Let me introduce myself. This is my first post about my FIRST motorbike a 1989 GS500. (I almost got a bandit but liked this bike too much). I got it off Craigslst in minneapolis for 400 dollars. The story is such.
Some guy bought the bike from his friend's wife for 200 dollars. It was apparently in a garage for a few years. Early this summer he took it to a local bike shop and had the following done (I am reading it off the receipt he gave me)
1. Brake fluid and Pads
2. New Front and Rear Tires
3. Carburetor Rebuild
4. Petcock?
5. Fuel chicken assembly.
Folks, this guy had the title transfered int his name in june, immediately spent (per receipt) 1200 dollars and had at least one good month of riding and then the story goes.
" I was going 30 mph the other day and the rear tire locked up. Thankfully I rolled to a stop with the clutch engaged but now the bike won't start." He later goes on to explain that he can't roll start it nor jump start it but the only thing the bike makes when he turn the key is a "click." hmm......
Very very similar to this post by OPTheory http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=38758.msg435291#msg435291 (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=38758.msg435291#msg435291)
So he doesn't want to fiddle around with the bike, and I think I got a steal. Based on history alone it seems to be a Goat doesn't it.
So I wanted to give you guys a running history of exactly what is wrong with the bike and some input on how to deal with Goat Syndrome... especially for a newbie.
I will post pictures as soon as I upload them and figure out how to use the forums better. Stay tuned.
.Alois
So here are some pics of my Bike
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3234/2783513182_9eb1fc1fbb.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3232/2782660221_a23a826335.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3234/2782655101_996f1d9634.jpg)
Tell me where to start somebody.
My plan is to drain the oil. take off the cover and inspect the starter and associated criminals.
Wow, I cant really tell you where to start but I like the looks of your bike man! I love the chin spoiler and the top fairing. For $400? Cool!
bahahaha!!! I was soooo close to buying that bike!!
If I weren't leaving for school in less than a week I would probably be making the same post you are. Congrats!!
FWIW, i'm down in Rochester
yup drain oil, and tehn check stator assy. and post pics when you remove cover, i gotta see what it looks liek , btw welcome aboard :thumb:
Looks great. You got it for 400? What a deal. :thumb:
Even if you have to replace the motor, $400 is a steal. Good luck getting her going! :thumb:
I have to agree. $400 is a killer deal, even if you DO have a blown motor.
Goats doesn't lock up the motor usually.
Cool.
Buddha.
Sounds like it was run low on oil and seized the engine.
Unable to turn over actuall is another indication of having a locked motor. Yes goats can quit charging, give you a short and do all sorts of electrical BS. But a locked motor will also need such a huge torque to turn it, the starter can not spin and the solenoid will just click in rapid order.
Cool.
Buddha.
I agree, it seems to be like an engine vs a goat. I will post as I progress.
Take off the left side ... that'll tell ya.
Maybe I'll snag my friends motor and crack it open too ...
Cool.
Buddha.
That is a very nice looking bike. I hope you can get it running without major pain...
The chin spoiler and upper fairing with some other things parted out on ebay would probably be worth the 400 bucks. It is a sweet looking bike. If it is indeed the motor it sounds like a good excuse to rebuild or transplant some more horsepower into it.
You got a steal get a new motor chuck it in and it will be great :) Love the looks, one of the best 'original' looks ive seen.
OK I hate to be the contrarian here ... and I wont say you didn't get a great deal ... that is not what the contrary is for ...
But people look at the damn pic and conclude the bike is great.
Yea it looks good. Definete. I have a huge soft cornet for the 89 ... my fave is the white, but black is a close second ... and yes its good.
Yes the chin spoiler the fairing and clip on's can be parted off for the 400 you have in it. And yes, you can do that and still use the bike ... thereby making it free ...
OK OK ... so where is the contrary ...
See the bike's good or no so good looks totally depends on the frame and how many spots of rust it has.
By the time you get the motor out (BTW 89's are freaking nightmares to get motors out and back in) they had the frame section bolts where you have to wiggle it further to the right than any other year before you slide it forward and out. Big huge PITA. And a new motor back in, you'd nick up the frame in so many more spots, it will all begin to rust soon after. OK It wont rust and fall apart ... but rust on the frame is one problem you have to combat.
