Hello Ladies & Gents,
I have recently come across a query which has left me quite confused. Currently being on my L's (motorbike), I'm booked to do my (full) motorbike licence test late January 2009.
As I have been driving for over 18yrs (full car licence) , I understand that upon successful completion of the motorbike licence test, I will not be required to display a 'P' plate, as I am automatically classified as a FULL Motorbike Licence holder... HOWEVER, for the first 12mths the obvious restrictions apply on no BAC level, and no pillion etc...
Now, to my question : What motorbike can I ride, after passing this test ?
This is what VICROADS advertises on their website :
Type of motorcycle licence that is issued
The type of motorcycle licence issued to you (Full or Probationary) will depend on the type of licence (if any) that you already hold.
* if you do not already hold a car licence, you will be issued with a probationary motorcycle licence which is valid for three years.
* if you already have a full car licence, you will be issued with a full motorcycle licence. However, all newly licensed riders, for the first 12 months, must have zero BAC, not carry a pillion passenger and have restrictions on the type of motrcycles that can be ridden. If your motorcycle licence was issued before 1 June 2008, you may ride any motorcycle not exceeding 260cc or any Learner approved motorcycle. If your motorcycle licence was issued on or after 1 June 2008 you may only ride any learner approved motorcycle. View the approved list of motorcycles for novice riders
* if you already have a probationary car licence, you will be issued with a probationary motorcycle licence as well. The probationary period will end at the same time as your probationary car licence.
Does this mean, that say I wish to upgrade from my GS500F to a GSX-R750, that I am NOT allowed to do so till after 1yr on full licence ? Please help, as this is rather absurd - I know HEAPS of guys in Sydney who are/were in my situation exactly and bought a bike OTHER than a Learner Approved bike (as per LAMS - which is recognised in VIC & NSW) straight after passing this full licence test... hmm... am I missing something here ???
All responses welcome.. For those who have been past this hurdle, your help is much welcome. For those approaching this level, as is my case, we all could benefit from input of those in the know.
Many thanks in advance & ride safe,
Nickers
Once you come of your learners, you get your restricted license. No 'P' plate in your case but you can only legally ride a LAMS bike for the first year. And even then, you will need to go into Motor Reg. Department (or what ever they call it in Vic.) and pay the fee to have your license changed over. Until you've got that receipt in your hands, your not legally allowed to ride anything bigger than a LAMS bike.
Once thats done, its goodbye GS and hello 750.
Thanks for the reply s4gs, rather interesting (and actually shattering reality), considering I already have my eye on a GSX-R750 K8 :cry:
But what still amazes me, a friend in Sydney, almost 1yr ago, bought himself a Gixxa 750 K7 straight after his full licence test - same age as me, same driving experience, same situation... there seemed to be no problem with him doing so.
So, is this a 'new' policy then, or is VIC and NSW different in their licencing policy ?
Might pay to give VICROADS a call and see what they say .... He seemed to say that he was faced with similar issues, but because of his age (34 at the time) no restrictions were placed on his licence...
Thanks again mate.
Anyone else from Victoria, who's dealt with VICROADS during similar circumstances as mine ? If you're out there, please offer any info - much appreciated.
Nickers
Licensing is different in NSW. In NSW if you are over 30 and have held an unrestricted car licence for 5 or more years you go straight to your 'unrestricted' bike licence but have a restriction of no pillion for 12 months.
Thanks sblack. Well then, it looks like it all makes sense...and that silly me should have booked my upcoming full licence test in Sydney, rather than Melbourne... then once completed, taken this full unrestricted NSW licence to VIC for conversion etc etc. It is so annoying how each state has such differences..forcing people to dodge the system in ways they wish to overcome the certain hurdles in place.
I'm 35, a responsible person (18yrs driving, 18yrs pilot, now flying BIG passenger airliner aircraft) but yet these rules still apply. Not after any recognition/special treatment but there are lots of us who are responsible out there, and it's the careless, stupid idiots who have brought the system to where it is today.
Looks like it's GS500F for another year :)
Cheers,
Nickers
Yeah, it'd be nice if it was more consistent between the states, same as for how LAMS works and what the Road Rules are. Seamed like a good idea when the federal government came up with the Australian Road Rules to make it more consistent between the states back in 98 was it? But they decided to leave it up to the individual states to work out it's implementation so we still have different rules in different states. Makes it confusing when travelling interstate.
Your situation could be worse though, imagine being in a non LAMS state and still stuck on a 250.
Too true sblack,
This raises another question : With my upcoming Licence Test in Melbourne at the start of Feb, do you know/have you heard of instances, where someone like myself went to Sydney instead to complete this test, obtaining a FULL Unrestricted Licence, then convert this in VIC ?
It's just frustrating, as you said, and if there are ways around it, then that is because of the stupidity of such differences in the first place.
I still have some time to plan to go to SYD (though I'll have to go to MVR and convert both my current VIC full car licence and VIC Learner licence to the NSW equivalent) to do what's necessary.
Is this achievable ?
Or would there be 'other' hurdles once VIC ROADS 'discovers' what was done, which would be quite obvious, being licenced in Melbourne for some time previously.
The wheels of the cogs keep turning.....
Thanks for all your input,
Nickers
I don't know of anyone doing it with a bike licence. It may work although you would have to change your residence to NSW and then back to Victoria to do it. The big question would be if and how the 12 month pillion restriction would show up when you go to transfer back to Vic. If it came up on the system then they could turn around and say their equivalent is the licence you'd be getting just staying and doing the test there. Of course if you stayed as a NSW resident for the year that would cease to be an issue.
As I said I don't know of anyone doing it with a bike license but I do have a friend who did similar with a car licence. He was on a NSW P1 licence but eligible to do the test and upgrade to a P2 when he moved to QLD. This was a few years ago and at that time QLD didn't have P2 so when he went to transfer his licence and upgrade to a P2 they just put him straight to a full licence. 6 months later he moved back to NSW and when he transferred his licence back it stayed as a full licence, bypassing the 2 year P2 period.
Thanks sblack,
It would seem easier to just sit tight on the VIC licence, even if it means riding a LAMS bike for the next 12mths. However, I'm determined to get to the bottom of this. I have just read the requirements of the NSW licencing policy (rta website), and it seems to make so much more sense than the silly rules that VICROADS has in place. Why not adopt the age criteria (ie, above 30) in VIC also, as is standard practice in NSW ? Beats me.
I will endeavour to call RTA over the next few days to ask them whether a VIC learner's permit can be recognised (once converted to a NSW equivalent) without having to sit another Pre-Learner's course in NSW. The GOOD thing I like about NSW also is that there is no minimum 3 months wait between L's and P's tests... that too makes soooo much more sense. If a person is competent enough to pass his P's test, even if he did it the next day, then he'll be as competent as he will ever be to ride on the roads..if not, it'll show in the test and won't subsequently pass... they make riding a bike like being a rocket scientist. Most of the time, it's NOT inability that gets people killed on the roads (the testing authorities sort this out by either giving you a licence or not) - it's the brain (ie level of risk-taking, stupidity, lack of discipline etc) that's carrying the rider, experienced or not.
I really want this GSX-R750, and if I wasn't ready to own one, I'd be settling quietly in a corner. However, being comfortable to do so, and with silly rules in place, I will look into this and hopefully produce a successful outcome. If it indeed is, be sure that I'll post a specific forum topic for all going through this process, present and future.
Cheers,
Nickers
No problems with the Vic Ls. All info is at http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/licensing/newtonsw/interstate_riders.html
Just read the website - thanks for providing that.
Mate, why do these people make these things so blooody damn complicated ?! Again, the motion toward becoming a rocket scientist.
After reading the applicable page/s it seems I can apply for a NSW Provisional (P1) Licence, after of course providing necessary proof of identity, residential address etc etc. But I HAVE to book with the RTA to do my Motorcycle Operator Skills Test with them.... and IF passed I'll be issued with a Provisional Licence (P1)..... is this where full licence would be issued to me, being over 30 yrs of age ? They don't exactly spell that out clearly in that section.
Also, looking on the flip side, if this Provisional Test isn't passed, I'd have no option but to be issued with a NSW Learner Licence ! Would they give you another chance to sit this, like other schools do ? They certainly have a way of making things difficult.
I will definitely call the RTA soon and discuss this with them. My main query is that if I go through all this crap, strategically changing address, providing proof of identity to be issued a NSW licence, going through with the MOST and issued with a full licence, to then return to VIC and STILL be issued with a full licence but with the previously stated restrictions on size of bike, then it defeats the whole purpose of going to NSW in the first place... aaarrgh !
Thanks again for all your help sblack..very informative, and it has certainly given me a heads up of what's to come, BEFORE finding out the hard way, OR being succumbed into riding a non-LAMS approved bike for that 1yr (which I know more and more people are doing these days). I want to do things the RIGHT way, however right 'right' is, these days :thumb:
Cheers and safe riding,
Nickers
You need patience young grasshopper.
You seem to be going this like a bull at a gate and just because YOU may think that your a competent rider doesn't mean that you are.
The idea behind LAMS is so new riders coming of their learners dont jump into high powered sports bikes and then proceed to wrap them selfs around a tree. In a year from now you will look back and realize how inexperienced and naive you really where.
There's a reason why the general public calls us 'Temporary Australians'. I would hate for you to prove them right.
No worries, glad to help.
Yeah, the mature age licence is when you go in to get the P1 licence. You have to do the pre-provisional training and the MOST test. If you fail the test you have to pay for and do the test again but you don't need to redo the training.
The issue with what you get when transferring back to Vic is the main concern. If you move to NSW you qualify as a mature age rider, how they see that when transferring to a Vic licence isn't as clear. I know that the licence itself has nothing printed on it to indicate it is anything other than a normal full licence but how it shows up on the computer system I have no idea.
s4gs,
Whilst I thank you again for your reply, I have to humbly disagree with you on a few points and clarify a few things.
First and foremost, I am NOT rushing into anything. Secondly, I would NOT be considering the upgrade unless I felt comfortable. Thirdly, I do NOT consider myself a pro at riding, by any means, and though new on L's, I have been riding for over 10yrs.. again, this does NOT make me any better than another rider. In fact, this makes me want to ride more carefully ! To further reiterate my point, I am an educated Aerospace Engineer, and an Airline Pilot, with over 18yrs flying experience. I was fortunate to be flying aircraft before having a Driver Learner Licence ! How many riders on the roads have had this 'extra-curricular' experience ? From flying 6 yrs in the Australian Outback(yes, ALL over to tiny dirt airstrips), to Australian Regional Airlines, to now a Major International Airline,flying VERY heavy jet machinery, I still don't believe 'I am the greatest in the world at what I do' , (though others may think so)..as I believe there is always room for improvement, for any individual to strive to be the best, safest, most efficient in whatever they choose to accomplish. And yes, I realise aircraft are not motorbikes, but this is all about the 'attitude'. If you'd like me to talk about some of the experiences I've had in life, I'd be very happy to so, but I know I'd bore you, especially in a motorcycle riding forum.
The ONLY reason why I mention the above, is because discipline is the key word ! It's in the brain - sure, ability is a key player when riding/driving on roads but does this mean that even a guy with 15yrs experience (in whatever) cannot be involved in an accident ? Does this mean that I, a very experienced airline pilot cannot be involved in an incident/accident ? You're VERY wrong if you think I'm not prone. I do realise and concentrate on the fact that, according to statistics, Learners are more prone to be involved in an incident/accident early on, but if we consider the dangers of riding on roads, this makes ALL of us 'learners' to some degree, doesn't it ??? For someone to think otherwise, would be the number one ingredient towards complacency...
Whilst I am extremely patient, professional, and VERY methodical at what I do, at work/outside of work, I thank you for your input, but I, above anyone else, know my own abilities. In case this topic, from the beginning, seemed irrational to you, this is more about discovering the differences in the policies, rather than "going this like a bull at a gate ", as you mention. Part of my life is studying, and LOTS of it. So for me to find a 'loop hole' in the system naturally sparks an interest to learn more. Again, I don't blame the average guy for not having this interest to want to do so.
Please allow me to share an experience with you : I was almost 'cleaned up' during my first week on my L's (4 months ago), due to a driver suddenly pulling out of a narrow street blanketed by parked cars, on a narrow busy road.. I am very glad that I am here today to be typing this, but had I panicked, yes, the outcome would have been much different. As I could almost foresee what was about to happen, I slowed down and then when he DID actually pull out, I applied all the things I have been taught (Learner rider training, COMMON SENSE AND disciplined training in life till this point) And yes, I was lucky - I walked away playing back the event in my mind, wondering how I could have done things differently.
Striving to ride a bigger bike, again NOT due to rushing is a personal thing. I am subjected to regular vigorous tests, be it in flight, regular simulator checks to ensure I get YOU safely from one city/country to another, or rigorous medical check ups and believe me, riding a motorbike IS 'child's play'. But again, I do NOT tackle my riding with this attitude - I'll regularly visit parking lots, rehearse through my emergency drills, braking, cornering etc etc..with the same professionalism and attention to detail that I would employ during major aircraft emergency drill. So, I know when I am ready for something, and moreso IF I can handle it, even though, again, it is handled methodically, carefully and all within the boundaries of MY limitations, of which I strive to constantly improve/discover...safely ! I may be new to riding (and this is the attitude I will continue to have, even after 20+ yrs of doing so), but I have other attributes, through my background, that others DON'T have. I am NOT your 'stock-standard' learner, even though, as you can read above, I still remain humble and treat myself as one.
I believe we're all naive.. naive at what awaits us around the corner, naive at thinking we know it all (especially as we get more experienced - complacency)..etc etc. Being naive is not necessarily about being incompetent - besides, this should make one more careful, cautious and situationally aware of what's around them..if they want to live, that is ! Being naive is being RECKLESS, doing stupid things, NOT thinking through ones actions before committing them. Through ongoing experiences and discipline/training does one improve his/her own abilities. But if we look back to our younger years, of course we will be naive ! ALL OF US.
Again, thanks for your input. I would hate ANYONE to be involved in any type of incident/accident (and yes, I have lost many friends over the years).. In this regard, you are NOT talking to a 'newbie'. With my career being so fragile, competitive, challenging etc - do you think I'd WANT to do throw it all away by doing something stupid- on a bike, of all things ??? Think this one through.
Merry Christmas to you,
Nickers
Yeah....right. If thats what floats your boat mate...