After some motivation from Buddha
Quote from: The Buddha on August 21, 2008, 09:55:52 AM
Washers are really really easy. About the same work as doing air filter, I'd do it, and if mids are considered not as good, just skip them next time.
You have to get into the bottom - meaning taking the carbs off the bike when you do pilots and mains. Mids wont be any more work then if you even need to.
Who knows, you may be the driving force behind the washer mod. Now giddy-yup ... horse power is horse power.
Cool.
Buddha.
I decided to take advantage of a rainy afternoon and put some washers on the ol' carburetor needles and see if we could gain a little horsepower. The subject of this experiment is a 2006 GS500f with some appearance mods but an all stock intake and exhaust system.
This is what is needed for this mod:
Phillips head screwdriver
Needle Nose Pliers
#3 washers
WD-40 or something else to loosen screws
About an hour of free time
Poor Man's Rejetting Pictorial http://www.angelfire.com/mt2/mikesgs500/rejetting/
I noticed that there seemed to be a few differences between my 2006 carbs and the older ones in the pictorial so I took some pics of mine to compare.
First off I didn't have to mess with the rear plastics as in the pictoriali. Just remove the seat and loosen the two bolts that hold the tank on.
(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j22/nascarkeith/GS500F/carb009.jpg)
Then lift the tank and turn off the petcock as in the pictorial and disconnect the negative terminal from the battery.
Mark the fuel hoses and disconnect them from the tank. I didn't drain mine. I spilled a little gas on the garage floor but it evaporated quickly.
Then take the tank off. This is how mine looks without the tank.
(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j22/nascarkeith/GS500F/carb002.jpg)
Once the tank is off remove the screws that hold the top of the carb on as in the pictorial. This is where a $0.60 job that should have taken me an hour ended up costing about $15 and will end up having to be finished tomorrow. One of the brass screws stripped.
(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j22/nascarkeith/GS500F/carb008.jpg)
My wonderful wife had to stop on the way home from work and get me a screw extractor. I finally got the screw out but will have to get a replacement tomorrow.
The next steps are were the major difference came in for me. There was no o-ring on either of my carbs and the needle would not come out of the slide until you removed the white piece of plastic with the small spring that pushes down on it from the top. This is what the carb looks like with the top off.
(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j22/nascarkeith/GS500F/carb003.jpg)
This is the slide with the piece of plastic I was talking about having to pull out with some needle nose pliers.
(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j22/nascarkeith/GS500F/carb004.jpg)
(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j22/nascarkeith/GS500F/carb005.jpg)
This is what the needle looks like when it comes out stock.
(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j22/nascarkeith/GS500F/carb006.jpg)
This is how it goes back in. I am trying two #3 washers on each of mine as a starting point.
(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j22/nascarkeith/GS500F/carb007.jpg)
I got it all back together and fired it up. I was able to use the stripped screw put back in with some pliers to hold the top of the carb down good enough for the test cranking. Here is a short video of the result. It just sitting on the center stand in the garage so you probably can't tell to much about it especially with the not so great digital camera sound.
(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j22/nascarkeith/Videos/th_carb014.jpg) (http://s76.photobucket.com/albums/j22/nascarkeith/Videos/?action=view¤t=carb014.flv)
It seems to be running fine to me. It might idle just a tad higher than before but not by much. Just revving it on the center stand I can tell there is a lot more throttle response. Two washers may be too much for a stock setup. I may go to one after some test riding.
I'll post a review of its effects once I get that stripped screw properly replaced and the rain stops.
go to ace and get allen head screws to replace the carb screws. those OEM ones suck.
also, you've inspired me to put washers on my needles
60c horsepower huh?
Sounds like an extra 10 hp for only $6.00 would be a sweet deal! :laugh: :laugh:
Great post. i also tore my carbs apart tonight and ran into the same thing with the needle. im going with whole lot of new jets tomorrow though from dealer or buddha which ever get here first.......i too didnt have O-rings on top of my baffles and i too stripped out some screws but replaced them with ones from ace. alll today. i got the yamaha dealer to get the screws out for nothing though. Guy rode a Busa thats why.
It's amazing how big of a difference shimming your needles can make.
I have ordered a pack of #3 washers, I am now torn between upgrading mid mains and putting in washers. So my customers get both ...
