OK so the thing is prolly Dead on the senate floor ... so ... should it live or die ...
I think it needs to die ... the companies should do a chapter 11 and return with some products we actually want to buy and I hope one of them is a freaking inexpensive hybrid, run it, fix it yourself, get back on the road motorcycle, as well as a similar car. I am sick and tired of Idiot companies design crap that's really really impractical, and ugly ... and throw it at the public, who fuelled by the desire to spend their recent wealth buy the crap and then slap spinners on the thing ... you're freaking busa isn't any less ugly or more useful with the spinners on peckerhead ...
BTW another recent stupid ass ugly freaking idea I see often ... weird shaped naked bike headlights ... have they learnt nothing from the valkyrie rune's spectacular failure when credit was indeed looser than Brittney Spears at a free cocaine event ...
If the headlights are not stuffed in a fairing ... listen up moron's who draw motorcycles ... the shape is round. A distant second is rectangle AKA square ... we dont need triangle ... skull shaped. tear drop shaped ... inverted tear drop shaped ... or the god awful ... potato shape on the gladius.
Anyway, back to the rant at hand ... let them die, and they can come back with a product that can make us buy. Or let them die, and they can make busses or trains.
However ... the 350 of the 700 billion we have thrown at the banks has been completely wasted ... I'd atleast pass the rest of the 350 billion to these 3 in a proper structured way and make them restructure and make them research and put in tax breaks for fuel efficiency etc etc ... because AIG, and citibank, and the rest of the banks are paying themselves with our money.
Its high time we got a decent useable motorcycle out of detriot. And I dont want no over blown over hyped harley/goldwing bastard child either. Fuel efficient, fix at home types.
Cool.
Buddha.
I'm ok with loaning the automakers a limited amount of operating capital in return for some oversite to assure they get on the right path. I would hope the workers/retired workers understand the serious nature of their employers problems and prompt the UAW to act accordingly. Filing any form of bankruptcy could be the kiss of death for an otherwise viable business.
I understand its a ton of jobs people would loose, but i cant help but think about other things we could do with 14 billion dollars rather than loan it to corporations. How about scratching the surface with public healthcare, homeless food and shelters, rehab programs, environmental projects,...
Besides, the loan is less than half of what the auto industry thinks it needs to be saved.
die. I hope it dies. I hope GM, Ford, and Chrysler all die. Maybe their reincarnations will be properly run.
Nay, and while we're at it let's make all those banks pay back their cut of that bail out.......with interest. We are not a communosocialist state and have no business mixing the federal government into private business.
Die. Even if the bailout passes, it will not keep them afloat long enough for a return to profitability.
They couldn't give them enough money for the companies to return to profitability...because they're not changing. It's sad when the politicians even say as much. The big 3 are asking for money to keep doing exactly what they're doing.
Quote from: The Buddha on December 11, 2008, 02:49:53 PM
1) Anyway, back to the rant at hand ... let them die, and they can come back with a product that can make us buy. Or let them die, and they can make busses or trains.
2) Its high time we got a decent useable motorcycle out of detriot. And I dont want no over blown over hyped harley/goldwing bastard child either. Fuel efficient, fix at home types.
Cool.
Buddha.
1) ya man ya
2) there i no way i'd ride a two wheeled death machine manufactured to GM's quality/assembly guidelines. none. zilch. nada.
i see no need in a structured bailout of any kind for failing companies. the products are shaZam!, the quality similar, reliability also. sure, market it with OMG PONIES ! pearl paint and chrome wheels- i'm still not buying.
(my opinion doesn't matter to detroit, or toyota/honda/kia anyway, because i'll never buy a 'new' car. )
Quote from: makenzie71 on December 11, 2008, 05:08:52 PM
die. I hope it dies. I hope GM, Ford, and Chrysler all die. Maybe their reincarnations will be properly run.
Be careful what you ask for...you may get it. These foreign companies that are kicking our industries @sses receive or have received substantial support from
their governments. Any reincarnation will likely be under Asian or Arab ownership. Like it or not, our 'superpower' status cannot be sustained without significant US owned manufacturing capacity. Contrary to popular belief, shuffling paper and flipping burgers does not count as manufacturing.
Not concerned...foreign manufacturers aren't doing too much better than we are in the States. Why do you think our foreign-owned manufacturing plants are shutting down? We're not buying as many new cars as it takes for them to be able to afford to pay their workers $50+ and hour.
