I keep hearing about how its broken.
OK I'd like to hear some proof. Its designed to only let in so many in each category from each country etc etc etc.
That is the function of it, its a gate. You dont try to let in 1500 people into a theatre showing "Batman:the Dark night returns today and forever till all the yesterdays are gone in 60 seconds" that has a 100 person capacity, and complain that they cant get in, the theatre is broken.
Its broken if these people do get in. WTF will happen if there is a fire ???
Its broken if even 100 people dont get in especially after they buy tickets.
The system is broken only because people have decided to barge in without waiting for the system to function. Yea lets stuff the 1500 into the theater and start the movie, we'll see who can see what of the movie, and what will happen when the movie soundtrack yells "fire".
Now that the US isn't dumping subsidised corn and whatever on the mexican market (which they have tried to blame the US, but you should have thought of that before agreeing to NAFTA) and corn and wheat have gotten back to premium prices and that mexico has lots of oil I am going to suggest that the people complaining the system is broken go back and start producing in mexico what they supposedly were doing in the US.
I think these people will all go back to mexico, especially those that have gotten legal status (cos they ahve been able to go back several times and have stayed in touch with mexico) because I believe the US is going to get a great depression style event in the next few years. We may have permanently lost our status of economic superpower and true prosperity is going to return only after all the dead wood has been cleared.
Cool.
Buddha.
Well, you do live in texas don't you?? They call it northern mexico for a reason and southern california and arizona are bad also. I live in northern california so I see some of it, but its nowhere near as bad here as there. I agree with you 100% and am investing in gold, guns, and emergency supplies. Many of my co-workers think I'm crazy for stocking up on rice, MRE's and spam, but worse come to worse, I can live on my own in a tent or wherever necessary. I think we're gonna go downhill awful fast and it'll be a pleasant surprise for those who have prepared.
I dont live in northern mexico (texas) anymore. I live in north eastern mexico. North carolina.
I heard it on radio not on the street.
Cool.
Buddha.
By your definition, I wonder if any immigration system is fixed, or if America's system has ever worked.
Idiologically I don't care if people make it here illegally. Most of our ancestors made it to America in a gray area of the law. They came over in a time when immigration law either wasn't enforced, or it wasn't in place. Would they have come over if today's regulation and enforcement scheme was in place? There's really no way of knowing, but everyone gives their relatives the benefit of the doubt and assumes their great-great grandfather would have followed the law. Idiology on this topic is irrelevant to me. Really I just want to know what makes things better for me and the current Americans.
Culturally, I don't care if people get in illegally. Give me Thai food instead of hamburgers. Give me mariachis over Brittney Spears. Give me an Ethiopian festival over an Americana festival.
Economically, I may care. The economic reports I've seen have been mixed due in no small part to the politics of those funding the study. Some say that the economy benefits since low wage workers usually take more $ out out of the public service system than they put in, yet immigrants refrain from using public services. Others say low wage immigrant labor undercuts the wages of American citizens, and that things like immigrants lacking insurance raises costs for everyone.
If there is a problem, and I'm waiting on the definitive economic study to know if there is, I don't know the solution. A wall is too expensive. Immigration courts are backed up, so we'll need to spend more money on that. Perhaps a surveillance wall along our most porous borders?
Quote from: The Buddha on July 30, 2008, 09:33:06 AM
I think these people will all go back to mexico, especially those that have gotten legal status (cos they ahve been able to go back several times and have stayed in touch with mexico) because I believe the US is going to get a great depression style event in the next few years. We may have permanently lost our status of economic superpower and true prosperity is going to return only after all the dead wood has been cleared.
Cool.
Buddha.
I'm pretty sure we are still an economic superpower.
If you are saying we've lost it in the last 10-20 years, our GDP per person has gone up. The distribution of income has become way more scewed though, with the very rich getting much richer and everyone else either getting poorer or staying the same.
If you are saying that with the current inflationary environment and devaluation of the dollar we are losing are status as an economic superpower, maybe you're right. Europe has been able to turn around their economic status though, so at least there is a roadmap for returning to economic prominence.
I am talking about devaluation of the $, the inflation that has gripped the country while the powers that be publish bogus numbers, and the systematic transfer of wealth to foreign hostile or soon to be hostile nations.
Europe and asia is kicking our butt in technology due to lower costs, and in medicine due to lack of religious interference.
China and India are not wasting time playing worlds cops especially where there is oil and not where its really needed. They have a looooooong way to go but they are working their way out of corruption and slaving away at it.
The entitlement bomb is exploding, and so are medical costs, college costs and everything costs. Most of it due to bad planning, bureaucracy and just outright denial of the problem.
The only country that at present is having a net inflow into the US at this time I believe is mexico. However there is a weird reason for it. Due to proximity costs in mexico for core items are the same as it is in $. Yet a mexican worker makes 1/10 there as he does here. Most other countries are getting back the people they exported to the US and they are comming back with the full education and experience of working in the US. Huge loss of brain power.
Now on to immigration.
In the 70's through 90's the immigration situation was much better. Mid 90's nafta triggered the collapse of farming as a viable option in mexico. That left several million unskilled laborers with no where to go. So they came to the US. Ironically at the same time the US started a dead end housing bubble to employ the displaced workers.
I would there for contend that 70's to 95-96 the issue was not that the system was broken, but that the system was taking too much time to complete the process. The late 90's saw a semi broken system get a patch. Country quota's were reversed after the current quota year and added into the general pool. However the flood started then and it has lead to huge backlogs in everything.
BTW I'd contend that we open a temporary worker program but impose country level numbers just like the Green card process is. And it has to be applied from outside the USA. Why - its like this - Our ancestors (ok not mine I am first gen) came here and yes they may be illegal, this is the huge difference and this is why america got so great due to the immigration policy of 100 years ago. They were not all from 1 country. We also got very very intelligent and highly educated people throughout history to the US, loose immigration policy or otherwise.
Linus Torvaldis in the 90's through Nicolai Tesla in the 00's and Einstein in the 30's.
We didn't just get displaced farm workers from mexico alone in the 100 years the system was lax.
We have gotten the gamblers and the risk takers from mexico and other close in countries, not really the educated and smart. Cos typically they dont like to break too many laws right off the bat.
Anyway wall, or fence or what not wont work. Needs to be electronic. BTW there was a bust on a tent city with over 10 people in Nashville TN last week. No one that is educated wants to take that chance.
Cool.
Buddha.
the US is still an economic superpower but that status is threatened by china. with our dollar deflated and in midst of a recession the Chinese are buying up all they can of Americana. this includes our banks and property. who knows how far this will go but it is a concern. as for immigration i do think we need to get a grip on it. otherwise we are going to be just another 2nd or 3rd world cesspool.
Proof the immigration system is a failure: They let Buddha in. :flipoff: :flipoff: :laugh: Sorry, but you left that one wide open.
Quote from: frankieG on July 30, 2008, 01:05:11 PM
the US is still an economic superpower but that status is threatened by china. with our dollar deflated and in midst of a recession the Chinese are buying up all they can of Americana. this includes our banks and property. who knows how far this will go but it is a concern. as for immigration i do think we need to get a grip on it. otherwise we are going to be just another 2nd or 3rd world cesspool.
ill be damned i agree with frankie. the immigrationissue has been around for QUITE a long time. but most in congress etc. didnt want to do anything about it. or refused to do so. heckill welcomeanyone in provided they do it legally.or ifthey are illegal, they make themselves legal. ill welcome them in wiht open arms :thumb:
Quote from: spc on July 30, 2008, 02:44:05 PM
Proof the immigration system is a failure: They let Buddha in. :flipoff: :flipoff: :laugh: Sorry, but you left that one wide open.
Why you little ...
Well They booted me out in 98 (or my H1 ran out due to 6 year limit) and I went to canada. I returned in 99 after 1 year exile and sold a lot of pilot jets that I had found in canada.
Then in 01 I got a green card. Over all I managed to never stay here as an illegal. But then again I always had a good chance of living a good life India or here. So many Indians have gone back to India and promptly started businesses exporting stuff to the US/europe. We need to stay ahead of the game here. We need a Einstein and a tesla and a whole bunch of others, doctors, scientists, engineers etc to push the envelope. Else I see asia trouncing the US.
Cool.
Buddha.
wasn't Tesla Italian? he certainly was ahead of his time. it did not even occur to me you were an immigrant or illegal or whatever. kinda funny you would be crapping on a system that was favourable to yourself. but this immigration thing has been going on since this country was founded. Irish, Germans, Chinese...there was always a "flavour of the week" as far as immigration is concerned. i think legal immigration is doing a fair to good job, it is the illegals that are a problem. i mean what do you do close the boarder and live in a fortress. i mean you look at some neighbourhoods, they have windows with bars on them, doors that are like a safe, chain fences, alarm system, surveillance systems. so who is living in a prison? then they buy guns which are more likely to be turned on them unless you have military or police training. so many people living in fear and the media perpetuates that. fox is the worst but many of them do it too. i refuse to live in fear, but then again after serving in some of the place i have served i guess i may be a bit sensitized to it. whoa i went off on a rant there :) illegals are tolerated because they will take shaZam! jobs for shaZam! wages that none of us will take. where things go sideways is when they stay here and their cows pump out kid after kid and are on welfare getting free medical, dental and prescriptions meds. and when these little bastards grow up, now born in America, they become citizens and gang members. they grow up thinking the police are the enemy. that the system is something to be played in order to get what they want. when they get arrested it is always someone else's fault. the police, friends that are bad influences or what ever. they have it better off in jail than on the street and once they hit the street they get so called street cred. some that commit the more serious crimes escape across the boarder to avoid prosecution. i really don't know what the answer is. i think the states need to stop giving these people benefits and treat them like criminals which they are. now after saying that i don't think locking everyone up is necessarily the way out. ah f%$k i don't know what the answer is. living in the northern states and Canada we don't have the Spanish problem that many states are experiencing. but i did live in San Diego for several years while in the navy so i was exposed to the problem. they play the system and the language BS so much it can drive anyone nuts. like i said earlier i don't think there is any real effort in government to do anything about this problem. and that is what the problem is.
Simple fix. a fence. ( with doors) the order has been in for a VERY long while to build said fence, but its nowhere near completion. the reason i say doors, is let people in, but only those who have followed proper channels to get here, such as you frankie, or god forbid even the buddha :flipoff: :laugh: jk, back around teh turn of the century, everyone came here, and everyone learned english, and everyone busted tehir ass to make it work., as far as teh few million illegals which are here, ( aliens, not immigrants), give them a chance to become legal :thumb:
i was born american thankyourverymuch and am not an immigrant
Quote from: frankieG on August 03, 2008, 09:14:34 AM
illegals are tolerated because they will take shaZam! jobs for shaZam! wages that none of us will take.
living in the northern states and Canada we don't have the Spanish problem that many states are experiencing.
That bit of tolerating illegals is purely a benefit to rich fat-cats. For working citizens that don't take shaZam! jobs for for shaZam! wages, they are a cancerous curse, because when the job still needs to be done, one way to compensate for it being a shaZam! job nobody wants to do is to make it pay well enough that someone (one of "us") will do it anyway. Being a plumber is often a shitty job (literally) but it pays well. Any of the other jobs that "nobody will take" can be solved by exactly the same method - adequate wages and benefits such that a legal, self-respecting citizen would actually consider taking the job.
We are seeing an influx (past 5 years or so) here in NW Mass - brought in by resorts (timeshares, hotels, etc) as cheap labor. Suddenly the hospitals and social-service sectors are looking for translators and bi-linguals.
Quote from: frankieG on August 03, 2008, 10:03:49 AM
i was born american thankyourverymuch and am not an immigrant
were you not born a canadian?
i was born in canada to american parents who were here visiting family. so i am both equally. once born my parents went back home, with a new citizen in tow, to maine after 2 weeks in canada
ahhhhhh rgr, i was trying to figure this out today :oops: :oops: i thought you were canadian first THEN came here. but essentially you never left either one, which is kinda unique. amongs many with dual citizenship :thumb:
figure what out
Frankie - Tesla was croatian.
Yea, ditto on the immigration system. The illegal immigration problem I am describing and the one you are describing at the turn of the century are 2 very very different things. From 1800 to 1950 we got a lot of war transplants (thoroughly deserving of help and for the most part they didn't game the system) and general cross section of the best and the brightest (like Tesla) as well as those that were the so called risk takers. They also came from over 2 dozen different countries atleast. Post 1950 through maybe 1995, the minimum qualification needed to get on US soil was a full engineering degree, and you get in as a student to further educate yourself. Most of the 40+ year old first gen are like that. Several countries including canada and australia have a similar system. It may or may not be a success in those countries but for the most part it has worked in the US. Again totally legit, also spread amongst over a dozen countries (usually not the same dozen as the previous bunch).
The illegal immigration of late seems to be from 1-2 countries and they want to legalise themselves so they can add on to their families and then complain that their families are not being legalised. The whole point it, any immigration system needs to have country level quotas reinstated atleast for the first year. Its an immigration process, not a free ride.
Illegals do jobs that other american's wont do. So there fore legalising them will just turn them into people who wont do the jobs they were doing. Never ending problem.
the first instance an illegal takes public services they need to be deported. Show up at a hospital with a broken arm, or in labor with your 12th child, you receive the service (we patch up the arm or deliver the baby and promptly (as soon as you're ready to walk out of the hospital) you get a bill for the full price of the service. If you pay for it, you can walk. Else you're going to a bus to the nearest holding area where you will be deported. Plenty more, we cant be rewarding people for breaking the law by handing citizenships to them, yes that is how gangs are made. Check into the history of the "mexican mafia" or of MS 13.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on August 03, 2008, 09:55:47 AM
Simple fix. a fence. ( with doors) the order has been in for a VERY long while to build said fence, but its nowhere near completion. the reason i say doors, is let people in, but only those who have followed proper channels to get here, such as you frankie, or god forbid even the buddha :flipoff: :laugh: jk, back around teh turn of the century, everyone came here, and everyone learned english, and everyone busted tehir ass to make it work., as far as teh few million illegals which are here, ( aliens, not immigrants), give them a chance to become legal :thumb:
The Berlin wall had doors, too. They let people in, too. We don't need a wall. We need reasonable policies and enforcement of existing laws. We very often deport illegal workers but rarely throw their employers in jail. Why not? That would stop the employment of illegals by large companies very quickly. As it is, the corporations get a fine or a slap on the hand.
Government of the corporations, by the corporations, and for the corporations. It's the American way.
Quote from: trumpetguy on August 04, 2008, 09:13:00 AM
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on August 03, 2008, 09:55:47 AM
Simple fix. a fence. ( with doors) the order has been in for a VERY long while to build said fence, but its nowhere near completion. the reason i say doors, is let people in, but only those who have followed proper channels to get here, such as you frankie, or god forbid even the buddha :flipoff: :laugh: jk, back around teh turn of the century, everyone came here, and everyone learned english, and everyone busted tehir ass to make it work., as far as teh few million illegals which are here, ( aliens, not immigrants), give them a chance to become legal :thumb:
The Berlin wall had doors, too. They let people in, too. We don't need a wall. We need reasonable policies and enforcement of existing laws. We very often deport illegal workers but rarely throw their employers in jail. Why not? That would stop the employment of illegals by large companies very quickly. As it is, the corporations get a fine or a slap on the hand.
Government of the corporations, by the corporations, and for the corporations. It's the American way.
well, no one, on either side of the proverbial aisle, has shown much willingness to take this on. ever since the "guest worker" proggy years back, its been slowly spiraling out of control. where nowadays, a health plan i was on a few years back, until budget cuts forced most , ( sorry to sound racist) white males out. but kep minorities, adn females in, anyhoo, the instructions for forms were in every language from english to farsi to everythign inbetween
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on August 03, 2008, 09:55:47 AM
Simple fix. a fence. ( with doors) the order has been in for a VERY long while to build said fence, but its nowhere near completion. the reason i say doors, is let people in, but only those who have followed proper channels to get here, such as you frankie, or god forbid even the buddha :flipoff: :laugh: jk, back around teh turn of the century, everyone came here, and everyone learned english, and everyone busted tehir ass to make it work., as far as teh few million illegals which are here, ( aliens, not immigrants), give them a chance to become legal :thumb:
a fence without protection is not a fence, it's a bit of scrap metal to climb over. If you build a fence, wall, etc, it has to be manned. Millions of our deflated dollars will go to UAV's for recon, large and small caliber weapons, vehicles, and manpower. FYI, border patrol does not have the experience or know how to operate most of these item, which leaves you with two choices: A- Spend the money to train Border patrol, or B spend the money to bring in NG, which will also cause conflict between the federal government and the border states. I guess you could also bring in Active duty soldiers, but believe me when I tell you, we have enough on our plates already (as do NG and reservists). We have already started using UAV's to recon our borders, at huge $ costs per mission. What I believe needs to happen is our diplomacy needs to get on Par with Mexico in convincing the Mexican government into implementing programs that will entice mexican (or any other country) nationals into staying home. If people do not want to stay where they are, no fence or wall or body of water can make them. Persecution and poverty have a way of motivating people to leave. Sorry if I repeated anyone else's points, I didn't make it all the way through the thread
a 2 stage wall, wiht a space between it, will make it damn near climb proof, 8 or 10 feet tall. easy cost fix,lol ( in jest) give every illegal, a brick when they are deported, and they place it on the wall. but nofix iswithout cost. eploymentlaws would work. IF THEY WERE ENFORCED. whereas tehy are not
Mexico has one of the worst freaking immigration policies in the world. Try going there and working. Worse than china.
Anyway, forget fence, electronic enforcement. No automatic citizen ship for anchor babies. Deport and charge mexican govt for it and collect on it. Dont freaking care if you have immigration and your sister is illegal, you should ahve thought of that before getting your butt here illegally to begin with, many many people from other countries are living wihtout their sister ... in a way it helps us live and die at work.
We cannot hand out immigration to illegals because they do jobs other americans wont. So what happens when they join the "other americans" ... we need more illegals.
And best of all, the first time any of them uses public service - calling fireman, or an ER, they get a bill for the full street value of the service. Heck, I'd charge them for schooling too. Stop rewarding abuse and breaking the law.
Cool.
Buddha.