I've had my eye on two firearms of completely different creed and I'm torn between which one to settle on. The first is the Remington 870 tactical with pistol grip stock and 18" barrel. The other is a Glock 22. Not sure whether I want fixed or adjustable sights on that yet. Both have pro's and con's. I want the shotty for home defense. Same with the Glock but I planned on getting a coneal and carry permit for that a little down the road. Any input?
I was at the same trouble a while ago. For me it was a choice between a 870 and Hi-Point .45 I took the .45 but I'll get an 870 here soon enough. Great shotgun especially if you get a rifled barrell for slugs. Ooooh Yeah! Aside from the .45 I have a
Ruger Mini-14 (.223/5.56)
1946 Izhevsk Mosin Nagant M44 (7.62x54R)
Ruger 10/22 (.22LR)
I'd go with the 870 for the following reasons:
1. Home defense seems to be your primary mission.
2. If you ever need to leave home armed, shotgun will be most versatile.
4. Nothing says "Don't F**k with me" better then a shotgun in a tactical sling when walking in public.
3. You can get the Glock down the road when you get your CCP.
JMHO - Porkchop
+1 on the 870 - excellent for home defense.
If your were going to get a .40 for CC I would look at something smaller than the G22, like a G23, G27, Springfield XD40 subcompact, etc etc. Standard or tactical size frames are too difficult to conceal on your person IMO.
Get the Glock, pistol grips belong on pistols, and shotties need 00buck or slugs to be effective against a bad guy, bird shot is for birds and that's the only thing you're gonne be shooting in a pistol grip shotgun. Been there and tried that.
Check out the box o truth if you don't believe me about shotgun loads. I would give you a link but work blocks gun sites just google it.
First line of defense in my home when things go bump in the night is my Ar15 with a weapon mounted 225 lumens tac light, 30 round magazines insure sufficent volume of fire to neautralize a home invasion issue.
Next line of defense is my pistol, 8 round magazine capacity in a 1911 but multiple magazines available insure rapid reload capability.
The shotty would be my last choice for home defense and it damn sure would'nt have a pistol grip.
YMMV
Shotgun with centurion defense ammo. Its got a .65 cal ball followed by 6 balls of 00 buckshot. The best ammo I've seen for close quarter use. Also, get the 870 because if its for home defense, as stated above it'll be better than a handgun any day of the week. Just go to Big5 and grab the 870 standard with the bird barrel and the 18.5" home defense barrel. It'll take 3 1/2 magnum loads and its a beefy gun. Either that or a mossberg 500/590 for practicality or versatility. Get a handgun down the road and do it fast if you live in California because after 2010 they're making some garbage laws come into play.
Another voter for the 870 and another suggestion to lose the pistol grip. If your not a believer the first time you shoot a )) buck load in it or really try to actually hit something with it you will become a believer. A shot gun still needs to be aimed to be effective and you can't aim a shotgun with a pistol grip. If you can get one of the suggested guns with 2 barrels that is the ticket. A 18 or 20 with rifle sights and a 28" with screw in chokes chokes is the stuff. You can have a home defence gun, a gun for any fowl that flies, a gun for small game and a gun that will take any big game in North America if the shots are under 100 yards. Even further if you pratice and buy the right slugs. The 12 gauge shot gun is truely the most versital fire arm there is.
id go fo rhte shotty tbh, especialy if you can afford or justify both, then the .45 however if it were one or the other, id get the .45. recently ive been eyeing a tommy gun. local shop has 4 of them
Do what Betty says.......don't get that damn 12 with a pistol grip. Maybe you could "borrow one" and try it out at the range before making your decision. I venture to say that with 00 Buck in 2 and 3/4, you ain't gonna wanna shoot it much at all. Remember, hopefully you will be "getting older". You will not like that kind of punishment when you age a bit. Get a full stock if you have to have it.
I have an Ithaca model 37 featherlight in 12 gauge with no recoil pad. It is punishing. I can't even imagine a day at the range with a pistol grip on it.
Hell I was young and fit, 18" Mossberg pistol grip with stock forend and damn near broke my wrist. Even with a pistol grip pump forend your time on target recovery is just too damn slow. Reload times suck too and I think someone else mentioned yes you have to aim just ponting a shotty in the general direction and pulling the trigger does not work. I think the 870 has a load fork adapter designed to allow you to chamber Aquila mini slugs, that allows you to carry 2 extra in the tube. Theres no such thing as enough magazine capacity when your fighting for your life.
yeah the shotgun will not be very functional with 00 buck shot and an pistol grip. A full stock is much more user friendly when not shooting at birds or skeet. It is also hard to beat a shotgun as a home defense weapon, I will be getting one soonish for home and hunting. Until then my Ruger will do just fine :icon_lol:
Hehe you guys make me laugh.
