OK first idea, hit the chineese imports with tarriffs. Stiff ... 60-80%. That will make chinese stuff more $$ here.
Then china will retaliate by increasing tarriff on stuff they get from US. AKA, coal, steel, and other raw materials.
Now these 2 will make it cheaper to make things here and sell them here.
Anyway, just an idea, it may also help china get off the dollar, which will make their stuff $$$$ ... and its more fuel to start making it all here.
Its not quite protectionism as I see it ... we just call it an environmental and labor standards tax. Because china is dumping tons of pollutants in the air, water and soil as well as imprisoning millions of people for political reasons and working them to the bone in jail. Its only fair that we set it even. As they start dumping less pollutants and raising their labor standards ... we will lift that tax.
Cool.
Buddha.
tarrifs is what caused the great depression...check it out. we do not want china selling off the US dollar because it will cause a fee fall effect. like it or not china has a huge stake in the US and anything that damages them damages us. see below
Trade decline and the U.S. Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act
Main article: Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act
Many economists have argued that the sharp decline in international trade after 1930 helped to worsen the depression, especially for countries significantly dependent on foreign trade. Most historians and economists partly blame the American Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act (enacted June 17, 1930) for worsening the depression by seriously reducing international trade and causing retaliatory tariffs in other countries. Foreign trade was a small part of overall economic activity in the United States and was concentrated in a few businesses like farming; it was a much larger factor in many other countries.[10] The average ad valorem rate of duties on dutiable imports for 1921–1925 was 25.9% but under the new tariff it jumped to 50% in 1931–1935.
In dollar terms, American exports declined from about $5.2 billion in 1929 to $1.7 billion in 1933; but prices also fell, so the physical volume of exports only fell by half. Hardest hit were farm commodities such as wheat, cotton, tobacco, and lumber. According to this theory, the collapse of farm exports caused many American farmers to default on their loans, leading to the bank runs on small rural banks that characterized the early years of the Great Depression.
Well during that time america used to export finished goods like steel plate, textiles etc etc and we imported gasoline and other items. Not from china but from europe.
We now export coal and iron ore, and import everything.
The US will not get that same effect from tarriff out of other contries now ...
They dump the dollar, they instantly lose their largest customer. And they peg against the euro, its going to be much higher $$ all around.
Our problem is frankie ... we dont have any one doing real work. They were building houses, selling houses, selling mortgages based on those houses ... they need work.
Cool.
Buddha.
most wealth is on paper and not real...IE real-estate. which is why this crisis is so much more worse than before. it is all about real-estate and that is normally a solid investment that one can always fall back on. but since many of us bought property that is now 20-40% or more in decline we are truly in trouble. the banks that held the mortgage bonds are now on shaky ground. with out the security of real-estate we are all in serious financial trouble. not to mention our trillion dollar deficit.
Try 10 trillion ... and that is just what the govt will admit to with their funky math ... 60+ trillion including the entitlement bomb.
However, during the depression, RE was the first to start the slide. It goes and we have depression.
I think we will collectivly not be able to bail out much more and its going to end very very badly in under a year.
Cool.
Buddha.
forget it. imports are not the reason for a crappy economy. here's my take:
1 people over spend on stupid crap like huge suv's, huge houses, and huge credit card debt
2 people don't budget
3 people refuse to believe they can and will be broke one day
i say bring on the depression and teach people a lasting lesson. make it a 5 - 10 year lesson and maybe we won't do it again in the next 100 years.
nah, that won't work. two generations and we forget all our past:
see that war over thar ?
Here's my take. It's all an illusion anyway. All is based on "futures'. There IS NO balanced spread sheet in truth. Any President that says he did it is a damn liar (in recent times-Clinton). There IS NO Social Security fund. That's right. Nothing. Not a dime. All is based on money coming in versus money going out(and "future" projections). More people sitting in the wagon than pulling the wagon. All "projections" are based on the USA economy. Your first target should be the Federal Reserve Banking System. A private organization not affiliated whatsoever with the "Federal" Government. The Bankers and their puppets (our Congress, President, and all their minions) are responsible for all this shaZam!.
We were taken off the "Gold Standard" long ago. The value of the American dollar is the USA economy. Those that control it do NOT have YOU/us in their best intrests.
Quote from: ohgood on October 16, 2008, 04:06:44 PM
forget it. imports are not the reason for a crappy economy. here's my take:
1 people over spend on stupid crap like huge suv's, huge houses, and huge credit card debt
2 people don't budget
3 people refuse to believe they can and will be broke one day
i say bring on the depression and teach people a lasting lesson. make it a 5 - 10 year lesson and maybe we won't do it again in the next 100 years.
nah, that won't work. two generations and we forget all our past:
see that war over thar ?
also add on irresponsible govt spending . from ALL branches, and which war. there are 2 of them so far.... :dunno_white:
What we are seeing is a simular situation that started the great depression, in that people bought on stock on the margin and the market called them in, and today people are living on the margin through credit. What no one has been discussing with regards to the housing market is the cost of an entree level home has exceed the the average persons ability to purchase these homes. My little above the avg. entree level home in 99' cost me 140K and when they re-evaled the same home 3 yrs ago with no additional changes they estimated its value at 235K. The moral of the story is simple, there is an inequlity in the distribution of wealth in this country and the top 1% has significantly increased their wealth. I worked in nursing home as the director of the social service dept. and I seen this first hand, you would be amzed on how much medicare doesn't cover and the costs associated with care. OUR HOMES ARE NO LONGER SOMETHING THAT WE PASS ON TO OUR CHILDREN, IT IS HOW YOU WILL PAY FOR YOU HEALTH CARE IN THE FUTURE! Who can afford to purchase my home at its current maket value in my area, the casino workers who make $8 -$12 per hr? I am not talking about socialism as a fix but equity within our country. If the middle class is financialy distroyed, the country will follow, since our country is supported primarly by the midle class, they are killing the cash cow! I feel what started this financila instability can be traced back to the great S&N failures of the 80's where we didn't learn our lessons. Followed by the tech fall of 2000, ( how can you have a person invest in a company that only exsists on paper?), and we learned no lesson. recently it has been associated to free credit and an over inflated housing market! The foundation of all of this is clear and simple GREED, on all sides! Sorry about the rant ! -- JIm :)
for the most part, hard work begets wealth, occasionally the lottery/inheritance, but mostly hard work/ambition. ive never gotten a job from a poor person. so the last thing i want is someone saying this guy opver here, hes workin a lil bit. has nothing, so were gonna take some of what you make and give it to him/her :dunno_white:
Quote from: frankieG on October 16, 2008, 01:10:28 PM
most wealth is on paper and not real...IE real-estate. which is why this crisis is so much more worse than before. it is all about real-estate and that is normally a solid investment that one can always fall back on. but since many of us bought property that is now 20-40% or more in decline we are truly in trouble. the banks that held the mortgage bonds are now on shaky ground. with out the security of real-estate we are all in serious financial trouble. not to mention our trillion dollar deficit.
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k2/yamahonkawazuki/muwaha.gif) yup
Quote from: jhutch2115 on October 16, 2008, 08:35:09 PM
What we are seeing is a simular situation that started the great depression, in that people bought on stock on the margin and the market called them in, and today people are living on the margin through credit. What no one has been discussing with regards to the housing market is the cost of an entree level home has exceed the the average persons ability to purchase these homes. My little above the avg. entree level home in 99' cost me 140K and when they re-evaled the same home 3 yrs ago with no additional changes they estimated its value at 235K. The moral of the story is simple, there is an inequlity in the distribution of wealth in this country and the top 1% has significantly increased their wealth. I worked in nursing home as the director of the social service dept. and I seen this first hand, you would be amzed on how much medicare doesn't cover and the costs associated with care. OUR HOMES ARE NO LONGER SOMETHING THAT WE PASS ON TO OUR CHILDREN, IT IS HOW YOU WILL PAY FOR YOU HEALTH CARE IN THE FUTURE! Who can afford to purchase my home at its current maket value in my area, the casino workers who make $8 -$12 per hr? I am not talking about socialism as a fix but equity within our country. If the middle class is financialy distroyed, the country will follow, since our country is supported primarly by the midle class, they are killing the cash cow! I feel what started this financila instability can be traced back to the great S&N failures of the 80's where we didn't learn our lessons. Followed by the tech fall of 2000, ( how can you have a person invest in a company that only exsists on paper?), and we learned no lesson. recently it has been associated to free credit and an over inflated housing market! The foundation of all of this is clear and simple GREED, on all sides! Sorry about the rant ! -- JIm :)
Exactly. The other thing that is interesting to me, is that in the past war has jump started the economy but this time it hasn't for the simple reason war costs way more now than it used to. That and the fact that wars
used to end back in the day- unlike today's bullshit that will go on for years to come. The American economy will be effed for years after this garbage and the middle class taxpayer will shoulder the burden once more for the gambling rich bankers, and we will elect another typical tax and spend liberal in 3 weeks or whatever and it really won't matter. I don't think McCain would be any better at fixing this either since neither of them have the balls to tell the bankers "sorry you gambled on home mortgages and lost your ass- that's what makes buisness risky" if it was a sure thing everyone would be in that buisness. Until Americans can learn to live
within their means and not off credit, this country will always have a volatile, unstable economy.
What we need is a sharp recession. Pleas for help from wall street should be answered by the FBI leading out the CEO's in cuffs.
Everything will crash. The markets the whole kit and kaboodle. Then they just wait. Yes for a brief period we will hit high unemployment. However soon ... very very soon they will realise they can make things here cheap and there is the man power to do it as well as machinery sitting idle.
Loose money makes people borrow needlessly and spend foolishly. The great depression lasted so long due to government intervention.
BTW there are laws that say payrolls cannot be carried over for more than 2 weeks etc etc, the credit being tight, they can suspend that rule, but the company cannot skip those payments. When the accounts receivables are received, the workers must be paid. The workers cannot also be let go due to credit crunch. And if you are letting people go you have to settle accounts with them.
There are several things they could have done that would have avoided the 850 billion expense in the name of easing credit.
Living on credit is bad, even if its a whole country ... especially a country.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote1 people over spend on stupid crap like huge suv's, huge houses, and huge credit card debt
2 people don't budget
3 people refuse to believe they can and will be broke one day
Wouldn't it be refreshing to hear one of the prez candidates state these facts? Unfortunately, they couldn't get elected dog catcher after uttering the obvious truth. We can't take the truth. We would kill the messenger.
Picture this: You're a working class family of four. You open up you're credit card statement and discover you owe $120,000+. Would you freak out? Don't worry, 20 cents of every tax dollar you pay is going toward the interest. The principal? Uh...we don't pay anything on the principal. In fact we're charging more every day. Maybe we should put the 20% toward the military budget. We're going to need it to fend off the angry creditors.