GStwin.com GS500 Message Forum

Ok Guys,
as I told in a previous message, I bought this bike, a GS500F MY2005, for my girlfriend who have to learn to drive, since my TL1000S is definitively NOT good for a newbie (let's say it's deadly!).
I payed only 400€ (540US$) because, beside it's good exterior status, it has some big problem in the engine. It could be melted, or some other major issue at crankcase level.

So, in this thread I'll show how the works on it are proceeding.

1st of all, the bike as it looks like after a proper wash (it stayed outside, stopped, from last July, and in Milan the air is not "properly clean"  ;)). The plastic tail, seat and battery was just removed, since I had to remove the Spyball alarm.
(http://images6.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-6//191/191421/339399/img_3540-vi.jpg?1229439309)


This is a detail on the alarm connections and cables cut by the mechanic ( :2guns:) who installed this alarm:
(http://images2.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-2//191/191421/339399/img_3546-vi.jpg?1229439309)


Here, after fairings, airbox, exhaust pipe and carbs removing, and after disconnection of all pipes and engine bolts and screws, the engine is ready to be removed (and my mother, behind, to help me dealing with this heavy engine!):
(http://images4.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-4//191/191421/339399/img_3549-vi.jpg?1229439309)
(http://images2.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-2//191/191421/339399/img_3550-vi.jpg?1229439309)

The engine is out, and now sleep on my working table, waiting a deep external wash with some petrol (NEVER open an engine if it's dirty!!):
(http://images6.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-6//191/191421/339399/img_3552-vi.jpg?1229439309)
(http://images6.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-6//191/191421/339399/img_3553-vi.jpg?1229439309)
(http://images1.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-1//191/191421/339399/img_3556-vi.jpg?1229439309)


Stay tuned (but don't be in hurry: I'll proceed slowly) :)

Alex - Italy

As I told you, NEVER work on a dirty engine   :nono:

So now it's quite better  :thumb: (it took me 3 hours to deeply clean it):
(http://images4.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-4//191/191421/339399/img_3557-vi.jpg?1229439309)
(http://images3.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-3//191/191421/339399/img_3560-vi.jpg?1229439309)
(http://images1.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-1//191/191421/339399/img_3559-vi.jpg?1229439309)
(http://images3.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-3//191/191421/339399/img_3561-vi.jpg?1229439309)

ya i need to clean mine bad i just droped it out the bike

Talk about a hackjob on that wiring!

Hope you can restore your bike to it's original glory.

Keep us updated.  :cheers:

While you've got the motor out, why dont ya replace those exhaust bolts with some studs in the head and put some nuts on the outside instead of a bolt that can and usually does break off in the cylinder heads? 

once you clean these motors up, they dont really look half bad at all honestly.   good luck on the fixing it thing.

Quote from: bobthebiker on December 16, 2008, 12:09:58 AM
While you've got the motor out, why dont ya replace those exhaust bolts with some studs in the head and put some nuts on the outside instead of a bolt that can and usually does break off in the cylinder heads? 

Well, it could be an idea, but usually the steel these screws are made of, is special one to resist to high temperatures. And to avoid excessive friction some copper paste is enough :-)
I'll also pass again the screws with a threader, in order to put the thread in a perfect condition :-)

Bye, Alex

Special steel that melts and rusts in spite of the heat. Yes. I have found better hardware lying under a bullock cart.
Cool.
Buddha.

Ok, another evening to pass, other stuff to do  ;)

I started to open the engine.
Here without head cover, after I removed the 2 camshafts. The head seems ok. I've only to change a calibrated pad (the one on the low/left):
(http://images6.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-6//191/191421/339399/img_3562_1-or.jpg)

Uhm... A cam is not so good  >:(. It's the intake camshaft, and on both cam edges the surfaces are not so perfect... I think I'll not buy another camshaft: too expensive  :icon_neutral: and the problem is very very light:
(http://images2.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-2//191/191421/339399/img_3564_1-or.jpg)

I removed the head too, and it seems ok. Most probably I'll extract the valves in order to check them, but not now:
(http://images6.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-6//191/191421/339399/img_3570_1-or.jpg)
(http://images5.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-5//191/191421/339399/img_3573_1-or.jpg)

The cylinder block, in very good condition:
(http://images5.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-5//191/191421/339399/img_3571_1-or.jpg)
(http://images1.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-1//191/191421/339399/img_3575_1-or.jpg)

Engine, without head and cylinders:
(http://images2.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-2//191/191421/339399/img_3568_1-or.jpg)
(http://images4.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-4//191/191421/339399/img_3569_1-or.jpg)

The working place  :)
(http://images1.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-1//191/191421/339399/img_3576_1-or.jpg)

Stay tuned for the rest  :D

This is great! Thanks for the photo log. Keep us posted!   :cheers:

Very cool photos. I've looked at the diagrams of this stuff a bunch, but it is so much cooler to see an actual photo...

I love seeing the inner workings of the GS motors.  very fascinating, and very simple.   I'd like to get another just to mess around with and get a 4 valve/cyl head +cams built for it.

great write-up. can't wait for more. very nice pics

Ok, let's go on.

Today I dedicated the afternoon to the engine head and to the pistons.

The pistons: I deeply cleaned them, without using any abrasive on the side surface, only a razor blade for the hardest deposits (on the pistons top surface), an old toothbrush for the segments slots and a good amount of "magic liquid" (my precious WD-40 -> http://www.wd40.com/ (http://www.wd40.com/)). Then I measured them and they're perfectly in tolerance  :cheers:
(http://images2.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-2//191/191421/339399/img_3608_1-or.jpg)
(http://images3.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-3//191/191421/339399/img_3604_1-or.jpg)

The head: I've just cleaned the gasket surfaces previously, now let's give a look to the valves   O0

First of all, this morning I asked to my now-retired car mechanic the tool to compress valve springs:
(http://images5.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-5//191/191421/339399/img_3598_1-or.jpg)

Here a detail of compressed spring where I had just removed one of the two half cones (the terminal part of the valve is good, there's only some molybdenum grease on it because I took the photo when I was reassembling it):
(http://images2.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-2//191/191421/339399/img_3597_1-or.jpg)

A closed look on the valve seat:
(http://images2.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-2//191/191421/339399/img_3578_1-or.jpg)

This is one of the intake valves as it was when I extracted it (good amount of carbon deposit eh?  :D)
(http://images2.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-2//191/191421/339399/img_3600_1-or.jpg)


And the same valve after some clean and the treatment with carborundum coarse and fine paste and lapping tool -the grey bend on the large part of it -. It's very important to use the lapping kit if you remove the valves from the head, in order to assure they'll be hermetic once reinstalled:
(http://images5.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-5//191/191421/339399/img_3594_1-or.jpg)
It's good, isn't it?  :D

This is one of the exhaust valves with all its parts and half of the grinding/lapping toolkit:
(http://images5.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-5//191/191421/339399/img_3585_1-or.jpg)
(http://images4.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-4//191/191421/339399/img_3587_1-or.jpg)

And of course, while the valves were out of the head, I checked if they are bent... And they aren't  :bowdown:
(http://images4.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-4//191/191421/339399/img_3591_1-or.jpg)

Stay tuned :-)

 :woohoo:

looks like ur making some big progress

excellent pictures by the way!

Looking good so far.  Going by the book I see!

The "aseptically produced" valve grinding compound is interesting...   :)

Awesome.
Thank you for the extra time and effort for the pictures.

very nice write up.  that carbon deposit stuff is NOTHING.   I just cleaned a TON of crap off my Hurricane's head and valves, like so much crap its not even remotely funny.    if I'd had the proper valve tool, I would have removed the valves from the head and cleaned them thoroughly, then put everything back together.

you've got some access to a lot of high dollar and really nice stuff there, like that fancy runout gauge. 

your macros are nice man, keep it up !

how about some more pictures of that vise ? too ? nice one.

That valve spring compressor tool is a piece of art!  :icon_eek: 

Mine is just an old C-clamp with an adapter welded onto it. 

These photos are amazing.

Keep it up man! :thumb:
These pics are top quality stuff. We want more! :icon_mrgreen: :cheers:
And, nice bike too.

Ottimo lavoro e buon proseguimento ;)

Quote from: bobthebiker on December 20, 2008, 08:57:37 PM
You've got some access to a lot of high dollar and really nice stuff there, like that fancy runout gauge. 

Well, not really: after USSR crushed in 1991, a lot of guys from east republics like Poland came here in west Europe (Italy too) to sell a lot of their instruments. For example I paid that gauge about 15€ (about 20$), or a Polish micrometer 50-75mm (0,01mm scale) something like 25$ (and it's from the best instrumentation and guns company of Poland). And I can guarantee that Russian stuff is very very good, nothing to share, for example, with Chinese production  ;)
Plus: now the Uk£ is in parity with Eur, and I'm buying these tools from UK sellers through eBay: the last one is a Mitutoyo (most probably the best instrumentation brand in the world) 0 to 25mm (0.001mm scale) micrometer, and I had it for 30Eur (=41US$), expedition comprise  :thumb:

Bye, Alex :-)

I had somehow to pass this Sunday, so I went on with the job  ;)

This is the engine without clutch cover (previously I removed the ignition sensor):
(http://images3.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-3//191/191421/339399/img_3609_1-or.jpg)

The cogs are perfect:
(http://images6.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-6//191/191421/339399/img_3610_1-or.jpg)

Then, thanks to my air impact gun, I removed the clutch:
(http://images2.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-2//191/191421/339399/img_3614_1-or.jpg)

The clutch plates are very good too:
(http://images1.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-1//191/191421/339399/img_3613_1-or.jpg)

The clutch side without it and without oil pump and some other stuff related to the gears:
(http://images3.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-3//191/191421/339399/img_3612_1-or.jpg)

On the other side, I took away the power generator:
(http://images2.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-2//191/191421/339399/img_3616_1-or.jpg)

This bloody gasket was near to really drive me crazy!!!!!!! It took me 1,5 hour to remove it!!!!  :mad: :2guns:
(http://images6.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-6//191/191421/339399/img_3618_1-or.jpg)
(http://images3.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-3//191/191421/339399/img_3619_1-or.jpg)

One of the coils lost part of its resin covering... But I think it's ok in this way too (or maybe I'll rebuild it with some special resin, let's see):
(http://images4.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-4//191/191421/339399/img_3621_1-or.jpg)

Let's remove the starter engine...
(http://images1.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-1//191/191421/339399/img_3622_1-or.jpg)

...and the oil pan:
(http://images4.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-4//191/191421/339399/img_3624_1-or.jpg)

The oil pan cover was quite dirty: it's the place where all the most dirty parts of the oil settles.
Now it looks good:
(http://images5.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-5//191/191421/339399/img_3625_1-or.jpg)

Good! The engine now is ready to be really opened!
(http://images5.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-5//191/191421/339399/img_3626_1-or.jpg)

And the 2 shells are just un-glued:
(http://images4.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-4//191/191421/339399/img_3628_1-or.jpg)

But now STOP, otherwise the old bike owner (who made me to promise to call him when I had open the engine) will kill me ;-)

See you!

Oh, the suspense.  Better than any mystery novel.

(http://images1.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-1//191/191421/339399/img_3622_1-or.jpg)

It is hard to tell in the picture but it looks like the epoxy on one of the magnets has come off. Typically that is an indication that the magnet on the rotor is about to come loose. If that happens it can come off and break apart to spread itself all around your engine. Another picture may help, but in the one above it appears that way.

Good Luck Though!

Hi Coll0412,
yes, it's true: a small piece of resin came away, but it wasn't because the rotor is loose. It's very well tighten. It's only a matter of un-glueing (it remained in my hand only touching it):
(http://images1.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-1//191/191421/339399/img_3611_1-or.jpg)  ;)

Thanks for the warning!

TBH id replace it :thumb:

Difficult to say with certainty from the pic but from looking at the end of the Balancer shaft it would appear there is some heat discolouration or "Blueing" present. It could be down to the process used to harden the shaft  but it could also indicate a dry/worn/overheated bearing. I guess all will be revealed when you split the cases  :icon_question:

All the bearing shells in the GS5 are colour-coded. They have a tiny spot of paint on one edge which indicates their size. Try not to loose this spot if you clean them, it makes ordering replacements far easier. Chances are they wont all be the same size and they are not interchangable so its important to make a note of which size/colour goes in which location otherwise you have to cross-reference the various markings to ID the correct size. I cant remember what colours are used other than green and yellow and I dont have the manual with me right now.

I have to say your photos are setting a good example and show exactly how an engine should be dismantled and how the individual components should inspected and assesed  :thumb: I wouldnt worry to much about the missing epoxy on the magnet. Almost every rotor I have seen has been like that and had some missing from the front, as long as the magnet is not cracked and there is plenty of epoxy along the sides it will hold.

Possible discolouration indicated.
(http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd92/iainmcdermott/gssideview1.jpg)

Very similar to this well shagged example.
(http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd92/iainmcdermott/gsbott1.jpg)

Quote from: sledge on December 22, 2008, 04:34:18 AM
Difficult to say with certainty from the pic but from looking at the end of the Balancer shaft it would appear there is some heat discolouration or "Blueing" present. It could be down to the process used to harden the shaft  but it could also indicate a dry/worn/overheated bearing. I guess all will be revealed when you split the cases  :icon_question:

I'll see when I'll open the crankcase :-) The original diagnosis was "melted con-rod bearing", but they're fine, so maybe the problem is at balancer shaft level (but I think the problem is at gears level). I've the plastugauge to measure the clearance of the shafts so it will not be a problem.
Yes, I know about the colour code and letters for the bearing sizes  ;)

Ciao, Alex

Cam lobe wear is common with motors that have had crank bearings go bad. The metal that disintegrates ends up in the oil and gets to wherever it does ... in bearings you dont notice it especially, its just looks like bad bearings. Cams - yea you see it, yours are not too bad anyway.
Cool.
Buddha.

This is so EXCITING! :woohoo:

Quote from: commuterdude on December 22, 2008, 06:12:24 PM
This is so EXCITING! :woohoo:

look, cabin fever has taken one soul just now... ;)



i'm kidding, i like the thread too :)

dude! when is the next episode...?
I can't wait  :thumb:

seriously, this is very addictive  :)

cheers
Kamil

Quote from: kml.krk on December 22, 2008, 08:11:39 PM
dude! when is the next episode...?

Eheheh, yesterday I opened the engine. I didn't took pictures because the old owner was there. I'll do this evening probably.
But... Nothing special to say: from a first look, this bloody engine has absolutely NOTHING  :dunno_white:

So I'll have to check all part dimentions and clearances in order to find what's wrong in it  :confused:
Something very very boring...

Quote from: GenTLe on December 23, 2008, 03:23:41 AM

Quote from: kml.krk on December 22, 2008, 08:11:39 PM
dude! when is the next episode...?

Eheheh, yesterday I opened the engine. I didn't took pictures because the old owner was there. I'll do this evening probably.
But... Nothing special to say: from a first look, this bloody engine has absolutely NOTHING  :dunno_white:

So I'll have to check all part dimentions and clearances in order to find what's wrong in it  :confused:
Something very very boring...

how's bout a podcast ? ;)

so, what were the symptoms causing you to tear it down ? i don't remember reading that part ...

very good i almost feel like i could rebuild my engine just with these pic's

Quote from: ohgood on December 23, 2008, 05:53:36 AM
so, what were the symptoms causing you to tear it down ? i don't remember reading that part ...

Noisy engine, a couple of diagnosis of problems to connecting rods bearings, plus blocked engine while the owner was stuck at traffic lights...
I think some lubrication problem, but I hoped to find a more clear problem :-)

Cam chain rattle ? cam shaft side drift ? however that cam lobe did show some weird wear. Maybe it was making some noise.
You dont have the giveaway signs of oil starvation though ... Yea sledge says counterbalancer ... OK I'd give that a maybe ...
Cool.
Buddha.

The engine is now finally open and clean  :D

Let's see some detail.
This is the work table with all the most internal parts of the engine:
(http://images6.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-6//191/191421/339399/img_3629_1-or.jpg)

(http://images4.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-4//191/191421/339399/img_3649_1-or.jpg)

The upper part of the crankcase...
(http://images4.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-4//191/191421/339399/img_3630_1-or.jpg)

...and the lower part:
(http://images2.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-2//191/191421/339399/img_3631_1-or.jpg)

The gears (upper the primary shaft, lower the secondary one):
(http://images3.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-3//191/191421/339399/img_3641_1-or.jpg)

The 3 gear "forks":
(http://images4.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-4//191/191421/339399/img_3642_1-or.jpg)

Ok, let's go deeper in the bearing and surface conditions  ;)

First: the balancer shaft. It looks fine:
(http://images4.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-4//191/191421/339399/img_3643_1-or.jpg)
(http://images6.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-6//191/191421/339399/img_3644_1-or.jpg)

Its bearings are not bad too (remind we're speaking about 30000km -18600 miles- used bike):
(http://images4.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-4//191/191421/339399/img_3633_1-or.jpg)
(http://images1.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-1//191/191421/339399/img_3637_1-or.jpg)

The cranckshaft looks ok (the surfaces are perfectly smooth, touching them with a nail):
(http://images2.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-2//191/191421/339399/img_3646_1-or.jpg)
(http://images6.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-6//191/191421/339399/img_3645_1-or.jpg)

Its bearings could be better but they're not scraped or melted (and again they're smooth, touching them with a nail):
(http://images2.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-2//191/191421/339399/img_3635_1-or.jpg)

Also con-rod bearings are not that bad (maybe I'll change them, to stay on safe side):
(http://images3.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-3//191/191421/339399/img_3647_1-or.jpg)
(http://images6.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-6//191/191421/339399/img_3648_1-or.jpg)

Instead I don't like too much the seat of the secondary gear shaft bearing, the big one next to the final transmission pinion. It is quite smooth, but it looks like if the external part of this bearing rotated in its seat (and it's impossible since it has a stopper to avoid this). I'll put some gasket paste on this surface to act as a soft locker.
(http://images4.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-4//191/191421/339399/img_3636_1-or.jpg)
(http://images5.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-5//191/191421/339399/img_3638_1-or.jpg)

See you, and merry Christmas to all :-)

Alex

love the incredible details in the picture..engine look fine to me ..maybe the owner was just hearing stuff :)

I FOUND THE PROBLEM!!!

And... It is something very stupid  :woohoo: :woohoo:

Look here, this is the freewheel mechanism as it appears from the engine fiches:
(http://images2.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-2//191/191421/339399/freewheel-vi.jpg)

The starter engine is meshed with the small gear where there is number 1 call-out. The screws number 7 are tightened on the flywheel, and block the starter-clutch to it.

Well, I never dealt with freewheel devices, since until now I've ever had to deal with normal starter engine, like the ones used in the cars, but looking at it something appeared wrong: the big gear was free to move respect to the crankshaft, but the clutch (the one with parts 4-5-6 inside) was free to move too... So how could it transfer the force to the crankshaft????

Since I don't have the proper tool to remove the flywheel, I had to use a rubber hammer and a piece of wood, and after 10/15 hits, the flywheel went away... And this is what I found below:
(http://images1.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-1//191/191421/339399/img_3652_1-or.jpg)
(http://images2.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-2//191/191421/339399/img_3653_1-or.jpg)
(http://images2.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-2//191/191421/339399/img_3650_1-or.jpg)

Plus this, that was fixed in place by the magnetic force (I felt it moving while I was cleaning the part):
(http://images6.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-6//191/191421/339399/img_3656_1-or.jpg)
(http://images2.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-2//191/191421/339399/img_3654_1-or.jpg)

Now I know what the owner heard: the tinkling of the 1st and after some time 2nd broken screw!
And when the engine got stuck, it was the 3rd screw that went to "Oh my godness" and the friction sound was provoked by the broken screws that were digging into the flywheel  ;)

GOOD! :-) This engine will run again soon  :D :D :D

Quote from: GenTLe on December 24, 2008, 09:29:22 AM
I FOUND THE PROBLEM!!!

WHAT THE **** ARE YOU TRYING TO KILL ME?!? TELL US!

Quote from: tussey on December 24, 2008, 09:40:19 AM
WHAT THE **** ARE YOU TRYING TO KILL ME?!? TELL US!

LOL  :D
It was a fake post, now I fixed it ;-)

Amazing pictures as usual. I'm glad you found the problem! Keep us posted on the reassembly process.

Very thorough - great stuff!  :D

How in the world did the starter clutch and magnet manage to SHEAR 3 BOLTS!

That must have made a god awefull noise.

This is great.  Thank you thank you thank you for the pictures!

Interesting failure.

What does the inside of the sprag clutch look like?

Quote from: GeeP on December 24, 2008, 10:20:50 PM
What does the inside of the sprag clutch look like?

It's perfect: only the big gear has some scratch  :D

How is the starter?

Something must have suddenly stopped moving for the bolts to shear.

Could have been a backfire on starting.

GenTLe,  under what circumstances did the engine fail?

Many a  motor has been unnessesarily cracked open when it needed a valve adjustment, a cam chain fix or just plain cam shaft side drift whioch needs to be ignored.
A ban lower end, should be ridden till it locks up. A bad upper end presenting itself as a lower end problem, will never lock up. That is a sure way to find out.
Cool.
Buddha.

Quote from: coll0412 on December 25, 2008, 01:15:29 PM
How is the starter?
Something must have suddenly stopped moving for the bolts to shear.

Quote from: GeeP on December 25, 2008, 02:22:04 PM
GenTLe,  under what circumstances did the engine fail?

The starter is OK. I tested it with the battery  :D
I don't know WHY this happened, but what I've seen examining the bolts is that:
- 1st one bolt being cut... The owner continued to use the bike starting to hear some strange little noise. The bolt head in fact is heavily worn.
- 2nd the 2nd bolt being cut... The owner continued to use the bike hearing some more little noise. That bolt head is worn but not like the 1st one.
- 3rd, the 3rd bolt being cut... The freewheel started to seize with flywheel and the engine died. Fortunately when the owner was stuck at traffic lights, so light damage happened.

Buddha, I didn't really understand what you wrote here... Did you mean that it's too easy to be happy when, thinking about a big damage, I found a light one? But that in the meantime I would not have had to open the engine for nothing?
Well, I'm not a professional mechanic, and for me this is an hobby, so I liked to do this job, also if it wasn't probably necessary. And most probably I learned something new too. And for me this is more than fine :)

Now, since I don't want to spend more than 200€ (280US$ !!!!!!) to change the flywheel (I didn't find it on used market), I worked with special epoxy glue to fix it.


I firstly removed all the unglued original resin, then, using a VERY STRONG neodymium magnet took from a broken hard disk, I removed ALL the metal sliver attached to the magnets,  afterwards I cleaned perfectly the surfaces with nitro thinner, then I applied the 2 component glue. I also applied a clamp to the detached magnet to firmly fix it to the rest of flywheel.
With freshly applied resin, I "cooked" the flywheel in my oven, 1 hour at 160°C (320°F), to better dry the resin and give it more strength, according to glue technical sheet.

I used some sand paper on it to better refinish the resin surface, applied some other resin and recooked it again. And that's the result  :thumb::

(http://images1.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-1//191/191421/339399/img_3661_1-or.jpg)

(http://images1.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-1//191/191421/339399/img_3662_1-or.jpg)

(http://images1.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-1//191/191421/339399/img_3663_1-or.jpg)


In the meantime I checked all the crankshaft and balance shaft bearing clearances, finding them in tolerance.
I used Plastigauge that I bought in UK (it seems it's impossible to find this stuff here in Italy...):

(http://images5.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-5//191/191421/339399/img_3660_1-or.jpg)

I also checked the shafts run-out, again it's perfect:
(http://images1.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-1//191/191421/339399/img_3658_1-or.jpg)

I bet all the bolts where loose and the starter sprag was moving back and forth when starting and the engine spinning up. This resulted in the starter clutch housing rotating back and forth smacking into the bolts over and over again.

Booya ... goats disguising itself as a stuck motor ... choke on that moron.
Diagnosis ... waaaaaaaaay more important than the actual repair.
Cool.
Buddha.

Quote from: The Buddha on December 27, 2008, 12:55:21 PM
Booya ... goats disguising itself as a stuck motor ... choke on that moron.
Diagnosis ... waaaaaaaaay more important than the actual repair.

:icon_rolleyes:
Don't tell this to me, say this to those professional mechanicals that made the old owner to sell this bike for 400€ (he was going to throw it away to a scrapyard worker, I saved this bike), and that made me to open everything because their diagnosis were "broken/melted con-rod bearings" or "broken gears".
When I bought the bike, it was just blocked (from 5 months!) and I couldn't make any test before start to unmounting.

Dude you didn't have to split it. First you analyse it, then take make a theory and make a diagnosis and slowly follow your logical path.
I know easy for me to say, however I still say you dont split the cases if the bike is still running. Noise, yea prolly somehting else. Anyway you dont even have a bad case of goats. The magnet bits in the oil can get into the bearings. Yours ... nope ... cos you didn't have magnet shattering at all.
Cool.
Buddha.

Quote from: The Buddha on December 27, 2008, 04:39:46 PM
Dude you didn't have to split it. First you analyse it, then take make a theory and make a diagnosis and slowly follow your logical path.

But I couldn't!!! THE BIKE WAS BLOCKED when I got it!! No way to make the engine to move! I took it in that situation with 2 professional mechanic diagnosis!!
What I had to do? Try to turn it on? Impossible! The engine DIDN'T roll when I got it. Try to force it could bring the engine (in case of broken gears as said by Suzuki mechanics) to make it worse.
Unmount the rotor? Impossible without having the crankshaft in my hand! I don't have the Suzuki extractor!

Anyway, it was dirty, inside. Now I'm comfortably sure that it's perfect. And this is what I wanted.
This bike is for my girlfriend, I MUST feel safe to give her a perfect bike.

Take the left side off, which you did, then you remove the magnet which you did, and that point it didn't look boogered ? You didn't take the starter clutch housing off ? Now I would have ... if I even missed it there, by the tile I yanked the cylinders off and didn't see the rods burnt or really really wobbling in their journals I'd have started looking elsewhere, possibly starting with the magnet etc.
I'd never have split the bottom end which was rolling fine and not wobbling in the rod journals.
Cool.
Buddha.

Quote from: The Buddha on December 27, 2008, 05:19:07 PM
then you remove the magnet which you did

I didn't.
I don't have the extractor. I removed the magnet only hitting it with a rubber hammer from behind = when the crankshaft was out from the engine.

Guy, my work is to solve problem: I'm a system administrator for the central European data center of Coca-cola, and I'm good in analysis and troubleshooting, since I'm responsible for about 300 central server machines where 15000 users works 24h. This to assure you that the way I acted was the only possible way, in this case.

We made our own magnet removal tool. Search for sliding hammer. Starwalt made one, and I made one and both of them are in circulation. I then made another for personal use.
Its easy, anyway, fellow unix application support brother ... I used to work for big banks, wachovia, JP morgan and B of A doing trading application support. Sys admin is more like replacing disks and trouble shooting network types right ? Yea I got some close co workers who do that. I do application side support on unix.
Anyway, you need sliding hammer type tool.
Cool.
Buddha.

GenTLe, you're doing fine.  In fact, you're doing precisely what I'd do in the same situaton.  The Plastigauge looks good! :)

Keep up the good work!

P.S.  Your diagnosis is probably correct.  I think it likely that the starter clutch bolts lost torque, resulting in fatigue failure.  Finding the differential wear patterns on the three bolts was good detective work.  Most mechanics would have missed that detail.   :thumb:

Was there any sign of thread locker on the clutch bolts remains upon removal?  If not, it might be worth installing them with Loc-tite upon reinstallation regardless of whether it is specified in the manual or not.

Quote from: The Buddha on December 27, 2008, 06:03:45 PM
We made our own magnet removal tool.

When I'll buy a lathe  ;)  And I'm thinking to buy one from some time. Have to find the place to fit it, but I'm very greedy about it  :D
About the job: well, no, changing the disks is something very easy (ok, on UX if you've software mirror or raid5 with LVM isn't so immediate) but it's not my job. Usually I start to work as 3rd level support in case of cluster failures (happens, especially on Ms systems), when I've to setup and configure Cisco network devices, SAN setup, zoning, Domino administration, backup infrastructure design and creation and so on. Infrastructure and OS/network administration, in a way that the environment is fine for the application layer or, in case of problems, these problems will be solved as soon as possible to give again a strong environment to the users and to people like you that work on application layers  ;)

Quote from: GeeP on December 27, 2008, 06:08:23 PM
Was there any sign of thread locker on the clutch bolts remains upon removal?  If not, it might be worth installing them with Loc-tite upon reinstallation regardless of whether it is specified in the manual or not.

Thanks GeeP!  :D
No sign of loctite on the bolts, and yes, I've here my loctite and for sure I'll use it  :)
Now I've to wait not less then 15 days, since I need a gasket set, plus a couple of other things, and the official Suzuki shop here is closed for stocktaking until 6 January + 7/15 days to have the parts  :icon_confused:

See you :-)

A lathe for the magnet. That'll be the day. I used a front axle bolt, a 10 lb dead weight slug with a large 5/8 or so inch hole in it, and welded handles to it. Then use a large washer on the axle. Then slide away. I believe starwalt started with a commercial sliding hammer and threaded that shaft to fit the GS. Its basically simple, throw a few things together and weld up.
Cool.
Buddha.

Hi all,
I agree with Buddha on this one.
I have worked as a professional motorcycle mechanic in the past and as a car mechanic.
The first step of any major possible repair is NOT pulling the engine.
It is taking the side covers off, maybe the top end if needed, to find the problem.
I would have pulled both side engine covers with the engine still in the bike and taken a look at what was there.
Pulling the engine comes last, with total disassembly, AFTER you know what's wrong or have ruled out everything else.
It's fine that you did all this, and I'm glad you are happy to have been in there and cleaned it all up.
But you just didn't absolutely have to go this far to diagnose and fix it. :)
Others here on the board have done this, too.
It is just another good example of:
Check on the board first and search for similar problems.
Ask for opinions and help. It's likely someone else here has experienced what you are experiencing with your bike.
Be patient and logical and take the simple actions first.
It sounds like you are having fun with the project, so it certainly is NOT in vain. :)
I'm just reminding everyone not to pull the engine at the first noise. :)
Best wishes and Happy New Year, my friends.
Yours,
Trwhouse

The worst thing is, if the noise was from the starter rotor, and you fix it, and ride it and it dies cos the bearings were just a few miles from going anyway. I ahve a savage that I am worried that may be the case. Hope not. But its still a possiblity.
Cool.
Buddha.

Wow, what a bunch of douchebags  :cookoo:  GenTLe never said that this was the only way to diagnose the problem, just that it was his way of going about it.  If he wanted to thoroughly check the engine before having his girlfriend ride the bike, then there's absolutely nothing wrong with what he did.  If nothing else, he's adding a great amount of information to this site with this thread (certainly more than I have). 

The way I see it, he was working toward possibly confirming a suggestion from some professional mechanics, not from scratch.  If I had a couple mechanics give me their opinions on what the problem was, I probably wouldn't start a diagnosis from scratch either...especially since I have no prior experience with this type of work.  I think I'm so defensive of GenTLe because he did exactly what I would do, whether or not it was the most efficient way possible.  Actually this is similar to the way I fixed the transmission on my track bike:  I consulted every source I could think of with a description of the symptoms and nobody had any clue - once I pulled the bottom end apart, I realized I could've fixed the problem by removing the clutch and tightening a bolt.  Call me stupid, but I learned a lot during the process and replaced a few worn gears while I was in there. 

GenTLe, I appreciate the work you've put into documenting your teardown of the engine.  I'm sure it will help plenty of people looking to this site for information.  And in the spirit of Buddha and Trwhouse, maybe it'll help someone find their problem without pulling the engine out unnecessarily.  Either way, I'm glad you took the time to share the experience  :thumb:

GS motors are available on the street for 200-300 bucks. No sane person will rebuild one right to the transmission. In fact I had a seca 2 with a bad starter clutch. I knew that it was the issue, no question about it. The starter clutch was ~125 and 4-5 hours work. I bought a motor for 150 and spent 4-5 hours with a swap. I then rode it for 6K miles and sold it. That guy that bought it over 9 months ago, never came back to get the motor that was included with the sale. That's how useful the busted motors are.

In some ways knowing how to do some stuff, really gets in the way of you doing it the efficient way.

This thread actually is a great example of how not to do stuff, incredibly detailed and very very interesting way to send people running the other way.

Like the graphic pictures of a chronic smokers lungs. To prove the point, I do have a motor with a bad rod bearing. I know its a bad rod bearing, I am looking at it everyday. I still wont do this, I took stuff off it but that is it. I may harvest more crap from it, but the rest of it is going to end up in the garbage. That is practical. I dont need to prove that I can rebuild it. I know I can buy a motor for 2-300, its better to do that.

Cool.
Buddha.

Sr*n*th, let it go.

Budda, che 2 gran coglioni dio can!

You prefer trow stuff away. I prefer to fix.
Like I did last year for my TL1000S (5 weekends spent to find the electrical issue measuring all the sensors values).
Don't like my job? OK, go on trow stuff away. I'm different.
I've time. I DO like to do these jobs. I have many evening to spend. I've something to learn.

This is my last reply to you. We think _very_ differently, and I'm bored to loose time in this way.
I've an engine to bring to original splendor.

My point exactly - GenTLe - you spent 5 weekends trouble shooting your TL. You didn't split its cases and search for somehting busted.

On the GS, You never even bothered to look inside the cover and take it apart the right way. You do need to get the starter clutch and magnet off before you split the cases - that is the right way. Outside to in. Had you done to the GS what you did to the TL, You'd have a running GS by now with a $100 rotor which was all that was needed.

I throw away the motor. not my time and $. Your call what you prefer to spend how. But dont claim this was the right thing to do ... cos it was not. Not even close.

The right thing to do is to open the left cover, and everything inside it, open the right side, everything inside it, and then proceed from there.

Entertaining like a train wreck - I'll give you that. Wholly futile.

And che 2 gran coglioni dio can! to you too.

Cool.
Buddha.

Quote from: GeeP on December 29, 2008, 09:38:27 AM
Sr*n*th, let it go.

I am trying to prevent my name being searched. That's why I became the buddha.
I need to let it go, why ??? cos this horse is dead and I dont need to beat it into mush ... K I'll give you that. After all I am the one on another board who famously said "I see dead horses ... and I see people beating them and beating them and beating them".
Nothing more annoying than when you do somehting stupid someone is there pointing it out. Its now all their fault.
Cool.
Buddha.

I've watched with rapt attention this caterpillar-motor as it blossems into a butterfly....please send more pics!   I like what you have done, and agree that you will never know an engine better than from the ground up.   However, in buddha's defense (not sure why), I believe he has the newer members of the bike modification and repair collective in mind.  I think he is instructing the new on the simplest way to acclomplish things, and he is right.  I hope in the future he will be less abrasive, as his manner of relaying this information may drive people away!  But, I beleive he has good intentions.  This board is a fountain of information and everyone has things to add!   Damn, I sound like a flower child...... O0   

Abrasive ... abrasive, I am never abrasive ... except on months that have days that end in "ay". Then all bets are off.
Cool.
Buddha.

ok this is probably a noob question but what is a deep external cleaning and how do you do it? ive got another bike im fixing and will need to clean the engine.

Pressure washer maybe ?
Cool.
Buddha.

Quote from: socialDK on December 30, 2008, 01:17:52 PM
ok this is probably a noob question but what is a deep external cleaning and how do you do it? ive got another bike im fixing and will need to clean the engine.

Cover up everything that might get damaged like plastics, rubber, airfilters. Then get a can of foaming engine degreaser from your local auto shop assuming its grease your removing. Follow the directions on the can. If your not familiar it's something like this... Spray the motor. Let it sit for a couple minutes. You may need to scrub a little or a lot depending on how much gunk is built up, not to mention the nice asphalt that so conveniently comes off the road easier than it comes off my engine. Finally, hose off. Double check your wrap jobs before the hosing off. You don't need any water getting into electrical connections or your air filter. Maybe give the bike some time to dry off if you think some got wet. Hopefully someone will add another method  :D

Quote from: socialDK on December 30, 2008, 01:17:52 PM
ok this is probably a noob question but what is a deep external cleaning and how do you do it? ive got another bike im fixing and will need to clean the engine.

Hi SocialDK!
Deep clean is necessary for at least a couple of reasons:
1- dust inside and engine is "the" evil  :icon_twisted:
2- I hate to work on dirty parts, getting dirty hands, tools, workplace and so on

In this case the motorcycle remained uncovered from last July (5 months) under Milan sky (I write from Italy), and it has not been cleaned before.
So I cleaned the bike normally with car shampoo, then I cleaned the greasy parts with a strong soap (a degreaser commonly used for housecleanings too), on this degreaser I used a pressure washer. TAKE CARE if your bike is liquid cooled to keep the flow far from the radiator cooler because it could really damage it.
Keep it away from electrical parts too: mine reach 140atm of pressure, so it can really make the water to penetrate everything...
After the engine was on the table, I used a brush, kerosene, some rags and compressed air.
Better NOT to use normal gasoline because it's too flammable and it can damage rubber parts (it makes them to become dry and an-elastic, same reason that suggest not to use it on drive chain with OR gaskets).
On the bike, after cleaning and degreasing, on those parts that could create rust I sprayed some WD40 (any other spray-able lubricant is good)


PS: thanks guys, and thanks to you too Buddha. As I said I wanted to do this kind of job on an engine (basically I do the same on every stuff I buy as used). And I agree that it is better to search a failure in a more logical way. This time I couldn't do a diagnose and so, starting from the Suzuki professional mechanics -that should know this bike better than me- diagnose, I searched for melted bearings :-)

PS2: The crankcase is closed (it needs only some gasket-paste), but for the rest I need to wait 2/3 weeks for the gasket kit, so I'll update the thread (and do some other photos) at that point  ;) Now I'm searching for three hex socket bolts 8x16 but this time instead of OEM ones I'll use 12.9 ones (in Europe this code means the strongest bolts on the market)  :icon_mrgreen:

:)

You opened up that motor and closed it back in under a week. OK you definetly were justified in opening it. If I had been working on it, I'd have found the problem, hammered it out with my sliding hammer. And it will be collecting water right now. Yea water, cos its rained and fogged so much the last few weeks over here. Now you replace any of the bearings inside ? they say you should, but well, if you're fitting it exactly back as it was, I cant imagine if it be too big a deal.

BTW I pressure washed my vulcan motor one time and it took all the engine paint off. It looked like crap. But well, kawi is famous for putting shitty stuff in their bikes.

Cool.
Buddha.

I'll be doing a similar tear down and inspection this winter I hope.  Got an 89 basket case that will be donating it's motor to my race bike.  Before it goes in, I'm going through it top o bottom.  Nice to see some shots of the inside so I know what I'm about to encounter.

Anyone got suggestions for must do things for racing while I'm in there?  I know the counter balancer bearings are getting replaced as they take a beating when raced, any other items I should just replace for good measure?

Some good news :-)

1st of all, for 0.5€ (40 cents) I got 3 new bolts of the most strong type: 12.9 steel (the bolts, for the ISO standards, are divided in different classes of resistances, grades: 4.6, 5,6, 6.8, 8.6, 8.8, 10.9, 12.9).
(http://images1.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-1//191/191421/339399/img_3707_1-or.jpg)

Here you can see the different consumption of the 3 broken ones (from left to right, the 1st and the last broken) and the resistance class on the new bolts:
(http://images5.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-5//191/191421/339399/img_3705_1-or.jpg)

So I screwed them to a more appropriate value (the manual says 18Nm -13lb-ft, I tightened them at 30Nm -22lb-ft) with a good amount of medium threadlocker, and I assembled the part on the crankshaft, tightening it at 125Nm as from manual.
I covered the part to avoid metal chips to stick on the magnet surfaces:
(http://images2.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-2//191/191421/339399/img_3722_1-or.jpg)

Then I checked that the camshafts are good and in tolerance (with my girlfriend's hands :-) ):
(http://images5.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-5//191/191421/339399/img_3726_1-or.jpg)
(http://images3.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-3//191/191421/339399/img_3728_1-or.jpg)

After this, I temporarily (I'm still waiting for the gaskets) assembled cylinder block and head so I could take the valve clearances and order the new pads with the correct values.
But I had an issue: I discovered that the feeler gauge was not so precise, so I checked all the 32 leaves with a Mitutoyo micrometer (0,001mm)...
(http://images5.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-5//191/191421/339399/img_3721_1-or.jpg)


Here the head with the correctly positioned camshafts:
ATTENTION HERE!
Look at THIS http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=46805.0 (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=46805.0) thread if you don't want to mount them wrongly!!!
(http://images2.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-2//191/191421/339399/img_3719_1-or.jpg)
(http://images5.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-5//191/191421/339399/img_3717_1-or.jpg)
(http://images4.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-4//191/191421/339399/img_3718_1-or.jpg)

As you can see the mounting is temporarily (look at the nuts):
(http://images4.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-4//191/191421/339399/img_3715_1-or.jpg)

Now let's wait for the gaskets :-)

Alex

Hey man we were having a discussion about your motor.
Were the bolts  sheared before you got the motor apart ? was it what was causing the noise. Or did they shear as you tried to remove the rotor.
Cool.
Buddha.

Hi Buddha,
Of course they have been sheared before (when the bike was in the hands of the previous owner). This was the reason of the noise he heard, and the reason of the engine being stuck (when the last one was cut).
And the reason the starter engine was blocked too.

Quote from: GenTLe on December 27, 2008, 07:53:24 AM
- 1st one bolt being cut... The owner continued to use the bike starting to hear some strange little noise. The bolt head in fact is heavily worn.
- 2nd the 2nd bolt being cut... The owner continued to use the bike hearing some more little noise. That bolt head is worn but not like the 1st one.
- 3rd, the 3rd bolt being cut... The freewheel started to seize with flywheel and the engine died. Fortunately when the owner was stuck at traffic lights, so light damage happened.

You previously asked me about internal bearings: I checked their clearances with plastigauge and they were perfect, so I left them.

Bye, ALex

OK that was my thought, thanks.
Cool.
Buddha.

Today I retired the gasket pack  and the new valve pads (plus the filters) :woohoo:
(http://images5.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-5//191/191421/339399/img_3737_1-or.jpg)

Last week, I opened again the block (Not a big problem: 1h job :-)) because I saw that part of the red paste was squeezed out from the contact surfaces when I tightened the screws, and I was worried about the possibility that this "stuff" could be removed from oil and brought around, with the risk to close some oil passage...
This time to close it I used a different gasket paste, black one, and I removed part of it from the most internal surface parts:
(http://images4.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-4//191/191421/339399/img_3734_1-or.jpg)

(http://images5.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-5//191/191421/339399/img_3735_1-or.jpg)

The squeezed part, externally, appears in this way:
(http://images2.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-2//191/191421/339399/img_3736_1-or.jpg)
and it's ok (anyway I removed it, where I could).

These are the copper gaskets that must be placed under the head nuts. In order not to buy them again (25US$!), I (with my girlfriend's help) re-cooked them.
Copper, to act as a gasket, must be malleable, so it can adapt itself to the surfaces it has to seal. The problem is that copper, if exposed to stress, is subject to strain hardening effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_hardening (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_hardening)), so to re-use the old gaskets, I had to anneal them (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annealing_(metallurgy) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annealing_(metallurgy))), bringing them to red cherry color with butane flame and immediately after, putting them in 35% Hydrochloric acid  .
This is the result:
(http://images1.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-1//191/191421/339399/img_3731_1-or.jpg)

Then I discovered that they were comprised into the gasket kit (they weren't in its description...)  :embarassed:

This is the block ready for cylinders installation:
(http://images1.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-1//191/191421/339399/img_3738_1-or.jpg)

I oiled ALL the new gaskets, because I don't want to be in trouble again in case I have to open a carter cover...

And after the cylinders installation:
(http://images4.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-4//191/191421/339399/img_3740_1-or.jpg)

Then I put the head, I checked the valve clearances with new pads and finally I closed the thermal part:
(http://images5.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-5//191/191421/339399/img_3741_1-or.jpg)

Tomorrow I'll finish to assembly the clutch side (I'm still waiting a couple of oil seals for the pinion shaft and gear command shaft)  :D

One of the best threads I've read GenTLe, almost makes me want to tear mine apart at some point and rebuild it  :cheers:

Great pictures, Great work.  Thank you.

I bought a gasket kit and want to repace the side cover gasket (the side in the last pic) From what you can see will i need to drain my oil? Great thread by the way!

Quote from: GenTLe on January 17, 2009, 01:14:08 PM
I had to anneal them. Bringing them to red cherry color with butane flame and immediately after, putting them in 35% Hydrochloric acid  .

Heating up then cooling quickly would harden the metal not anneal it. Why hydrochloric acid? :thumb:

Quote from: Weston on January 17, 2009, 02:53:22 PM
I bought a gasket kit and want to repace the side cover gasket (the side in the last pic) From what you can see will i need to drain my oil? Great thread by the way!

I'm not sure (because when I opened it the oil was just drained) but for sure if you want to put the bike on central stand, and most probably also in case of lateral stand. Anyway if you use a clean container to put the oil in, you can re-use that oil :-)
Remember NOT to tighten the oil drain screw too much, I've seen many damaged threads because of this. If possible use a dynamometric Key (23Nm - 16.5lb-ft).

Ciao, Alex

Quote from: ke7syv on January 17, 2009, 11:00:40 PM
Heating up then cooling quickly would harden the metal not anneal it. Why hydrochloric acid? :thumb:

This is true for steel, instead for copper is the right way (I've also tested it on a spare copper piece) :-)
The best was to use Sulfuric acid, 10%, but I don't have it here. Another possibility was using HCl, starting from 30% concentration. IT's used for the pickling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickling_(metal) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickling_(metal)))  8)

Thank you so much for the excellent tour of engine tear-down and rebuild.  Great work, and I'm glad you had fun doing it, but I think there's a lesson here for all of us.  When you own a GS 500, splitting the cases is the LAST thing you should do as long as you don't run it out of oil.  After some thought, I think I know what caused the problem.  I'll bet the owner pressed the starter button on many occasions while the engine was running.

He is making me eat my words. I chided him for not checking if the motor had external problem (goats is external IMHO) ... but he's definetly put me to slience.
Cool.
Buddha.

More amazing photos. Thanks again for sharing this process with us. I know taking photos slows down the work, and I think its great that you're willing to take the time to share this process with us.

Maybe these will be the last images; maybe I'll post some other ones when the bike will be completely finished  :D

In any case, thanks to all for the support, I loved your enthusiasm and I liked to see that this job generated some discussions too. It's always a good thing, when it comes to learning.

So, this is the oil pan, all is ready for the closedown:
(http://images3.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-3//191/191421/339399/img_3744_1-or.jpg)

and also the clutch side is ready to be sealed:
(http://images4.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-4//191/191421/339399/img_3746_1-or.jpg)

this is something important if you want to be able to open the covers again without to change the gasket: OIL THEM!:
(http://images5.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-5//191/191421/339399/img_3747_1-or.jpg)

ATTENTION HERE!
Look at THIS http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=46805.0 (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=46805.0) thread if you don't want to mount them wrongly!!!
the ignition sensor for the recent models: 1 pick-up only, so the timing chain must be set with the line near to L ° T positioned on sensor middle <- THIS IS WRONG!!! TAKE CARE!!!:
(http://images6.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-6//191/191421/339399/img_3748_1-or.jpg)

then I've seen that the air breather metal hoses (plus a couple of other parts with some rust on them) weren't in a nice condition, as like as their screws, so i decided to use acid (HCl) to clean them properly, and, after this, I used this paint (that must be cooked at 160°C - 320°F to finally dry and support until 800°C - 1470°F): http://www.dupli-color.de/webgate/WG_5_2.nsf/ContentByKey/PKXR-52JA2C-EN-p (http://www.dupli-color.de/webgate/WG_5_2.nsf/ContentByKey/PKXR-52JA2C-EN-p)

The parts after acid:
(http://images2.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-2//191/191421/339399/img_3749_1-or.jpg)

and after paint:
(http://images3.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-3//191/191421/339399/img_3750_1-or.jpg)

And, finally, the completed engine:
(http://images3.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-3//191/191421/339399/img_3769_1-or.jpg)
(http://images2.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-2//191/191421/339399/img_3770_1-or.jpg)

Ah, there is another part that I'm fixing, but it's not engine stuff... It's the rear passenger handle. The paint was not good, some of it was inconsistent, with bubbles under... So I used another chemical stuff (DANGEROUS!!! take care if you use it! It HURTS a lot if goes on the skin, and it's a venom, containing methanol and dichloromethane!!) that produces this effect:
(http://images3.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-3//191/191421/339399/img_3764_1-or.jpg)

and, after removal of detached paint, this is the result. You can see the Al oxide that was present below the original paint:
(http://images5.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-5//191/191421/339399/img_3767_1-or.jpg)

I'm going to re-paint it with glossy black paint, with a previous treatment with sand-paper and a good epoxy primer :-)

See you guys!

Alessandro - Milano - Italy

Looks good!

When you are putting the gasket maker on the case halves, I usually stop about 1/8"-3/16" in front of the bearing surfaces. It squeezes out a bit(depending on how much you put in) and that prevents it from oozing into the bearings themselves.

Also for future reference for those in the US and Canada, you can order a nice Veshra Gasket set for $68 shipped from partsnmore.com, which includes everything that the OEM gasket set includes

https://www.partsnmore.com/motorcycle-gasket_sets.php?make=suzuki&category=gasket_set

Your engine looks and is better than a new one from Suzuki.

Im in way over my head (after looking at this thread)....I'm rebuilding (2) 2004 engines and putting one in my '89....  I couldn't find a gasket kit for a 2004, did you use one from 89-96?  Or did you find a gasket kit for late models?

Quote from: playmemuzk on January 26, 2009, 10:52:48 PM
Im in way over my head (after looking at this thread)....I'm rebuilding (2) 2004 engines and putting one in my '89....  I couldn't find a gasket kit for a 2004, did you use one from 89-96?  Or did you find a gasket kit for late models?

I simply went to my Suzuki official reseller and I bought a kit for my bike. Original one from the official catalog. The only problem I've seen is that it wasn't properly for MY engine, since it had not the gaskets for the 2 air-injection breather pipes, so most probably it was for a previous version (maybe 2001, maybe before). For the rest they're identical. So I created the gaskets for those holes by myself, using hi-temp gasket material bought from an industrial material reseller and cutting it in shape :-)
The other problem is that original kit is quite expensive... 140€....
I think there's no problem also buying an older kit :-)

Some upgrade  ;)

The handle now it's like new:
(http://images6.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-6//191/191421/339399/img_3782_1-or.jpg)

Then I started to check the brake calipers.
The previous owner never cleaned them, I use to do a deep clean every 25000km (15500miles) on my bikes.
This is the situation of the front brake caliper after 22000 miles without any maintenance:
(http://images2.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-2//191/191421/339399/img_3772_1-or.jpg)
(http://images1.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-1//191/191421/339399/img_3773_1-or.jpg)

So, 1st of all, let's disassembly it (for the rear caliper, remember to untighten the mounting screw BEFORE take the caliper from the bike).
I used a needle to remove the gaskets, WITHOUT pierce them, and CAREFULLY, use compressed air to push the pistons out.
(http://images3.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-3//191/191421/339399/img_3775_1-or.jpg)

Then I cleaned the parts deeply with a sponge, degreaser and a brush (plus 1500 sand paper and WD-40 for the rusted pivots):
(http://images6.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-6//191/191421/339399/img_3778_1-or.jpg)

Then, with VERY thin water sandpaper (grade 1500), using wd-40 instead of water, I cleaned the 2 pistons. Here you can see the difference between before and after the cleaning:
(http://images4.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-4//191/191421/339399/img_3777_1-or.jpg)

And finally I rebuild the caliper (putting some gasket grease on the gaskets before to mount them), here is at the end (I also painted with high temperature paint the pad support):
(http://images3.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-3//191/191421/339399/img_3781_1-or.jpg)

This is the rear caliper before cleaning:
(http://images1.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-1//191/191421/339399/img_3779_1-or.jpg)

and after cleaning:
(http://images2.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-2//191/191421/339399/img_3780_1-or.jpg)

Now let's wait for new brake pads :-)

Whats up with the cylinder bores? It looks like chatter. Some SS sleeved calipers I looked at for my vette the advertise a 2 micron surface finish. I almost looks like a mirror finish.

Quote from: zeusrekning on January 28, 2009, 05:14:21 PM
Whats up with the cylinder bores? It looks like chatter. Some SS sleeved calipers I looked at for my vette the advertise a 2 micron surface finish. I almost looks like a mirror finish.

I don't understand really what you wrote, sorry (remember I'm italian ) :cry:
But, if I understood correctly: the bore diameter was good and in tolerance.
And, for the surface shiny finish, it's not good: on the cylinders there are many very small grooves, even on the ones with chrome surfaces, and these are VERY useful. In Italy we call them "uttature" (I didn't find any English word for this). These are needed because the oil fits in them and this make the lubrication effective.
If the cylinder surface is completely shiny, the oil doesn't stick on the cylinder and the lubrication became poor.

There's another problem related to these grooves: the tightness between piston rings and cylinders is assured from the high pressure combustion gases that goes between the piston rings and the piston ring cavities, pushing the rings against the cylinder. If the engine runs too much at low throttle opening, the combustion generate less pressure (because of weak combustion), so the piston rings are pushed against the cylinder with faintness.
This cause part of the hot combustion gases to pass between piston rings and cylinder (it's a phenomenon called "blow-by"), and, since these gases are HOT, to carbonize the oil inside the quoted grooves, lacquering the cylinder surface. This is BAD, because this generate lack of lubrication and major oil consumption...
And the only 2 ways to solve this issue are:
- re-bore the cylinder
- manually ream the cylinder with grade 100/150 sand paper, taking care to rotate the paper while pushing it inside, in a way to create 45° grooves versus left and 45° grooves versus right:
NOT in this way:
(http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/8841/12ff3.jpg)
But in this way:
(http://www.lnengineering.com/hatfield2.jpg)

I hope I replyed to your question :-)

Sorry Gentle, After wakeing up complety I realized I was wrong. I assumed the pic. of the brake caliper showed Stainless steel sleeves, when they were actually the hollow pistons. This is what happens when I ass-u-me.  :dunno_white:  But anyway I really enjoy the depth of what you have done and the great picture filled post. Good luck the rest of the way.

You should have painted the calipers high-heat RED instead of the stock black/charcoal... :)

Hi guys!
I'm back again :-)

Let's go on...
1st: if possible AVOID to leave this bike outside... It's bloody frame is made in steel, and Suzuki economized on paint :-( No primer between the paint (probably dust paint) and metal stuff.
After a couple of years outside, these are the results!  >:(

The batterry cage:
(http://images4.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-4//191/191421/339399/img_3783_1-or.jpg)

The swing-arm and part of the shock absorber leverage  (JUST treated with metal brush and hydrochloric acid, to remove the most part of the rust):
(http://images6.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-6//191/191421/339399/img_3789_1-or.jpg)
(http://images3.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-3//191/191421/339399/img_3790_1-or.jpg)

Plus there was heavy rust on the central stand, on the shok absorber spring, and so on...  :icon_neutral:

Ah, and this sh*t was the steering upper bearing (the lower one was perfect):
(http://images3.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-3//191/191421/339399/img_3786_1-or.jpg)
(http://images2.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-2//191/191421/339399/img_3787_1-or.jpg)

So, considering that I don't like to paint, also if I'm quite good with it (I painted my other motorcycle by my own), I had to put a lot of effort to fix these stuffs...

Wow, that is a whole lot of rust! My bikes are always outside, and one of them is showing quite a bit of rust... Shoot, might be time to strip it completely and get it media blasted and powder coated or something along those lines...

Continuing from the previous message :-)

This is how I proceeded:

1st: use metal brush to remove the incoherent paint and reveal the hidden rust.

2nd: close with "american tape" (http://www.oz-q.com/humour/duct%20tape.jpg (http://www.oz-q.com/humour/duct%20tape.jpg)) the bearing holes

3rd: CAREFULLY use hydrochloride acid, leaving it for 5/10 mins on the rusted parts, to remove the main rust

4th: wash everything with water + washing soda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_carbonate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_carbonate)) to make acid inert

5th: washing again with clean water to remove soda

6th: treat everything with a GOOD rust converter until the rust is converted totally, then clean them (the ONLY good ones are stuffs based on phosphoric acid, OR the Fertan http://www.fertanamerica.com/ (http://www.fertanamerica.com/); Ferox from Arexons and all the white milky "rust converter" are really assholes: they convert just some micron of rust and create a layer on it, and the rust continue to dig below, making that layer to detach from the surface, with all the paint you used over it)

7th: paint with a good primer paint (I used industrial nitro one):
(http://images6.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-6//191/191421/339399/img_3791_1-or.jpg)
ehi: the part below the spring is covered with paper and sellotape, it's still back  ;)

(http://images2.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-2//191/191421/339399/img_3792_1-or.jpg)

On the swing-arm, inside its "arms" I also used a special paint for internal car metal bodyworks (all the parts that are not exposed to direct air).

8th: finish with a good "enamel" paint (again I used industrial nitro one):
(http://images1.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-1//191/191421/339399/img_3785_1-or.jpg)

(http://images6.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-6//191/191421/339399/img_3799_1-or.jpg)

(http://images4.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-4//191/191421/339399/img_3794_1-or.jpg)

(http://images3.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-3//191/191421/339399/img_3795_1-or.jpg)

(http://images4.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-4//191/191421/339399/img_3798_1-or.jpg)

Ah, and this, on the left, directly from SKF Germany (I've the official reseller near here) is the new steering bearing (compared to the old one - cleaned, on the right - ):
(http://images4.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-4//191/191421/339399/img_3797_1-or.jpg)

Will I finish this bike?  :D

That paint job looks great. You'll probably finish this bike a few weeks before you sell it to buy a totally different project bike...

Quote from: fred on February 11, 2009, 04:38:19 PM
That paint job looks great. You'll probably finish this bike a few weeks before you sell it to buy a totally different project bike...

Eheheh  :)
Thanks, but I'll not sell it: I took it for my girlfriend. She has to learn. Then, knowing her, she will probably buy some missile, like GSX-R 750 or something similar  :cool:

Quote from: GenTLe on February 11, 2009, 04:45:43 PM

Quote from: fred on February 11, 2009, 04:38:19 PM
That paint job looks great. You'll probably finish this bike a few weeks before you sell it to buy a totally different project bike...

Eheheh  :)
Thanks, but I'll not sell it: I took it for my girlfriend. She has to learn. Then, knowing her, she will probably buy some missile, like GSX-R 750 or something similar  :cool:

I know how that goes. I'm hoping that I can get my girlfriend to ride my project bike once it is working again. She hasn't ever ridden a bike before, but the GS is a good beginner bike and I'll send her to the class if she'll go... I don't think seeing it in pieces is helping though, she's like "I've seen you take that thing apart and curse at it for not running, how do I know you didn't miss something?" Hopefully she'll come around eventually...

Quote from: fred on February 11, 2009, 04:58:14 PM
I know how that goes. I'm hoping that I can get my girlfriend to ride my project bike once it is working again. She hasn't ever ridden a bike before, but the GS is a good beginner bike and I'll send her to the class if she'll go... I don't think seeing it in pieces is helping though, she's like "I've seen you take that thing apart and curse at it for not running, how do I know you didn't miss something?" Hopefully she'll come around eventually...

Well, mostly depends from your girlfriend character: mine was used to sail with race sail-ships, run with bicycles, ski and, after 1st trip with me on my motorcycle, she claimed that I had to teach her to ride a bike too.
If your girlfriend doesn't like adrenaline, fast stuffs, and such things, it could be a forcing and she'll never take the passion. Or she will do all but for you only (and this is even worse).
Take care ;-)

ALex

Let's go on with rusty jobs  :D

Ok, give a look here, at the frame  >:( :icon_twisted::
(http://images6.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-6//191/191421/339399/img_3800_1-or.jpg)

(http://images6.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-6//191/191421/339399/img_3801_1-or.jpg)

Such a filthiness eh?  :cry:

So, after removing of the incoherent rust, I acted with my precious converter (since to work it must stay wet, I packed all the parts where I put it):
(http://images3.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-3//191/191421/339399/img_3802_1-or.jpg)

Then, after removal of the rust converted into dust, I put some primer/anti-rust:
(http://images4.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-4//191/191421/339399/img_3804_1-or.jpg)

(http://images2.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-2//191/191421/339399/img_3805_1-or.jpg)

And, finally, black paint :-)
(http://images6.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-6//191/191421/339399/img_3806_1-or.jpg)

(http://images3.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-3//191/191421/339399/img_3807_1-or.jpg)

(http://images1.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-1//191/191421/339399/img_3808_1-or.jpg)

Now, finally, I can start to reassembly everything to form again a running motorcycle  :D :D

Nice work with the paint. You are going to have one amazing looking bike when it is back together.

Excellent work man, I love your work ethic.  Nothing to small, and always done right!  Your girl will be lucky when you hand her a bike that will probably be better than when first built!  :thumb: to you!

 :thumb: and  :cheers:

Looks like it is coming along nicely!

Keep up the excellent work.

:D

It is nice to see someone that doesn't ghetto-rig everything.  Great work!

Ok guys, latest pictures here :-)

My girlfriend helped me to put the engine back in the frame (not properly an easy job  :icon_confused:):
(http://images4.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-4//191/191421/339399/img_3809_1-or.jpg)

The mess of tubes around latest carburetor model:
(http://images6.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-6//191/191421/339399/img_3877_1-or.jpg)

And my girlfriend looking at them (this is the major satisfaction: her smile looking her future bike!):
(http://images4.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-4//191/191421/339399/img_3879_1-or.jpg)

And her revenge on me  O0:
(http://images4.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-4//191/191421/339399/img_3876_1-or.jpg)

Uhhh, finally I got the last part I was waiting for  :thumb::
(http://images2.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-2//191/191421/339399/img_3885_1-or.jpg)

Here when I closed the chain:
(http://images2.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-2//191/191421/339399/img_3886_1-or.jpg)

Uhm, I saw a problem when I was mounting the headlight... The thread of left plastic seat was completely gone, and the right seat was damaged:
(http://images5.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-5//191/191421/339399/img_3881_1-or.jpg)

The material of the headlamp is Polypropylene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polypropylene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polypropylene)), one of the worst material when it comes to glue it  :mad:
But it's a thermoplastic... So I operated in this way: I made the thread hole to traverse the plastic completely, then I found 2 "not rust-able" nuts, I heat them with a bunsen burner, and I melt them inside the plastic:
(http://images2.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-2//191/191421/339399/img_3884_1-or.jpg)
(http://images1.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-1//191/191421/339399/img_3883_1-or.jpg)

Then with a couple of new normal screws, I fixed the lamp to the frame :-))

After this it was a matter of hours to mount the new brake pads and fill the brake circuit, mount the swingarm and try to star the engine...
And I went into a problem  :cry:
It didn't want to start...
Well, here there's the explanation:
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=46805.0 (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=46805.0)

Take care guys, on some thread you can find WRONG instructions if you have a single pickup!:
(http://images1.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-1//191/191421/339399/SignalGenerator-or.jpg)

After re-timing the 2 camshafts, the engine started at the 2nd turn of the crankshaft  :D :D :D :thumb: :thumb:
Finally I did a carbs re-synch, and the bike was ready :)

And here the final results (with my other bike):
(http://images4.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-4//191/191421/339399/img_3891_1-or.jpg)
(http://images4.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-4//191/191421/339399/img_3892_1-or.jpg)
(http://images6.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-6//191/191421/339399/img_3893_1-or.jpg)
(http://images6.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-6//191/191421/339399/img_3896_1-or.jpg)
(http://images3.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-3//191/191421/339399/img_3895_1-or.jpg)

Considering that GS was going to be wrecked, I'm VERY VERY happy, and satisfied  :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Looks great, nice work. Love the TL too.

Great job! That's a new bike  :thumb:

Wow, very well done! Your bike is probably better now than it was new, inside and out. Nice trick with the headlight! Thanks again for all the great pictures. Next time I need to pull a cover off my engine, I'm going to look at your photos first to see what it is going to be like in there...

WOW, man.  Thats an AWESOME transformation!

You sir, are a true professional.  Bravo!  You must love your girlfriend very much.  Soon she will want you to fix everything in the kitchen and bathroom now that she knows how handy you are!

I was surprised to see all the rust that formed in only 3 years.   I live in Buffalo, New York.  People call this area the "Rust Belt" because it snows a lot and we use salt on the roads, causing cars to rust.  My bike is a 1994 and it's not that rusty.  Just a little here and there, not enough to tear it apart yet.  The air in Milan must be acidic!

GenTLe, had you already done to any motorbike all you did to the engine of this one? Are you a mechanic?

Thanks guys :-))
It has been a pleasure to share this with you :-)))

Alex

Quote from: boxin on March 10, 2009, 04:11:28 PM
GenTLe, had you already done to any motorbike all you did to the engine of this one? Are you a mechanic?

I'm an IT, sysadmin for CocaCola (Coke) in Italy ;)
The first engine I completely unassembled was a 50cc when I was 12yo (now I'm 34), then my mother's moped one year later, then my Malaguti Fifty (50cc) which I heavily modified bringing it to reach about 75mph, then my Honda NSR 125 2T, then garden tools engines (4T) and again a 2T, from a Cagiva 125 Mito.
Engines on which i worked (but without completely disassemble them) are a Moto Guzzi 350cc, my TL1000S engine, my Alfa 156 JTD engine, the Chevrolet matiz one (my mother's car), and my previous car, which was a Renault Clio sport.

Let's say that this was the first motorcycle 4T engine that I really complete unmount, but having the experience and the "way-to-work" taken from the others, it was quite easy :-)

It's just a matter of passion of do-thing-by-myself, I think, because my hobbies are all in the direction of "do not let anyone to touch (work on) my things"  :)

Ciao, Alex

Wondering if GenTLe is still around and still has the original pics of this thread. I could sure use them in my own project...

I just sent him a PM asking for the same info! If I get a response I'll let you know because I'm looking to do a similar teardown this winter and could definitely use his photos for reference.

What are you doing to your bike?

Alright, Plan B.

Does anyone want to tear apart their engine and post pics? I'll send you a beer if so!  :cheers:

Are you looking for disassembly pics or something in particular??  My engine is already tore down, in a big tupperware container.  Previous owner thought he should take it all apart for whatever reason.  I could take pics of what you need?

Just looking for some sort of reference material. I'll possibly be doing something similar to mine this winter and wanted at least to have a vague idea what it's going to look like used. I do have the Haynes manual which should be relatively helpful.