OK I saw it on Bill Bennet saturday night. And He said had america lost their standing in the world ... and this lady who was a guest (dunno her name but she was black and fairly young) said ... she disagrees that america has lost it standing and she went on to cite how she saw a bunch of people take a citizenship oath and how they were all so proud etc etc ...
OK total BS and completely facetious reasoning ... why ??? to become a citizen ... it takes 10 years at a minimum more like 15 ... I could ahve in 2006, I got here in 92. May be I could have got my green card a shade sooner ... so I'd say 10 years at the earliest. So these people who are becoming citizens now, have been in the US for atleast 10 years if not more.
So if they had a chance to get out it came over 10 years ago. Most people by the time they get here they are out of options. I cannot now move to say australia or england ... I am 40 and have a kid, family, career and bikes ... I cannot even go back to India. So If I go for a citizenship now, I am doing so because of lack of choice not due to choice.
In the 80's-90's to study or to work, america was the holy grail ... to study especially it was really far far far and away the #1. Medicine, computer science, most forms of engineering especially aerospace and transportation and industrial engineering, and to work in software, or medicine or most other engineering fields. Recent times america has lost the #1 in everything ... in some cases to the most unexpected of countries. India has taken the software and medicine as well as some other engineering fields like nuclear science and what not to a higher level. Some of europe also has taken the lead in other fields. So ... my prediction is, in 10-15 years there will be many fewer as well as lower quality of people taking that citizenship test.
Now the biggie - will Obama restore the #1 standing.
In medicine if he is backed by 8-12 years of similar policy (stem cell and other cutting edge research) I'd say yes.
In engineering - We need a depression for this, and no one wants to allow it to happen. A depression is going to destroy china and china will in effect realise the folly of selling things to the US under their cost just to cripple the US manufacturing base. When we go, we'll take 1/2 the world with us. A bail out effectively gives china time to un link from the US and insulate themselves as well as have the bail out money go to them directly by way of our debt service.
The US is still english speaking (and its fast changing and will be temporarily reversed by a depression) and hence education wise attractive to the students in most of the world. Obama will not do anythign about either ... and that is just fine.
So - Obama can but needs will and support.
However ... and this may be how he can ... biggest way to accomplish the goal of the #1 ...
He can stop the current tradition of electing the stupidest person in the room cos he appeals to "Joe Six-pack".
Its going to take a lot of very educated and smart people all working toward a common goal ... and we cannot elect who we think is the best person to have a drink with ... we may be Joe Six-pack but I prefer a president who is a little elite.
Cool.
Buddha.
Obama, himself, is not "elite" by any means (he "acts" elitist). He is however, a puppet of those who are truly elitists. Moreover,
soccer moms and morons that have been spoonfed guilt (and with whom it has taken effect) along with star-struck Hollywood buffoons, Marxists, Socialists, Feminists, habitual parasites, and men who have been psychologically castrated cry out for his guidance and wisdom to wrest these terrible United States from the evil demonic "white men" that have had it for so long. Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa OBAMA...................."he'll know what to do".......
He's nothing BUT a skinny ass effeminate snakeoil salesman with a degree in public speaking.
Bush was ... "He's nothing BUT a skinny ass effeminate snakeoil salesman with a degree in public speaking" and a complete idiot who thinks in 1's and 0's.
--------------------------
McBain is all of the above + really really really old.
Palin is all of the above to the ----- + conniving, conceited and a religious nut.
Ron Paul was our only hope, else anarchy is the next best option.
How did he endorse the constitution party guy ???
Why did he not go back to the libertarian line of thinking.
Cool.
Buddha.
Ron Paul was my pick. But I don't want this tinhorn (Obama) as Commander in Chief of our armed forces protecting the United States!
You can NOT have this kitty cat defending the UNITED STATES of AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why don't you "get it"????????????????????????????
Ehhhhh ... defending what ... oh, like attacking another defenseless country under false pretenses and not going to the defense of a true democratic ally (georgia) because the enemy in this case is actually ... like got some teeth (russia) ... that sorta defense ... oh yea ... we wouldn't want that at all ... no way ... no how ... we may get beaten ... I mean not insurgents blowing up with IED's, I mean well and truly beaten, war ships sunk, aircraft hit and blown up, and many people captured ... like a real war ... not one where we try to beat up on a defenseless little country and all they have is insurgents ...
