okay so i could never find them so ill post up a couple!!!
here's my 92 GS with ~26000 miles drilled out the pipe and had WAY oversized jets and a uni drop in:
(i also beat the living POOP out of this bike, also my bike stuttered a bit on the dyno... so the powerband is very rough)
thats 33.61HP and 23.06 TQ
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u316/starshooter10/1990%20GS500/IMG_0029.jpg)
here's a 07 GS500F (with 500 miles)
ridden NICE
peak was 36.19HP and 24.44 TQ
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u316/starshooter10/1990%20GS500/IMG_0030.jpg)
*Keywords so you fools can use SEARCH!!!!*
*GS 500 500F 500F GS500 GS500E GS500F*
all done =-P
cool. looks like the 3 circuit carbs are a good deal smoother to ride- assuming the later bike wasn't molested to achieve that nice, smooth curve.
were you changing gears at the beginning on your bikes' run, or was it just that rough ?
thanks for the graphs ! :)
Here's dyno curves for Annie's GS (forum founder John's wife) which is linked off gstwins.com front page. It has V&H exhaust, carb jetting, and K&N filter changes:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/jcp8832/AnniesGS500dynoRun.jpg)
Here's dyno curves for a friend's 02 GS500 which he had jetted for winter use, no other mods:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/jcp8832/MikesGS500dynoRuns.jpg)
It has power peak at 8500 rpm where mag test reports always show it in road tests. Your peak looks a bit lower than this. I saved a small one from a mag EX/GS comparo test that looks same with peak hp @ 8500 if you can read it:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/jcp8832/GSvEXfromMCmag.jpg)
Curves show how Annie's modified GS has power extended beyond 9k rpm with about 3-4 additional hp over stock. Not much sense in revving a stock GS beyond 9-9.5K unless you want to just pump out a lot of extra oil after you get some miles on it. :icon_lol: :icon_lol:
yeah i've learn that the sweet spot seems to be from 7 to about 8.5 or 9
i rarlwy reved over that make (unless i was hotrodding in a turn... then im reluctant to shift)
but even then i would go past 11k
Quote from: starshooter10 on January 07, 2009, 09:24:55 AM
but even then i would go past 11k
That is why your engine destroyed itself.
Quote from: cosmiccharlie on January 07, 2009, 10:07:19 AM
Quote from: starshooter10 on January 07, 2009, 09:24:55 AM
but even then i would go past 11k
That is why your engine destroyed itself.
+1, valves float a little past 10k and max power is at around 9.5k so there isn't really a reason to run past 10k.
Valve float and piston valve contact is very unlikely. It will make a horrible noise and not lose power and start to die, it will lose power and make noise and die spectacularly in 1 instant.
I have another theory.
You may have had wall lubrication washed off by the overly rich gasoline in flow. Wall to piston seize can happen slower, a little as it gets more heat from lack of oil on the wall.
Cool.
Buddha.
err
i wouldnt rev to 11...
though going to 10 wasnt something that never happened...
though it did happen...
and budda your probally right as it was about time for an oil change... and it was RICH
gas = solvent =-(
heres one
only mod was a drilled exhaust.
(http://sites.google.com/site/aaronjosephwar/_/rsrc/1218597273619/Home/gs500/-modifications/--drilled-exhaust---6182008/dyno2.jpg?height=540&width=840)
(http://75.180.27.125:50001/Dyno%20Graphs%20and%20Pictures./Motorcycle%20Dyno%20Graphs/Chris%20Morales.JPG)
Here's the dyno for my 07 GS500F with 2000 miles on the odo. the only things done to it are PAIR system removed, NGK iridium plugs, and castrol rs r4 rt full synthetic 5w-40 motorcycle oil. the graph doesnt show the afr numbers (pink line) but it was around 13:1, super lean.
What's the most you can get out of a GS when you throw some money at them? Just curious.
.
Quote from: trx440r on April 12, 2009, 07:34:53 PM
What's the most you can get out of a GS when you throw some money at them? Just curious.
.
Probably about 39.4 horsepower...
Just a note for those who don't know already
Dynos are not all the same, especially between different manufacturers, and more so between dyno types (inertia dynos, brake dynos, etc)
Quote from: fred on April 12, 2009, 07:39:47 PM
Quote from: trx440r on April 12, 2009, 07:34:53 PM
What's the most you can get out of a GS when you throw some money at them? Just curious.
.
Probably about 39.4 horsepower...
Are there no larger or higher compression pistons available? Stroker kits? Anybody run FCR 35's?
I got 52hp at the wheels with a 400ex quad that was massaged to 465cc. Certainly You can 60+ out of a GS.
That being said, I am going to do a stock spec valve job on mine and new pistons, then leave it alone.
.
QuotePAIR system removed
Can you elaoborate on this mod? what gains are there, I haven't heard of it.... thnx
Quote from: tulebox on April 13, 2009, 06:14:28 AM
QuotePAIR system removed
Can you elaoborate on this mod? what gains are there, I haven't heard of it.... thnx
You just lose some weight. :D
The system injects air in the exhaust ports, making the gases burn better.
Aha. Thanx, Lamoun.
If you read David Johnson's "Racer's Corner" he goes into what it takes to get more power from a GS. The short answer is pipes, jets, and no airbox gets you a few more HP. If you want to get into the 50's it takes advancing the timing, racing cams, porting, polishing, and milling. You can't get 60 HP out of a GS 500 unless you spend what Dave calls "a Subaru".
Quote from: lamoun on April 13, 2009, 07:52:58 AM
Quote from: tulebox on April 13, 2009, 06:14:28 AM
QuotePAIR system removed
Can you elaoborate on this mod? what gains are there, I haven't heard of it.... thnx
You just lose some weight. :D
The system injects air in the exhaust ports, making the gases burn better.
The system injects air into the exhaust to burn more hydrocarbons as they go out the tail pipe. It is for emissions. I can't imagine that the weight savings is really worth anything on the GS though. If you want your bike to weigh less, start exercising. You are the single heaviest component of the bike and, if you live in America, there is a 65.5% chance that you are overweight...
I removed the PAIR system for two reasons. First because Im 6' tall 170 lbs with 8% body fat so I cant really lose any weight, so dropping weight from the bike is obvious (Im also doing A V&H which is significantly lighter). And second, I work at INTENSE Racing modifying cars all day, I HATE superfluous stuff that can only hurt performance. If somthing is free, easy, and can only help why not do it? I know it's not much and probably not noticeable but I now have peace of mind, STOCK really does keep me up at night. Seriously.
Also, I forgot to mention that just after the dyno I topped out the bike at 114mph on a dead straight, flat road in new albany ohio. Not super fast (Ive taken my car 140+), but scary on a bike. Then my friend passed me going 150 or so on his 636. Fun day 8)
Quote from: black and silver twin on April 13, 2009, 09:04:52 PM
STOCK really does keep me up at night. Seriously.
At least I'm not the only one.
Quote from: trx440r on April 12, 2009, 07:34:53 PM
What's the most you can get out of a GS when you throw some money at them? Just curious.
.
My guesses are based on the many dynos Ive studied with various mods. V&H, lunchbox, correct jetting, and proper maintenance on a healthy engine should give about 45-50whp or 60-70hp at the engine. more would require over bore, porting, cams, larger carbs, boost, or nitrous.
Quote from: black and silver twin on April 13, 2009, 09:59:14 PM
Quote from: trx440r on April 12, 2009, 07:34:53 PM
What's the most you can get out of a GS when you throw some money at them? Just curious.
.
My guesses are based on the many dynos Ive studied with various mods. V&H, lunchbox, correct jetting, and proper maintenance on a healthy engine should give about 45-50whp or 60-70hp at the engine. more would require over bore, porting, cams, larger carbs, boost, or nitrous.
it would be a whole lot easier to craigslist the gs, and buy a second hand gsx-r. not to mention the tons of upgrades you'd be getting for (almost) free in the process.
quite a few people have commented about the gs's handling being what they miss when they upgrade to faster bikes. our landlord commented something similar a few weeks ago. he had a V-max after his gs, and loved the power, but hated the handling. said the gs was the most fun he ever had on two wheels.
:)
it would be a whole lot easier to craigslist the gs, and buy a second hand gsx-r. not to mention the tons of upgrades you'd be getting for (almost) free in the process.
quite a few people have commented about the gs's handling being what they miss when they upgrade to faster bikes. our landlord commented something similar a few weeks ago. he had a V-max after his gs, and loved the power, but hated the handling. said the gs was the most fun he ever had on two wheels.
:)
[/quote]
I wholeheartedly agree but I dont want to die at 200+, thats why I keep the gs. I modify the gs mostly for fun but also because
Quote from: black and silver twin on April 13, 2009, 09:04:52 PM
STOCK really does keep me up at night. Seriously.
Don't get me wrong. I don't want a 60hp GS. I want it as close to stock as possible. I want something that gives me great mpg's and is reliable. I was just curious what the limits were if you wanted to push the platform.
.
so what is the restriction for power on a GS? Exhaust? Intake? Is it inside the head?
From what Ive read on here its the flow of the head, only two valves, and the exhaust side is weak also, and the headers come out a a 90' angle interrupts the flow.
I just installed my V&H full exhaust, K&N lunch box, 20-62.5-147.5 jets, and +2* custom ignition advance. :cheers: it definitely feels way more responsive and slightly more powerful (less than I expected :dunno_black: but faster none-the-less). but the truth will be told this saturday when I hit up the dyno again! :woohoo: I kinda think its running a tad rich, which is fine, the dyno will tell me the AFR. just to rehash; my stock dyno was 39whp with a 13:1 AFR. I initialy advanced the ignition 6* and the bike lost a TON of power, so I took it back to +1* and it was better than stock so i then put it at +2* and left it because i couldnt tell any difference between 1 and 2 *. BUT I was getting a slight amount of spark knock but that is cured using 89 octane (midgrade). I am going to toggle the timing a bit at the dyno to get the most power and will report back with the results. by the way I am using the same dyno at the same shop operated by the same guy to eliminate as much variation as possible. I can't wait!!!
P.S. a couple days before the install i put on a 15t front sprocket and I will say it made at least as much of an acceleration difference as all the above mods COMBINED
P.P.S. I forgot to mention the V&H is Crazy loud :police:(think NHRA dragster) using more than 1/2 throttle, below that its relatively civilized. I freekin LOVE the sound! :icon_twisted:
nice to see someone taking the time to do this right and check the AFR before and after and all, I'm interested to see your results :thumb:
Spark advance is perceived to be good, but is undesirable.
What is desired is a fuel with high knock resistance and that burns fast to get peak pressure when teh piston is at top dead center. And no pressure before that. But fuel takes time to burn, so the spark is triggered before the piston reaches top dead center. So the last bit of upward piston travel is not just compressing air and fuel, a now slightly burning air-fuel mix.
It seems modern lower "octane" (octane equivalence rating or anti-knock index) fuel burn a bit faster than ones with higher "octane" (octane is an actual chemical). So you will often make more power on a stock bike with 87 than with 93.
If your bike has the knock margin, you might make more high end power with slightly retarded timing and fast burning fuel. Like 87. I know you will make more power with 10% tolulene and retarded timing. It burns quickly and also raises the octane equivalence number/ antiknock index.
I have dyno runs with 7% more power (on a car) at 10% tolulene. But it is allegedly quite nasty stuff.
Quote from: black and silver twin on June 23, 2009, 10:32:09 PM
I just installed my V&H full exhaust, K&N lunch box, 20-62.5-147.5 jets, and +2* custom ignition advance. :cheers: it definitely feels way more responsive and slightly more powerful (less than I expected :dunno_black: but faster none-the-less). but the truth will be told this saturday when I hit up the dyno again! :woohoo: I kinda think its running a tad rich, which is fine, the dyno will tell me the AFR. just to rehash; my stock dyno was 39whp with a 13:1 AFR. I initialy advanced the ignition 6* and the bike lost a TON of power, so I took it back to +1* and it was better than stock so i then put it at +2* and left it because i couldnt tell any difference between 1 and 2 *. BUT I was getting a slight amount of spark knock but that is cured using 89 octane (midgrade). I am going to toggle the timing a bit at the dyno to get the most power and will report back with the results. by the way I am using the same dyno at the same shop operated by the same guy to eliminate as much variation as possible. I can't wait!!!
P.S. a couple days before the install i put on a 15t front sprocket and I will say it made at least as much of an acceleration difference as all the above mods COMBINED
P.P.S. I forgot to mention the V&H is Crazy loud :police:(think NHRA dragster) using more than 1/2 throttle, below that its relatively civilized. I freekin LOVE the sound! :icon_twisted:
Dont forget about the rear tyre :nono:
Quote from: black and silver twin on June 23, 2009, 10:32:09 PM
I just installed my V&H full exhaust, K&N lunch box, 20-62.5-147.5 jets, and +2* custom ignition advance. :cheers: it definitely feels way more responsive and slightly more powerful (less than I expected :dunno_black: but faster none-the-less). but the truth will be told this saturday when I hit up the dyno again! :woohoo: I kinda think its running a tad rich, which is fine, the dyno will tell me the AFR. just to rehash; my stock dyno was 39whp with a 13:1 AFR. I initialy advanced the ignition 6* and the bike lost a TON of power, so I took it back to +1* and it was better than stock so i then put it at +2* and left it because i couldnt tell any difference between 1 and 2 *. BUT I was getting a slight amount of spark knock but that is cured using 89 octane (midgrade). I am going to toggle the timing a bit at the dyno to get the most power and will report back with the results. by the way I am using the same dyno at the same shop operated by the same guy to eliminate as much variation as possible. I can't wait!!!
P.S. a couple days before the install i put on a 15t front sprocket and I will say it made at least as much of an acceleration difference as all the above mods COMBINED
P.P.S. I forgot to mention the V&H is Crazy loud :police:(think NHRA dragster) using more than 1/2 throttle, below that its relatively civilized. I freekin LOVE the sound! :icon_twisted:
o.k. so im back from the dyno and am reporting back just as promised :thumb: I went in to the dyno with the above stuff expecting to be really close on AFR and just dial in the timing. but things went the other way. the first pull was 41whp with a 15:1 afr! It was so lean i imediately went and bought more jets before i did any more pulls. I went up to a 152.5 main and put 1 washer under the needles for a total of 1 washer per carb. the next run was better around13:1 afr so i put in the biggest jets i had, 155s. this brought it down to 12.5 - 13:1, not perfect but close for an N/A tune. with 20 pilots, 62.5 mids, 155 mains, 1 washer, and 4 turns out of the idle mix screw she made a whopping 42 whp and 25lb-ft :icon_rolleyes: next i played with the timing which took 5 runs. the GS loves timing as i ended up with +6* and was still gaining power! i just ran out of adjustment! with all this done i made 44whp and 27lb/ft. all of the above tuning was done with mid-grade gas because I didnt want to hurt anything advancing the timing. all-in-all it took 10 runs on the dyno; 3 rejets, 5 timing adjustments, 1 base line, and 1 finishing run but my little GS was never fazed. there were only two surprises: 1 there is a very rich spot at 4400 rpm where it goes down to 11:1 afr then back up immediately after, this happened on every run except for when i dynoed it stock a few months ago :dunno_black: 2 the power peak stock was 9300 rpm, with all this done its now peaking at 10000! and i have over 40whp from 9000 to 10500. the peak numbers dont do my GS justice because the powerband is so flat across the rpm range she feels like a missile (for a 500..er..487) I think my next steps are to put another washer on each needle or larger main jets then build more adjustment into the timing and keep tuning until i max something else out.
P.S. I will put a copy of the dyno sheets up as soon as I figure out how to work this darned copy/fax/printer thing at work! >:(
That's really excellent info. The highest suggested main jet we have listed on the wiki is 150 and you found that to still be too lean! Was the air temp fairly low at the dyno? Low altitude where you are? I'm just wondering how we all ended up thinking 150 was enough for just about anything. I just put 142.5 in with just a K&N, thinking that was erring on the side of rich, and while it runs good.... the plugs still indicate a bit lean, so I wonder.
Just a thought, wouldn't an extra washer just make it even more rich at 4k? Seems like if anything you'd want to take the washer you have in there out and maybe try the next step up main. Though the main sounds right, isn't 12.5-13 perfect?
way to stick with it.... sounds like an expensive dyno day! :o
Quote from: intergalactic on June 24, 2009, 07:32:07 AMSpark advance is perceived to be good, but is undesirable.
Maybe I'm missing something. But this doesn't seem right to me. Why, if advanced timing and running higher octane fuel to deal with it, is "undesirable", do performance cars require high octane to deal with their advanced timing? Why do racers do the same thing? Advance the timing, run 110 octane. And here, again, we have someone that just found another couple HP (5+%) through advancing the timing. I thought it was pretty widely accepted, it makes more power. :dunno_white: And let's forget about tolulene for the moment, that's a different discussion and no-one's going to bother with that for a street vehicle.
very very nice info, how much the runs cost ya? how long on the dyno, my local dyno charges by the hour.
Higher 'octane' is required to resist preignition.
Timing advance is implemented to deal with the fact that it takes fuel time to burn.
Most pump fuels with higher 'octane' burn more slowly.
So adding timing is generally done to deal with the slower burning fuel required for higher compression engines or those with poor combustion chamber design.
He likely made more power by adding timing because he was using slower burning fuel than stock. Mid grade. With stock fuel he might have had the power there and lost it with timing advance. Similarly if he ran premium, he might have needed even more advance.
It is possible he make the few percent more peak power by pushing the power higher in the powerband. The stock ignition curve might be underadvanced near redline to discourage over-revving. In which case, then this mod does get you those 2 hp up high.
The only way to know is if he re-ran the dyno runs with 87 octane and stock timing and the same jetting, as there isn't enough information to really know. He is running in a nice rich zone for power now, so the back to back tests wouldn't require jetting.
Either way, nice dyno info.
Quote from: intergalactic on June 24, 2009, 07:32:07 AMSpark advance is perceived to be good, but is undesirable.
Maybe I'm missing something. But this doesn't seem right to me. Why, if advanced timing and running higher octane fuel to deal with it, is "undesirable", do performance cars require high octane to deal with their advanced timing? Why do racers do the same thing? Advance the timing, run 110 octane. And here, again, we have someone that just found another couple HP (5+%) through advancing the timing. I thought it was pretty widely accepted, it makes more power. :dunno_white: And let's forget about tolulene for the moment, that's a different discussion and no-one's going to bother with that for a street vehicle.
[/quote]
Advancing timing isn't undesirable, but it has practical limits. If you advance it too much the fuel will burn while the pistons are still rising, and will destroy them if left that way. Advancing timing also reduces midrange power. If you want an engine with lots of top end and you don't care about midrange power, advancing timing is the cheapest and best way to do it.
High compression (among other things) can cause pre-ignition, requiring high octane fuel, but I don't think high octane fuel burns slower. Its higher flash point causes it to begin burning later when you'd be into a pre-ignition condition otherwise, but I think the time it takes to burn is the same assuming the F/A mixture is correct. Once the plug fires, the fuel will begin burning no matter what the octane rating is because the spark temperature exceeds any gasoline's flash point.
That is very good (and expensive) info! I wanna see your last dyno curve! I'd also be interested to know after all this how bad a hit your mpg takes.
Your data backs-up much of what I've read here over the past year. You spent a large fraction of what the bike's worth and picked-up 5 HP. You did a good job! Previous estimates have mostly been 3-4. I hope you guys get a lot of enjoyment out of tinkering. Otherwise the 500 Ninja makes more sense, giving 60 ponies and 50+ mpg out of the box. I'm reluctant to do what you've done because I don't want to end-up with a gas-guzzling 500.
Quotesounds like an expensive dyno day! Shocked
The dyno time was very cheap (for me because I work at INTENSE Racing and have access to a dyno) but normally 10 runs over the course of 4 hours is real expensive.
QuoteJust a thought, wouldn't an extra washer just make it even more rich at 4k? Seems like if anything you'd want to take the washer you have in there out and maybe try the next step up main. Though the main sounds right, isn't 12.5-13 perfect?
there was a large dip in the AFR with or with-out the washer, it just made it happen sooner. and normally 12.8:1 is perfect for most N/A vehicles but the GS made the most power at 13.5:1! I just wasnt comfortable with that considering I cruise at 90-120mph for extended periods :police: and my dyno guy said it might pop a piston at that afr for long. I actually
LOST a little over 1 whp for safety's sake. but the extra fuel did help give another 1/2 ft/lb and MUCH better throttle response (read "INSTANTANEOUS throttle response")
QuoteYour data backs-up much of what I've read here over the past year. You spent a large fraction of what the bike's worth and picked-up 5 HP. You did a good job! Previous estimates have mostly been 3-4. I hope you guys get a lot of enjoyment out of tinkering. Otherwise the 500 Ninja makes more sense, giving 60 ponies and 50+ mpg out of the box. I'm reluctant to do what you've done because I don't want to end-up with a gas-guzzling 500.
I spent $360
including shipping on all the power parts and gained 13% power, that sounds like a good deal to me. and as far as MPG goes I was getting ~62MPG average mileage stock, ~65mpg with 15t front sprocket (yes it got better gas mileage and 6 mph higher top speed)(and yes it originally had 16t sprocket, I counted ;)) But I have yet to do any calculations with the current set up. my guess is it will be slightly worse but not much. it seriously takes less than 1/4 throttle to maintain 60mph and almost no throttle just going around town. I can now go from a stop at 1700 rpm and not bog and still out-accelerate all the cars around me while shifting at 3300~3400. I think the new found efficiency will offset most of the additional fuel in normal driving, though not completely im sure. but under heavy throttle ive increased consumption by 20% so high speed 90mph+ will definitely get worse mpg.
My point is for less than $400 dollars you can take a ...cough...cough... "conservatively" powered bike, add 13% power, change the gearing slightly and completely change the feel of the bike. while still getting great mpg.
P.S.Im actually scared to do a wheelie now because there is so much more power down low, I think it might flip!
P.P.S.
QuoteI hope you guys get a lot of enjoyment out of tinkering.
That is at least 50% of the reason I own a motorcycle AND a car that have solid flat tappet cams. Mmm... adjusting valve lash, FUN :cookoo:
Heres the result for my 2005 GS500F, just back from the workshop. K&N Lunchbox, rejet, and stock muffler has been replaced with a Biltwell Cannon (short and loud, though probably not as optimal for performance as a V&H). Note the "before run on this was done with the new filter and muffler fitted but before the rejet, so the gain is probably slighty larger than what you see here.
[attachment deleted by admin]
OMG your bike has negative HP!
Photos upside down...brain hurts....can't read....blacking out.... :)
Yeah sorry dunno why it did that, it appears the right way up on my computer but displays upside down when I upload it and I can;t dit the uploaded file for some reason, dammit.
Hahaha yeah, I've had that happen on other forums for some reason.
I was just felling silly this morning, ignore me.
In fact, that's probably good advice for pretty much any time, not just Monday mornings.... :embarrassed:
Here ya go SpaceMonkey, grab this off my server and then I will delete it.
[IMG]www.*poof*[img]
Cheers mate, just chucked it up on imgur so you can delete away.
(http://i.imgur.com/PFeDmgB.jpg)