okay, seems to me that all bikes either are shaft drive, chain, or belt. i know there gotta be ups and downs to both. i'm looking to my motorcycle guru's here on gstwins to help me out. what are the pro's and con's of all types? and which would you prefir to have and why?
Shaft = never adjust or replace chain or sprokets - $$$$$$$ if it brakes
Belt = almost never replace and if it brakes it will not distroy your wheel or case. - $$$ if it brakes
Chain = cheap
:cheers:
cafeboy
so belt is the way to go eh? :dunno_white:
I like belts and if it brakes there is very little chance of the rear wheel locking up like a chain will.
I am looking in to a belt drive swap for my VLX.
cafeboy
any noticeable power/torque differences between the 3? assuming all other things are equal on the bikes of course.
But shaft drive instant power with no laging
cafeboy
To me belts are very smooth and are more for cruising not ripping on.
cafeboy
QuoteTo me belts are very smooth and are more for cruising not ripping on.
Buell has pretty good luck with them... although I believe the 1125 is chain driven. As I recall, shaft drive is the least efficient (frictional losses + added weight?). The claims are all over the map as far as belt vs roller chain. Belts are quiet too. With the engine sprocket minimum diameter and the width, it can be difficult, if not impossible, to convert a chain driven bike to belt.
Quote from: gearman on October 18, 2008, 03:12:29 PM
With the engine sprocket minimum diameter and the width, it can be difficult, if not impossible, to convert a chain driven bike to belt.
Well here is the kit.
http://www.scootworks.com/shop.cgi/page=partsh.htm/SID=1219417411.652
cafeboy
Quote from: cafeboy on October 18, 2008, 03:38:18 PM
Quote from: gearman on October 18, 2008, 03:12:29 PM
With the engine sprocket minimum diameter and the width, it can be difficult, if not impossible, to convert a chain driven bike to belt.
Well here is the kit.
http://www.scootworks.com/shop.cgi/page=partsh.htm/SID=1219417411.652
cafeboy
i don't see gs500 listed, it's prolly right next to the EFI kit though ;)
Quote from: cafeboy on October 18, 2008, 03:38:18 PM
Well here is the kit.
Seems a little pricey, but if you save a couple of chain/sprocket replacements over the life of the bike, not that bad.
Quote from: ohgood on October 18, 2008, 03:46:40 PM
Quote from: cafeboy on October 18, 2008, 03:38:18 PM
Quote from: gearman on October 18, 2008, 03:12:29 PM
With the engine sprocket minimum diameter and the width, it can be difficult, if not impossible, to convert a chain driven bike to belt.
Well here is the kit.
http://www.scootworks.com/shop.cgi/page=partsh.htm/SID=1219417411.652
cafeboy
i don't see gs500 listed, it's prolly right next to the EFI kit though ;)
That kit is for my VLX.
cafeboy
i'll never own another chain bike again - too much of a PITA
shaft is great - but some of them have nasty lash in them (like my c50 did)
belt is best - all the advantages of both the chain and the shaft, and they look awesome
moto gp and all racing bikes use chain....so what does that tell you?
It gets a little more confusing when you go deeper into each catagory. Different styles of links on chains, different materials that the belts are made from, different bearings and shaZam! for the shaft. Each with variables. Have fun. I always liked the look of a belt, but I trust a chain more for some reason. I have no clue why.
go ahead, confuse me.. :laugh:
Quote from: frankieG on October 19, 2008, 04:30:52 PM
moto gp and all racing bikes use chain....so what does that tell you?
that they are willing to do a lot more maintenance then i am ;)
Quote from: jserio on October 18, 2008, 02:19:11 PM
so belt is the way to go eh? :dunno_white:
pretty much 'cept gearing down one, is not economically feasible
The most efficient transmission of power to the rear wheel is accomplished with a chain, belts have a little more stretch to them and thus absorb a bit more of the energy to the rear wheel and have a synergistic effect. You get a slightly different power transmisson feel when you go to pull a wheelie on a belt driven bike theres a split second delay. The least efficient method of power transmission is via shaft drive. To much energy loss through the various componenets.
Thats's why sportbikes use a chain, low weight and least amount of transmitted power loss to the rear wheel.
Its Belt all the way for bikes with the power (or lack there of) of the GS. Belt is almost as cheap as chain for mass manufacture and it will last the life time. Too bad, the manufacturers dont like anything lasting very long.
Of course harley and buell are the worst bikes for belt, the high torque and the overall weight these things are hauling make it ideal to not run belt. or belt has to be wide ... very very wide. Buell guys constantly replace their belts ... There are some I know who are on their 2nd or 3rd "life time belt".
Basically small bike+low power = belt. Larger bikes will need chain or shaft.
Cool.
Buddha.
i ask because the vulcan 900 sports a belt drive. the folks at the dealership are raving about this. ( i know, they just want my money and want me to buy a bike) they claim with the belt drive and fuel injection that the motor has a much smoother power delivery then the competition. i want to make an informed choice, not an impulse buy. but i'm really digging this vulcan. :icon_mrgreen:
Yes they do want your $$$ ...
Smooth and belt drive have nothing to do with each other ... sorta like V twin means torque BS which I am sure they spouted too ... V does not do nothing for torque.
Anyway, a shaft or a chain can be just as smooth, its in the motor and else where that its smooth.
The 750 vulcan had shaft drive. The 800 vulcan was introduced with chain drive and then the people were complaining about chain on it. Then a company called scootworks in zebulon NC (near raleigh) started making conversion kits for them. They had an 800 vulcan, running a 36mm wide gates poly chain, and they even ran a 21mm 14mm pitch gates polychain on it. (gates polychain is a trademark name for gates's belt).
After the fiasco ... turning a shaftie into chain was total crap, they decided that they better change direction again and went with belt.
BTW the big yamaha with belt literally turned the whole jap bike industry on its ear. The vulcan belt is great, but they are saving face after the chain disaster.
The 800 can be swapped with belt too. scootworks.com will be your best bet. Buy that 800 and swap it, or buy a marauder and fit it, or 750 shadow ... If you must have belt. I love belt BTW.
I dunno, I am not for buying new ... too much BS surrounding it. Sales clowns who have no clue and BS you ... I dunno I require a minimum level of intelligence before you rob me. They say its smooth because of belt drive or that its torquey because its a V, that instant, I will be leaving the store. Its easy to spot the clueless for sale by owner and buy one.
Cool.
Buddha.
i didn't get the impression this lady was an idiot. i could have misunderstood what she was saying about the belt. i do know that in the same convo she told me that the fuel injection would make for a smoother throttle response and a more even power delivery. she said it's got enough power to satisfy me as a i grow into it and want to ride two up but it doesn't have so much power that a slight twist will slam me to the ground.
Quote from: frankieG on October 19, 2008, 04:30:52 PM
moto gp and all racing bikes use chain....so what does that tell you?
easy, belts have a HP torque limit on them. tis why the superbikes, and teh BUILT vtwins will be sporting chain drives ive built a 200+ hp twin, ( yes hd, and no id dont, and still dont leak oil) and belts would not last. owner went to chain :thumb:
Quote from: jserio on October 20, 2008, 12:13:50 PM
i ask because the vulcan 900 sports a belt drive. the folks at the dealership are raving about this. ( i know, they just want my money and want me to buy a bike) they claim with the belt drive and fuel injection that the motor has a much smoother power delivery then the competition. i want to make an informed choice, not an impulse buy. but i'm really digging this vulcan. :icon_mrgreen:
Buy a Shadow.
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on October 20, 2008, 07:04:44 PM
Quote from: frankieG on October 19, 2008, 04:30:52 PM
moto gp and all racing bikes use chain....so what does that tell you?
easy, belts have a HP torque limit on them. tis why the superbikes, and teh BUILT vtwins will be sporting chain drives ive built a 200+ hp twin, ( yes hd, and no id dont, and still dont leak oil) and belts would not last. owner went to chain :thumb:
Yamahon: You want to run a belt drive on a 200HP HD that leaks oil ... easy, it just has to be 4 inches wide. And you have to cover it up so oil doesn't get inside the teeth.
There is no power limit on belts. More power = wider belt. A chain also can get over powered, however a chain will usually give up its life to cover for the power.
Betting python: MotoGP bikes do have chains, they also get a new chain everytime it walks on to the track. If you did run a belt on it ... it could be pretty wide, like 3-4 inch ... and you would never change it.
Once again dont buy moto corpo BS. They will say anything to obfuscate issues where they are on the losing side.
MotoGP bikes run chain cos a 3/4 inch wide chain running on sprokets that weigh 2 lbs can run the 50-60 miles each race is. Then they dont care, they'd toss it. A belt will have to be 3inch wide and its pulleys will weigh 8-10lbs.