First step to solving any problem ... acknowledging there is one.
Obama has taken that first step in several fronts. 1 - Lack of experience in foreign policy and he picked the best option that was in front of him. 2 - The loss of standing in the world. Atleast he has mentioned it. If he does somehting about it, remains to be seen. McBain is oblivious to it. Obama may use diplomacy where he should have used force, however we used force unneccesarily and under false pretenses so far, so its time to err on the other side, besides we dont have any army left ... we're already stretched too thin. So its either diplomacy or nothing till we get all the troop strength back.
We go up against a real threat at this point ... we'll get our asses handed to us. That's why even bush isn't doing anything ... not that he doesn't want to ... and bush isn't capable of diplomacy ...
We dont want this tinhorn as commander in chief of our armed forces - however we dont have to worry about it for a few more years, we have no armed forces.
Ron Paul will have effected a faster withdrawal than either of these 2. Only complaint you can have against Obama in that case is ... he's not fast enough in with drawing.
Cool.
Buddha.
Obama says hell doit, yet i feel as though he has no idea how
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on October 08, 2008, 09:07:47 PM
Obama says hell doit, yet i feel as though he has no idea how
You talking about withdrawing from Iraq ? Iraqis are begining to want us out. Now While evereyone is patting themselves on the back with how succesful the surge has been and this and that ... we need to get out of there and see what it looks like in 6 months to a year before the all around congradulations.
The Iraq area for 1000's of years have had, sheites, sunni's, arabs, persians, turks, ottomans, Kurds, and assyrians (who are christians) all fighting with each other or forming alliances with each other to fight the others etc etc etc ... 1 year of a troop surge isn't going to do squat. We get out, and 6-12 months later that whole area is going to drop into civil war ... not just Iraq, most of the middle east.
Anyway, we have to wait and see ... Ron Paul was for immediate withdrawl, Obama is for a withdrawl that is a bit more phased.
Now restoring the standing of the US in the world. Much more subjective. Unneccesary war on false pretenses against really weak enemies etc etc can help, as will actually knowing and treating foreign policy like its one of the significant aspects of policy and some real progress in medicine and other fields will start the ball rolling. We'll need 8-10 years of that to get the #1 spot back.
Cool.
Buddha.
we shoulda let Patton drive accross russia and plant our flag when he wanted to. :2guns: :icon_mrgreen:
There is a new world order comming ... and it will start when oil is no longer the defacto fuel.
I am betting on solar.
In 1 hour enough of it hits your house to cover your energy needs to a whole year. You need to tap it, trap it and keep it. That is the whole game.
We do that, and oil will drop to 10c a barrel, and most countries that depend on it for their $$ will starve to death.
Cool.
Buddha.
Well, they'll starve after we get back the money we gave them for oil, by selling them grain.
Hey buddha. i know you know this cause you know it all , but pretty much it was voted into being by much of congress, liberals included. BUT based on info which was not complete. essentially was true, ( recent discovery of "yellow cake" which could be interpreted as an ingredient of a WMD), but im not referring to iraq. im more referring to the economy or other issues involving money and such, ( excluding war aforementioned) f%$k id like us to get out of iraq, im getting really depressed escorting people whom i consider heroes to their final resting place. ( see avatar) BUT its somethign i consider my stateside service. id liek to see or read obamas plan on doing what he says. taxing corporations wont do it. corps dont pay taxes. hell have to figure out how to raise the fundage to put into place his ideas. a novel idea is this. EWliminate UNNECCESSARY pork barrel spending/earmarks. that for the most part would pay for his plans
But earmarks are small change in the budget. SMALL change. One percent of the budget. We have to reform our government entirely.
Go here and watch the Oreo story:
http://www.truemajority.org/fun/ (http://www.truemajority.org/fun/)
We can spend a LOT less on defense if we truly use our defense department on defense of our country, not on pointless invasions to make obscene profits for the war machine. We need to get out of occupying Iraq AND Afghanistan, take out Al Qaeda and Osama Bin Forgotten with special services and black ops -- Get back to truly defending our country. My $0.02. :cheers:
We would never ever ever do such a thing as that would be a blatant disregard of EO12333 and its' subsequent amendments.
Quote from: spc on October 09, 2008, 09:52:10 PM
We would never ever ever do such a thing as that would be a blatant disregard of EO12333 and its' subsequent amendments.
DWTF is that?
and we were offered bin forgotten in the mid 90's several times but we declined. i wonder why?
Executive Order 12333, among other things declared that assassination under basically ALL circumstances is illegal and would not be practiced by the US...........but you could have found that out by googling just as you could have found out by googling that the reason we didn't move on OBL in the early 90's is that we didn't perceive a threat............most circles thought of him as an under the table ally seeing as we supplied nearly all of the Talibans' weapons to them.
Quote from: spc on October 10, 2008, 12:14:54 AM
Executive Order 12333, among other things declared that assassination under basically ALL circumstances is illegal and would not be practiced by the US...........but you could have found that out by googling just as you could have found out by googling that the reason we didn't move on OBL in the early 90's is that we didn't perceive a threat............most circles thought of him as an under the table ally seeing as we supplied nearly all of the Talibans' weapons to them.
iddnt say assassinate him, assuming again terry , chill with teh fuckin attitude. he was a wanted man at that point, we could have had him, we declined
I won't get involved in US politics 'cos that is the business of US voters but the premis in the origional question used the phrase "standing in the world"
The world is changing all the time and i think the day of a dominant country being the object of envy and generaly imposing it's will, rightly or wrongly, on other countries is a fading concept. It is true and will probably remain true for a while that the dominant trading and manufacturing country or block invariably becomes the foremost military power. This does not seem to have changed through time since the Roman empire and was true when the British stopped being the global policeman and that "priveledge" fell on the U.S.
Life is now rather more complex, China is the manufacturer to the globe and rising fast in other areas, the US and EU are still giant economies with huge potential, India has become a telecoms and IT powerhouse. The oil producers and regions rich in minerals and other recources like minerals, Africa and South America have the potential to get rich if only they could sort themselves out politically and financially. Some people say that the oil producers are holding our nuts but ultimatly those with the grain, meat and freshwater might be holding theirs.
My point is that the day of any one country be pre-eminent in all areas, art, sport, science and industry are probably over for ever with those things being spread around.
As to America's standing in the world, despite what some say i think the world has an affection and RESPECT for the U.S. and it's many great acheivements. In general this is about your people not individual politians. I have to say that generally the world is mystified by your almost constant state of electoral campaigning and some of it does no credit at all to the participants but we love you, warts'n'all. - Whoever you elect!
Lastly remember to vote early and vote often - and if you don't vote don't Buddha Loves You about what you get.
Quote from: spc on October 09, 2008, 09:52:10 PM
We would never ever ever do such a thing as that would be a blatant disregard of EO12333 and its' subsequent amendments.
I just heard on NPR yesterday that exceptions are regularly made by Presidents, and would be easy in this case due to the "WAR ON TERROR" (add spooky reverb here). We have done it forever. It cannot be any MORE illegal than half the stuff we have done in Iraq, starting with the invasion and culminating in Abu Graib and other torture.
Besides the legality, it is TONS more ethical and moral than occupying another country.
Bush was a damn puppet...........hell they're all puppets.
Who was he a puppet of ???
Cheney ? religious right ? GOP politburo ?
Sorry, If we had one puppet from 1 side, its time to get a puppet from the other side.
Though I think the labor and unions will destroy us ... true free market should be allowed to take hold. Unions ahouls only enforce contracts and fair labor laws.
Heck, government's main task should be to enforce contracts and not much else.
Cool.
Buddha.
You'll get a puppet from the "other side"?
There ain't no "other side" my friend. Political conservatism and liberalism is just an illusion. It's smoke and mirrors.
Get it? There (in the political arena) is no "right and left". "They" who pull the puppet's strings couldn't care less.
The objective is the same. Just use the one............or the other to accomplish the agenda. The sheeple will
follow. Well..........most of them. You are about to become a "global citizen" and pay "global taxes". Oh.....you
think you do now? Well then,.....................you'll be paying MORE taxes than you are now. How 'bout that?
The global bankers are sitting up in the capstone............laughing at the sheeple at this moment. Get it?
Hey Revere2,
for a long time I've had the same idea that the 2 party system is to keep us citizens intertained.
If I remember right, all US presidents since Ike with the exception of Reagan where members of an organization with an interesting charter.
Any person who is a member of this organization has to resign from it if they become a head of state.
However, if you are a member of this thing, one would assume that you've baught into the ideoligy, so no matter which side of the political aisle you're on, you have the same goal in mind.
Rather interesting.
Besafe
PJ
Quote from: trumpetguy on October 10, 2008, 06:27:41 AM
Quote from: spc on October 09, 2008, 09:52:10 PM
We would never ever ever do such a thing as that would be a blatant disregard of EO12333 and its' subsequent amendments.
I just heard on NPR yesterday that exceptions are regularly made by Presidents, and would be easy in this case due to the "WAR ON TERROR" (add spooky reverb here). We have done it forever. It cannot be any MORE illegal than half the stuff we have done in Iraq, starting with the invasion and culminating in Abu Graib and other torture.
Besides the legality, it is TONS more ethical and moral than occupying another country.
and according to john murtha D-Pennsylvania, the soldiers are nothing more than KIllers of innocent civilians, and other suchg crap, and pbamas comment about air raiding villages, killing innocent civilians and shaZam!. hell TG sometimes Torture is necessary. sometimes the enemy does not /WILL not talk. sometimes, those people are the link between our soldiers/civilians safety and not. hell since the "torture" as you, and every other liberal spouts, no other act of terrorism has occured. think about that. torture needs to happen in some cases, cant wait for the courts to order wiretaps, or other actions nor can you count on them to keep their mouths shut. hell 9 times out of ten, i think the enemy gets their info form the clinton news network, err CNN as fast as we do. and those soldiers in murthas case/accusation were acquitted, and have yet to hear an apology from him
Yama, LISTEN to what you are saying:
"Torture is sometimes necessary." "Torture needs to happen in some cases." Wrong. Torture is illegal, it is counter to every principle of civilization, and it is the province of dictators and fascists. NOT AMERICANS. I am ashamed that you would think such a thing.
Do you deny that, as war veteran Murtha said, there has been killing of innocent civilians? War is a horrible and inexact science. It should never again be a pre-emptive thing, only defensive. Those who order war, especially an unnecessary war, bear the responsibility for ALL of it, including the actions of renegades and crazies in our armed forces.
Cheney/Bush, all their co-conspirators, and all of their apologists share responsibility for the murder of innocent civilians. No lies = no war. After 9/11 we had the world on our side. Now we have wasted American and Iraqi lives, at least $600 billion taxpayer dollars, and we have lost credibility. Mission Accomplished, I guess.
Thank YOU puddle jumper! Absolutely!
Trumpet Guy..........there are times when one needs to extract information by any means necessary.
Yes, that might include being held in a backroom in Calcutta with 480 Volts AC applied to your testicles.
It's one of those things that we have to do in order to get "what we want". God forbid that it happens to any one of us.
But it could..............this old world has some strange shaZam! going on in it. Despite what the "tv" tells us and all the media........
we are NOT getting on "love train/peace train" or sitting around a campfire singing Kumbaya.............
There are very evil forceful entities in this world. Each of us has to be determined to deal with them when the time arises. The way to deal with "them" is MORE force than they apply to "you". They see kindness as a form of weakness and will exploit it to the maximum.
The fear OF the United States of America has been our saving grace in the past. It is dwindling due to liberalism and panty-waisted representatives that are bankrupting our system. There IS an agenda. And it's against US.
If you think for one moment that torture produces results, think again. Our enemies are not going to give us useful information if we torture them. They'll sing like a canary, but it will likely be all false. And, as we have found out, whatever they say cannot be admitted in a court of law.
The worst result will be that every one of our troops who is captured will be tortured and they will feel justified in doing so. It is wrong on every level. And you wanted to call the ACLU anti-Christian? What do you call torture?
What is ABSOLUTELY certain is that we are stooping to the same level as the terrorists (and the Japanese and Germans in WW2) by torturing and condoning torture. We signed the Geneva Conventions, we have rules of honor in our military. We insult those who came before us if we lower ourselves to that, no matter what the excuse.
Torture is a must ... I routinely torture all your carbs and they spill all y'all's dirty little secrets.
If torture is allowed, erase it form the blooming constitution, many countries have torture not mentioned. Do not circumvent it and say ooooh, we didn't think this was subject to constitution ... or, oh, that's OK I never read the damn coinstitution, I thought duck Cheney was following it and I was just going by what he said.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: trumpetguy on October 11, 2008, 09:05:44 AM
Yama, LISTEN to what you are saying:
"Torture is sometimes necessary." "Torture needs to happen in some cases." Wrong. Torture is illegal, it is counter to every principle of civilization, and it is the province of dictators and fascists. NOT AMERICANS. I am ashamed that you would think such a thing.
Do you deny that, as war veteran Murtha said, there has been killing of innocent civilians? War is a horrible and inexact science. It should never again be a pre-emptive thing, only defensive. Those who order war, especially an unnecessary war, bear the responsibility for ALL of it, including the actions of renegades and crazies in our armed forces.
Cheney/Bush, all their co-conspirators, and all of their apologists share responsibility for the murder of innocent civilians. No lies = no war. After 9/11 we had the world on our side. Now we have wasted American and Iraqi lives, at least $600 billion taxpayer dollars, and we have lost credibility. Mission Accomplished, I guess.
taken out of context as i would expect. murtha accused a group of our soldiers of horrific crimes for which tehy were exhonerated. and as of yet no apology. im not denying his service at all. in fact im actually thankful for it. and kerrys and kenneddys and everyones alright, 1 if torure is illegal, where stated?, you said it so you can answer. not google. if i said it, id be expected to do the same. and if no torture, okay fine. how do you get the info from someone who has it. but will NOT divulge? :dunno_white:
NVM i stand corrected, just remembered about teh geneva convention ( regarding torture)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Geneva_Convention ( looking through it for reference to torture. hell im hurting like hell right now, and my searching is not up to par atm. if anyone finds it in thei GC excerpt, can yall let me know. im sure its there, but not sure where :thumb:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture damn i stand corrected again :oops: frig, TG has two up on me :bowdown: , if you feel that strongly, hell start a challenge in the court system if you must. even if it does nothign. it will at least get you heard O0
Ummm, yeah. Nevermind that anyone 'tortured' by US personnel has been found to be an 'unlawful comabatant' by tribunal and thus not legally afforded the protections of the Geneva Conventions.
TG, it could be just me but I got a kick out of the irony in you being so opposed to torture yet so ready to have a major ideological figure assassinated without a proper trial. We afforded Saddam as much, why should OBL be afforded any less?
Frig terry i forgot about the unlawful combatant caluse. damn im down three today :mad: , btw terry when you goin back in? i know you want to :bowdown:
Whenever the hell St L forks over my 214........we're over 3 months and counting :mad: :mad: :mad:
I may end up back in the Army, in which case they can just run a REDD report for my RE and SPD so I'll be able to sign virtually same day. I'm having quite a bit of fun getting back in shape for now though and if I end up going back in the Army I'll try to weasel into an 18X contract (Infantry school then Airborne the SFAS)
NICE man, if when you do go in, and more than likely deploy, before you go, we party :cheers: that is a- promise, adn one which i will NOT take no for an answer O0
Quote from: spc on October 11, 2008, 09:27:14 PM
Ummm, yeah. Nevermind that anyone 'tortured' by US personnel has been found to be an 'unlawful comabatant' by tribunal and thus not legally afforded the protections of the Geneva Conventions.
TG, it could be just me but I got a kick out of the irony in you being so opposed to torture yet so ready to have a major ideological figure assassinated without a proper trial. We afforded Saddam as much, why should OBL be afforded any less?
No one who has had a tribunal has been tortured to my knowledge. It's all been suspects. There have only been a few tribunals and even then torture-produced evidence has been suppressed.
My point about the assassination is -- which is more ethical: getting 100,000-1,000,000 civilians killed and 4,000+ American soldiers or black ops assassinating the leader?
Quote from: trumpetguy on October 11, 2008, 10:42:48 PM
Quote from: spc on October 11, 2008, 09:27:14 PM
Ummm, yeah. Nevermind that anyone 'tortured' by US personnel has been found to be an 'unlawful comabatant' by tribunal and thus not legally afforded the protections of the Geneva Conventions.
TG, it could be just me but I got a kick out of the irony in you being so opposed to torture yet so ready to have a major ideological figure assassinated without a proper trial. We afforded Saddam as much, why should OBL be afforded any less?
No one who has had a tribunal has been tortured to my knowledge. It's all been suspects. There have only been a few tribunals and even then torture-produced evidence has been suppressed.
My point about the assassination is -- which is more ethical: getting 100,000-1,000,000 civilians killed and 4,000+ American soldiers or black ops assassinating the leader?
100k civvies killed BY WHOM and iwth evidence. prob is you can support the "liberal rant" with evidence. cause there is none. cant tell who killed em, either the coalition or the iraqis or the al-quaeda. and the high civvy count has been somewhat disproven before. although it is still there. but again cant tell/prove who killed em. and i respect the liberal POV, although many times i disagree with it. i still respect it :thumb:
Quote from: Revere2 on October 08, 2008, 08:21:12 PM
Ron Paul was my pick. But I don't want this tinhorn (Obama) as Commander in Chief of our armed forces protecting the United States!
You can NOT have this kitty cat defending the UNITED STATES of AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why don't you "get it"????????????????????????????
haha. I'm in the Army and I DO want him as Commander in Chief. What now tough guy? :icon_rolleyes:
For those of you that think torturing people is ok I have three words
WRONG MOTHER FUCKER.
I'm not sure how America arrived at this idea that torturing people is ok. "We're the good guys and we just need information to save the world. A little harm for a greater good"
WRONG AGAIN.
Did you know that the United States has never tortured enemy combatants, ever. George Bush broke this tradition ending over 230 years of no torturing (Go Bush woot woot, make daddy proud).
Did you know that torturing people does NOT provide accurate information. People will say whatever they can think of to stop from being tortured.
Did you know that by torturing enemy combatants we legitimize terrorist tactics. Don't get upset when Joe Snuffy over in Iraq gets abducted, then terrible things are done to him. You better not cry foul because America is doing the same shaZam!. Oh yea doesn't seem like such a good idea when it's our soldiers being tortured but if it's the other side that's ok. Yea that makes sense.
And the FINAL reason torture is wrong is IT'S f%&ked UP. We're supposed to be civilized human beings. People were tortured during the dark ages. It's wrong, immoral, and unethical.
If you think it's ok to torture people then you are seriously f%&ked in the head and need some perspective. You can't torture another human being because your "War on Terror" is important.
:dunno_white:
Quote from: tussey on October 12, 2008, 01:35:09 AM
For those of you that think torturing people is ok I have three words
WRONG MOTHER f%$kER.
My opinion
Ill ask you like i asked TG, ( and am still awaiting his response.) i do not know your place in the army. but on a side note TY for your service as well. now that aside. if it were your position to "interview" those nmecombatants, and toture being wrong and you would NOT do it. how would you get the info or anyhting from them? ( hypothetically)
I think McCains stance on torture is the right one. No way No how.
Our Intel people in WWII were very good at getting Info from the enemy.
Although we like to paint the enemy as something less than human, They are very much like anyone else. If you are held captive you are scared, lonely, homesick, etc.
A good interviewer can use all these emotions as psychological tools to get info from someone without the torture.
I would like to also give a big Thank You to all of the service men here, My brother is in the service and looks to be deploying soon. This will be his third. He was in desert storm and wants to end his career with one more "Party" as he puts it.
You guys give more than the rest of us can imagine, and for that I thank you!
Besafe
PJ
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on October 12, 2008, 01:45:42 AMhow would you get the info or anything from them? ( hypothetically)
Torturing people doesn't "get you the info". Firstly, I would hold people against their rights in a prison outside US soil with no scrutiny, no oversight no accountability. Also did it ever occur to you that you can interrogate people with out using violence? Cops seem to do it everyday. Maybe we should ask them.
You can't offer them candy or especially money. You "could" offer them protection from those who WILL KILL THEM if they talk.
If while under torture, one gives the incorrect information (and it truly is deemed incorrect--a lie) just to "stop" the torture, the next "session" will be even more brutal or it will result in your demise. All these things are known beforehand or should be known before "going to war" or even joining the military. In ages past soldiers (esp. ones with a high clearance and knowledge) going into very hot zones with a likelyhood of being captured were given "pills". You knew good and damn well "what they were for".
Face it. It's a part of inhumanity. "What does the future look like? A jackboot stomping the face of mankind forever"--Orson Wells (I think)
Get used to it. Prepare yourself. The people that you hated in High School are now your leaders.
You should ask SPC on this issue...........he probably can "give it to you straight".......
WHAT? The military doesn't torture people? Are you CRAZY??????????? Of COURSE we torture people. We always have. I guess it must have "different names" or has been "redefined".
Quote from: tussey on October 12, 2008, 08:17:41 AM
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on October 12, 2008, 01:45:42 AMhow would you get the info or anything from them? ( hypothetically)
Torturing people doesn't "get you the info". Firstly, I would hold people against their rights in a prison outside US soil with no scrutiny, no oversight no accountability. Also did it ever occur to you that you can interrogate people with out using violence? Cops seem to do it everyday. Maybe we should ask them.
we cant hold them outside the us anymore, ( as you say). some on the left got them constitutional rights
yeah i'm all for fairness but it is hard to crack down on crime when the criminals abuse the rights they have thereby tying our judicial systems hands.
Quote from: Revere2 on October 12, 2008, 10:38:41 AM
In ages past soldiers (esp. ones with a high clearance and knowledge) going into very hot zones with a likelyhood of being captured were given "pills". You knew good and damn well "what they were for".
Source?
Quote from: Revere2 on October 12, 2008, 10:43:55 AM
WHAT? The military doesn't torture people? Are you CRAZY??????????? Of COURSE we torture people. We always have. I guess it must have "different names" or has been "redefined".
Dude I don't want to insult your intelligence but you need to get your facts straight. The US does NOT torture (until recently). Our armed forces abide by the Geneva convention which prohibits mistreatment of prisoners of war. In the Nuremberg trials we sentenced individuals to death for waterboarding, one of the torture methods we use in Guantanamo today. Very sad how hypocritical we have become.
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on October 12, 2008, 12:02:52 PM
we cant hold them outside the us anymore, ( as you say).
We certainly can and do hold them (which is wrong). Guantanamo Bay has many prisoners.
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on October 12, 2008, 12:02:52 PM
some on the left got them constitutional rights
Oh you mean those rights which are INHERENT in any human being? Let me quote, from the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence
Declaration of Independence
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that
all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with
certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Let me define unalienable for you.
Natural rights (or inalienable rights) are rights which are not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs or a particular society or political organizations.
i.e. They apply to
EVERY HUMAN BEING ON EARTH.
5th Amendment (para phrased)
"No person...shall be be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."
Consider this a lesson.
so our constitution and bill of rights, and Declaration of independance apllies to not only us citizens but every personon the face of the earth. ? wow i never knew, heh ill be damned and btw no need ot be an ass about it :nono: and gitmo was/is a place where people considered enemies of this country arent on its soil. , essentially they cannot do us any more harm :laugh: 8)
I'm sorry I'm sorry. I apologize..............
Torture was the wrong word. The word "interrogate" was the one I was looking for! Under "interrogation, would being beaten by a strop that was cut to a specific length with a double handed handle specifically built for it be considered "just interrogation"?
I'm just wondering and wandering here........thinking back.............
If a man had a goatee (chin whiskers) and was held and a guy pulled out a large tuft of it with a pair of pliers and it bled profusely, would that be interrogation or torture?
If I was on an elevator headed up to a cell and the elevator was stopped and I was beaten by 3 men with batons until I was a crumpled mass on the floor, is that "a form" of torture?
I think all the aforementioned is pretty mild compared to what would happen to someone being "interrogated" that was a known enemy combatant and meant to do you and your country great harm.
All these lightweight examples just happened to common citizens that had it done to them or were performed/aided by them.
Edit: Mr. Tussey,
I think we (meaning the US) wrote the book on torture. I think back in '96? President Clinton's Oversight Committee forced the Pentagon to release/declassify the owner's manual for torture. It's methods ran the gamut from nudity to brutality to coersion to execution and all in betweens. I believe the school was in Florida and moved to Georgia and I think it is scheduled to be closed a couple of weeks after this next election. I think it is called the School of the Americas. It probably had something to do with operation Phoenix as well. I was reading something about Vietnam having around 40 "interrogation centers". But I believe that we've been doing it for a lot longer than that. It ain't something that makes the evening news, that's for sure. All this recent stuff (being naked and cold and awakened at night (hell that happens to me NOW!! hahahaha) and being led around by a leash and exposed to live pigs seems like a walk in the park compared to "old school stuff". Peace, love, and sweet dreams
If you still don't believe that torture has been going on long before now, allow me to direct you to a partial showing of the book "A Question of Torture". Please read the last paragraph on page 67 continuing onto page 68. It's here............
http://books.google.com/books?id=-sa-nUI3HGMC&pg=PA67&lpg=PA67&dq=K.+Barton+Osborn&source=web&ots=FLlAlDYZ-4&sig=AjvSU3D-6u7hqaDj1Y3xS6IKT3c&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#PPA67,M1
Quote from: tussey on October 12, 2008, 09:28:15 PM
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on October 12, 2008, 12:02:52 PM
we cant hold them outside the us anymore, ( as you say).
We certainly can and do hold them (which is wrong). Guantanamo Bay has many prisoners.
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on October 12, 2008, 12:02:52 PM
some on the left got them constitutional rights
Oh you mean those rights which are INHERENT in any human being? Let me quote, from the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence
Declaration of Independence
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Let me define unalienable for you.
Natural rights (or inalienable rights) are rights which are not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs or a particular society or political organizations.
i.e. They apply to EVERY HUMAN BEING ON EARTH.
5th Amendment (para phrased)
"No person...shall be be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."
Consider this a lesson.
do teh alquaeda fall under the uniform clause of the geneva convention?
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C01E4D71E30F933A25750C0A9649C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all
America has certainly lost its standing. the dollar is low, our deficit is high. we have been exposed as a white elephant super power. we are in another Vietnam and getting our asses kicked. the greed that has led to our economic decline also shows the world that we do not have a grip on our internal affairs. so what if it takes 15 years, more or less, to become a citizen. we have more people in jail per capita than any other country 1 in 100. we also are the only "developed" country to have a death penalty. we try children as adults and those with mental illness as sane. our health care is in shambles and we have over 2 million uninsured. even if you are insured you can't afford your medications. we live in a police state that allows citizens to be wire tapped with no court order and allows for detention for "security". we think we are all that and a bag of chips when in reality we are a fat undereducated society of idiot. we have no idea what goes on in the rest of the world. we get our news in bits from so called "news services" that are more entertainment than news. our standing is truly flawed.
Frank, I agree with your post about 99%. We can talk about the health care later. Now.....................will you please inform some on this forum that the United States (military and black ops) DOES torture people...........AND they have done it for a long long long time.
Thanks man. I realize you were an Lt. Commander and you might not be able to "come right out" and might have to "dance around it",
but..................could you please inform some of these people about their flawed perceptions vs. the truth. Thank you.
yup that economic greed as you call it frankie, has been going on for several decades. we are so f%&ked no matter who is in power. someone or somehting will always have us by the balls :mad: