ive got a 1988 mazda rx7 convertible,(http://i2.ebayimg.com/03/i/001/10/4e/8852_1.JPG) similar to this, but in white. with the original 13b rotary. well teh water seals have died, necessitating a teardown and rebuild. also needing injectors so im looking at around 1200 to bring the engine up to 100% Soooo im contemplating an engine swap, im htinkin 305 v8, or a 4.3 v6 ( carbed), what would yall do, rebuilding engine ( rotary is not an option. too costly at this point), someone recommend a good swap candidate? ( engine/trans ) :icon_twisted:
Rebuilding the rotary is too costly but you're willing to spend the cash to do a V8 swap? that's great.
You can rebuild the rotary for under $500 with decent parts. I've done both several times and I can tell you that unless you're going with crap motors and parts, you're not going to do a swap for anything less than $4000 and that is with YOU doing all the labor...pulling the old motor and tranny, pulling the donor motor and tranny, figuring out the drive shaft and rear end, fabricating your own motor mounts, fabricating your own wiring, et cetera and so on. Even doing a 7m-GTE swap using junkyard parts still cost us $1800 and we were lucky for having been able to un-seize a block that was tought to be bad, and thus was had cheap. Doing a swap using a real motor along the lines of an LS1 would send you in the $7000+ area.
The only engines I would ever consider candidates for swapping into MY car would a 20B, peripheral port 12A (my favorite), 13BREW, 1jz-GTE, SR20DETT, or a VG30DETT. US V8's and V6's would be out...their heavy, wide, and long stroke motors aren't really suitable for the application. I would consider an LS1....LS1 is the perfect engine for everything.
Hit up rx7club.com and sift through their engine swaps. There's guys on there who've built peripheral port 12A's for $500 and under and are putting down 250+ rwhp all motor...and sound sick doing it.
Just looked it up and the pineapple racing water seal kit is $185. If all that's wrong are water seals are blown out that that's all it cost to rebuild the engine. Tearing the engine down is kiddy stuff, especially if you have something like a haynes manual...I did my first with no manual, I just put everything back together the way it came apart.
Now, I can't tell you what to do with your car...and I'm not trying to come off as sounding that way...I'm just trying to point out that, in no way, is swapping a foreign motor into the chassis easier or cheaper than rebuilding a 13B and I don't want you to kid yourself about it. There's been a million people out there who thought they'd do it because they figured it would be easy and cheap and now half finished projects hold their back yards down or they bought cheap engines and ended up in the same situation they were in before...a car with engine problems that's not saving them any money.
The only correct reason to do an engine swap is cool factor and you got to pay for it...and you might as well pay for it and do it right. Do something impressive. Spending the kind of cash it's going to take to put a reliable 4.3l GM engine is going to leave you with a 150lb heavier lump in the front that's only making 30 more horsepower at the crank...and rolling through a slushbox you're going to lose any gain you had there.
Quote from: makenzie71 on October 05, 2008, 08:04:14 AM
Rebuilding the rotary is too costly but you're willing to spend the cash to do a V8 swap? that's great.
You can rebuild the rotary for under $500 with decent parts. I've done both several times and I can tell you that unless you're going with crap motors and parts, you're not going to do a swap for anything less than $4000 and that is with YOU doing all the labor...pulling the old motor and tranny, pulling the donor motor and tranny, figuring out the drive shaft and rear end, fabricating your own motor mounts, fabricating your own wiring, et cetera and so on. Even doing a 7m-GTE swap using junkyard parts still cost us $1800 and we were lucky for having been able to un-seize a block that was tought to be bad, and thus was had cheap. Doing a swap using a real motor along the lines of an LS1 would send you in the $7000+ area.
The only engines I would ever consider candidates for swapping into MY car would a 20B, peripheral port 12A (my favorite), 13BREW, 1jz-GTE, SR20DETT, or a VG30DETT. US V8's and V6's would be out...their heavy, wide, and long stroke motors aren't really suitable for the application. I would consider an LS1....LS1 is the perfect engine for everything.