200HP belts are available. I have personally seen 4-6 inch wide belts on harley primaries ... so no reason you cannot have 200hp via belt.
There is a very serious sensitivity issue I have guys ...
I almost let the big lies go without even recognizing it, and am bugged by the little lies. the smaller the lie, the quicker I latch on to it and harp ...
Anyway, the roadstar has a 1/5 inch belt ... and it literally turned the whole jap world upside down. Not that there wasn't that good belts available before ... just that the companies were not making them and tossing it on bikes.
GS can easily run a 21mm wide gates polychain 14mm pitch if you can stuff a 4.5 inch dia pulley in front. It will hit the clutch push rod ... get rid of that and you're home free.
The second best option is a 8mm pith 21mm wide gates poly chain. That can run on a 3.6 inch front pulley and it will work quite well.
I seriously plan on doing this to 1 of the GS'es. Atleast.
The belts are 1990's tech, chains are 1890's tech. Dont bash on harley when you're running a chain.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: bettingpython on October 21, 2008, 07:08:41 AM
Quote from: jserio on October 20, 2008, 12:13:50 PM
i ask because the vulcan 900 sports a belt drive. the folks at the dealership are raving about this. ( i know, they just want my money and want me to buy a bike) they claim with the belt drive and fuel injection that the motor has a much smoother power delivery then the competition. i want to make an informed choice, not an impulse buy. but i'm really digging this vulcan. :icon_mrgreen:
Buy a Shadow.
not fuel injected and costs more.
looked at another bike the other day that has a belt drive. the new yamaha v-star 950... i liked what i saw.... of course, this was under pretty showroom lights. :dunno_white:
Quote from: cafeboy on October 18, 2008, 02:10:47 PM
Shaft = never adjust or replace chain or sprokets - $$$$$$$ if it brakes
Belt = almost never replace and if it brakes it will not distroy your wheel or case. - $$$ if it brakes
Chain = cheap
:cheers:
cafeboy
yup. i like hte shafty , almost NO lag in delivery. its THERE. belts i like because of ease of install and relaticely LONG durability. chains i like cause there cheap. belts have a certain max power level. go above, and mr belt usually will say f%$k this im outta here.
Holeee ancient thread batman ...
But a GS belt drive swap is possible, someone wanna plonk down 4 benjamins, and do a small amount of machine work on their bike, I'd guarantee you a nice belt and pulley set will arrive at your door.
I would do this, but I dont have a GS that has a GS motor ... and am not looking to do Gr belt rive swap just yet.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: bettingpython on October 21, 2008, 07:08:41 AM
Quote from: jserio on October 20, 2008, 12:13:50 PM
i ask because the vulcan 900 sports a belt drive. the folks at the dealership are raving about this. ( i know, they just want my money and want me to buy a bike) they claim with the belt drive and fuel injection that the motor has a much smoother power delivery then the competition. i want to make an informed choice, not an impulse buy. but i'm really digging this vulcan. :icon_mrgreen:
Buy a Shadow.
Quote from: frankieG on October 19, 2008, 04:30:52 PM
moto gp and all racing bikes use chain....so what does that tell you?
common parts, easy to find, easy to change for different tracks, and i am sure they are replacing them pretty frequently anyway.
Quote from: 94suzuki500 on July 22, 2009, 01:16:58 PM
Quote from: frankieG on October 19, 2008, 04:30:52 PM
moto gp and all racing bikes use chain....so what does that tell you?
common parts, easy to find, easy to change for different tracks, and i am sure they are replacing them pretty frequently anyway.
And they have a limitless budget.
BTW, I'd like to hand around their dumpster as they finish up ... easily score 100K worth of tars, spark plugs, chains and sprokets, brakes etc etc ...
Cool.
Buddha.
I tried to score the AMA takeoffs at Laguna. Me and everyone else. :police: :cry: You should take Dovi's front tar from the Sachsenring last weekend. :flipoff:
Chains have the least drive loss and the most customizability. Essential for MotoGP - not essential for me, but handy.
If horsepower is not a priority, a belt.....no doubt about it ! :thumb:
I had a few Harleys with belts and they are virtually maintenance free
for 1000's and 1000's of miles. They make repair kits on the 1 inna million
chance something penetrates one, which Ive never, ever seen.....
Sometimes I sprayed some PAM on them if the sqeaked after a rain storm
or riding through salty, melted snow water, but it wasnt necessary for upkeep.
Chains are heavy, sloppy, throw oil everywhere and if they break will tear your bike up.
the two most recent bikes i've looked at have both been belt drive. (both are cruisers, one kawi, the other yama) both bikes are FI and they both are comfy to sit on in the showroom. (although i'm giving the edge in that department to the yama, because the seat is a tad wider)
oh, if you're wondering, the bikes are: Kawasaki Vulcan 900 and Yamaha V-star 950. :dunno_white:
So, Buddah: Why wouldn't the circlip work on a 21mm sprocket? I don't think there is that much axial force on it.
i think i posted here, but too lazy to chcek...
so:
belt = #1 cause it's cheap as heck to replace, quiet, and du-huh easy to see if it's about to fail
shaft = #2 cause all that stuff above, minus the cheap part $$$$$$$$$
chain = #3, 4, 5, 6, and infinity, cause any idiot can put it on, use it 20% past it's end of life, and still not die.
Quote from: Paulcet on July 22, 2009, 06:53:22 PM
So, Buddah: Why wouldn't the circlip work on a 21mm sprocket? I don't think there is that much axial force on it.
Oh several reasons, the thing has to be tight on the shaft, and the pulley is usually wider than the 520 sproket, you can machine that down ... but heck might as well machine the countershaft and thread it.
Also the chain center line is bound to fall outside of the clip, and it can come loose ... on my 89 it did before I got it, was boogered up in the groove, I think from a chain break incident.
Cool.
Buddha.
so, for longevity, i'm better with a belt drive......
and for power i'm better with a chain drive...
and shaft....is in between?
Quote from: The Buddha on July 22, 2009, 07:33:37 PM
Quote from: Paulcet on July 22, 2009, 06:53:22 PM
So, Buddah: Why wouldn't the circlip work on a 21mm sprocket? I don't think there is that much axial force on it.
Oh several reasons, the thing has to be tight on the shaft, and the pulley is usually wider than the 520 sproket, you can machine that down ... but heck might as well machine the countershaft and thread it.
Also the chain center line is bound to fall outside of the clip, and it can come loose ... on my 89 it did before I got it, was boogered up in the groove, I think from a chain break incident.
Cool.
Buddha.
harl;eys leaking oil lol, , i call BS on that. unless its been abused. , would be like me bashin a gs for having the potential of having goats/starwalts, yes ive ridden an HD wiht a 4" open primary. i was referring to the drive belt, not hte primary
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on July 22, 2009, 08:09:59 PM
harl;eys leaking oil lol, , i call BS on that. unless its been abused. , would be like me bashin a gs for having the potential of having goats/starwalts, yes ive ridden an HD wiht a 4" open primary. i was referring to the drive belt, not hte primary
[/quote]
Gotta agree wit Yamahonzooki,
The Harleys Ive had were abused by average , Ruff Tuff HD dood standards and they NEVER leaked
or left me stranded. I rode the Hell out of them in all weather and conditions. No garage queens, here.
I think the real 'leaky Harley' stuff died in the early 80's on the big bikes, a littlelater on the Sporty's.
Its hard to convince a non-Harley rider how great the bikes are cuz all they can focus on are the goofy,
part time wannabe 1%'ers who stand out in the crowd. Real HD guys are the nicest people you'll ever
meet and the bikes they maintain stopped leaking in the 80's. :thumb:
Peace out, its ALL good ! :icon_mrgreen:
only seriousl complaints i had about the 1200 sportie i demoed: needs better/bigger readout, and it seemed a bit "light" in a headwind(wanted to drift about alot when the wind was at my face) of course, these could just be problems in my newbie mind and not real problems at all. :dunno_white:
Yep, It's was just you :cookoo:
Quote from: jserio on July 22, 2009, 07:39:07 PM
so, for longevity, i'm better with a belt drive......
and for power i'm better with a chain drive...
and shaft....is in between?
that doesn't seem right. should be longevity = shaft, chain, belt.
course, if you pour sand on all three while they're running, it'd be interesting to see which one lasts longest. i'd bet on the self-clearing chain. note, that's 'clearing', not 'cleaning'. :)
sand does a really nice job of speeding up the normal wearing process. and it's cheap. now, whose bike will be the pig ?
