

a  hayabusa would and is fun to think about, but i don't need it.  I'm  so fuckin liberal it's crazy .  so have what ever you want but because you do, it doesn't give you a right to make my life miserable and cut me off and drive up insurance costs.

i think too many cunfuse what they have a right to, and what they feel they deserve  ........  like guns

classless society I tell you

every bike should be nothing more and nothing less than a gs500


i wann move to canada and ride there at times.

people of the US respond to mistakes with aggression, not forgiveness ...geezez

today, i got cut off because someone wanted the gas pump i was heading to, goota have gotta get my fuel to drive my lincoln navigator so i feel i have the right to puch that littl emotorcycle out of my path i guess

how are people gunna repond to gas prives today, my money says there will be a story about a fight at the gas pumps in the next weekend.  instead maybe people shoudl stay at home, instead of terrorizing me and my wife for fun in our canoe with your jet ski, we saw you laughing you piece of shaZam! living off daddies money last weekend at the lake.



any canadians out there, what is your take on this?

wow, look at what you just read. you basically advocating a socialist society, where everyone is equal and everything is utilitarian. classless society worked out great for soviet russia, didn't it?  

the issue is, the moment you "stretch" a documentary, it is no longer a documentary, it is a work of fiction. the moment he lied, he and his documentary lost credability since we can no longer believe what he's telling us is actually the truth. it may still be an insteresting story, but it can no longer be accepted as truth.

the right to bear arms is a right as defined with the bill of rights. it's more of a right than to drive suv's or motorcycles. until you get the bill of rights changed, you're simply incorrect.

zoltan, can you honestly say you know what a socialist society is, what utilitarianism is

the bill of rights was written to defend our COUNTRY, not the right to pull a gun on someone because they cut you off or their dog pissed on your lawn

Quote from: klimberzoltan, can you honestly say you know what a socialist society is, what utilitarianism is

the bill of rights was written to defend our COUNTRY, not the right to pull a gun on someone because they cut you off or their dog pissed on your lawn

yes, i can honestly say that i do, you however, apparently can not.

no, the bill of rights was written to defend the people from the government.

in your inflammitory example, it's still not the gun's fault that it was drawn and used unjustly, it's the person's fault who used it. if not for a gun, then a knife, a baseball bat, a car, etc. it's irresponsible to say that it's a gun's fault something bad happened, it's the fault of the person holding the gun.

interesting how the UK, with it's total ban on guns, still continues to lead the US in criminal acts per capita and violent crime per capita, and continues to climb in both categories. their number of violent crimes commited with a gun also continues to rise.

Quotethe moment he lied, he and his documentary lost credability since we can no longer believe what he's telling us is actually the truth. it may still be an insteresting story, but it can no longer be accepted as truth.

Exactly! Just like George Bush lying about Iraq importing uranium from Africa. How could you guys ever trust him again?

As far as the movie goes, haven't seen it yet but will. I agree with Moore though I wouldn't take anything in any documentary as being 100 percent true. It is entertainment. Everyone does something for a reason, to prove some point, so there will always be a bias in it.

zoltan, you can believe what you want, just as much as i can.  i've lost two friends to unjustified  violence and don't want to go there.   we obviously disagree on this but at least we can agree on gs500's which is what this site is about.  i'm steppin off my soap box.  there must be a political science chat room somehwere to hash out worlds probelms on.  

didn't mean to piss any one off,  an i'm still gunna wave to every harley rider wether they wave back or not.  

later

Well, as much as I'd like to say Canada is as perfect as it's portayed in the movie, it's not. We have our share of crime and such too, and don't move here to escape bad drivers because we have them in abundance!  :guns:

As slightly unrealistic it's perfect view of Canada was, I'm sure it was at least as unrealistic with it's portayal of the US. Most of the people he interviewed were people who weren't intelligent enough to make it on the Springer show.

The reason I think it's important is mainly because of what it shows is going on with kids...and we've all seen the news stories, so we know that's not a fabrication. When there's kids going into schools(or wherever) and gunning people down, there's something SERIOUSLY wrong with that picture...no matter what country it happens to be in...and yes, it's happened in Canada too.

I think part of the problem is that people seem to live life like they're in a movie, and they don't really consider the consequenses of their actions. If you want an example of that, just look around you when you ride. The way people drive these days, it's quite obvious most of them have no concept of just how serious what they're doing is. Hurtling down the road in a several thousand pound machine and talking on the phone...or eating...or even READING (yes, I've seen people reading while they were driving). They don't realize (or just don't worry about it) that a moment's inattention could quite easily kill them and several other people....or cripple them for life.

I think it's the same sort of thing with guns. Cars are quite safe in the right hands, and so are guns. Problem is, sometimes the wrong people in a (usually drunken) rage will go grab the gun when somebody pisses them off and start shooting. At that moment they're not thinking "hmm...well...he(or she) has really pissed me off. If I shoot them, I could kill them, or at the very least seriously injure them, and it's not THAT big an issue I guess. Besides, I could spend the rest of my life in jail if I do." If people DID think about it, they likely wouldn't do it in most cases.

Again..just like cars. Do you think the person who runs somebody off the road because they just HAVE to pass that car so they can save 10 seconds on their trip home is thinking rationally?

People just need to think more is all....and give a shaZam! about each other.  :)

:cheers:
John

A gun doesn't kill someone when it's just lying on the coffie table.

The only purpose for speech is to convince. The film is trying to convince you (I haven't seen it).

Feel free to watch the show, but remember you are free to watch it because of firearms. The US has a bloody history. The freedoms we enjoy, including mister Moore's and our freedom to discuss this issue is due to the fact that many people sacrificed thier personal safety and lives so that future generations would be free to live as they see fit.

I think the real tragedy of modern America is how much we've allowed the individual to scapegoat responsability of their own actions. I'm a firm believer in individual freedom and as such I belive in the profound importance of individual responsability.

Did this "documentery" mention all of the progressive social reforms they were attempting at the school? Such as classes on developing indiviual morality? This kids were doing just as they were taught. They were forming a set of morals that satisfied them without regard for the rest of the worlds. condition.

Did he also mention the explosives they made? And that if they had not had the guns and had gone to their explosives that the death toll would have been much higher? In this "documentery" how much time was spent researching all of the related issues and how much was spent witch-hunting and individuals right to protect themselves from the oppression and violence of others?

Had a single person in that school been allowed to carry a protective firearm how likey do you think those kids whould have been to stroll down the halls shooting at people knowing at any second someone might be shooting back? And how well were the police able to compensate for this lack of protection?

Just because it's wrapped in a fancy package, don't let a movie, or TV show, or a book, or a newspaper, convince you that they know whats right. Research everything think for yourself. If you still are for an impotent sociallist society that's fine. But don't think that just because someone else said so.

Look at countries that have banned firearms, England, Austraila. Since doing so crime, especially fire-arms related, has been on a steady climb. For the 1st time in history every member of the British police force now has to have a sidearm.

Look at states of the union who have passed concealled carry laws. Violent crime as dropped signifigantly in Florida since passing theirs. Nobody starts shaZam! in Texas because everyone knows that MOST people have a gun.

In these cases the vast majority of RESPONSABLE citizens keep the irrisponsable ones in fear of retribution reducing their likelyhood to lash out at those around them.

I'll leave you with a couple of my favorite quotes: "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin"

This one is translated and from memory so may not be 100% accurate.

"For the first time a nation has complete gun registration. This will increase the effectiveness of our police forces and pave the way for future reform. The rest of the world will follow in the footsteps of our progress!" Hitler - 1939

THANK YOU, ZOLTAN!

Those are beautiful words. Right on.

-Anti

Canada is unfortunately too close to the US, and we have a lot of influence from the media and trade.

The murder rate in Canadian cities is about 1/10 that in comparable cities in the US. It is partly the US gun culture allowing easy access to hand guns. Humans are rational only a very small percentage of their waking hours. Allowing easy access to a device that can kill as easily as a hand gun will result in a high murder rate.

The American culture does embrace violence in a very disturbing way. From a slightly outside perspective, when I watch American movies, I am always shocked at the casual shooting, explosions, deaths and violence that is such a part of most of them. When I watch European, Mexican, South American or Canadian movies, they are mostly about the human experience, and generally have every little violence or shooting. I always think what an alien would think of the US from watching their movies...

Someone made the comment above that access to guns is supposed to protect the US citizens from the goverment. Maybe that was the hope 200 years ago. Do you actually think having public access to hand guns is going to have any influence on a government that controls a military that is several times more powerful than the rest of the world's combined? Access to hand guns only breeds violent death.

I think you will have trouble finding too many unlocked doors in Toronto at night, as Moore tried to sell in his movie. It isn't a true documentary, but the US media is so skewed the other way generally that only a warped mirror has any hope of reflecting the truth.

The US people generally seem to be so convinced that they have the greatest country in the world, they are not keen to accept any criticism. Having the highest infant mortality rates of any developed country, the highest incarceration rates, the highest violent crime rates, the lowest % of people with acceptable health care, huge areas of cities that are off-limit ghettos, the highest income disparity that results in a large poor population in such a rich country, the wastefulness, militarism and many other factors makes it look like a culture in crisis to me.

It is very scary that the US has such a dominant military and the need to bend the world to it's resource needs to fuel this aggressive, wastefull violent culture.

Without getting into a huge discussion of who's better than whom and why...A few quick points:

QuoteSomeone made the comment above that access to guns is supposed to protect the US citizens from the goverment. Maybe that was the hope 200 years ago. Do you actually think having public access to hand guns is going to have any influence on a government that controls a military that is several times more powerful than the rest of the world's combined? Access to hand guns only breeds violent death.

Please keep up...the previous quote should be that "the bill of rights defends people from the government."  To selectively read that as "access to guns" makes for a very convenient, but fallible argument on your part.  

QuoteI always think what an alien would think of the US from watching their movies...

Um, do you really?  What a curious preoccupation...

Quote from: KevinCCanada is unfortunately too close to the US, and we have a lot of influence from the media and trade.

The murder rate in Canadian cities is about 1/10 that in comparable cities in the US. It is partly the US gun culture allowing easy access to hand guns. Humans are rational only a very small percentage of their waking hours. Allowing easy access to a device that can kill as easily as a hand gun will result in a high murder rate....so on and so forth...

i'll hate myself in the morning for getting drawn into this, but this post was too outragious not to answer.

the murder rate of canada is holding steady at 1.8/100,000 and the US peak murder rate was 11/100,000 in 1980 (and has been declining since). now, if i did my math correctly, at the peak of murders in the US Canada would still only have a murder 6 times less than the US. so, um, what order "facts" did you make up? how about that the US leads the world in violent crimes? the US actually placed 12th in the catagory. 1st place went to South Africa, followed by the United Kingdom with their total gun ban, then New Zealand, Luxembourg, Canada, Australia, Sweden, Austria, Belgium and Finland. So Canada, actually, has more violent crime per capita than the US. How about we look at all crime per capita? the US came in 17th on this list. First place went to Sweden, followed by New Zealand, the United Kingdom, Denmark, Belgium, Germany, Canada, the Netherlands, Finland and Norway. Interesting how Canada again beat the US in all crimes per capita. In fact, the only catagory in which Canada leads us in is murder per capita. In that list the US comes in 3rd with 5.63/100,000 while Canada comes in at 10th with 1.8/100,000. It should also be noted that the murder rate in the US has been on a steady decline since the early 80's. looking at statistics like that, i'm not sure Canada is a place i'd like to live.

see? now you've run into the same problem michael moore ran into. you lied and said something was true when it wasn't, now why should we believe anything else you said?

i'll repeat once more, the cure isn't more laws and less freedoms, it's personal responsability. it's knowing and accepting the consequences of your actions. it's what we scream for when we hear another car ran a red light and killed a biker. no scapegoats, no hiding behind "humans are rational only a very small percentage of their waking hours". less stupidity and more responsability.


Statistics 2001 (only year i could find complete)
Toronto - 61 murders - pop 2,481,000    murder rate = 2.45/100,000
Los Angeles - 240 murders - pop 3,554,000   murder rate = 6.75/100,000

therefore los angeles has a murder rate 2.75 times greater than toronto. not even close to 10 times as great.



if you look at the statistics, the US had a murder rate of 5.63/100,000 versus Canada's of 1.8/100,000, thus the US' is 3.13 times greater.

The 1/10th number is for comparable US/Canadian cities, as I stated.

The survey that you are refering to is the International Crime Victims Survey, which cover 11 crimes including bicycle theft, automobile vandalism, etc.

http://www.unicri.it/icvs/publications/pdf_files/key2000i/app4.pdf

The murder rate in Canada has also been falling. The rate, other things being equal, is related to the proportion of the population that are males between the ages of 16 and 30, since this is the demographic group that commits most violent crime. With the aging of the baby boomer in North America, this proportion of the population is falling in Canada and the US. So overall I believe the murder rate in the uS is probably still near 6x the overall Canadian rate.

I'm probably going to regret being drawn into this as well, especially since I haven't even seen the movie yet.

I agree that there are many, many problems in the U.S., one of them being violent crime. The violence on televison and movies disturbs me, and I find it hard to believe that kids who watch that stuff day in and day out aren't negatively affected.  Whatever the crime figures are, it would be nice if they were lower. I just don't believe banning guns would lower crime rates. If there is a demand for guns, illegal or not, there is going to be a supply. If somebody wants a gun in order to kill someone or rob a store, they will find a handgun whether they are legal or not. Just like if people want illegal drugs, they will get them. A gun ban may keep the law abiding store owner from having a gun, it's not going to stop anyone who is planning to commit a crime.

And while the U.S. may be the richest country in the world, I think that other countries are catching up. It's not like most of us our rolling in the dough here. I wish the economy was at a point where parents could spend more time parenting their kids. It used to be that families could make it with one parent working one full-time job. In almost every family I know, both parents work full time jobs. Of course some of them probably don't HAVE to, they do it so they can have a bigger house and nicer cars, but most people I know have to. (And I'm not saying it's not possible to do a good job raising kids this way, I'm just saying it is much more difficult.) I think if parents had more time to spend with their kids and to teach them responsibility instead of expecting schools to do it, we would have much less crime.

That being said, I'm still glad I live in the United States. We still have more freedoms here than any other country I know of, and I hope that we can improve some our problems- hopefully by figuring out what the root of the problem is, and not by making laws that restrict freedoms and just address the symptoms of deeper, underlying problems.

Well LA is right about the worst city for Crime in the US, it is much much worse than Toronto I have to say...size/population alone is not enough of a comparison...I know the population is close and I have been in both cities reasonably close to each other in recent times...Oct 99 in TO, and Jan 00 in LA...and Dammit LA is more crowded as well...by a huge margin...I guess stats lie about such things...oh my god Statistics lied...
Anyway Canada's huge welfare based society (more like europe than US) have made sure the Unemployed/Homeless/other dont neccesarily have to turn to crime. In the US especially LA the high number of un documented residents predominantly have to turn to crime due to the lower benifits handed out free by the govt.
Cool.
Srinath.

It all comes down to personal responsibility, and individual character.  As far as placing any legitimacy in fantasy films purporting to be documentaries, I go with Marvin Gaye's take (some of you kids may not know who Marvin Gaye was)..."believe half of what you read, none of what you hear"--- "I heard it through the grapevine"

Quote from: dmp221(some of you kids may not know who Marvin Gaye was)...

:o  :o  :o

OK OK... didn't mean to insult anyone's musical knowledge...it's just that I've dropped the names of some older musicians amongst younger folk and have sometimes gotten blank looks.  Glad you know a :) nd appreciate the "classics"!!

Quote from: Black SnowmanDid this "documentery" mention all of the progressive social reforms they were attempting at the school? Such as classes on developing indiviual morality? This kids were doing just as they were taught. They were forming a set of morals that satisfied them without regard for the rest of the worlds. condition.

Or consequences?

KevinC posted:

The US people generally seem to be so convinced that they have the greatest country in the world, they are not keen to accept any criticism. Having the highest infant mortality rates of any developed country, the highest incarceration rates, the highest violent crime rates, the lowest % of people with acceptable health care, huge areas of cities that are off-limit ghettos, the highest income disparity that results in a large poor population in such a rich country, the wastefulness, militarism and many other factors makes it look like a culture in crisis to me.

It is very scary that the US has such a dominant military and the need to bend the world to it's resource needs to fuel this aggressive, wastefull violent culture.

So did the Romans think of themselves. The Roman Empire lasted roughly 200 years before it began to deteriorate. Morally. America has lasted over 225 years. We need to watch ourselves.

Quote from: dmp221It all comes down to personal responsibility, and individual character.  As far as placing any legitimacy in fantasy films purporting to be documentaries, I go with Marvin Gaye's take (some of you kids may not know who Marvin Gaye was)..."believe half of what you read, none of what you hear"--- "I heard it through the grapevine"

I thought it was believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see? Oh well, just as applicable... :mrgreen:

Citizen Kane... or Black Hawk Down

Sorry if that's off topic for the topic  :o , but the question was what's the most fantastic film, or something like that?!

Thomas Jefferson just quoted John Locke when he wrote the declaration of independence (The first few lines anyway!). Good speach though, still at the core of rights today.

Stay Safe  :thumb:

scratch don't be selling the romans short.  they were around way longer than two hundred years.  if you're not counting the republic, or the eastern empire after the fall of the west, the empire began around 31bc and spanned to 476 AD.  we havn't quite caught up to the Romans yet...

I said the most relevent documentary, not the most truthful.  There is alot more in there than just gun control.  Capitalist society is not the kindest or most gentle in the world by far.  It is ruled by money and greed, two things that also help the deterioration of a society.  Michael Moore's work may be skewed to what he wants to say, but so is every statement you will ever hear in your lifetime.  I think it is awesome when somebody with mainstream exposure makes an educated statement against the majority like he did.  Don't confuse this with the bullshit spewed out by actors and musicians who just repeat something they heard.

Add my name to the list of people who will probably be sorry they weighed in here but I have to get in my $.02 before this whole thread gets nuked...
....First of all, it takes two incomes to make ends meet because of the repressive, confiscatory tax rates we face today. Most working wives/moms do so simply to pay a family's tax bill. On average, if you get to actually keep more than about 55% of what you earn, you are in the minority.
  Secondly, NOTHING the Government "hands out" is free. It's paid for by the men and women in this great Nation who get up and go to work every day because they ARE taking responsibility for themselves - their choices, their actions and their existence. The Government doesn't have it's own money to dole out out of it's benevolence. I think most people are more concerned with the $1.50 ATM fees than with the rediculous amounts of money that are "lifted" from their paychecks every month. I wish I could change the tax laws so that taxes were no longer deducted from payroll but everybody had to write a check every month or quarter for their tax bill. Then we'd see some changes.
 Thirdly, what does any of this have to do with GS's?

Quote from: KevinC

When I watch European, Mexican, South American or Canadian movies, they are mostly about the human experience, and generally have every little violence or shooting. I always think what an alien would think of the US from watching their movies...

Yes, El Mariachi, Mi Familia, and Blood In, Blood Out (all well-known Mexican movies), are very peaceful and non-violent productions. They definately don't have any gun-related violence....
Do you even want for me to go into Chinese, Korean, German, or French movies?

For the others. Do some economic and social studies before you form an opinion. Start with the formation of Hitler's socialist utopia, Germany. You might just find that it is more similar to the US and Canada then you would think.

Sorry, I didn't know I had to be an expert in economics and sociology and film studies and cultural studies in order to have an opinion. Maybe I shouldn't even be voting! And I'm sure none of us cretins can think of three well-known American movies that aren't violent. (Oh wait, I thought I agreed that there is too much violence in the American media. Hmmm... Maybe I just didn't like the tone.)

See, I knew I was going to regret being drawn into this discussion.

Quote... I go with Marvin Gaye's take (some of you kids may not know who Marvin Gaye was)..."believe half of what you read, none of what you hear"--- "I heard it through the grapevine"

Wasn't he shot to death?

Sorry, couldn't resist   :P

No disrespect intended. He was absolutely brilliant, and what a voice!

John

The Roman empire on the whole from start to finish lasted about 1000 years and they didn't get to be huge simply because everyone loved them.  You either joined or died.  Michael Moore is no different from any other politically motivated drone who bends subjects or situations to fit his mold and then he spews it as truth.  In case everyone hasn't noticed politics are far from problem free and no your vote doesn't matter on the larger scale.

to be fair seth, you're confusing the roman republic time frame with that of the empire.  completely different things.  roman as a station of power around for 1000 years, sure, i'll give you that.  but not the empire.

The small difference is that the romans tried to acheive greatness by exclusion, in breeding and disinheriting, while most great civilizations of today especially the US do so by assimilating, including and diversification. Huge difference there. The first was adopted by Russia earlier in the century and it looked like they were winning, the latter was adopted quite sub conciously by the US around the same time/earlier and has clearly out lived the other. I dont belive in the 200 year decay cycle, or even the 1000 year cycle...I'd say the last 1000+ years were building up to this point and it will improve from here on (albeit slowly and sometimes go backwards before going forward) and guess what the whole world will improve in lock step.
Cool.
Srinath.

Jeez-O-Peez what a thread this has turned into...it's interesting that, as an online community, we have all been generally so very cohesive and supportive of each other (like that great idea for everyone to send a thank-you post card to someone who helped one of us out of a jam..); and without really knowing each other, this mutual respect and support based solely on a common interest (motorcycling, and the GS in particular)...and yet, the moment a passionate, emotional OT subject arises, the fragmentation begins.  

I just hope that, whatever our individual political and social viewpoints, we can continue the mutual respect and support that makes this community unique.

Finally (phew!!) yes, I do believe Marvin Gaye was shot...which makes his musical view of skepticism no less relevant.  So many times, "facts" especially concerning political and social issues, turn out to be half-truths or complete fabrications.  Things are seldom as they appear on the surface.  Peace & friendship to all of you.

I think the fact that this thread has gone the way it has says something good about this board. Most of the other ones I've ever visited seem to turn into stupid flame wars when it comes to things like this. That's why they usually just lock political or "hot" topics.

It's nice to see we can have a civilized debate about serious issues too, and a little debate is a healthy thing.  :thumb:

:cheers:

John

I think that this hasn't turned into a flame war due to the demographic that rides a GS500 in the first place.  We aren't the type of people who are impulsive and make decisions to impress someone, hell if that were the case I would have bought a GSXR.  I think most of the people here usually think about something rationally before they do it. ........usually :nana:

Quoteto be fair seth, you're confusing the roman republic time frame with that of the empire. completely different things. roman as a station of power around for 1000 years, sure, i'll give you that. but not the empire

You're right, sorry I misphrased my initial comment.

So.  The gun control issue materializes and suddenly there's another work place shooting spree--this time in Chicago.  Bad timing for the American way.  Don't know if this latest depressed loser used a handgun or a rifle but I've heard that the difference between these two types of firearms is a hacksaw.  Otherwise, I would agree that handguns don't serve the purpose of the 2nd Amendment very well.  Problem is, you give an inch they'll take a mile.  

And, events in Iraq seem to prove that firearms in the hands of a determined foe can wreak havoc on the mighty American military.  Because, one only needs to win the political war.  Of course, it all depends on how much free reign the U.S. military is given to crush its opposition.  Wasn't that long ago that the U.S. Air Force was allowed to carry out nuclear strikes on enemy population centers to achieve total victory.  

However, in the event of a future totalitarian American Government, I'm sure the domestic opposition of American firearm owners can count on the full support of today's international coalition of fake peaceniks to hamstring Government forces.  Right?

Discussion is good, though.  I am curious what social benefits I could expect to receive were I to relocate to a more "progressive" country such as...Canada, for instance.  I know some of the cost:  Double the price per gallon of gas.  A 42% devaluation in the monetary unit.  What are my benefits, Canada?  Are you going to pay my college education?  Are you going to put a roof over my head?  AM I GOING TO GET A FREE LUNCH?

I think today's problems with society is parenting...or lack thereof.  There is no discipline involved in raising most of today's children.  When I was young (I'm 31 now) I knew that I had serious trouble waiting for me if I did anything bad at school.  When I went to the store with my parents, I knew I had better not scream and run around like a lunatic.  I was punished if I did so.  I was not "beaten" but I was spanked.  This taught me right from wrong.  I see so many "parents" in the mall whose children get their way just because the parent doesn't want to discipline their children.  This trains the child that they should get their way all of the time and that there are no negative repercussions for doing wrong.  Over the span of years like this, teens think they deserve to get whatever they want.  Lack of morals and structure allows them to do whatever they want to get their way.

If someone pisses them off, they simply eliminate that person.  Afterall, they have no knowledge of punishment for their actions.  If parents were held responisble for their minor children's actions, they would start keeping their children in line.  

Some kids around here were caught vandalizing a half-built subdivision.  They did over $200,000 worth of damage.  The courts made their parents pay the bill since the kids (13-15 years old) had no source of income.  I know my child would not see the light of day until that was paid off.  And when he was old enough to get a job, he would certainly be paying me back for his stupidity.

Lack of discipline growing up leads to lack of respect towards others.  Lack of personal respect  leads to violence and other crimes towards others.

I think every law-abiding adult should be required to carry a gun at all times.  How many school shooting do you think we would have if you knew that 100% of the adults in that school had a gun?  How many banks would be robbed if you knew every single person in line behind you carried a gun?  

Also tougher punishment for violent criminals are needed most.  The people that commit violent crimes know that in most cases, prison is the worst that will happen to them.  Cable TV and 3 healthy meals a day.  That's better than a lot of these people have at home.  Put them in a small cell with no windows.  No contact with anyone.  Basic food to keep you alive.  Murderers get one appeal soon after being convicted.  After that, it's time for capitol punishment.  No waiting on death row for 20 years living on my tax money.  If people had punishment worth fearing, they would commit less crimes.  But the Liberals would never allow this to happen.

QuoteDiscussion is good, though. I am curious what social benefits I could expect to receive were I to relocate to a more "progressive" country such as...Canada, for instance. I know some of the cost: Double the price per gallon of gas. A 42% devaluation in the monetary unit. What are my benefits, Canada? Are you going to pay my college education? Are you going to put a roof over my head? AM I GOING TO GET A FREE LUNCH?

Well Gisser, Canada isnt perfect, but we try not too let our people starve to death while the rest of us get obese, we make sure our seniors are cared for, we have a health care system that provides nearly equal treatment for the poorest person, to the richest, in my opinion racism is not nearly as prevalant. If you were struggling we would put a roof over your head, and im sure you could score a free lunch from a good majority of our beautiful countries 32 million residents.  We might be damn near socialist, but Im sure if we had  265million people living in Canada with a tax base that large, we would help the world out a little, not make it our Buddha Loves You. Oh and I will pay high gas prices any day of the week if it means an innocent family in the middle east doesnt have to lose a son to an unnecsisary war. I love America as much as the next non american does(is that positive or negative?) but I love living in a country where I feel safe walking down the street in armani and prada at 2:00 in the morning without being jacked. Im sorry all you republican, right wing people, a mixed (socialist/democratic) society works pretty well as far as I am concerned. God Bless a country where you can live so free. The system is flawwed but as close to perfect as anyone besides Sweden had got it.  :cheers:

PS: Why dont we rag on a really shaZam! country, rather than one who supplies the you with water, electricity, and countless other resources you all have exausted in that oh so powerful nation. DAmn, give Canada a few million soldiers and a huge Navy, and we would have you guys bent over like a white collar criminal in a blue collar prison.

PEACE :cheers:

Give me a break.  No one starves to death in the US, that's just stupid.

Your health care system is universal, that's great, but it comes at the expense of quality, timeliness, and innovation.  Oh yeah and if every country had price controls on the drugs that you guys do, there wouldn't be any drugs.  On behalf of the US citizens who pay realistic prices for drugs and subsidize you freeloaders, you're welcome.

The only people without a roof over their heads in this country are those who choose to do so.  Same goes for food.  There are shelters, soup kitchens, free clinics, etc all over the place.  The differnece is here we don't pay outrageous taxes so the gov't can supply it for everyone.  Here that's supplied by a combination of gov't, community groups, and churches.  Oh and those who actually get themselves educated and get jobs actually take on the responsibility of providing these things for themselves.  novel idea.

Go to Sweden and read the news stories about how they have to change their socialist policies on medical leave because such a huge number of people are freeloading with bogus medical problems.  

"give Canada a few million soldiers and a huge Navy".  Sorry chief nobody "gave" us ours, we built it.  If you want one, build it yourself.

Fact is the only way countries like yours can get away with your socialist policies is because countries like ours do all the heavy lifting.  We're the ones who send troops to places that need them, we're the ones making all the technological and scientific innovations, we're the ones who provide the foriegn aid, we're the ones who get called in to solve all the world's problems even when they're not ours.  

jeff

Ok, this has gotten way out of hand. What started as a statement of someone's skewed view has turned into a US vs. Canada pissing contest. I wasn't going to get involved, but some of the comments I read were made by someome either being stubborn, uneducated, or just plain dumb.

First off, being a red blooded American, I was appauled to see some of the critisms in this post. I'm the first to say the US is not perfect, but (And this is a big but) we are infact the most generous. Our National Debt grows each day. Not just from the war in Iraq, but from spending hundreds of millions in aid to smaller third-world countries each day.  WE've given Trillions of dollars in disaster aid as well as relief from famine and disease over the years.

We're usually the first, and sometimes to only country to send our young soldiers off to fight and die for other countries conflicts. And you say we're the most aggressive? Maybe you recall a couple of Wars by the name of World Wars I and II ? In the second war, we had our hands full with the Japanese but decided to split our military to help Europe with the Nazis. There is no doubt that if we had turned our backs, we would all be speaking German right now.Even Canada. And what about the Korean war? That's just a few instances. There are many more.... Do yourselfs a favor and read up on a little history.

The fact is Canada should thank there lucky stars that they are our neighbors. Due to my business , I frequent Canada often. What I've seen is a nation obsessed with the American lifestyle. 80% of all Television programing is made up of American shows and commercials. Over 60% of all commercial products used are from the US. The Canadian economy almost solely depends on the US market. Which only makes up around 3% of the products the US consumes.

How much aid does Canada contribute? And what about Military aid? God forbid Canada evers gets invaded. With a meager armed force roughly totally 90,000, who do you think they will ask for help? Actually you probably won't even have to ask. America will be there for you. Would you do the same for us? We practically have to beg to get your assistance on any military conflict for fears that you may piss someone off.

Try reading an article from one of your own sons...

Commentary by Gordon Sinclair.
Originally written for a Toronto newspaper, it was broadcast on June 5, 1973 on CFRB radio in Toronto, Canada.

America: The Good Neighbor.  
 

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the  Americans as the most generous and possibly the least  appreciated people on all the earth.  Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and  Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the  Americans who poured in billions of dollars and  forgave other billions in debts. None of these  countries is today paying even the interest on its  remaining debts to the United States.  

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their  reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets  of Paris. I was there. I saw it.  

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59  American communities were flattened by tornadoes.  Nobody helped.  The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars! into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the  decadent, warmongering Americans.  

I'd like to see just one of those countries that  is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country  in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo  Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?  If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the  International lines except Russia fly American Planes?  Why does no other land on earth even consider putting  a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese  technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German  technocracy, and you get automobiles.  You talk about American technocracy, and you find  men on the moon -! not once, but several times -  and safely home again.  You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs  right in the store window for everybody to look at.  Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American  dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India  were breaking down through age, it was the Americans  who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and  the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an  old caboose. Both are still broke.  I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced  to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name  me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside  help even during the San Francisco earthquake.   Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one  Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get  kicked around. They will come out of this thing with  their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled  to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating  over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of  those."  

-G.Sinclair


I'm now climbing down from my soap box. I hope this was insightful and educating.
Sincerely,

J.Jones
RedFuelDlux

God Bless America

Quote from: Rich500

Quote
Big snip...
DAmn, give Canada a few million soldiers and a huge Navy, and we would have you guys bent over like a white collar criminal in a blue collar prison.

PEACE :cheers:

I love it when Canadians say this.... They can get by without the expense of having a navy or airforce or Army or marines...cos they know the US will never let anything happen to them from external sources...All they have to do is be pacifists and provide the US with a little electricity or water (as they claim)...
Cool.
Srinath.

Quote from: RedFuelDlux
Big snip...

When the railways of France, Germany and India  were breaking down through age, it was the Americans  who rebuilt them.
-G.Sinclair

Small Snip...

I now climbing down from my soap box. I hope this was insightful and educating.
Sincerely,

J.Jones
RedFuelDlux

I honestly dont remember rail roads being rebuilt by americans in India. However when we had serious floods in the south back in the 70's I remember buying Kraft cheese and cans of celery and other soup which were given as aid (but somehow our government made us pay for it???) but it was pretty inexpensive.
Cool.
Srinath.

Oh yeah? Just wait 'till we unleash the secret stealth attack beavers on you guys!  ;)

RedFuelDlux mentioned that most of our television programming comes from the US, and this is very true. If you've ever seen Canadian tv shows you'd understand why!   :?  I think the fact that we get so many US channels  is a good part of the reason why some Canadians have such a skewed view of the USA. How often do you see a POSITIVE story about anything on the news? It's doom and gloom that sells.  If all we see of the US is the bad side (ie the news) then people might get the impression it sucks.

Now obviously, people are free to draw their own conclusions, and anybody with a modicum of intelligence knows what they see on the news doesn't represent the whole of a country...but I think that may have something to do with some Canadian's attitude towards the USA.

As for the ,who has done more for whom, and who's been the better "earth tenant", it's just silly to argue about that. Canada has done great things, as has the US. Getting into "oh yeah, well WE did this!" "well we did that!" is just pointless...and for the record, Canadians fought and died in Korea too.

Canada is a great country, it has it's problems, but on the whole it's a wonderful place to live. The United States is also a great country, it also has it's problems, but it's obviously a great place to live too. Americans are probably the most patriotic people in the world, if the US was  a horrible place, do you really think they'd be like that?  :P

In the grand scheme of things, we have it pretty good here in Canada AND the US compared to a good chunk of the world. We've come a long way in spite of what goes on day to day. As messed up as our world seems to be sometimes, remember that it wasn't so long ago that people here were often killed just because of the colour of their skin. Go back further in time across "the pond" and they used to publicly torture and dismember people in front of thousands of cheering residents. In spite of how bad things seem, we ARE making progress.  :thumb:

Ultimately, we're all in this together.   :cheers:

John

nice post John  :cheers:

Wow, this has gone bad!

But this is just plane (sic) wrong!

"Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?"  RedFuelDlux

Have you ever heard of Airbus? You know, the aircraft company the US governement accuses of unfair trade practices because they are huge competition for the militarily supported Boeing? They make very nice planes, and are used extensively world wide. They are also presently building the next generation of large passenger plane that Boeing is not pursuing. 555 passengers.

http://www.airbus.com/dynamic/about/index_h.asp

Wow, the DC10 and Tristar are obsolete, and being removed from service. The Chinese will be the ones to return to the moon.

COLIN MOCHRIE APOLOGIZES ON OUR BEHALF  
 On behalf of Canadians everywhere I'd like to offer an apology to the United States of America.
We haven't been getting along very well recently and for that, I am truly sorry.

I'm sorry we called George Bush a moron. He is a moron but, it wasn't nice of us to point it out. If it's any consolation, the fact that he's a moron shouldn't reflect poorly on the people of America. After all it's not like you actually elected him.

I'm sorry about our softwood lumber. Just because we have more trees than you doesn't give us the right to sell you lumber that's cheaper and better than your own.

I'm sorry we beat you in Olympic hockey. In our defense I guess our excuse would be that our team was much, much, much, much better than yours.

I'm sorry we burnt down your white house during the war of 1812. I notice you've rebuilt it! It's Very Nice.

I'm sorry about your beer. I know we had nothing to do with your beer but, we Feel your Pain.

I'm sorry about our waffling on Iraq. I mean, when you're going up against a crazed dictator, you wanna have your friends by your side. I realize it took more than two years before you guys pitched in against Hitler, but that was different. Everyone knew he had weapons.

And finally on behalf of all Canadians, I'm sorry that we're constantly apologizing for things in a passive-aggressive way which is really a thinly veiled criticism. I sincerely hope that you're not upset over this.
We've seen what you do to countries you get upset with.

Thank you.

Real Audio live recording of above: Mochrie Live

http://www.22minutes.com/realwrapper.php?target=apology_256.rm

Quote from: glenn9171I think today's problems with society is parenting...or lack thereof.  

Exactly...by the age of 4 or 5, a child's basic values should be well founded, and then fine-tuned by good parents/teachers/clergy/other positive role models.  

Since you need a license to fish, a license to own a dog, a license to drive, etc etc., I'd require a "parenting license"...with a lengthy application, background check, and a test (assuming of course I was elected king).. :lol:

It's easy to criticize, but I think Canada is a very good neighbor to us, as we are to them.  Overall, we could both do a lot worse; and we both have a lot of things to fix.
BTW, The bogus movie that started all this still sucks...in my humble opinion.  :bs:

I knew I'd hear this "hour has 22 minutes"...I knew you were going to be the one to say it too...Canadian TV programming is actually very very good...pity the US doesn't seem to have a appreciation for biting wit or sarcasm or pickle up your butt humor, When John Belushi type drunken brawling is considered funny the scythe like John Morgan is lost in the noise. Lovely...BTW I happen to like watery beer...But if you dont, I dont see why you can buy Grolsh or heineken or fosters.
Cool.
Srinath.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but it doesn't seem like Canada was getting ragged on that badly. And I agree that the U.S. has problems, but I don't think we are nearly as horrible as most of the rest of the world thinks. I also don't think we are as perfect as some people say.

But honestly, I think people who don't live in the United States have a rather skewed opinion about the crime here. (Probably from watching all those violent American movies that people from all over the world seem to be eager to watch.) Yes, we have too much crime. But I think you could walk down the street in your Armani and Prada in practically anyplace in the U.S. at any time of the day or night and you wouldn't be jacked. Of course, there are also A FEW areas in the U.S. I wouldn't go near day or night. As a woman, I have never felt uncomfortable walking alone anywhere in my city, even at night. And that is more than I can say for a lot of places I've traveled outside the U.S., where women were advised not to walk alone, even in broad daylight.

Also, I couldn't care less what you wear, but as an American, I couldn't mention wearing Armani or Prada without being ragged on for being materialistic and don't I know that there are people starving in the world.

Also, not to minimize the racism problems here, it seems like racism is a problem most anywhere in the world where different groups of people are trying to live together. And I think slowly but surely, things are improving here.

I really don't think anyone starves here unless they are anorexic. And obesity is equal opportunity here.

I'll shut up now.

JohnNS,

Nice post. I started feeling all warm and fuzzy inside  :kiss:

UNTIL

some damn Canadian felt he had to insult our beer. NOW my panties are really in a bunch.  :x I'll admit Miller and Budweiser beers aren't so good, but we have great beer here in Wisconsin. MMMmmm. And I've had some good beers in Colorado, and some good beers from Washington too.

I saw Bowling back when it came out.
When I first saw it and I wanted to get rid of all handguns but in reflection it really does not show both sides of the coin.
I do not own a gun or feel the need to carry one in my wonderful city that does not always love me(LA) but I would not take away the rights of those who do need a weapon to feel safe. I am not a very small or a woman and I do not know what it is like to feel vulnerable and I hear for some that carrying a weapon helps.
I would not dare take away there right to do so because some jerk kid decides he is going to show the world how mad he is by shooting up his school. There will always be morons with weapons and I think banning them will only incite more, less violent crime.
Imagine how many more home break-ins there are in countries with hand gun bans.
my .02

Yep, people are just silly little monkeys everywhere, basically. We fight and quarrel and kill each other. Having guns so handy just makes it far too easy to escalate the violence to the fatal level.

I travel a lot, and I gotta admit that the US is the only country I've ever had the police stop me and tell me I don't want to go there when driving about. This happened to me twice in the US, once in Chicago, and once in Detroit.

You left out buffalo...Most canadians like to rag on that...and my answer to you and to them has always been...these cities are so close to canada....coincidence???
Cool.
Srinath.

Quote from: KevinC
Have you ever heard of Airbus? You know, the aircraft company the US governement accuses of unfair trade practices because they are huge competition for the militarily supported Boeing? They make very nice planes, and are used extensively world wide. They are also presently building the next generation of large passenger plane that Boeing is not pursuing. 555 passengers.

http://www.airbus.com/dynamic/about/index_h.asp

Wow, the DC10 and Tristar are obsolete, and being removed from service. The Chinese will be the ones to return to the moon.

For the record genius, I was quoting Gordon Sinclair and it was published in 1973. If you took the time to actually read it rather than jump to a retort, maybe you would've realized that.

And as for the huge list of Canada's accomplishments...very impressive.  :lol: LOL
And how is their Space Program doing??

ok, so you've been warned by police to avoid certain areas in some US cities before.  Shocker.  Nobody here is saying there aren't bad areas that ought to be avoided.  What's absurd is that you're basically saying there aren't any bad areas to be avoided anywhere in Canada.  That's silly.  Even Stockholm, the capital of your beloved Sweden, has areas that are scary.  I've been there.  

jeff

Quote from: LauraMaybe I'm missing something here, but it doesn't seem like Canada was getting ragged on that badly. And I agree that the U.S. has problems, but I don't think we are nearly as horrible as most of the rest of the world thinks. I also don't think we are as perfect as some people say.

But honestly, I think people who don't live in the United States have a rather skewed opinion about the crime here. (Probably from watching all those violent American movies that people from all over the world seem to be eager to watch.)

You know US is the only country where people dont attempt to kill you when you say things like the system sucks, or the govt sucks, or stuff like that...Ironically Canada (the only other country I have said it in) is exactly the opposite...They are so awfully proud of everything...the health care, their roads, the taxes and the fact that they buy a lot for the big tax $$$ etc etc...and when you say I hate canada...they automatically assume you hate the weather... India is just as bad too, and they cant imagine why I dont want to live there and get this, they love the weather too...They talk of sea breeze...Yea its freaking 105 in the shade, with sea breeze its what a very cool 101 only...oh great and that is in winter...... of course anyone who has lived in the US before they got too old (20-25) and had families etc and got too many ties...never ever think of going back...Free speech works in so many ways...It can be opressed by the govt or opressed by society...
Cool (101 F).
Srinath.

Yep, you're right, I don't read Gordon Sinclair. Was that the last time any one outside the US said anything good, 1973? I'm amazed people from the US drag out that tired old right wing Canadian at the slightest provocation.

Canada is far from perfect, and I don't think anyone here gets too upset when people point that out. We have too much crime, and too much racism and bigotry, and problems with health care and social infrastructure like everywhere else in the world.

These are all complex and confusing issues, with no magic solutions. Some countries seem to be doing a slightly better job than others. Norway has a lot of good points, but I'm sure there are problems too. Like whaling.

And our modest space program is doing fine. We are doing northern lights research, and designed and built the space shuttle arm. We fly experiments on US and European missions. There are only 30 million Canadians, and we don't have the resources of a country with 10 times our population.

http://www.space.gc.ca/asc/eng/about/csa_organization/csm_complete.asp

We even have our own rocket used for auroura research:

http://www.bristol.ca/BlackBrant.html

First of all...thanks Jeff P and Laura  :oops:

*sigh*  now....

QuoteAnd as for the huge list of Canada's accomplishments...very impressive.  LOL
And how is their Space Program doing??

Yeah, you're right RedFuel. I mean....it's not like insulin, radio broadcasting, the pacemaker, the electron microscope...to name but a few...are important accomplishments.  :bs:  As far as the space program is concerned... a number of Canadian engineers made a significant contribution to your space program in its early days (and continue to do so).

As I said before, it's silly to argue over things like that. It's even more so when it's uninformed.     :roll:

John

I'm sure I can find few other inventions from many other countries if I did a simple internet search, but instead of arguing a point or trying to prove someone wrong. I was simply adding to this discussion.

So who is better than who? I really don't care. We are all obviously patriotic and love each of our countries. Being neighbors and so similar, we need to get along support one another non the less. Especially in these times.

As for the original topic of gun control.  My idea of gun control is using both hands.  :thumb:  

Remember, Guns don't kill people. People kill people

If there were no guns then peopl would just use knives. If there were no knives people would use bats. No bats, then fists.

Violence is in the human nature . With so many people on this planet right  now, why are we so surprised at the increasing level.

My 2 cents.... I'm done

OK I love this...30 million is the population of canada...they have more natural resources than the US...30 million is the population of California...they have 1/100 the resources...and Cslifornia is the 5th largest economy in the world...and Canada is nowhere...Ironic isnt it...Not saying anything really....Just observing...
Cool.
Srinath.

Canada DOES have teh GS500... :thumb:

I've had the unpleasant experience of watching a few of Michael Moore's films. What I fail to understand is why he still lives in the US... if this country has done so much injustice to him then why doesn't he leave? He paints himself to be this humble left winger... then why does this conniving bastard live in a 1.9 million dollar home? F*ck Michael Moore.... f*ck him right in the ear....

Ahh, just like a capitilist American to try and reduce everyting to money! And without looking up any facts either...

Canada is one of the top 7 economies in the world, and ranks second out of those 7 in GDP per capita, with only the US ahead. Canada supplies 22.9% of the US trade. It has one of the lowest income disparities of the G7 contries.

The US has the highest income disparity, highest infant mortality (6.75 per thousand live births), the largest external debt of the G7 countries.

(CIA World Fact Bokk: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/)

Homicide rate in Israel, Switzerland and Austria : 1.2, 1.1, 1.5
(European countries with least restrictive gun laws)
Homicide rates in Luxembourg, Denmark, Germany : 2.1, 5.0, 1.8
(European countries with most restrictive gun laws)

Total homicide rate in United States : 7.3
Homicide rate in United States, excluding gun use : around 2.4 (one-third)
Total homicide rate in Canada : 2.0

(U.N. Demographic Yearbooks, U.N. Commission on Crime Prevention and Criminal Justice's Vienna Session, Swiss national police)

So maybe it isn't just the guns. Americans just like to kill each other.

Quote from: RedFuelDluxIf there were no guns then peopl would just use knives. If there were no knives people would use bats. No bats, then fists.

i don't know about you guys, but i'd much rather have someone chasing me with a bat or a knife than a .45.  but hey, maybe that's just me.  my only problem with hand guns is that they are used for one purpose, and one purpose alone, shooting other people.  who hunts with a handgun?  some people argue that people sport shoot with handguns, and hence there is a purpose why they should be legal.  well hey, i sport smoke pot, does that mean it should be legal as well?  our government doesn't think so.  handguns are just useless and dangerous.  getting rid of them would stop quite a bit of crime and accidents in homes.  you're not protection your family by having a gun laying around the house, you're endangering them.

Australia banned handguns and made people get rid of most other firearms a few years back.  What did that get them?  An astronomical increase of robberies and the murder rate rose slightly.  It seems that criminals failed to turn in their weapons (imagine that) while law-abiding citizens handed theirs over.  The criminals knew that everyone else was now defenseless and had a field day.  

If a lack of guns makes society so safe, why don't any of the left-winders have signs in their yards proclaiming their anti-gun stance?  "This house contains no weapons of any kind.  We are anti-violent."  Because it would be suicide.  The put signs up stating how they are pro-life or pro-choice.  The proudly display their other political stances.  Why not their view on weapons and protection?  

There will always be law breakers in a human society.  No matter what we ban.  They banned alcohol and people just kept on drinking, just not out in the open.  Speeding is illegal, but we all do it nearly every day.  Bank robbery is illegal, but they get robbed every day of the week somewhere or another.  If you make owning a gun illegal, only criminals will have guns.  They will not just walk down to the local courthouse and turn over their weapons.  If you think they will, you are sadly mistaken.  

And guess what?  Canadians still have guns.  They just don't tell anyone about it.

As with most things, you have to look pretty closely at the Australian numbers to see that it doesn't prove anything. While they did have an increase in violennt crime, it wasn't "astronomical", or inded out of line with what has been happening in Britain with no change in the gun control laws. Crime rates go up and down the 20% experienced in Australia, with few good explanations. It is not like the order of magnitude difference in the homicide rate between the US and other G7 countries, were the factor of 5 to 15 appears to be real.

Indeed, no one can really expalin the huge decrease in US violent crime since '93, although both the pro and anti gun lobbies do their best to claim it.

Yes, Canadians still have guns (29% of households). It is almost an entirely rural and largely western Canada issue. They are 90% rifles. Hand gun ownership in Canada has been tightly controlled for a long time, except for the leakage across the border.

Because of the rapidly decreasing crime rates in the US and Canada, you have to be very careful that you compare the same years. The numbers I posted above are an example: the Canadian number was from '92, and the US number from 2000. Burned again!

i never said i was against gun ownership, i'm against handguns.  i'm from wisconsin and now live in minnesota.  hunting is almost a national pastime here.  if you want a gun so you can hunt, and practice; by all means, go ahead.  these guns have purposes, and are used in a responcible fashion (usually).  whereas handguns, as i stated, are made for shooting people.  yeah, "criminals" won't turn their handguns in, but think of would be criminals that now won't be because they can't walk into a store, throw down $100 bucks and get an easily concealable semi-auto glock.  or even the kids who can't go through daddy's nightstand and pull out his .45 to play with.  with guns, if you don't keep them locked up, you're endangering your family; but if you do keep them locked up, good luck getting them out quick enough and loading them to stop a robber.  so why even own the stupid thing?  at best you're making a slim to none effort of stopping a theif, and at worst, you're killing your family.  it just doesn't add up.

Quote from: KevinCAhh, just like a capitilist American to try and reduce everyting to money! And without looking up any facts either...

Canada is one of the top 7 economies in the world, and ranks second out of those 7 in GDP per capita, with only the US ahead. Canada supplies 22.9% of the US trade. It has one of the lowest income disparities of the G7 contries.

Quote

No its not...
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2001rank.html
Its 13th and probably has fallen since 2001...cos well the US economy has fallen and the canadian economy was just getting carried by the US economy...So to quote...
"Ahh, just like a capitilist American to try and reduce everyting to money! And without looking up any facts either..."
Ha ha... :mrgreen:  :mrgreen:  :mrgreen:
Still smaller than CA...and I beleive NY and NJ and anyone else care to beat canada...(Dont take that literally...no idea where NJ and NY are on the global scale) oh yea the french...imagine that the french beat some one...
Cool.
Srinath

Where are you finding Glocks for $100?  I want to know as I will go there tomorrow and buy a truckload.  Try closer to $800-1000 in most places for a good one, including magazine and a decent case.  The magazine for Glocks costs more than $100.

I think they go for $100 used...Just 1 or 2 times...Just like new...
Cool.
Srinath.

Quote from: glenn9171Where are you finding Glocks for $100?  I want to know as I will go there tomorrow and buy a truckload.  Try closer to $800-1000 in most places for a good one, including magazine and a decent case.  The magazine for Glocks costs more than $100.

Last used glock I saw was $500.  Too rich for my blood.  I only buy cheap guns.  :mrgreen:

Just wondering....if you really put US violent crime statistics, like murder, under a microscope, it just might reveal that a significant number of these murders are being committed by illegal immigrants...and if that's true, then maybe credit should revert to the perps individual countries of origin, which would lessen the impact on the US murder rate.  
Wow, overnight we'd all be statistically a lot safer!! :thumb:

edited. Decided I had said enough on the subject.

ABANDON THREAD!

Yep, I screwed up again, it was 13th in 2001. The Canadian economy has actually been growing very nicely in the last two years, despite the shrinking US economy.

If California's economy is larger than Canada's, which is quite possible, the rest of the US economy must suck. It would only take another 9 states like California to make up the rest of the US GDP. What are the other 38 doing?

Where the hell did the USA vs Canada arguments come from?  That's retarded.  Moore was trying to get people to ask why Canada has so many fewer murders than America when their number of guns per capita are about the same.  He was not trying to say Canada is better than America.  Though he would probably pee himself if he knew he could actually incite this much emotion on that topic, because let's face it, it's good for business.

He's also not against the right to bear arms.  He's a member of the NRA.  For real.  In fact, that was the other important message he was trying to push through with the whole Canada thing.  They have guns and don't kill each other, so obviously outlawing guns isn't the only answer.

He did manage to do a good job making fun of a few fanatical inbred rednecks though.  I couldn't find any intelligent reason for that other than increase the value of his movie in the eyes of left wingers, since they're the only ones that will buy the movie anyway.  In fact, I'd wager that most right-wingers that trash the movie have never watched it.

Anyway, I think the most important message that came from the movie was the part about Fear propoganda in the US.  It really is true that people everywhere in this country are paranoid.  Most of the people I know won't even go to certain restaurants because they're in a sketchy part of town (usually an area with a high concentration of racial minorities).  Our country is pathetic when it comes to how freaking paranoid we are.  We live in probably the safest country in the world when you add everything together, yet people are scared of their own shadows.

What most people do not realize is that most murders in the US are comitted by drug dealers/users.  It's not like John Doe just flips a coin in the morning and says "Tails...looks like I will shoot someone at random today".  There are some loonies that shoot former co-workers (USPS employees and such), but the vast majority of murders in large cities are drug related.  And most of the murders in the US are in or near large cities.  These are also the same people that would not give up their guns of they were made illegal.

By the way, my brother-in-law bought a Glock 10mm with an extra magazine and a padded hard-side case for $850 after tax.  A box of 50 cartridges was included in that price.

isn't $850 a little steep for a glock?  I know 10mm is a high energy chambering, but I recently picked up a Glock32C - .357 sig (also a high-powered round) compensated for $580 and the second magazine is a standard feature with glocks.  At least where I come fron, a high capacity mag might go for $100 to 200, but not a 10rd.

There is a point to inexpensive weapons, and that is that the second amendment protects the right of ALL americans to own firearms... not just the rich.  Outlawing all but the most expensive and difficult to find weapons would be unconstitutional because it would apply the second amendment only to those with wealth.  There is precedent here... Saturday Night Specials are the most prominent example.

"A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

That's about all this card-carrying NRA member (and registered voter) has to say about that.

peace :cheers:

I will try to make this my last post on this thread. Just some thoughts inspired by scanning the 5 pages of posts:
The U.S. Air National Guard doesn't train morons to fly fighter jets. W's college entrance scores were higher than Algore's - who failed to pass his BAR exam.
It may have been stated already, I'm not sure since I don't have enough attention span to read every word of every post but, the second amendment has NOTHING to do with hunting ducks or target shooting. What business is it of my Government, or anybody else for that matter, what type of gun I choose to own? If I am a law abiding citizen of the U.S.A., I am supposed to be free to protect myself, my family and my property. So many of the violent death stats, et al are skewed because they include instances of a home owner shooting an intruder. These cases are much more prevalent than cases of an accidental shooting of the neighbor kid or what have you. They just don't make as good of news.

OK, one more. But, really it's still the previous one. I just forgot to mention something. I know this was just quoted from Colin What'sHisName from that US comedy show but, actually, we DID elect Bush. Whether he won the "popular vote" or not, he got more Electoral votes which is the way we've been, (or beeen if you're Canadian - sorry, cheap shot), electing our Presidents down here for quite some time. If Algore could've just won HIS OWN state of Tennessee and his former boss's state of Arkansas, Florida would've been moot.

Delta88 the thing is, it should be stated what kind of guns you can and cannot use.  we already can't buy fully auto assault rifles, why not raise hell over that?  for some reason americans think the constitution is the greatest piece of governmental literature ever written.  jesus christ, it's almost 230 years old.  what other country has been following the same documents for government as long as us?  the script is outdated, the wording is confusing and open to too much debate.  we really need to get a new document.

Quote from: KevinCYep, I screwed up again, it was 13th in 2001. The Canadian economy has actually been growing very nicely in the last two years, despite the shrinking US economy.

If California's economy is larger than Canada's, which is quite possible, the rest of the US economy must suck. It would only take another 9 states like California to make up the rest of the US GDP. What are the other 38 doing?

Well California even with the total economic bust has enough clout to be the 5th in the world. It used to be 4th in 00 and 01 when the boom was on. Canada posted 3% in the last 2 years, Many other countries in that list (India, China etc and more have posted much more...double digit or near that) I believe Canada may have improved but I dont think it made much headway in ranking on the other 3rd world countries on that list. Now California has 30 million population...It only takes 9 times that population to make up the population of the US...Coincidence...So I guess 9 California's will make the US, and the other 38 states are doing right about average...(Nelson Muntz doing ... ha ha...).
That makes the spot light on CA rather cruel...if it goes belly up it will probably take down much of the worlds economy with it...but that is true for any 30 million strong high productivity economy... So I guess they will elect Aaaaa .. hnold and he'll terminate the problem...
Cool.
Srinath.

Quotefor some reason americans think the constitution is the greatest piece of governmental literature ever written. jesus christ, it's almost 230 years old. what other country has been following the same documents for government as long as us? the script is outdated, the wording is confusing and open to too much debate. we really need to get a new document.

The reason America (and its constitution) has thrived for the past 230 years is because the constitution IS one of the greatest documents ever written!!!  It provides a mechanism by which the people (not the politicians) can update it.  The constitution can be expanded, edited, or even DELETED by amendments (21 repealed 18 ).  The US constitution, as amended, is ONLY 32 YEARS OLD!!! (26th amendment in 1971).

In political policy, as in life... evolve or die.  Thank God America chose to evolve.

peace

Yep, which brings me back to where I started: the  most successful economy in the world, with the highest homicide rate of any of the G7 countires by somehwere close to an order of magnitude, the higest income disparity (and GS listers are probably mostly on the wrong side of that) (the lower 10% of the US population earns 1.8% of the income), the highest infant mortality rate of the G7 nations, and the largest % of the population with substandard medical coverage with the worlds most expensive per capita health care system.

The statistics used to indicate that the violent crime rate in the US is anywhere near the reat of the world (International Victims Survey) were based on the survey of 1000 people in the US and 20,000 in other countires, and included bicycle theft!

I've spent way too much time in California, and if that is the best of the US, you are welcome to it. I seem to remember you complaining about it also Srinath?

The homicide rate in Washington was 69.3 per 100,000 in '98, while Ottawa, the Canadian capital was at 1.6.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/153988.stm

The second or third leading causes of death for the ages 4 to 15 in the US is homicide. Wow.

I prtefer the Canadian compromise of a somewhat kinder, gentler nation at the expense of some economic perfomance perhaps, but more time to enjoy life. You know the French, and actually everyone in the world except the Japanese, have way more holidays then Americans? I think I know who is enjoying life more...

Some good sites:

http://lynx.let.hokudai.ac.jp/COE21/presentation/1stcefom21/Daly&Wilson.pdf
http://www.drugwardistortions.org/distortion13.htm
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/hosb502.pdf

I'm done.

I have to go with Kevin C on the holiday issue.

I haven't read it, but "The Overworked American" by Juliet Schor is on my list.  Has anybody gotten into this book?  As I understand it, its primarily composed of statistical arguments (of which I am not fond - statistics are EXTREMELY maleable and can be bent to one's own end easily - this line is proof of that  ;)  ).  Still, I believe in the basic premise of the book.  Americans (myself included) need to chill out more and enjoy life... perhaps on the back of a GS500?  :cheers:

Christ allmighty! KevinC.... Did you get kicked off of the Debate Team in school and decide to make up for it in this thread??

Fine! Canada is better than the US in virtually all ways conceivable! Canadians have superior intellect, skills, morals and a model society for all nations to behold!

There I said it! Are you happy now?? Now end this ridiculous thread!


All hail Canada!!!! America cowers to your might!

Guess that means we won!  

Just kidding   :P

Actually, Zarathustra, I DO have a problem with my not being allowed to own a fully automatic weapon, (legally, that is). If I have broken NO laws, what business is it of Big Brother's to dictate what I can and cannot own. Whether it's my firearm(s) of choice or the kind of car I CHOOSE to drive. It's still supposed to be governmaet OF the people, FOR the people, and BY the people. They work for US, not the other way around. It only seems that way most of the time. And as for the Constitution being outdated, I think it shows the tremendous foresight of our founding fathers that it's NOT outdated at all. It's a Socialist, Left Wing viewpoint that the Constitution and Bill of Rights are living, breathing documents" that can be bent and shaped to suit the current trends. To the contrary, like the Holy Bible, these documents are valuable precisely because they are NOT bendable or liquid. They say what they say for a reason and the Federal Gov't has way overstepped the powers granted to it by them.
 
 The answer to gun crime isn't more laws or dividing weapons into classes and only banning the ones that sound most dangerous. The answer would be to enforce the laws already on the books. Those two scumbags who shot up Columbine H.S. already had broken more than a dozen weapons laws. What difference would one or two more have made? Criminals, you know, the ones who commint the crimes, break laws for a living. Making it harder for law abiding citizens to have access to the firearm(s) they need/want doesn't do squat for crime except, maybe, increasing its likelyhood. Putting a criminal behind bars or removing him/her from the genepool entirely at least ensures that that one person isn't out committing more crimes. An armed citizenry has also been instrumental in reducing crime. It's just that the Left Wing Liberal elites don't want us common folk to be armed because we cannot be trusted. Remeber the flap about Diane Fienstien(sp)? She's a big Liberal California Politician who has voted time and time again to erode our 2nd amendment freedoms and yet she carries a concealed weapon. How about Rosie O'Donnel? She gets Tom Selleck on her show under false pretenses and then proceeds to rip him a new one because he's an NRA member. But guess what, she has a paid, armed body guard for her adopted kids. So, because she can afford professional protection and Di Fi has clout to get a nearly impossible CCW in the People's Republic of California, they deserve to play by a different set of rules than the rest of us? I think not.

 Now, does anybody know where I can get a rifle scabboard for a GS500? :guns:

bump.

:)