Hit up rx7club.com and sift through their engine swaps. There's guys on there who've built peripheral port 12A's for $500 and under and are putting down 250+ rwhp all motor...and sound sick doing it.
engine with 45k miles ( 305v8) and trans 350, exhaust included. ( WITH WARRANTY) injectors for said rotary, 93 a piece times 4, seal kit 220 plus shipping, apex seals, 53 each times six so if they did it for less than 500 they are using used parts, if not where did they get them cheap?!?
Send your injectors out to be serviced...pretty much any diesel shop will be setup to do it and if not there's half a million shops you can send them to online. Going rate is about $25 per injector plus shipping.
You didn't say the apex seals were bad. Apex seals don't need to be replaced if they're not bad. You said a water seal was blown. Tremendous difference and, if you'll look at my second post, you'll find that the pineapple racing water seals are $185 plus shipping.
rotaryaviation sells apex seal kits for $226 shipped. rhdjapan is $250 + shipping.
And I wouldn't trust a business that'd try and unload a 20 year old engine and tranny on me for $350...and, again, even if you could snag the motor and tranny so cheap, why go through such strenuous effort for such a lackluster drivetrain? You really do need to step back and look at this project as a whole. Don't just stop at what motor you're going to put in it. The motor may be the heart of the matter but I'm willing to bet you've never seen a heart flopping along down the street minding it's own business. If you're going to do something, do something big.
im not trying to get a high HP beast, im using stock rear end, i have access to welders and shop space, ( almost 6k square feet) so fab wont be an issue neither will wiring. ive wired things up far more complex then an rx was in its wet dreams
Quote from: makenzie71 on October 05, 2008, 07:17:45 PM
Send your injectors out to be serviced...pretty much any diesel shop will be setup to do it and if not there's half a million shops you can send them to online. Going rate is about $25 per injector plus shipping.
You didn't say the apex seals were bad. Apex seals don't need to be replaced if they're not bad. You said a water seal was blown. Tremendous difference and, if you'll look at my second post, you'll find that the pineapple racing water seals are $185 plus shipping.
rotaryaviation sells apex seal kits for $226 shipped. rhdjapan is $250 + shipping.
And I wouldn't trust a business that'd try and unload a 20 year old engine and tranny on me for $350...and, again, even if you could snag the motor and tranny so cheap, why go through such strenuous effort for such a lackluster drivetrain? You really do need to step back and look at this project as a whole. Don't just stop at what motor you're going to put in it. The motor may be the heart of the matter but I'm willing to bet you've never seen a heart flopping along down the street minding it's own business. If you're going to do something, do something big.
its the local pull-a-part :laugh: :laugh: i wont use "rebuilt injectors. ive no fire insurance on my car :thumb:
Well throw a budget out there...you can do so much better than the 305. You may think now "I don't want a high power beast" but you know you really do. Plus, with the 305 what you're going to get is a low power gas guzzling slushbox that weighs 250lbs more. Even going with american engines you can do better than the 305...
yeah i know. im trying to keep budget under 1k which can be done. this can be done with either of the two afore mentioned engines, or a 350, engines are all aorund the same price. only concern is the oil pan/sump, will have to modify that. ( NP been there done that) but i look at it this way, im starting with a lo-po engine, which can be built up, either 305 or 350 or hell the 4.3 can do this. but not goin high power until i upgrade rear end. ( which is in the works) and trannies, im still torn, id rather have a manual, rather than an auto any day :thumb:
That's one of the biggest reasons to stick with Japanese engines. We've crammed 7m-GTE's, 1jz-GTE's and even a 2jz-GTE into FB and FC chassis' and they all needed minimal modification to handle the 5spd trannies made for the engines. Hell, the 7m was so easy that even wiring it all you had to do was cut the connectors from the dash/body harnesses off the RX and match the wires to the corresponding pin on the 7m ECU.
I've seen one GM swap RX with a decent manual tranny...LS1/T56 combo...and it wasn't cheap. However, SR20's and 5spds are a dime a dozen...but no matter what you do converting a vert to a 5spd is a chore all it's own using factory parts. If nothing else you can always just buy another RX longblock. You can get good engines for a LOT less than $1000...you could even do a turbo swap on that budget.
I wouldn't worry about the factory rear end until you're getting in the 300whp area.
i had a 1980 chevy luv i wanted to stuff a 327 into. but circumstances prevented the venture and i sold the truck to a crusher for 50 bucks. (on the plus side i got really, really hammered that weekend. ) :laugh:
ive no idea what 7m-GTE's, 1jz-GTE's and even a 2jz-GTE crap means, i speak english err, say x engine out of x car, but using late model engines, and transmissions, ive also got to swap computers, and wiring. whereas, a carbed engine isdone with minimal fuss :thumb:
to quote special T.... "google is your friend" :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
naah i dont watch too fast to furious, too many times, i jsut say what it is. if i have to google a reply to comprehend it, i dont pay much attention to it
Supra engines and Nissan 240 engines.
Carb'ed engines leave you a lot more to do than just stab the motor in, especially if you want to have a functional dash. This is what I'm mean...don't over simplify it.
LS-1 :bowdown: lol
I know they make kits for the rx-7 applications. A distant friend of mine swapped one a couple of years back. It was indeed very sick. In a very good way. :thumb:
is this just for the sake of an engine swap ?
i'd personally just rebuild the stock spinner, and enjoy -not- having to fix piddly crap every week, or rigging things to work. there always seems to be something that isn't quite right with a non-stock swap.
of course there is a fun side to having a 327 in a chevy luv though (been there, done that years ago) but with gas prices of today, no thank you.
:) good luck with the toy !
Quote from: makenzie71 on October 06, 2008, 03:12:12 AM
Supra engines and Nissan 240 engines.
Carb'ed engines leave you a lot more to do than just stab the motor in, especially if you want to have a functional dash. This is what I'm mean...don't over simplify it.
Or theres figuring out how to get computer from car a to work in rx7, and engine from car a. with transmission. Nooo thank you. not needed. thsi crap i can do myself. get a gauge kit, wire it in, along wiht tach, oil temp, water and fuel
the supra engiens 1 are hard tofind around here, and when found, are eitehr riced err ragged out, or expensive. hell ive found ls1's WIHT transmissions, sub 2k. i guess its all in the location of teh donor part. ( like where its from and such)
Read the posts...wiring the dash off the 7m ECU was just a matter of matching signals. It was easy. Speedo was even compatible. You're not going to find that with a US engine. I'm offering advice as someone whose been there and done that...11 conversions under my belt, I may be worth listening to.
You'd have to hunt an engine. You can buy full clips from Jarco for under $2k delivered to your door and have EVERYTHING. Rabidchimp sells fresh 7m blocks with metal gaskets for under $1500 shipped and you can get an R154 from a supraforums member for under $250, and all the wiring and supporting nonsense for another $250. That's some barebones stuff, though. This isn't the only route, though.
Lets look back at your idea and say you go for that $350 305ci and slushbox. What are you left with in the end?
an engine and transmission . which runs :thumb:
why not just do a tear/rebuild of your current engine? :dunno_white: i'm sure you can do upgrades etc. almost every jap car has a huge aftermarket niche. :thumb:
A rebuild of the factory motor, or replacement with the same motor will always be less expensive than a swap to something else in a car like yours. Engine swaps are very involved and unless you have mad fabrication skills your car could be out of commission for months. Trying to sort out everything that goes with an engine swap can easily be overwhelming and extremely expensive. Think about it, likely factory drivelines/ drive axles can't be re-used, will your transmission mate to what you have in mind? If not, you need a transmission and then have to figure out engine/transmission mounts. Then there is fuel delivery, and all the electrical issues. How are you gonna run the speedo? these are just a few of the hurdles you would need to clear if you want to do an engine swap. Working in the service department at a Honda dealer- you wouldn't believe some of the jacked up attempts at engine swaps I have seen, even on swaps as well documented as a b16 in a Civic. Also, you better know everyhting about your car when you are done because you will have a hard time finding a technician that will want anything to do with your Frankenstein car. That's the opinion of this ASE certified Master Automobile Technician anyway.
my opinion is htis i AINT GOT HTE $$$$$$$$ to properly finish mine. as far as rebuilding the 13b. it is NOT economically feasible. nor are donor engines available ( hell i wish they were, but along im lookin at around 400 for injectors alone. not counting everything esle im sure of, and probnably otehr costs ive yet to discover :icon_confused:
i think i'm going to agree with bikejunkie on this one. if you can't afford to rebuld your current engine, i doubt you can afford to swap a completely different engine. but hey, that's just my opinion. it's your cash buddy, spend it how you chose. :thumb:
Quote from: jserio on October 06, 2008, 09:48:24 PM
i think i'm going to agree with bikejunkie on this one. if you can't afford to rebuld your current engine, i doubt you can afford to swap a completely different engine. but hey, that's just my opinion. it's your cash buddy, spend it how you chose. :thumb:
if only it were cheap to build a rotary. but im not finding this to be so. and it being my only car atm. it has to be done. im driving a loaner now. :mad:
if both options are too expensive then why not a third option. buy another cheap beater car tha runs to get you around until either you come accross something better you can afford or you get the cash to get your car fixed. :dunno_white:
Quote from: jserio on October 06, 2008, 10:42:19 PM
if both options are too expensive then why not a third option. buy another cheap beater car tha runs to get you around until either you come accross something better you can afford or you get the cash to get your car fixed. :dunno_white:
almost non existant atm :mad:
Damn yama sorry to hear this issue man. I remember the days of $100 beater cars, don't even register the smbitch in your name just drive it till it blows walk away and call a friend to come get you then go buy another beater. I was usually the guy that called to come pick someone up. Hell my ex-bro inlaw drove a beater for over a year one time.
Quote from: jserio on October 06, 2008, 09:48:24 PM
i think i'm going to agree with bikejunkie on this one. if you can't afford to rebuld your current engine, i doubt you can afford to swap a completely different engine. but hey, that's just my opinion. it's your cash buddy, spend it how you chose. :thumb:
Wow- you agreed with me twice in like a week! Never thought that would happen :cheers:
Look for an 88-91 Honda Civic. You can find those nearly anywhere in the $1000 range (might be beat up but who cares?) Will run forever and get 35mpg all day. Those are some of the best cars Honda ever built.
damn, you said something else i agree with...am i becoming soft? :laugh: :laugh:
p.s-i've changed my mind who i'm voting for..... :icon_mrgreen:
lol i can do some trading, with a buddy of mine on an 86 chevrolet 1/2 ton pickup, thing runs, smokes a bit at startup, but i can get it, sub 200.( in trade) i mihgt go for it, while i fab the rx, and jserio, i wont be voting for that guy, and perhaps not hte other one either. but i WILL be voting. hell i might vote for my cousin ( bob barr ), hell idk atm , anyhoo back to stewin over what to put into hte maz. i think ive settled on the 350/350, gauges were given to me today, so thats taken care of. hell i can always use a gps if need be. ignition will be via a race car ig switch panel. already sourced one of those ( 5 switch, and one start button, i wlil fab and hide a hidden kill switch)
Why not just use the RX-7 ignition power supply to run the ignition? No panel...you just put the RX-7 key in the RX-7 tumbler, turn it, and vroom...
And start shifting as much weight back as you can...you're turning a mid-engine car into a front engine car and the weight bias is going to go all the hell. You'll need beefier springs and shocks up front and you're going to nee to brace the hell out of the engine bay.
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on October 08, 2008, 01:08:58 AM
lol i can do some trading, with a buddy of mine on an 86 chevrolet 1/2 ton pickup, thing runs, smokes a bit at startup, but i can get it, sub 200.( in trade) i mihgt go for it, while i fab the rx, and jserio, i wont be voting for that guy, and perhaps not hte other one either. but i WILL be voting. hell i might vote for my cousin ( bob barr ), hell idk atm , anyhoo back to stewin over what to put into hte maz. i think ive settled on the 350/350, gauges were given to me today, so thats taken care of. hell i can always use a gps if need be. ignition will be via a race car ig switch panel. already sourced one of those ( 5 switch, and one start button, i wlil fab and hide a hidden kill switch)
+bump for some common sense about the beater truck, for $200. trucks have a bazillion uses, but usually folks only make payments on them (helllllllllo, it's a f%$king TRUCK!) and never actually use the box.
what you need friend, is exactly that truck, haul your butt around, drag parts back for the rx-project, and eventually, when more common sense prevails, drag that rx-project to the next suckers house ! ;)
i don't vote, don't care. they all lie, and no matter -what- they say, they have absolulely no idea how the rest of the world lives. <---- there, beat that
I think if you want to put a 350 in an rx-7 you also may want to get acquainted with a plasma cutter- the length and size of the engine is gonna be a big problem in a lot of ways- seems like those rotary engines are fairly compact and a big v8 isn't, and neither is a Turbo 350. Have you thought about a 4.3 V6? it's basically a 350 w/ 2 cylinders cut off, but the height is still gonna be an issue. Also, you are gonna need way stiffer springs in the front to accommodate the extra weight and it likely won't handle very well anyway. Sorry to sound so negative- I'm just trying to give you an idea of what will be involved before you drop a bunch of coin on a project that may not be completable.
Also, that beater pickup is a good idea except for the tons of gas it will drink. Smoke on startup is usually an indication of worn valve stem seals/valve guides- an issue, but not a big one- just a first indication of an engine getting tired.
An SBC is about 150lbs heavier than the 13B in the car...but a vert RX-7 is anything but light anyway. The problem is that half of the weight of the engine is in front of the crossmember...which changes a LOT. You're going from a mid engine car with mid engine handling to a front engine car and nose-heavy handling. Not reallly bad but it's different and it takes a lot more work to make the car handle well.
A 350 fits in the engine bay pretty good, actually, as well as does an LS1. The engine bay is actually really forgiving. The problem is the crossmember. The RX crossmember does not mix well with...well...anything but a rotary engine. Either oil pans need to be chainged or serious modification will ensue...just don't get all bent out of shape when you realize that it may actually be easier to pull the engine to change the plugs than doing it in the car...little things like that are what the big bitches are.
i did a chevy small block 350v8 swap in my 1984 Porsche 944. great engine for the price!
Go with the LT1 if u have the money, otherwise a 327 or 350.
i wish rx7 didnt break down after 100k+miles they are fun to drive
I'll point out that my second RX-7 had 225,000 miles on the original motor when I sold it...running very nice. They need to be taken care of properly...none of this "let the oil run 10,000 miles then change it" bullshit.
Quote from: makenzie71 on October 08, 2008, 11:55:02 AM
I'll point out that my second RX-7 had 225,000 miles on the original motor when I sold it...running very nice. They need to be taken care of properly...none of this "let the oil run 10,000 miles then change it" bullshit.
Don't you wish everyone approached basic maintenance with the same mindset? There would be a lot more trustworthy used cars out there! I think a lot of people buy the rx-7 and run it without any knowledge of the direct oil injection (coupled with just not changing it often enough! :mad: ).
Yama--I think I'd probably buy the truck if it's running decent. It will be a pain to feed though. I've been very blessed by my $300 '87 Accord purchase. It too smoked a little at start when I bought it--and still continues to do so 6 years later. :thumb:
Anything when properly maintained will last for a very very long time. Most people are lazy and dont take care of shaZam!.
Quote from: shiznizbiz on October 08, 2008, 05:29:19 PM
Anything when properly maintained will last for a very very long time. Most people are lazy and dont take care of shaZam!.
177,500k oncurrentmill. ig switchisbad, .lol i bought a basket case. i think i re visited swap idea and am goin 4.3/autocasue most of those autos will take a 350 directly