But anyways in the REAL world. Lets be practical. For home defense the bigger the gun the better. Your aim is not to kill that person but to scare the shaZam! out of them in the hope they get away. If you don't shoot very often then a shotgun is an excellent choice as its point and shoot and anyone who dares break into your home isnt going to get up and try to fight you even if you just clipped em with the spread of the shot. Plus if theyre close you will put a hole in them. Bonus either way. Pistol is good if you can keep your cool and just shoot them streight off but your never going to hit them if your shitting your pants becasue someone broke into your house and your trying to chase them off.
Quote from: Kasumi on January 16, 2009, 12:35:51 PM
Hehe you guys make me laugh.
...Your aim is not to kill that person but to scare the oh my goodness out of them in the hope they get away. ...
Negatory Big Ben. The objective is to neutralize the threat. Almost every state recognizes castle doctrine over here, only in a couple is their an obligation to retreat. The most effectively neutralized threat is one that can't come back and try again. Unlike England in many states the act of breaking in is an automatic immunity from civil prosecution in the case of a self defense shooting or justifiable homicide. This is not yet the UK where a criminal or his family have more rights and can come after a homeowner in a civil case.
My intent is not to kill but overwhelmingly and rapidly neutralize any potential threat in my home. Notice the term potential again castle doctrine recognizes the usage of any force up to and including lethal force in a home invasion. No warning shots no course of last resort, I will shoot and let the police ask questions later.
Let us go look at the shotgun recoil tables.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_recoil_table.htm
Now...........the 12 guage with the heavyweight ammo is 52 foot lbs. While it might not spin you around like a weathervane, it's certainly brutal. What can we compare that kind of recoil to? The .416 Remington Magnum, that's what, used for dangerous African game and a premier brown bear load. I'm sticking with Betty on this one. It's bad enough on the shoulder but insanity for taking it "on the wrists".
On another note and for ponderance. The .460 Weatherby Magnum @ 100 ft. lbs. of energy makes the .50 Cal BMG look mild.
Hahahaa. I know......the BMG weighs 30 pounds so that helps a lot.
Vicious recoil like the .460 can cause detached retinas and dislocated shoulders if not held properly.
I can deadlift 495 for low reps and you wouldn't catch my ass shooting a 12 with any sort of meaningful load from just a pistol grip :cookoo: Get the 12 and if you really want the pistol grip get a folding stock for it :thumb:
The Model AA-12 (12 gauge) when ya just gotta have more. Class 3 (full auto) and light recoil for serious "crowd control". Rate of fire is determined by trigger pressure/time (no selector switch I believe) Here.........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wg1pFNwTOE&NR=1
Tromix lead delivery systems. Tony Runmore a.k.a Tromix is here in Tulsa.
They do tactical conversions on Saiga shotguns. Clip fed 10rd detachable magazine. Do a tax stamp and get that bad boy in a 12" barrel with 00 buck theres a home defense shotty.
Quote from: Kasumi on January 16, 2009, 12:35:51 PM
Hehe you guys make me laugh.
But anyways in the REAL world. Lets be practical. For home defense the bigger the gun the better. Your aim is not to kill that person but to scare the oh my goodness out of them in the hope they get away.
Just like BP said...if someone is in my house, I
may give them a warning to leave (depending on my situation), but the instant I can put them in my sights they'll not be doing any more of this "home invasion" nonsense. An unwelcome guest in my home is just that and, with a family, there are no margins for error nor time to find out if they're hostile.
Do as you wish, live in fear.
the only thing you have to fear is fear it self. a home defense weapon of any kind, (i've only got a baseball bat by the bed at the moment), is a tool. and like any tool of any other kind, it serves a purpose. i'm sure many of you have tools in your tool box that you seldom use. but, you have it so that on that rare occassion you need one, it's there. better to have it and never have to use it then to not have it and need it someday. :thumb: 'tis not fear, or fear-mongering or any of that nonsense, it's simply understanding the times we live in and wanting to be prepared.
now, on the flip side, my dad lives in kansas. told me a story bout a local home invasion. said dude A broke into dude B's house. Dude B has a pistol. fired 9 rounds, in his living room at dude A...and missed them all. :cookoo: :cookoo:
What im saying by that is, your talking about neutralising your threat and such things, the person who broke in you house is 9 times out of 10 going to be scared shitless to find you awake and armed with anything and will most undoubtdly run and if theyre not that they will be high looking for a fix and no real threat to you anyway. So you should be looking to scare them off not kill them. I hate the fact you treat it as some sort of oppertunity, the law says im allowed to kill him why waste the oppertunity just scaring them away.
It seems like you push your laws to the limits, owning a gun is not enough, you want more guns, bigger, more powerful for some reason other than recreation, self protection like you live in a war zone, better yet you can now carry them hidden so you must do that. I understand shooting for recreation, i do that, if someone broke into my house i would if time allowed choose to get the shotgun out of the safe as its better than a bedside lamp. But i don't own the shotgun to protect myself, and i certinally would not kill anyone who broke into my home unless they were endangering my family, and by that i don't count breaking in my window as hurting them who are all upstairs in their bedrooms, i will scare them away or aprehend them, if they try hurt me then i will hurt them. And hope it never comes to that.
Nad Jserio, thats what i was saying about a shotgun over a handgun, in panics people miss, you all must have heard the story of the fugitive who was being put in the back of a police car and he broke loose knocking one of the cops down and getting his gun, he was on one side of the car the cops partner on the other, both guns drawn. They were both so shocked of their situation that neither of them could hit each other with a full clip in each gun. They kept missing being only 4 foot from each other on two sides of car. Thats why you want to scare someone away and if it comes down to killing someone you want to make sure that your very unlikely to miss. You could be a jittering wreck and still at least glance someone with a shotgun blast.
perhaps kas, perhaps not. ( reading your post). but i agree a shotty would be ideal for home defense. if you end up missing at point blank range with a shotty, youve no need to be anywhere around a gun
i like the idea of having my bat by the bed. no need to train the wife. :icon_mrgreen:
kinda hard to do anyway. Eh?
Kas, there are people out there who do look forward to opportunity to use a gun on another person, but don't get us wrong here. The majority of the gun owners here in the states think that the best home defense weapon is one that has never been used for its purpose.
That being said, you're right. If someone breaks into my home and finds me awake they're going to be scared, and they have good reason to be. Lets look at how things could work here. Say I just scare him off. He flees. Tomorrow, he breaks into someone else's home. Lets say, after I scare him off with my own firearm, he decides to arm himself...just in case? There's a possibility that because I let him escape without harm or punishment that he'll harm his next victim. Then there's the other side of the scale...what if he's already armed? What if he finds me awake and decides that the possibility for capture and conviction is too great and that it's easier for him to just shoot me?
There's possibilities on every side and the only way to make 100% sure that the person will never be a threat to an innocent victim again is to end them all together. They know the risks when they break into a house, they should be willing to pay the consequences.
well said mak.... :thumb: :cheers:
check out the springfield XD's
http://www.springfield-armory.com/xd.php
one of my hand guns is a XD9 full service model with a titanium slide and tritium night sights, I also purchased a laser sight for it and have a black hawk and a leather holster for it. even though it is a full service model it fits nice when concealing. I also have an under the arm holster and you can tell its on with a jacket on. you can also look at the taurus subcompacts. for the money you cant go wrong, my brother owns a few of those. the springfields cost a good bit but never jam and are very very accurate!
And again Kas you make an incorrect assumption, most home invasion incidents are carried out by people who are not afraid of whats behind the door, in many cases they don't even care that people have guns they look at it as an opputunity to steal them, invariably they have done it before and depend on swiftness and shock to gain them the advantage. Home invasion robberies are classified by criminals who come through the door knowing someone is home. We have had literally dozens of them here in tulsa in the last 2 months they're up almost 200% from a year ago, these are people who don't scare easily, especially considering we live in one of the most pro 2nd ammendment states in the U.S. I don't live in fear. Train train and more training. My wife is stunned with my reaction times from a dead sleep. Plus to be honest I like the training, we have a world class training center in tulsa that is open to civillians and teaches tactical handgun, rifle and knife combat to LE and Military spec ops from around the world, I have trianed side by side with tactical operators from 2 different swat teams and a couple of counter insurgency operators from the military. Training is fun and it involves lotsa shooting. Could I handle myself in the event it were real, I am willing to bet yes because I have gone the extra mile to place myself in high stress situations, confidence and the ability to act are bred from training.
I had an attempt made on my house the saturday night following christmas, they tried to kick in the front door the dogs barked and I was up and out with a rifle in time to see them fleeing, leaglly I couldn't shhot but I would have dearly loved to but a mag load of .223 through the rear window of the vehicle speeding away from my house, a guy in my same general vicintiy on a shooters forum here had the same thing happen a week later. The police think they got the 3 guys who tried my house and the other house all of them gang bangers all with crimanal records and violent offenders. What sucks is we both live in fairly quiet sedate neighborhood, crime statistic mapping data played a key part in my decision to buy where I did.
I was involved in a home invasion in 1989 in California and drove 6" of combat fighting knife into a guys thigh as he literally stepped on me climbing in my bedroom window. I sleeep very well at night and don't live in fear.
I am going to retake some classes I have already done as the wife has really gotten into shooting recently she just took her state required course for her CCW permit. When I was younger maybe I was motivated by fear but now it's just a matter of pacticality, theres bad people in this world and I choose not to be a victim.
same here i live in an area where one can keep their doors unlocked. which is needed at my home because of my mother who is bedridden atm. so if med help or home health needs to get in they can. but a home invasion style thing recently has happened not 200 ft on the other sid of the property line.. ( adjoining my place. i may be buying and teaching her to shoot. so if needed she can :icon_confused: was htnkin xd40 or somethign like that
it's sad really. that there are people out there like that. but, i'm sorry, if it's my life or yours, i'm not man enough to let you live if you see it that way. i may not have a charmed life but i don't want to die any sooner than have to. bp has it correct, if you choose to invade someones home, be prepared to answer all consequenses.
Ive come to realise through all this that its impossible for us to agree. Certinally (in this area) our countries are completely different. We live in two totally different worlds, the fact that you have guns so readily available and laws allowing you to use them means you've grown up learning and living a different behaviour. Over here we don't and thus learn something different too. Both work but theyre such opposite ends of the scale i dont think its possible to agree on anything.
don't take it personally kasumi. we are not bad-mouthing you, your country or your laws. as you've stated, you grew up differently than we have over here. that's fine. doesn't make one of us more right or wrong than the other. now, maybe subject we can agree on.... E-beers for everyone!!! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
So did you go with the Glock or the Shotty?
What ya want for home defense is a nice Mare's Leg in something mean like .45 gubmint. Loaded with modern powders and projectiles, that'll make a serious impression...
Kaz, I'm not afraid of much (except for Jillian Michaels, she's scary as he!!) I got stopped for a minor traffic infraction the other day and, being a CWP holder (this part is blatantly unconstitutional it makes my head spin), I'm required to inform the officer of firearms inside the car. I had a Kel Tec in the glove box, a revolver in the center console, my HK on my hip and a mossberg and my Winnie in the trunk (I had been out shooting a the range) The officer asked me what I was running from. I replied, not a god dam thing.
See, despite how it has been bastardized, this is where our laws differed the most upon this great country's inception. Y'all retained the 'Duty to retreat' and we turned that into 'Stand your ground'. By the way, you're welcome for bailing your a55 out of WWI and WWII. My grandpa and his father paid for that in blood and some seriously nasty illnesses late in life, think of that next time you're not speaking German...
My argument (and reason I'm glad I have a gun (S&W .40)):
My friend was the victim of a home invasion. 3 People kicked in his door with the intent to rob and kill him and anyone else in his house (his family.) Him and his 9 year old daughter were shot to death. His other daughter was at a sleep-over. His wife made it to the gun in time to shoot back. Even though she was shot, she managed to wound one of the assailants and chase them away. She lived to be able to take care of their other daughter. Two days later the man she shot couldn't take the pain anymore and went to a hospital several hundred miles away. When you show up at a hospital with a gun shot wound.. so do the police. Because she was able to wound one of the three assailants, all three of them were apprehended.
I really do wish we all could live in a world where everyone's needs were met and crime didn't exist. But, the fact of the matter is that we don't. And, at any given time most of the world is involved in varying degrees of "war." Like someone said earlier: A gun is a tool. Like most of my tools, I would rather have them and not need to use them versus needing them and not have them. What would I do if someone kicked in my door? I would wait until they were in my sights and shoot twice at their core. Still moving? Two more shots. That means I get 7 attempts to "immobilize" them before I have to switch mags. (Yeah, 14 round mag.) The last thing I would want to do on this Earth is take the life of another human being. But, Just like my friend (and his wife) I will protect my family with my life to the bitter end.
I don't know about where any of you live.. But, there is two things that will get you put away for a long, long time in a "home invasion" scenario: a) Shooting (at) someone that is trying to run away. (A.K.A. shooting someone in the back.) b) "Apprehending," "Detaining," "Holding," basically anything preventing them from fleeing, short of wounding them so badly that they can't. At which point you immediately call law enforcement. Here, you are not allowed to "threaten" them and hope they run away. You are not allowed to "point" your gun at them and hope they run away. You got your gun out? You better be shooting them in the chest.
And, to the guy with the baseball bat: What's the point? Does it help you sleep better? Do you think you can strike a critical blow before those crazy ass, more than likely drugged out of their mind, don't care that you're home and probably "armed" yourself, career criminals, take that bat away from you and beat you to death with it? (No offense, but seriously... a bat? At least get some pepper spray or a taser.)
Get a gun. Get training. Practice. Breath. Stay Calm. Stay Safe.
*end of rant*
Aye a taser or pepper spray, id be inclined to say taser. BUT a bat, well it would work, BUT it puts you pretty much within touching range of th offender