I'd be willing to bet that when the reincarnations come up they will be US-bound and we'll see either higher quality stuff for the price we pay or a price the match our current quality.
Die and live, BUT only if UAW goes bye bye. i hold them responsible for this, as well as building crap that not many want. reliability as of recent times hasnt been an issue, any mroe than anybody ewlse, BUT bennies and all the UAW workers are paid 3 times as much as tehir counterparts at honda toyota and nissan
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on December 12, 2008, 02:20:19 AM
only if UAW goes bye bye.
+1 I blame them for all this crap. Why should the guy that puts on hub caps make as much as the guy that puts in the motor.
It is all union crap.
I love my Chevy but I have had to fix alot of things to make it a great truck.
I think if the union goes away the quality would go up cause folks would have to work and take responsibility for there work.
imho :dunno_white:
When toyota and honda and whoever else opened up manufacturing plants here, why didn't we get them to join the same UAW that the detroit 3 have to deal with.
Further, cars are so freaking dead. Yea payload = 160 lbs, tare weight = 5000 lbs. Screw that, flawed in a 1000 ways.
Heck a motorcycle is still 160 lb payload and 500 lb tare wt. But better than 5000 lbs. I really think its time for a smart, green, well made, economical, fix it yourself motorcycle.
A 1963 VW of bikes. Couple that with decent weather gear, and I dont see why a 100+ mpg bike that costs 4K is not realistic.
Yea a dead detroit will be needed to get this done. Even so honda may beat them at it too ... however, forget any honda being "fix it yourself".
Cool.
Buddha.
Let them die through bankruptcy reorganization. All the American automakers had or still have stakes in foreign auto companies. They could just use a working business model from resources they already had.
- Porkchop
That will result in worse crap, designed even more thoughtlessly and overpriced cos the competetion is gone and it will be even more tackily made, and they will react with the seasoned attitude of ... "if you dont like it ... dont buy it ... walking sounds good right ? " .
Congress for years gave them assured profits for making Trucks, which promptly let them to slap everythign from minivan bodies on F250's to fitting car bodies on F150's and referring to them as trucks. I think congress has to push them to where they need to go. They need sensible vehicles that will last for several decades and use less gas. I dont see how a motorcycle types will not fit that bill if its designed right. Of course a small car can also do the job with some more dead weight to cart around.
R&D is vital. The cars in the pipeline can be shelved for later. Oil shock brought us some decent motorcycles. GS serises suzuki, KZ kawi's, etc etc. cant see why we cant go back that way and add in fuel efficient flex fuel hybrid you can fix yourself ... heck all 3 can make the same thing. Ford, GM, Chrysler motorcycles, all of which use the same everything.
Cool.
Buddha.
the only reason the bailout of the big 3 will die on senate floor is because they(our elected officials) have no stake in them. none. they had/have stake in the banking industry. that's the only reason we contine to just let them blow that 700 billion dollars. they've spent 350 billion allready...and what do we have to show for it? nothing. absoluetyly nothing. so, we're a "fair" country right? what the hell, let's bail out the big 3 too...why not right? we can print up more paper. f%$k it all..... :cookoo: :cookoo: :cookoo: :cookoo:
so much for capitalism
hmm..i just read that the bill would have passed except that legislaturs asked UAW to take a lower benefits/wage package and they said no. the proposed package would have been more in line with other manufacturers such as honda, toyota and nissan. :cookoo: :cookoo:
That's why they're going to die, jserio. More money without justification.
Srinath, actually the last thing the auto makers need are cars that'll last decades. One of the biggest problems we have is that we don't buy enough new shaZam!. If we don't buy new cars, someone doesn't make them.
but they need to last a resonable amount of time. i can't afford a new car every year.
That's the issue I have. Ideally, a person would buy a new car every 5 years. The problem with that is quality and cost. From the get-go I've been bitching because the guys up top are letting the guys on the bottom call the shots. Those little guys want more money for the same work or they won't work. The guy up top doesn't want to hear them whine so he gives them more money. Is the big man going to take a hit in his pocket book, though? Hell no. He'll just skimp on materials and quality control and charge 10% more for the product.
It's shaZam! like this that's made it so that you can't own a Pontiac Bonneville made in the last 10 years that doesn't have a faulty intermittent steering case...or a Focus that doesn't have the sealer in the gas tank peeling off because it dissolves in, of all things, gasoline...and so on.
I wouldn't have a problem with that stuff it it weren't for the fact that buying a new Bonneville means $30,000. You an buy a fully loaded Maxima for around the same as a Bonneville and have a car that will last at least 5 years before shaZam! starts falling off it. I don't mind buying crappy cars so long as I get what I pay for.
The American consumer buys large and/or inefficient vehicles by the millions. Whose fault is it? The manufacturers obviously! They hired armed thugs to force people into buying these vehicles when all they wanted was a stripper econo-box. Yep, we're all victims...plain and simple. Now's our chance to exact revenge on those scoundrels!
Umm the auto makers are going broke because people ARE NOT buying their cars. Have you been a part of this conversation?
Quote from: makenzie71 on December 12, 2008, 07:56:35 PM
Umm the auto makers are going broke because people ARE NOT buying their cars. Have you been a part of this conversation?
My sarcasm was directed toward those who claim that the US automakers woes are due to offering vehicles "we" don't want. Lots of folks want them, they're just not in a good financial position to buy them. After being slammed to the mat by the oil speculators, people expected the automakers to throw a switch and miraculously start producing vehicles we "want". Q: exactly what is it we want? A: we want it all, we want it to last forever, we want it cheap, and we want it NOW. My guess is that we will soon find out how well the Chinese can do at satisfying those "wants".
We have to bail out the big 3, or well just GM. I mean if they fail what will all the thugs and drug dealers drive ?
They gots to have da caddi.
Kinda interesting about the thugs and caddies analogy. I heard somewhere that although the Cadillacs were on par in quality with other luxury vehicles that GM could not get them financed for their notoriaty. I guess the thought was these vehicles will either get stolen, choped, or be a complete loss in many instances. So, it wasn't the quality of the vehicle it was who is wanting the vehicle.
I dunno sounds plausible. But, I guess Civics and such would be the same way with the getting stolen bit.
Oh well I think if they do get any money the union has gotta go. They make $28 bucks an hour to put on nuts and bolt. I got $10 an hour to be an EMT. Which requires more skill?
Mary
Quote from: Toogoofy317 on December 14, 2008, 04:20:52 AMOh well I think if they do get any money the union has gotta go. They make $28 bucks an hour to put on nuts and bolt. I got $10 an hour to be an EMT. Which requires more skill? Mary
Fixing them requires more skill, I wish to GAWD I had 100% health insurance and a FAT pension to retire on AND made $28 an hour. :mad: I may lose my job, but the big three need some humble pie here, bankruptcy, then reorganize WITHOUT the bloated UAW pigs puling the strings.. This vid i found interesting also.....http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189 (http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189)
Quote from: Toogoofy317 on December 14, 2008, 04:20:52 AMThey make $28 bucks an hour to put on nuts and bolt.
And that's the low end of the scale....
$28 or $100 an hour its the american way... Just like "non-proffit" agency leaders that make over 500K a year. :dunno_white:
I think the bailout is BS. If our minimum wage in PA is $7.15 an hour and there are union Jobs paying 10X that.... How is that fair? It hurts small business and it hurts the economy.
The average UAW worker, when you take their entire employment package in mind, makes well over $70/hour. For installing an engine, laying paint, or turning bolts. This isn't "Service". It's "put part A on part B". It requires very little skill. This is why GM, Ford, and Chrysler is going to fail.
I just hope the union's claws aren't sunk far enough into the government that they can't be extracted to free the car companies to be more economically viable. The unemployment would be just as catastophic I imagine.
If the big three crashed unemployment WOULD be tremendous...we're looking at whole cities in some areas...but it wouldn't last. Also, I think we'd have to see something of the likes of it to be motivated enough to do something about it.
Think about how many people Buddha Loves You about the government and it's practices. Then think about how many of those people are doing ANYTHING about it? Maybe the big three crashing would be big enough to move us.
maybe the big 3 crashing is the only way to effectively crush the union. and at the same time send a message to other unions, we will not be bullied. don't want to be a team player? want to be all selfish and only worry about your paycheck? fine, you won't have a job...we'll go bankrupt and then re-organize and hire non-union workers. 8)
Quote from: jserio on December 14, 2008, 05:42:41 PM
maybe the big 3 crashing is the only way to effectively crush the union. and at the same time send a message to other unions, we will not be bullied. don't want to be a team player? want to be all selfish and only worry about your paycheck? fine, you won't have a job...we'll go bankrupt and then re-organize and hire non-union workers. 8)
:whisper: :thumb:
Unions are what Sent Levis Jeans overseas.A real Shame too.Put most of this county out of work several years Ago.The quality went in the Hole.Used to I could get a little over a year from a Pair of Jeans.Last pair I bought I think I got 4 Months. :icon_rolleyes:
Gee, what a surprise, Bush gave the big three their $ :icon_rolleyes: :2guns: :whisper: :technical: :technical: :technical: :technical:
Yea there is the "not on my watch" mentality ... anything we can do to postpone the problem into the next guy's term. The next guy will do anything he can to get himself a second term, then at the end of that second term he will do anything he can to secure his legacy and put the problem into the lap of the next guy. McCain would have been better, he'd most likely have dropped dead after the first term ... however that aint no definite thing, look at duck Cheney ... 12 heart attacks, 11 strokes, 6 quadruple bypasses and he's still at the top of it all, directing people and making sure its one rule for the have nots and his opponents and one rule for him and his buddies. That takes committment. better yet, he's not even going to have to worry about his legacy. He was only president in truth, not president in name and title.
Cool.
Buddha.
wost president ever!!!!!!
Go back to sleep Frank.
hes still got his obama erection, see bush is getting blame for clintons failures, and obama will get blame for bush's. tis the way teh thing works lol
I'm really divided on this issue. living here in ohio there are a lot of auto ties around here. the big 3 dropping dead in the water would crush the local economy. i'm sure there are others on here that would agree with me. a very difficult decision/situation. i'm glad i don't have to be the one to make it.
The idea that "click and clack" - the automotive trouble shooting chuckle heads of NPR came up with today was cool ... I'd like to add a small twist to it though ...
There has to be a big gas tax, something like an additional 50 cents. Then that extra $ is to be used to build rail lines, rail cars and what not. GM, ford and chrystler should do that building.
To that I'd add, renewable fuel cars and motorcycles that are cheap to run, maintain and are useable in all weather conditions - a heated suit with electrical supply from the bike is fine IMHO.
Only problem is ... 90% of fuel is used in short distances and commutes ... what good will trains do from washington to charlotte in 2 hours ... when the 12 miles from my house to charlotte is what will kill the fuel supply. There is busses and trains for that too, but that is not a problem that needs detroit to do anything. More trips for these busses, OK a stroke of the pen. Done.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on December 20, 2008, 02:19:06 AM
hes still got his obama erection, see bush is getting blame for clintons failures, and obama will get blame for bush's. tis the way teh thing works lol
that could very well turn out to be true except i don't remember anyone complaining about clinton when bush was in. bush has his own level of black hole he has sucked America into
Quote from: frankieG on December 22, 2008, 12:33:34 AM
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on December 20, 2008, 02:19:06 AM
hes still got his obama erection, see bush is getting blame for clintons failures, and obama will get blame for bush's. tis the way teh thing works lol
that could very well turn out to be true except i don't remember anyone complaining about clinton when bush was in. bush has his own level of black hole he has sucked America into
i could blame that on teh liberal media. but that aside, the meltdown started with carter, was doubled by clinton , BUT no president sicne carter did anythign to stop what is now happeningcarter forward is to blame on that, including clinton both bushes reagan etc, and soon, obama if he does nothgin on that. IE if same policies are left in place
lord thundering Christ you need a monastery full of monks to make sense out of that idiocy you just spouted.
1977 carter community reinvestment act ( google it ) reagan did nothing. carter and reagan to blame along with each incoming pres frankie. then comes clinton read what he did. google shall work he doubles it. then comes bush then etc etc etc no one curtails it it balloons inot htis mess we are now in. not just bush alone. everyone from carter forward unless you are close minded frankie. if you are then dont obther. read teh history of the community reinvestment act. the date of its happening its history, it coincides with teh housing market issue which coincides with the auto issue . everythign at this point is hopelessly intertwined . hell a third grader could figure that out. frankie you are supposedly college educated. i figured youd see it. maybe i was wrong :icon_rolleyes: :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol: . look it all up youll see . now lets have a beer. :cheers: im in a good mood, btw if youre coming south on 75 then drinks are still on me. if youre coming on 95 then sorry i cannot make it. well catch up at another time then. and an e-beer will have to suffice. take care friend and have a safe trip :thumb: