I thought the problems were gone. After the bike sat for two weeks, I was experiencing the same problems. Rode it a bit and they seemed to go away. Now they're back with a vengeance. Had to drive the Audi this morning because the bike decided to flood when I tried to start it. Couldn't wait an hour to try again, so I had to leave it in the garage. During the two weeks it was parked, no-one touched the bike. It stayed locked in my garage. Seems as if the problems just came out of nowhere. Any clues as to what could be causing this and where I should start first. I freakin' hate working on f%$king carbs with a passion. Put seafoam in the gas yesterday right before a fill up, but it didn't help a thing. When the idle hangs, it's hanging right around the 4 or 5k mark. If I get the bike down to around 2k by bogging it with the brakes at a stop, the idle stays around 1200 or so, but as soon as I rev a little, it hangs right back up there. This is making me want to get rid of the damn bike altogether. The knock that was there has disappeared now though.
I had the same thing happen to me, same symptoms out of nowhere. I cleaned the carbs very well, put new fuel lines in, and a new fuel filter. Also the throttle cable seemed to be a little kinked. I don't know what exactly the problem was but it was fixed by one of those things.
I guess I'll pull the carbs this evening. I despise messing with those damn things. I would rather take a bath in brake fluid. :mad:
Anyone else have any suggestions? I'm at home now and am about to go out in the garage to begin tearing it down. Would love to have it back running so I can ride it tomorrow.
check your float high. brake fluid is nothing try taking a shower in skydrol, ive done it and taking a shower only makes it worse
checked the float height, it was fine. Removed air filter and looked @ the butterflies on both carbs. they are closed no matter what position the choke is in. Shouldn't they be open when it isn't choked? No matter what position the throttle or choke is in, they won't open. will I break something if I try to force them open? which way do they open?
no the butterflys are closed at closed throttle and they opne when gas is given. try to follow them back to the throttle and look for kinks or something that can catch the cable causing it to not move. Dont force it. as far as the flooding goes can you be move specific. does it n ot kick over after a crank fest caue that can flood the motor(could be a low battery). as far as the hanging problem goes you could have a vac leak or a miadjusted throttle cable(bogging with clutch and brake moves the bars fixing the issue) my bike does the same thing I need to release the cluthc to lower the idle but thats fine with me im used to it carbs may be out of synce.
I'm not sure exactly what has happened, but I was turning the engine over with the starter and it locked up solid as a rock. Pulled the plugs and looked into each hole. On the left piston head, I can see newly exposed metal, like something has come in contact with it. With the bike in 6th gear, I can only turn the rear wheel a short distance before it hits. I'm thinking something major is wrong now. I guess I'll need to pull the engine and begin the tear-down to see what has happened. f%$k!!!! :mad: :2guns: :mad: :2guns:
I was going to reply and tell you to try a new throttle cable before you tear the carbs apart, but upon reading your last post I see your cam chain is probably broken and now you have smashed valves. You have my sympathies.
Pulled off the exhaust and looked inside to see what the valves looked like. The left side exhaust valve is missing. I can only assume it's sitting on top of the left piston. Maybe I will get lucky and only need a new piston and valve. I'm not sure if it broke anything else yet. I've got the carbs off and the only thing connected to the engine is now the chain, the clutch cable and an electrical wire that disappears under a black cover that sits right under the carbs. I'll pull it completely tomorrow and take the top end apart to see what all damage has occurred.
My wife told me this morning that she was glad that I couldn't get it started this morning and had to take the car. Sad she had been having a bad feeling about me riding for the last few days. If this had happened while doing 80 mph on the interstate, it would have been bad I think. Woman's intuition? I dunno, but this is freaky as hell!
I'm trying to find my damn camera so I can take a few pics of the missing valve. When I find it, I'll post a few so you guys can share my pain. I had a big ride planned for this weekend too. :cry: :mad: :cry:
Quote from: bill14224 on July 02, 2008, 06:21:33 PM
I was going to reply and tell you to try a new throttle cable before you tear the carbs apart, but upon reading your last post I see your cam chain is probably broken and now you have smashed valves. You have my sympathies.
The GS has a non inerference engine the valves won't contact the pistons.Sounds like it may have broken a valve keeper and dropped the valve in the cylinder.I'd pull the head.
Here's a pic of where the valve should be.
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r172/F_O_FUBARREDNECK/IMG_0152.jpg)
broke the keeper and droped the valve.
Is it possible to pull the head with the engine still in the bike, or would it just be a lot easier to pull it out? You think I may need a new head? You can see a small portion of it has broken off right where the valve comes through. This is more than likely the knocking I heard last week. What causes something like this to happen? I've already priced a new piston from bikebandit.com. They're wanting around $80.00 for the piston assembly which includes only the piston and rings. Connecting rod is seperate and would be another $76.00. The cylinder head is $642.00, almost as much as I paid for the bike back in Feb.
Quote from: lewismug on July 02, 2008, 07:49:17 PM
Is it possible to pull the head with the engine still in the bike, or would it just be a lot easier to pull it out? You think I may need a new head? You can see a small portion of it has broken off right where the valve comes through. This is more than likely the knocking I heard last week. What causes something like this to happen? I've already priced a new piston from bikebandit.com. They're wanting around $80.00 for the piston assembly which includes only the piston and rings. Connecting rod is seperate and would be another $76.00. The cylinder head is $642.00, almost as much as I paid for the bike back in Feb.
The head can be repaired.New valve guide and lap the valves back in.As long as there was no damage to the rod you should be able to replace the piston and rings.I would have the cylinders honed.I'm not sure if the head can come off with the engine still in the frame.Maybe possible to find a good used head for around $100.
Thanks for the help and advice Ben. I'll pull the engine and head tomorrow. I'll be sure and take plenty of pics of the damage. Any of you know how well bikebandit does with shipping parts out? Are they fairly quick, or slow?
Quote from: lewismug on July 02, 2008, 08:18:31 PM
Thanks for the help and advice Ben. I'll pull the engine and head tomorrow. I'll be sure and take plenty of pics of the damage. Any of you know how well bikebandit does with shipping parts out? Are they fairly quick, or slow?
Fairly quick for me to get things from bikebandit.No problems so far.Check your head and see if you need the keepers and seat.Looks like a washer and 2 wedges.I would replace them anyway since they dropped the valve.
You had a valve stay open and get clobbered by the piston. Happened to one clown on a savage. Head, and piston work on his, but a savage bottom end is 100 times what a GS one is, as well and the fact that its cases are thicker, narrower and split vertically instead of horizontally (no idea what difference it makes though) ... but its better built.
Cool.
Buddha.
bikebandit.com is awesome in shipping, I get parts within 3 days and prices are pretty decent.
Well, I guess I'm really lucky that I wasn't driving it when it occurred. If the engine would have actually been running when it happened, I think it would have really torn a lot more up and I would more than likely be looking for a whole new engine.
Once you've fixed this up and get it back on the bike you need to look at the other causes for hanging idle just incase this is a symptom of something else. If your carbs are clean you need to check your throttle response. Pull the cable out run oil through the line and put it back in and route it so its free with only sweeping curves to reduce tension. Then adjust it. You want a tiny bit of play in the grip but mm's only. Then when you twist the grip your butterflies should open from their resting position to full as your grip hits its stop. Then you know your cable is allright. Hope it goes ok man.
I had hanging idle on my zxr400 for god knows how long, the only way to bring it down was it would come down after a couple of minutes or to slip the clutch and force it to drop low where it would stay. I fitted better spark plugs (iridium ones - worth every single penny they sorted half my problems and cold starting without the choke!) then adjusted the throttle cables, cleaned carbs and messed around with the idle. Now it runs sweet as a nut.
I finally got around to pulling the engine from the bike today. Tomorrow afternoon I'll pull the head and see what all has been damaged. Hopefully not too much. And I thought it was my butterflies that were stuck, but they open and close just fine. There are actually two black things that cover the carb entrances that slide up and down. Any idea what they are because they will not move at all without me pushing them up with my finger.
That is normal they are closed, they have springs holding it down till the venturi velocity goes up then they open with the velocity staying proportional to their opening. AKA, more velocity = more lifting in them ... they are the slides, and its constant velocity carbs.
Cool.
Buddha.
you shouldnt have to remove the motor to remove the head. just remove the tank and all the stuff on top of the heads and your in buisness
As for your high idle problem, I'd check your vacuum lines. Hell, check every hose that's connected to the carb and make sure they're all in good shape. I had these issues and one of my vacuum lines was old and cracked all to hell. Not long after that, one of my fuel hoses gave way. Needless to say, I went ahead and replaced everything after that. Good luck.
Well, it's already done Mach. I asked the question if I had to remove the engine to get the heads off and no-one gave me a clear answer. It's better this way though. I had gaskets and seals starting to leak oil and I can replace them all while the engine is out.
Alright, I now have the engine out of the bike and partially disassembled. All I have left is to pull the head bolts and take that off. Then I can see what all I'll need to replace. Wish me luck guys.
The head should come off the jugs (cylinders - lower finned part between head and engine case) which should stay around the pistons. At least that's true if you pull the head off the jugs, not the jugs off the pistons (it's the same set of studs holding both on). Don't pry and break fins.
go to this recent thread, perhaps?
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=41982.0 (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=41982.0)
Gory, and not where you want to go:
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=41803.0 (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=41803.0)
Pulled the engine apart tonight and I found a few things that were damaged.
1. Left piston. Scarred a little on top of the dome, but I think it will be alright. Scarring is very minimal, more like scratches.
2. Left exhaust vale actually broke in two. The valve stay (keeper) was still attached to most of the valve stem. It broke about 1/3 the way up the shaft from the head of the valve.
3. Valve seat is scarred very little. I think it can be honed out to keep the new valve from being leaky.
4. Valve shim bucket (thing shims sit in) doesn't seem to want to go back into the hole it came out of. Had to put a small screwdriver through where the valve is supposed to come through and knock it out from underneath.
Ok, what in the hell could cause a valve just to break like that? Almost seems like the piston came up and hit the exhaust valve while it was extended, but the piston seems alright. Everything I have looked at seems to be alright except for the items I mentioned above. What could be causing the shim bucket to not fit correctly? The intake bucket from the same side fits perfectly in the hole, but the exhaust bucket won't fit in the same hole. Could it be warped? What exactly is it called so I'll know what to order from bikebandit? I took a few pics of the damage, and will post them tomorrow morning when I get to work.
Quote from: lewismug on July 22, 2008, 08:04:17 PM
Pulled the engine apart tonight and I found a few things that were damaged.
4. Valve shim bucket (thing shims sit in) doesn't seem to want to go back into the hole it came out of. Had to put a small screwdriver through where the valve is supposed to come through and knock it out from underneath.
Ok, what in the hell could cause a valve just to break like that? Almost seems like the piston came up and hit the exhaust valve while it was extended, but the piston seems alright. Everything I have looked at seems to be alright except for the items I mentioned above. What could be causing the shim bucket to not fit correctly? The intake bucket from the same side fits perfectly in the hole, but the exhaust bucket won't fit in the same hole. Could it be warped? What exactly is it called so I'll know what to order from bikebandit? I took a few pics of the damage, and will post them tomorrow morning when I get to work.
gsJack talked about a sticky bucket that eventually got stuck and broke a valve:
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=42732.msg480271#msg480271
Maybe you've had the same bad luck?
I think gsJack said that it was cold weather the finally caused the bucket to stick. Had you had any similar cold weather?
Mine snapped in the exact same spot and the break even looks the same! Anyone have an extra bucket they wanna get rid of? No cold weather at all. It's been pretty warm here in the south. But the side of the bucket does look a bit darker than the sides of the others. Maybe it's just been sticking for a while. I did notice the last time I actually rode the bike, it was backfiring a little every few minutes, so I think the bike was trying to tell me something.....I was just too stupid to listen!
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r172/F_O_FUBARREDNECK/IMG_0184.jpg)
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r172/F_O_FUBARREDNECK/IMG_0181.jpg)
Are those the original buckets from the motor? Did you ever accidentally swap them around from their respective holes? Or did the buckets just start sticking on their own?
Nope, this is the first time I have ever opened the engine. Never swapped anything around. It stuck on its own. Not sure why just yet.
Didn't you just do a valve adjustment recently ? (OK, maybe you were in line for the kit/missing kit)
It's possibly the bucket wasn't quite round, and when you did the valve adjustment it rotated to a non-fun position that eventually seized things and broke the valve. I'm only guessing.
Other thing could have been it (remember that knocking noise you worried about a while back?) was always wrong, and finally gave way. Take a close look at the break point on the valve. If it looks like a crisp line that means it was a FAST break at a hard/overly hard point in the valve's shaft. If the break looks like a feather, it means it was a bend THEN break. Fractures could mean a factory defect and that the valve was just too hard (brittle) and your bike's days were numbered from the get-go.
Just some stuff to look at. Sorry to hear you've got her all beat up right now.
Nope, haven't done an adjustment yet. My surgery took me off the list. Called Bike Bandit, and the guy I spoke with was extremely nice and helpful in finding all the parts I need. Total is around 220.00 with shipping, so I should be back on the road within a few weeks. Wifey will get pissed if I "blow" 200 bucks on my "damn" motorcycle.....but then again, she's complaining about how much gas I'm using in the Audi, so maybe she'll come around. Either way, I'll get the parts. It's just a matter of time now. Went ahead last night and pulled the entire cylinder head off the engine and had a good look at my pistons and rings. One ring on each piston was partially stuck, and there were some pretty good chunks of the valve that were kind of stuck between the piston and the wall, so I guess it's a good thing that I pulled it all off. Cylinder walls were alright, with nare a scrape or nick. I'm gonna replace every gasket on the engine while I have it out, so I'll tear it down the rest of the way tonight or tomorrow night.
You prolly need to hone and run new rings. You also need to smoothen the piston. You cannot have any sharp points anywhere in the chamber. It will start dieselling if there is.
How does the head look. My friends savage that broke a valve (BTW his didn't even have buckets) chewed the head up good too. I'd put kibblewhite valves in it. Valves need to be made of Inconel. Suzuki uses a BS material in theirs.
Cool.
Buddha.
Buddha, yeah, I'm gonna smooth the piston out on top. The rings look fine. I was just planning on removing them, cleaning them and the pistons up, and re-installing everything. I will hone the bores out as well. Would this be acceptable or no? First time I've ever basically rebuilt an engine and done this kind of work. I've done almost everything but worked with pistons and the such, so I'll admit I'll need some guidance on the best way to do this. The head looks fine to me, but then again, I haven't gone over everything with a fine tooth comb just yet. Still in the process of tearing everything down. I plan on cleaning everything up really well before I put it all back together. It was already leaking oil a little, hence the need/want for new gaskets all around. My biggest worry is getting the timing back right when I put it all back together. I have no clue how. I don't want the piston to come into contact with another valve once everything is back together.
Ohgood, the valve seems to have a pretty crisp fracture, so I don't think it bent beforehand. No worries. I'm just ready to hurry up and ride again. Weather is perfect and I see everyone else riding and it makes me mad as hell!
On the chamber - well any sharp spots will get hot and cause detonation. That means you need the head and piston dome nice and smooth, You hone it and get it clean and you can use the stock pistons. But the savage I did last year had serious dents in the cylinder wall, It had to have a 1/2mm over bore. I opted to buy a new motor, do that one's head and use the rest as is. Savage motors have the cylinder bolted to the cases so you can do just the head on them and not have to do the base gasket also.
Anyway, you deck the head, put new valves and custom ground 3 angle valve job in it, etc etc
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: The Buddha on July 23, 2008, 08:45:13 PM
On the chamber - well any sharp spots will get hot and cause detonation. That means you need the head and piston dome nice and smooth, You hone it and get it clean and you can use the stock pistons. Anyway, you deck the head, put new valves and custom ground 3 angle valve job in it, etc etc
Cool.
Buddha.
Is a valve job/custom ground 3 angle valve job necessary, or can I just get by with replacing the broken parts, and smoothing out the piston and head?
New valves will be blank edge, unless you get custome machined stuff from kibblewhite types. The seats will have to be re conditioned anyway, a valve breaking in the guide can cause seat to get some wear marks. If its open, cut the seals and valves. Your guides are good - especially the one that broke. If its going to wobble the damn valve can get stuck in it again, ot get the bucket crooked and stuck or somehting. Guides and seats can be re-used/left in place only after you are sure they dont have the potential to tear up the new items you put in there. You are replacing the valves right ? or just that 1 ? I suggest you get kibblewhite valves instead of suzuki. And match the seats and valves and make sure guides are all good. You've done 90% of the work, I'd just complete it so you know its good.
Cool.
Buddha.
I'm just replacing the one valve, valve guide, valve spring seat, valve spring retainer, cotter valve, tappet, and valve stem. At least that's what I'm planning on doing. I'm looking for the cheapest way to get it back on the road. If I had enough to replace all valves right now, I would. can I get by with just doing what I have said?
I think you really should put new rings in the pistons.
Now, see that's what I'm talking about! I need advice like that. Tell me what I NEED to do so the engine will last, but lets not go overboard though. Adding a turbo kit is out of the question here... :icon_lol:
New rings it is.
For the cost of 1 of these from suzuki, you could buy most of the kit form kibblewhite. Get 4 of everything and then swap what you like. BTW kibblewhite seats and valves I am sure come in the 3 angle version. You'd save money doing that too. But I guess youd blow more than that installing all the seats instead. You also need to deck the head. Those things warp as you run it.
One important and very very counterintuitive aspect of 4 stroke motors is ... head is way more important for good running and long durable life and most of all power and driveability that cylinders and pistons pale in comparison. A hone and ring job will do, but you need to get the head right to ahve good power from it.
Cool.
Buddha.
Hi there,
Sorry to hear about your engine problems.
Yes, definitely, you want to replace the rings on both pistons whenever you pull the cylinders and remove the pistons from their bores.
Use one of the OLD rings to clean the ring lands (that's what the piston ring grooves in the pistons are called) and clean the pistons well with solvent before installing the new rings and reassembling the pistons into the bores. Be sure to use engine assembly lube on all parts so they are lubricated when the engine is first started again.
A good valve job is critical, per the specifications in the GS500 shop manual.
Also replace all gaskets as you reassemble. You want to do this work once, not take it apart and redo it later.
Best of luck, bub,
Trwhouse
Going to order parts on Friday finally, but need to be sure of the parts that I absolutely need. Here's the list from bikebandit so far:
Part Number Description Unit Price
480473-001 VALVE SPRING SEAT $2.87
480215-001 TAPPET $25.48
480351-001 VALVE,EXHAUST $38.31
480460-001 COTTER VALVE $1.09
480452-001 VALVE SPRING RETAINER $3.80
472452-001 VALVE STEM OIL $4.40
475720-001 GUIDE INTAKE VALVE $10.46
473168-001 VALVE GUIDE RING $0.76
477272-001 GASKET SET $127.19
478333-001 RING SET,PISTON $26.28
Subtotal: $240.64
What exactly is the name of the part that is chipped in the picture below?
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r172/F_O_FUBARREDNECK/IMG_0152.jpg)
Quote from: lewismug on July 29, 2008, 07:22:11 PM
Going to order parts on Friday finally, but need to be sure of the parts that I absolutely need. Here's the list from bikebandit so far:
Part Number Description Unit Price
480473-001 VALVE SPRING SEAT $2.87
480215-001 TAPPET $25.48
480351-001 VALVE,EXHAUST $38.31
480460-001 COTTER VALVE $1.09
480452-001 VALVE SPRING RETAINER $3.80
472452-001 VALVE STEM OIL $4.40
475720-001 GUIDE INTAKE VALVE $10.46
473168-001 VALVE GUIDE RING $0.76
477272-001 GASKET SET $127.19
478333-001 RING SET,PISTON $26.28
Subtotal: $240.64
What exactly is the name of the part that is chipped in the picture below?
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r172/F_O_FUBARREDNECK/IMG_0152.jpg)
The chipped part in the pic is the exhaust valve guide.
Oh yea, you can find it as a GS500 Kit form kibblewhile for under that $250 and the stuff will blow suzuki away. $38 for an exhaust valve, gimme a break.
Check with Bob Broussard how good kibblewhile stuff is.
BTW I will sell you a cherry head for $75, and do a 3 angle job on it for an added $25.
Cool.
Buddha.
Kibblewhite website lists a kit for a Suzuki® • GS500 E • 1989-2000. My bike is an '02. How much difference?
What would be included with the head if I purchased it from you Buddha? Would I need to buy all new valves, tappets, and all that, or would they come with it?
All in it. I would do the 3 angle job if you preferred. Its a brand new - very very low mile head. But it is black not silver. I dont have matched buckets, I would fit buckets by hand and check before sending it to you. None of them will bind up.
Kibblewhite stuff, should fit 02. Call them. Also ask them if the valves come 3 angle cut or what not.
Cool.
Buddha.
So, right now, is the head together or in pieces? Would I need to buy valves, send them to you, and then you send everything to me once completed, or is your head ready to go right now? If it is ready to go right now, is it all stock and would it fit my '02 block?
Head is in 1 piece. Its got great everything. Very few miles on it. It only does not have buckets. It will fit an 02, just is going to mismatch.
We can split the valves, 3 angle cut them and refit it, and it will be like or better than new. Suzuki did such a lousy job on these. My head has also been decked already. I decided I will 3 angle cut em just before I need to use it.
Cool.
Buddha.
I will come out cheaper if I get the head from you without you doing the 3 angle job on the valves. Then all I would need from bikebandit is a gasket kit. How much would you charge me for the head if I sent you mine in exchange?
I think mine would've lasted forever if the tappet hadn't gotten stuck. I don't rag the bike too much, and I mostly do interstate miles. Lemme think it over and run it by the wife. I'll let you know sometime tonight.
I dont need another head except to make some gruesome experiments.
What else other than broken valves and guides. You figure I will be able to grind off any imperfections and use it wihtout it destroying the CC volumes ?
I dont think its worth even shipping it, but OK how about I pay for shipping mine for you shipping it. I will need cam towers for it for sure, so if those are broken I'll pass on even that.
Cool.
Buddha.
I'd like to be next in line for that cylinder head if lewismug doesn't get it :icon_mrgreen:
Lewismug - Hit me by say 9 am EST tommorow with $.
Ry_guy - if he fails to you got to 9pm tommorow. You want 3 angle job on them ? $25 if you do.
Fair enough ??
Cool.
Buddha.
Can't by then. Would have to be Friday.
OK you have to noon friday - that enough ?
Then Ry_guy gets an extra 24, to saturday say sunday midnight.
Cool.
Buddha.
Ry_guy, lewismug backed out. Its yours now and like you said I have dropped it off at the engine shop. Contact me, for paypal info, I'll need that (obviously) ASAP.
Cool.
Buddha.