Good post Nascarkeith.
Cool.
buddha.
Hey Buddha is that an either or option? Either upgrade mid-manes or shim needle?
Yea, however I suspect mids and the washers do the same thing and washers under needle are a bit harder ... especially if you are opening the floats anyway - you have to because you will swap pilots and mains ... However ... ACE hardware has #3 washers, 30c each, may well be faster and cheaper than me sending you now.
Run the 65 mids and try it out. Then get washers, dont do it all at once, you may over do one and under do another ...
Cool.
Buddha.
well because of all the posts ive read (esp. the poor mans rejatting ) i have already put 3 #4 washers on the needles. I actually had to open up the inside diamater a bit to get them to fit but they are on. Put everything back together W/ lunchbox just to see........and high RPM's does great but throttleing through 0-3500 RPM's it is very bogged down almost wants to die. AGAIN let me repeat havent put on any new jetts yet. just shimmed needles. im gonna start a new post about ????'s about what jett does what.
I did the same thing on my 250, only added one washer on each needle though. As they are kinda lean in the midrange, this took care of it, no more hesitation around 6k rpm.
Tony
Quote from: souljeroflight on August 26, 2008, 12:48:22 PM
well because of all the posts ive read (esp. the poor mans rejatting ) i have already put 3 #4 washers on the needles. I actually had to open up the inside diamater a bit to get them to fit but they are on. Put everything back together W/ lunchbox just to see........and high RPM's does great but throttleing through 0-3500 RPM's it is very bogged down almost wants to die. AGAIN let me repeat havent put on any new jetts yet. just shimmed needles. im gonna start a new post about ????'s about what jett does what.
Today is your day for getting ahead of yourself isn't it ... I was saying #3 ... #4 is too big, does not fit in that last hole.
Anyway, I am making kits for 01+'s, seen enough people get confused already.
Cool.
Buddha.
LMAO yes today is a day for getting ahead of myself :icon_lol: Just very anxious. Hopefully jetts yo mailed will come tomorrow and i can get it buttoned up. You did send 01+ kit?
Yea I sent the right kit. Tommorow is a bit optimistic, considering the guy in GA got jets from last friday (yes, 10 days ago) ... today. Oh yea, it went to 5 other further away states before him. :cheers: :mad: We got mad fay still to deal with. Pouring rain today, and it washed all the paint off my new POS nissan.
Cool.
Buddha.
Buddha you are great! please understand my over anxious, learn the hard way, ride even in the snow personality. :thumb: well my next mod is the rear wheel swap then im gonna quit for a bit with mods. wifey says im spending too much. :oops:
I might have to shim my needles, I bought some #4 washers when I rejetted but never put them in. I seem to have a little popping every so often which may have nothing to do with shimming but I want to see if it helps.
I got things finished up tonight by replacing all the stock carb screws with these
(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j22/nascarkeith/GS500F/carb003-1.jpg)
Fay is still giving us some rain here in Alabama so I still haven't got to test it out. I rode around the block at about 10 mph. At that speed a quick blip would raise the headlight pretty quickly. Hopefully it will be dry enough for a ride to work in the morning and a full report.
No you didn't ... float screws on a 01+ are 4mm and 10 long. The rack rail bolts are 5's as are the tops I wanna say ... but rack bolts dont have to be taken off ... ever. The tops I like the lock washer and the flat washer system of stock. I leave those be. Just float bowl bolts I put allen heads.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: The Buddha on August 27, 2008, 06:42:01 AM
No you didn't ... float screws on a 01+ are 4mm and 10 long. The rack rail bolts are 5's as are the tops I wanna say ... but rack bolts dont have to be taken off ... ever. The tops I like the lock washer and the flat washer system of stock. I leave those be. Just float bowl bolts I put allen heads.
Cool.
Buddha.
Come on Buddha you know what I meant. :)All the stock top screws like the one I stripped.
I guess this is what I should have said
I got things finished up tonight by replacing the stripped screw and the other 3 on top of the carbs with these.
Here is the report card
A+ Mod
Pros
Easy
Cheap
Much more throttle response
Little more power
Engine runs richer and thus cooler
Cons
Stupid Brass screws strip easily
Slightly decreased mpg
Makes you want a new sprocket for even more giddy up
I rode it to and from work today and the improved throttle response and punch are awesome. I never had to downshift on the interstate to pass and running through the gears on the on ramp was quicker. It did iddle a little too high but that was easily adjusted this afternoon. I'm sure this is not as good as a complete rejet but its quick and simple. As long as you have the time and the tools anyone can do this mod by following the info on this site and the wiki. As long as a screw doesn't strip its no problem.
After reading the comparison thread on the 15 vs. the 17 tooth front sprocket I will be ordering a 15 tooth soon. I will also probably drop a K&N filter in and see what happens. I have never gotten the 58 mpg Suzuki advertises. I usually average around 48-50 mpg. I will keep a check on that and see just how much the washers hurt mpg after a few tanks.
I really want to do this mod but don't clearly see where I put the washers....
Quote from: Skeets on August 27, 2008, 06:39:26 PM
I really want to do this mod but don't clearly see where I put the washers....
(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j22/nascarkeith/GS500F/wash.jpg)
The poor man's rejetting pictorial mentioned in above posts has some really good pics.
Thanks, I think I'm going to try this. I bought a High Perfomance KN Air Filter. I also ordered some flush mounts, and a new windscreen. Pics will be shown soon.
Quote from: nascarkeith on August 27, 2008, 06:09:21 PM
I usually average around 48-50 mpg. I will keep a check on that and see just how much the washers hurt mpg after a few tanks.
Ha ... my POS nissan makes 44 to the gal. What kinda scam is suzuki running wiht the damn thing ...
On a side note, the rains from H'cane fay - pouring rain in charlotte and the car's color turned from black to charcoal ... :mad: Soon I'd have a white car.
Cool.
Buddha.
Hey nascarkeith......i've got the 05 model that has the same carb as yours. so when i put my needle shims on it is very difficult to get the plug back in its set position. Did you have this problem and what did you do? Plug = tab w/ o-ring and spring.
Quote from: souljeroflight on August 28, 2008, 06:11:44 PM
Hey nascarkeith......i've got the 05 model that has the same carb as yours. so when i put my needle shims on it is very difficult to get the plug back in its set position. Did you have this problem and what did you do? Plug = tab w/ o-ring and spring.
I used needle nose pliers to get the plug in there. My fingers are too big. I lined things up as carefull as I could and then gently pushed in with the pliers. Then I checked them to make sure they were seated by pushing on them with my finger. You gotta be careful to line things up when putting them back in the carb or they can shoot out of there. Or so I've heard not that mine shot out and landed on the workbench 5 feet away or anything.
Yeah mine popped out a couple times. i was gonna put three washers on but i could barely get the two on and push the plug back in. i might try to use some NN pliers now with three cause im still a bit lean.
This seems like something i can justify spending money on :laugh:
I will add in a few washers on my 07 this weekend when i swap out the intake shims. Just to be clear, I need to buy 5mm x 12mm allen bolts to replace the top brass screws that seem to strip so easily? 12mm was the correct fit?
Now, when doing this mod on a 00' and older are you supposed to use 2 #4 washers on each needle? Or simply 2 #3 washers like on the 01's and up?
I've read a few different things and am still coming up a tad confused.
Also, do you have to re-sync the carbs afterwards? Any adjustment to the mixture screws needed, or would that negate the amount of fuel you're adding at idle?
I dunno... I think I'm missing the theory behind this.
Is it that instead of just moving you're idle up, you're moving the needle up to add more fuel throughout the travel of the throttle slide? Thus making your bike run rich?
Hell, if it helps, I'll do it tomorrow afternoon... I just need to know what washers for an 00' and if I need to re-sync the carbs.
Dan
Quote from: respite on September 17, 2008, 12:33:10 AM
This seems like something i can justify spending money on :laugh:
I will add in a few washers on my 07 this weekend when i swap out the intake shims. Just to be clear, I need to buy 5mm x 12mm allen bolts to replace the top brass screws that seem to strip so easily? 12mm was the correct fit?
Would like to know this as well.. Def. want to try this mod on a rainy day.
Wow.. how in the world do you guys get these shitty screws off? I am having a hard time getting any of them loose...! :mad:
EDIT: Got all but one.. Need the screw extractor! :mad:
I had a hard time getting the screws out. Managed to remove three with vice grips, one had to be extracted. I replaced them all with the suggested replacements.
Worked great with two #3 washers after i adjusted the mixture. Much smoother power. Check the other thread on this topic for details.
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=44208.20 (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=44208.20)
Quote from: respite on October 02, 2008, 02:10:22 PM
I had a hard time getting the screws out. Managed to remove three with vice grips, one had to be extracted. I replaced them all with the suggested replacements.
Worked great with two #3 washers after i adjusted the mixture. Much smoother power. Check the other thread on this topic for details.
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=44208.20 (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=44208.20)
How did you adjust the mixture?
I didn't resync carbs or adjust mixture. All I did was add 2 washers. A little more power but did not make it run much different. The screws suck. Glad you guys got them out without too big of an ordeal.
Quote from: nascarkeith on October 02, 2008, 04:09:45 PM
I didn't resync carbs or adjust mixture. All I did was add 2 washers. A little more power but did not make it run much different. The screws suck. Glad you guys got them out without too big of an ordeal.
Oh it was quite an ordeal.. went to Walmart to get a screw extractor and they had one set.. this one set was missing 2 out of 5. The best they could do is give me a 10% discount on it.. I said F U and will take care of it tomorrow morning (sisters b/f is bring an extractor).. The #3 washers I bought had a correct outer diameter but the inner diameter was too small so I had to widen them myself. Also, when you put the "plug" back in, how do you know when to stop pushing it in??
Thanks,
Yev
Just finished up and went for a ride. One word - SMOOTH..
well maybe two words - AWESOME!
Def. would suggest this to anyone who wants to make their bike a little bit more smoother :thumb:
Quote from: Danny500 on September 17, 2008, 07:59:18 AM
I dunno... I think I'm missing the theory behind this.
Is it that instead of just moving you're idle up, you're moving the needle up to add more fuel throughout the travel of the throttle slide? Thus making your bike run rich?
What's happenning when you add washers. What is the purpose of the needle. I understand cars pretty well so if there's a part on a car that it compares to that would help.
apparently you don't know cars that well. the closest thing to a jet on a car, is a jet. cars that have a carburetor or carburetors use them.
Quote from: jrains89 on November 06, 2008, 03:01:45 PM
apparently you don't know cars that well. the closest thing to a jet on a car, is a jet. cars that have a carburetor or carburetors use them.
Did I ask about a jet? I didn't think so. I asked about the needle. Seeing how you didn't answer my question, its probably safe to assume you can't. So maybe you need to read this topic " http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=43853.0 " as much as I did in order to understand what the needle does. That way, next time someone asks, you might be able to make yourself usefull. :thumb:
I dont get what size whshers you used..... wth size are #3 washers????
:dunno_black:
Ok, i worked out the size and did the mod.... I have an 07 GS500f and when i did this, it seemed to restrict the flow of fuel not increase it...
I used 2 washers on each.
Not so sure on this one, if anyone has any reason for this please explain.
I tried 1 washer on each needle and it worked better but it still felt like a large ammount of fuel was being restricted. I then put it back to stock (no washers), and got ANOTHER PROBLEM >:(
Now the bike is being starved for fuel (full fuel tank, and i did turn the fuel on before the tank went back on). Im stumped on this one so might take it to the dealer and see what they think.
REAP that does sound kinda odd. The only thing that comes to mind is maybe you kinked a fuel line when you put the tank back on.
Hmmm, will check now.
EDIT: Thanks nascar, the fuel line was kinked so i fixed that but i think something is still wrong with it.
Its back to stock but when it idles its low rpm. I give it some throttle and it dosnt want to pick up so i give it full then let off and it comes back down real slow. (f that makes any sence)
So it fixed one problem but found another.
Glad I could help. That is a problem that is discussed on the forum somewhere I just can remember what post it is in. Your saying it revs up high, kinda hangs, and the rpm's come back down slowly correct?
I just checked the wiki and turns out the bike is just running lean. Will work out how to fix it later. Im just too lazy at the moment :flipoff:
The original poster's picture has the washers installed incorrectly. They need to go on the bottom side to lift the needle higher, in turn enrichening the mid range.
No he's correct. He moved the plastic thing down. U just have to make sure they go below the clip which he did properly. I did this today and my bike runs so much better it's not funny
amazing. I opened my 2007 and has same type of carburetor as in the initial pictures in this thread. But the needle had just one shim below the white plastic. and none above the plastic (still above the plastic but below the snap so it is pushing the needle up as if it was below the plastic ring)
so if you count spacers below the snap ring, mine had 1 shim and the one in the picture had 3 before mod and 5 after mod! that is curious...
I went to ACE and got two types of washers but one was to big outside diameter and the other was to small inside diameter to fit the needle.....so I could do nothing...
I saw that there was one washer over the snap ring over the white ring (probably to help the little spring push against a shim and not the snap ring. Thought the snap ring was strong enough so put that shim under the plastic ring adding some more surface to push the needle up.
It really helped. The choke is more manageable. You can go full open and when it reaches 5000rpm you can slowly close it to stay in 3500 4000 for a minute or two. Then off and it stays in 1200. I can get the bike moving much easier (no playing "too much" with clutch and throttle)
Guess that now that I have the dimensions of the washers can go buy the correct one and add it another rainy day.
But always having some extra screws for the caps as I also had to take out one with the special tool as explained at the begging of the topic
Allright, this is my bike:
main: 145
mid-main :65
pilot: 22.5
Exhaust is a straight 1.75 - 2 inches back, only the harley muffler which is basically a straight pipe (debaffled)
it seems fine compared to stock, but I wouldn't know what a good running one felt right.
It starts up a little rich, but once its warm it don't smell of gas anymore.
Pops on decelerating at whatever gear.
I think that means I need to go up on the mid, which is what the washer mod would be for
Should I washed mod?
is #3 washer the same as 3/8ths?
How many to start?
# 3 washers come in 3 series .........R series with an inside diameter of 0.109", outside dia of.312", thickness of.032"
W series.109" inside diameter ,.406"outside diameter ,thickness .040"
and N series which is the one i think you need..109"inside diameter,.219" outside diameter ,thickness.025" But you will need to check this against your existing washers .This is about .6 of a millermeter and i thought our washers were thicker
Home depot dont have them, would harbor freight or lowes?
I think I want the r series. More horsepowerz!
(http://static.arstechnica.net/assets/2011/03/skeptical_owl-ars-thumb-640xauto-20444.jpg)
I only was able to get fiber washer at home depot (ACE did not have them) . Identical to the metal ones but fiber. Will they work? I guess that they will not be having a lot of pressure (just the needle)
should I go ahead and use them?
I wouldn't want to chance that melting being in the same environment with gas.
All this talk about #3 washers, I used #4 like this guide says:
http://www.angelfire.com/mt2/mikesgs500/rejetting/
Insert one or two #4 stainless steel washers btw the C-clip and the plastic doughnut.
Got mine at Lowes, .20$ each stainless steel.
#4 washers from homedepot were too big but #4s washer from lowes were the perfect size(just had to drill out the inside diameter a tiny bit). Save your money on screw extractors and buy one of these hand impact drivers (http://m.sears.com/productdetails.do?partNumber=00947641000P&sid=&psid=). Knocks the screws out like nothing. That said I did end up breaking one of the tabs that holds te needle and cap so the $0.60 mod ended up costing me $54. :mad:
I also was inspired by Nascarkeith. 2005 GS500F. Rapped lightly on the screws that hold the top cap on they came right out! easy, no stripping. I had a bag of assorted washers I bought at radio shack less than 3 dollars I think. Pulled the needles out put 2 washers under the clip put it back together. It started right up. I reved it up a bit sounded OK. Looked over at the work bench there were the springs that go under the top cap, the long soft springs. Doh! I took it back apart and put the springs in. Why did it seem to run fine without those springs?
Quote from: mike10 on March 04, 2012, 07:43:29 PM
I also was inspired by Nascarkeith. 2005 GS500F. Rapped lightly on the screws that hold the top cap on they came right out! easy, no stripping. I had a bag of assorted washers I bought at radio shack less than 3 dollars I think. Pulled the needles out put 2 washers under the clip put it back together. It started right up. I reved it up a bit sounded OK. Looked over at the work bench there were the springs that go under the top cap, the long soft springs. Doh! I took it back apart and put the springs in. Why did it seem to run fine without those springs?
Rapped with Impact driver real eazy like.