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on July 22, 2009, 08:09:59 PM
Quote from: The Buddha on July 22, 2009, 07:33:37 PM
Quote from: Paulcet on July 22, 2009, 06:53:22 PM
So, Buddah: Why wouldn't the circlip work on a 21mm sprocket? I don't think there is that much axial force on it.
Oh several reasons, the thing has to be tight on the shaft, and the pulley is usually wider than the 520 sproket, you can machine that down ... but heck might as well machine the countershaft and thread it.
Also the chain center line is bound to fall outside of the clip, and it can come loose ... on my 89 it did before I got it, was boogered up in the groove, I think from a chain break incident.
Cool.
Buddha.
harl;eys leaking oil lol, , i call BS on that. unless its been abused. , would be like me bashin a gs for having the potential of having goats/starwalts, yes ive ridden an HD wiht a 4" open primary. i was referring to the drive belt, not hte primary
I didn't say harleys leaked oil in this post ... why quote me and say somethign entirely dfferent.
The front sproket cannot rock on the shaft is what I said for belt drive. The GS one does that, none of the others, chain or belt do that.
And yes harley owners are the nicest people you'd ever meet. the lot of them, Doctors, accountants, salesmen, executives ... the only ones you have to watch out for are the lawyers. Nicest I tell ya ... the nicest and the best ... One of them did my taxes, and found another 500 bucks in refunds. The best.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: The Buddha on July 23, 2009, 08:23:41 AMAnd yes harley owners are the nicest people you'd ever meet. the lot of them, Doctors, accountants, salesmen, executives ... the only ones you have to watch out for are the lawyers. Nicest I tell ya ... the nicest and the best ... One of them did my taxes, and found another 500 bucks in refunds. The best.
(http://i28.tinypic.com/302x9o7.jpg)
Yea, I have this eye doctor friend (who is starting out in career/life so he is poor, why else is he my friend right) who bought a vulcan 500, and he's eyeing a moto guzzi as a way to out harley the harley crowd. Atleast the damn thing is 4K not 15K.
Seriously, HD guys are so mechanically clueless of late. They have no idea how to save their motors, forget even instinct, you tell them, they still suck. back in the day the riders knew their bikes, any and all of it, it was tore and built by them. No wonder they are the nicest guys, they never do anything that is remotely hard ... so they can sip their tea (no never mind, its latte's @ starbucks now) and complain about their misfire, and they will put in the hands on work after work, where they will personally oload their bikes into their pickup truck and take it themselves to the dealer (as opposed to having someone do it for them). They are very hands on. ;) ...
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: The Buddha on July 23, 2009, 10:37:22 AM
Yea, I have this eye doctor friend (who is starting out in career/life so he is poor, why else is he my friend right) who bought a vulcan 500, and he's eyeing a moto guzzi as a way to out harley the harley crowd. Atleast the damn thing is 4K not 15K.
Seriously, HD guys are so mechanically clueless of late. They have no idea how to save their motors, forget even instinct, you tell them, they still suck. back in the day the riders knew their bikes, any and all of it, it was tore and built by them. No wonder they are the nicest guys, they never do anything that is remotely hard ... so they can sip their tea (no never mind, its latte's @ starbucks now) and complain about their misfire, and they will put in the hands on work after work, where they will personally oload their bikes into their pickup truck and take it themselves to the dealer (as opposed to having someone do it for them). They are very hands on. ;) ...
Cool.
Buddha.
Harley's a whole different entity now than it was a few decades ago.
The same stuff you mention could be said about cars, too.
When I was growing up in the 60's and 70's, everybody worked on their own car.
Your Dad alloted an hour or so every saturday morning to maintaining it. Teenagers
worked a summer and bought an old Nova and put mags and Cherry Bombs on it.
Who works on their stuff now ? So, its not just Harleys, its all mechanical stuff in general.
I think a lot of todays riders arent getting their skills by skipping dirt bikes and small bikes
and going right to 600's. Most of the ones I see, and was in the club with, just cant ride. Period.
But, Oh well.....The 20 and 30 yr olds who are on this board today will be saying the same stuff about the
next gen 20 years from now :icon_mrgreen:
I know a few that can ride, but tell them, the fan isn;t running on this, so it over heats in traffic, you need to get it home without cooking it. That brings a blank look to their face, followed usually by a roasted motor.
They cant even do the simplest thing, and of course forget working on it.
Cool.
Buddha.