The difference between a nice body set and a ugly body set, is 1-200 bucks. Getting a pretty body, that is what you have gained. Chin fairing, headlight fairing and clip on's will get you close to what you paid for it ... so you do have a free bike to work on and it will then work for you. That is a good deal.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: alois71 on August 20, 2008, 09:38:25 PM
Let me introduce myself. This is my first post about my FIRST motorbike a 1989 GS500. (I almost got a bandit but liked this bike too much). I got it off Craigslst in minneapolis for 400 dollars. The story is such.
Some guy bought the bike from his friend's wife for 200 dollars. It was apparently in a garage for a few years. Early this summer he took it to a local bike shop and had the following done (I am reading it off the receipt he gave me)
1. Brake fluid and Pads
2. New Front and Rear Tires
3. Carburetor Rebuild
4. Petcock?
5. Fuel chicken assembly.
Folks, this guy had the title transfered int his name in june, immediately spent (per receipt) 1200 dollars and had at least one good month of riding and then the story goes.
" I was going 30 mph the other day and the rear tire locked up. Thankfully I rolled to a stop with the clutch engaged but now the bike won't start." He later goes on to explain that he can't roll start it nor jump start it but the only thing the bike makes when he turn the key is a "click." hmm......
Very very similar to this post by OPTheory http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=38758.msg435291#msg435291 (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=38758.msg435291#msg435291)
So he doesn't want to fiddle around with the bike, and I think I got a steal. Based on history alone it seems to be a Goat doesn't it.
So I wanted to give you guys a running history of exactly what is wrong with the bike and some input on how to deal with Goat Syndrome... especially for a newbie.
I will post pictures as soon as I upload them and figure out how to use the forums better. Stay tuned.
.Alois
Lolz...I just saw that bike on Craigslist after it was posted over at MNSBR
http://www.mnsportbikeriders.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=31707&view=findpost&p=543000
I n the craigslist add, the previous owner said that he just replaced the "starter gear" which could mean that he screwed it up and the starter motor didn't disengage. Who knows...but welcome to the forum fellow Minnesota based GSTwinner.
Quote from: coll0412 on August 21, 2008, 10:44:24 AM
...
Lolz...I just saw that bike on Craigslist after it was posted over at MNSBR
http://www.mnsportbikeriders.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=31707&view=findpost&p=543000
I n the craigslist add, the previous owner said that he just replaced the "starter gear" which could mean that he screwed it up and the starter motor didn't disengage. Who knows...but welcome to the forum fellow Minnesota based GSTwinner.
If that is the case, then he has Starwalts. Much easier to check and fix... just pull the starter.
If the starter gear was replaced ... I dont see how it can "not disengage".
It can not engage ... oh yea ... spin free and never catch. Yea. Not disengage - I have my doubts.
But ... true starwalts is where the starter clutch is locked in the engaged position ... all the time ... and if the genius replaced the gear and not the clutch ... ofcourse you have starwalts with a new starter gear ... So you lose what, a starter and the starter clutch itself and needless to say, whatever gave it starwalts ... Goats ??? mild goats ?? super ultra mild goats light ???
If you have run it (and the clown did run it as per your original post) with anything other than super ultra mild light goats ... you may have magnet bits in the bearings/oil galleys. May have to rebuild, like goat did.
Cool.
Buddha.
oh i wanted this bike, i e-mailed the guy and never received a reply... guess you beat me to it.. :cry: :bowdown:
good luck getting it up and going, nice looking scooter..
So I went with dgyver's diagnosis of Starwalts disease. I decided to pull the starter.
I tell you what, working on bikes is fun and it really teaches you are sitting on. Confidence boost for sure.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3067/2786297648_0a0c05b70a.jpg)
I have not opened the starter yet, it is sitting next to me on the couch as I type this. When I shake it, to be frank, it sounds like utter crap. Like there is loose metal moving around Not like a metal can of nuts and bolts but still.....
I have a feeling my starter is going to look like starwart in this post..... I am tired (it is midnight) and I am on-call tommorow. (yes I am a doctor.. not a bike mechanic) I will post on saturday or sunday when I open up the starter.... but till then I am expecting something like what starwalt found in this post:
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=13774.msg117881#msg117881 (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=13774.msg117881#msg117881)
Yea ... good job.
Cool.
Buddha.
So I finally got around to opening the starter.
Take a look.....
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3102/2790600721_5194ca3d8b.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3229/2790600099_3fc5b97f1c.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3265/2791452792_0dd53cf37c.jpg)
Stalwarts.... For those who don't know
Starwalt's Syndrome (Disease) is the destruction of the starter motor due to the seizing of the starter clutch on the crankshaft while happily motoring along at any speed.
When the clutch locks onto the crankshaft, it instantly engages the starter gear, idler and then starter motor. The poor starter motor gets spun up to some astonishing RPM that causes it to fly apart internally and then continue to chew itself up to the point of total lock down.
This is a very bad thing and almost a total write off for the starter motor.
Thus my avatar.
The cure is removing the LH cover, pulling the generator rotor/clutch/starter gear and fixing the issue.
Where do I go from here?
The starter clutch set- $28 most likely, $150 rotor most likely, new oil filter, 4 quarts of your favorite oil. Hope the rest are okay.
I guess buy a starter (there were 2-3 guys with them - try this guy - erbilabuc - he done good for me) and open up the left case and see what else is afoot. Starwalts can be because of a total disintegration of the magnet and starter clutch ... you definetly want to see that the starter clutch runs the right way. Starter clutch had to be bought new, so get on it, and by monday you'll be ordering the stuff.
Cool.
Buddha.
That starter looks fine to me :laugh:
beautiful. :thumb:
yeah I have a starter that you can have for free and it works. Just pay shipping through paypal which is about 13$ now (8$ 4 months ago.....). Hurry though because I leave for Iraq on Wednesday.
You need to jump on that starter from erbilabuc. If not I have a couple also and will sell it for what I have in it.
I still think this happens because of no oil path to the starter clutch and the spacer. The clutch can be cleaned/filed up, but the spacer/shim must be replaced. If you can get an entire rotor/clutch assembly that is a faster fix.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/180718/Thumbnails/1343916Startergeardamagenoted.jpg) (http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/180718/1343916Startergeardamagenoted.jpg)
I had to drill out the bolts that hold the clutch onto my rotor and then dig deeper to find the problem.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/180718/Thumbnails/1343910Drilloutclutchscrews.jpg) (http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/180718/1343910Drilloutclutchscrews.jpg)
And the shim/spacer plate damage:
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/180718/Thumbnails/1343921Shimplatedamage.jpg) (http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/180718/1343921Shimplatedamage.jpg)
You can see where the clutch chewed into it. I plan to replace/test the oil pump and oil path to this section to make sure there is flow prior to really running this bike. I should get the big-stick whipping because I bought another GS (with carb problems) and have not finished this one! (Life, work, distractions, etc. It is an old story. :oops: )
i shipped the starter out this morning. Let me know how it goes.
Quick Note:
I have a starter in transit. I ordered a complete starter clutch on-line and I have a starter clutch slide hammer in transit.
Here are the latest pics after I pulled the LC cover.
Only "pathology" I found was the starter idle gear had a few teeth missing. It is going t have to be replaced. Anyone have an extra gear? :)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3085/2805150920_b019c9b116.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3018/2804300191_eff4d64eb3.jpg)
The good news is my stator looks pretty good. I will test it later though.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3037/2804298833_e9e88afea3.jpg)
Cheers
.Alois :thumb:
Oh nice catch young padwan.
And, you need a left case gasket too ...
Sorry, dont have gear ...
Cool.
Buddha.
The Starwalt Rotor Tool is on the way to you at the speed of UPS. Next Wed. (3rd) is the ETA.
Good catch on the idler gear.
Why are you pulling the rotor though ?
That starter idler gear and starter are needed, but I didn't see damage on the crank gear.
You suspect a locked starter clutch ??? is it not spinning in one direction - clockwise as you are standing on the left of the bike, it should roll free, anti clockwise, it should try to take the motor with it and hence not turn. Crank gear, not idler gear.
Cool.
Buddha.
Well, I thought i would at least inspect the starter clutch. I am trying to figure out why the heck it locked up and tyring to prevent it from locking up again. In fact, I am thinking about changing the oil pump too. It is true the starter clutch spins in both directions- not easy though. I guess I am now unsure what I should replace apart from the obvious broken pieces? I am confident if I replace the starter and idle ger the bike would start up but the word is prevention and identification. What were you thinking? Advise would be greatly needed.
.Alois
Oil pump ... why ??? no one that I know of has replaced that.
Oh, you have a bigger job on hand ... the busted up teeth ... where they go ? yea gotta find them.
The starter clutch could use a clean and replace (I think take it apart and its gotta be replaced. But if it spins fine in 1 direction but takes the motor in the other direction, yea its ok.
Why did it break the teeth ? manufacturing defect, hydrolock ... bad luck ... I dont see a locked starter clutch eating teeth on the idler though. Maybe it will. The reason I dont suspect that is ... the starter has the engine as load, but the engine starts running and a locked starter cluctch now takes the starter with it ... the starter is a very light load on the engine ... so teeth that stood up to the motor being driven by the starter are not going to die when the motor takes the starter.
BTW ... on a savage (650 1 cyl), the teeth will get eaten when the motor backfires at startup, because the crank will reverse direction with serious force and clean spin the starter in the reverse direction with it turning forward on the button. Insane. The savage's starter clutch will feel right at home on the USS Missouri, its that beefy. So maybe you got backfiring on steroids on that thing.
Cool.
Buddha.
I am going to pull the rotor b/c the starter clutch is the primary problem in Starwalts disease thus causing the sequale of idle gear --> starter ka boom. :2guns:
I have ordered an oil pump simply because this might be a chicken and egg relationship causing starwalts...
Per Starwalts original quote on 12/11/2004 http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=13774.msg119546#msg119546 (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=13774.msg119546#msg119546)
The starter gear has a brass liner with a hole and machined channels for the distribution of oil that is sourced from the hole in the crankshaft. If insufficient oil exits the crankshaft hole, insufficient oil gets into the channels. Not enough oil in the channels, not enough oil to prevent the starter gear from getting cozy with the shim or the opposite side of the starter gear and the crankshaft. IF a suffciently small particle escapes into this oil delivery system and gets between the starter gear and the shim...munch, chew, chomp.
And Wondertwin o 11.18.2006 referred to the oil as sludging stating http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=31916.msg352368#msg352368 (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=31916.msg352368#msg352368)
My comments on sludge didn't have anything to do with the dogs in the lock-up mechanism; that all seemed to be in pretty good order. I was thinking along the lines of sludge blocking an oil gallery and starving the little oil hole of its lubrication (thus siezing the big gear). Though the engine seems a bit gunky inside, it's pure speculation on my part. Heck, the dogs could have been glued in place, but sprung free when I tapped the gear off the rotor.
.Alois
Quote from: alois71 on August 28, 2008, 07:05:15 PM...It is true the starter clutch spins in both directions- not easy though...
Uh, shouldn't the clutch only spin/slip on the crank in one direction?
If both directions, then the clutch wont grab the crank when driven by the idler/motor train.
Since his clutch is not locked onto the shaft, like mine was, it won't hurt to be thorough while the patient is open and on the table.
An initial look in my GS parts pile showed no idler gear...so far.
Not idler really, I am calling the starter driven gear an idler (its defintely not).
Alois - I think you are taking the whole starwalts thing too literally. I had a completely shattered rotor and coil, I didn't get starwalts. I'd say its a very very small possiblity ... starwalts will remain very vrey rare for some time to come.
Your crank engagement gear spins on the shaft both directions = problem. Not startwalts, its just that your starter clutch is shot. Starwalts = its not spinning free in any direction. :bowdown:
Yea split it by all means. You dont want to ignore 1/2 problems and have it get much much worse, which it can here ... like I did (my rotor broke up due to the fact that my starter clutch was making a loud tonk sound at startup for a year, and I ignored it ... the vibrations must have gotten the magnet to disintegrate inside out.
Cool.
Buddha.
I am an idiot. But first the good news.
I got the slide hammer from Starwalt today, and although I didn't intend on taking off the gear and rotor I decided to give it one wack. Low and behold, the sucker came off way too easy.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3189/2828638183_94e8f8928b.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3211/2828637113_fef2e4cbd5.jpg)
Now here comes the super stupid thing I have done.
First the pic
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2171/2829476022_a5c678f224.jpg)
:cookoo: :cookoo: :cookoo:
The somewhat large hole in the bottom right. Well believe it or not, but a flipping DIME fell in it. It was stuck to the velcro on my glove and it luckily fell in! How in the hell do I get this out? I haven't really looked in there due to my immense frustration but I have a feeling that my simple job just got a bit harder.
And finally, similar to Starwalt. My starter gear is stuck to that rotor like one other. I will let you know how I get it off. (Thinking about dropping it from the top floor of my condo).
Just kidding.
Hey ... gravity is your friend ...
I was talking about that dime. Take off the oil pan and fish around in there ... should fall out.
Cool.
Buddha.
Just a few more pics. I got the starter gear off with one nice whack. and look what I found
(My wife offered to model the starter gear)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3019/2828722807_8b0d7c2f63.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3063/2828725579_7cf1e8da8c.jpg)
And
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3132/2828723409_19a122f430.jpg)
I am not sure if this is normal but one of the dogs completely fell out. the other two are difficult and I have not wedged them out. As you can see the spring for one of the"dogs" is completely trashed. Interestante!
Quote from: alois71 on September 04, 2008, 06:24:53 PM
Just a few more pics. I got the starter gear off with one nice whack. and look what I found
(My wife offered to model the starter gear)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3019/2828722807_8b0d7c2f63.jpg)
...that's hot...
Babes and gears rock. :laugh:
Quote from: theUBS on September 04, 2008, 08:25:56 PM
Quote from: alois71 on September 04, 2008, 06:24:53 PM
Just a few more pics. I got the starter gear off with one nice whack. and look what I found
(My wife offered to model the starter gear)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3019/2828722807_8b0d7c2f63.jpg)
...that's hot...
Babes and gears rock. :laugh:
:thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Cool.
Buddha.
Defo a bond girl out of You Only Live Twice :icon_mrgreen:
Do I detect a little thread creep here?
Back to work guys! That picture of the gear is certainly interesting, the teeth are very even and its always good to see such a well presented piece of machinery, I'll just go and have another look................. :laugh:
Just a few updates.
I still haven't recieved the stupid starter cluch shim 12649-45000. So i decided to just reverse it, it seems that one side had some scratches but the other was spotless and the fact that it is a part that doesn't move makes me feel slightly more comfortable.
So I had a hard time connecting the carburator, in fact I have to take the tank off again and re-do it. It seems that the previous owner had a wrong tube to the charcoal emmisions cannester.
After I get the carb figured out I will try to post a video of the bike running, or lit on fire, whicheve comes first!
.Alois
Quote from: the mole on September 07, 2008, 01:09:04 PM
Do I detect a little thread creep here?
Back to work guys! That picture of the gear is certainly interesting, the teeth are very even and its always good to see such a well presented piece of machinery, I'll just go and have another look................. :laugh:
both hands on the keyboard now :nono:
Mission accomplished.
So to recap. I fixed the starter clutch, changed the chain and sprockets. Changed fuel lines with fuel filter. Oil
+ oil filter of course and finally a clutch cable.
Starwalt, thanks for the tool, I will send it back to you asap.
Budda- your the man, everyone knows that.
So I have posted two seperate topics on the fact that my bike has been running bad after I got starwalts fixed and everything back together. I originally thought it was gas tank issues, then after I got it to consistentl start (changed fuel lines by then) I realized my mid-high range power was shot.
I originally thought my bike was a lemon. then I used the SEARCH function on gstwins and realized that it is most likely my clutch. As the same time it dawned on me that I put in a new clutch cable and obviously adjusted it wrong as my clutch was slipping. I almost gave in and took it to a dealer, but instead I just relaxed and came back to gstwins.
I have to tell you, I have never worked on a bike in my life. I do have minor mechanic skills... if it broke on my car I probably fixed it if I had the tools. I have to say, over the course of a month I got a bike from craigslist for 400 dollars. put in a few hundered dollars..... about 22.5 hours of work and trouble shooting part dismantling and reassembling I got the bike to run, and run well.
I have a helmet in transit. I will get one week of riding in, and then I expect my minnesota winter to come.
Again, thanks. and to the newbies out there. use common sense, don't force anything, stop working upon frustration, and ask for help after you search!
Cheers!
Alois
Quote from: alois71 on September 29, 2008, 12:41:08 PM
Mission accomplished.
I have to say, over the course of a month I got a bike from craigslist for 400 dollars. put in a few hundered dollars..... about 22.5 hours of work and trouble shooting part dismantling and reassembling I got the bike to run, and run well.
Cheers!
Alois
Sweet! You must have more patience than I do! Glad things have gotten going for you! May your fall be extremely mild! :cheers:
Well done! You've saved yourself some money and learned a lot, not just about mechanics. Have fun on the GS! :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: