I originally removed the stock turn signals and installed some Lockhart Phillips LED turn signals DIRECTLY in place of them (wiring and everything identical to stock). They worked perfectly (other than the fast blinking). So, I then installed LED resisters front and rear to balance (lower) the load going to the LED's and they worked as well as stock.
I rode the bike for maybe 5 months with these blinkers with absolutely NO issues and perfect performance out of them.
Recently, I just got some LED Mirror turn signals and larger LED rear blinkers on rubber mounts to increase the visibility/durability of them (the original ones were very cheeply made). I also got a proper LED flasher to replace the large resisters that take up a lot of room under the seat.
So, I simply began at the beginning. I removed the "original" LED's and simply plugged in the new LED's. I started at the rear left light first, just to make sure everything would work fine. When I did this, however, I bypassed the load-balancer and went directly into the stock harness. It worked fine, just blinked quickly which was expected.
Next, I unplugged the Left rear blinker @ the original connectors and by-passed the Load balancers as well. Still, a little fast, but worked perfectly.
Here is where the problems started.
I unplugged the stock flasher relay, and installed the LochartPhillips LED flasher in. Same 2 wire setup as stock. Non-grounding housing. When it was installed, all blinkers began flashing at once. Regardless of left or right blinker being on, all 4 (5 w/indicator on dash) lit up at once. I began fiddling with flipping wires, by-passing the front Left and Right resisters and nothing worked.
So, I tried plugging the stock flasher back in and all the lights light at 1/2 intensity (the rear LED's have 6 bulbs in them and only 3 light up)... however, if I start the bike the lights will actually BOUNCE to the motor and flicker.... they. If I rev the bike they stay ON and stop blinking (again, all 5 lights).
So, I'm at a loss here.
From what I've searched and found in the FAQ it seems that there was something about a "dash board ground" that was never really expanded upon... but all my grounds are perfect. The battery was just charged and there's no issues there.
It just seems as though all the lights are acting as if they're on the same circuit regarless of flasher now. The wiring is 100% stock at the moment. I may try to re-install the stock flasher and wire the LED's back through the resisters... but I'd really... REALLY hate to do that.
Any ideas?
Dan
OK, here's a problem that I didn't notice till just now when it got a little darker outside.
My gauge lights are out... both of them. When I turn the key, they don't come on. Those bulbs are also LED's that I changed over last spring and there have been NO issues with them.
So maybe there's a bad ground in the dash after-all. I guess I'll have to do a little digging.
The headlight and tail light are fine. So they must run on an entirely different circuit.
Dan
Seriously... no one knows anything about this??? C'mon.
Dan
HEEEELLLLLLPPPPPPPPPPP........!!!!!!!!!! :dunno_black: :dunno_black: :dunno_black: :mad:
I did the all four install. Well first I did two which just plugged right in. When I did the back one well that's when the fun began. What I ended up having to do was getting a balance loader from kurykurin. That slowed down the lights then I put in a better resistor. Finally to get the indicator lights back operating I got a kurykurin diode that spliced into the indicator light. It took me about a month to get it all figured out.
I hope this helps.
mary
hello, Here's my history.
Swapped fronts for led turns and swapped for electronic flasher. worked fine. next swapped rears. ALL OF THE LIGHTS STAYED ON, AND OCCATIONALLY FLASHED TOGETHER, worked erratically and turn indicator on dash didn't work. It was because led's don't pull enough amperage and require a special wiring setup, not just a flasher. Ordered $7 kirkurian (spellling) load diode thingee and wired it in. Shezam...everything worked fine. I'm not the smartest guy so I can't really explain why but somewhere on some website there is a writeup that explains ohms and amps and why the stock wiring with turn indicator makes a bridge in the wiring that messes up the led setup.
I'm pretty sure a load balancer just controls the flashing speed and just acts as a bandaid for mechanical flashers. I'm pretty sure even if you use these you'd need a diode to control the direction of flow. The information is out there, though. I looked here before. Try google!
I'm no expert so take this with a grain of salt. I'm not trying to sound like I know what I'm doing. Just trying to help.
good luck
rich
mary beat me to it! While i was typing she posted!
Well, did either of you have your dash lights go out? Because my gauge lights are dead now as well. (Not dead, just no worky.)
Do you have a link as to where you picked up that balancer? Also, where did you install it? One on each blinker, or on the 2 wires going into the flasher relay?
Dan
I've given up on the link and posting features! The website is kuryakyn.com The part you want is the kuryakyn LED diode. It's $7 and you can get it from bike bandit, dennis kirk, your dealership or almost everywhere else. It's a super easy install.
The problem with LEDs isn't at the turn signal or the flasher, it's the wiring that connects the dash indicator. If you look at the wiring diagram it acts like a bridge. Since LEDs are basically resistance free and only use fractions of an amp the dash indicator (incandescent is higher resistance) acts like a resistor for the system and screws everything up. The Kuryakyn diode is the solution. It's basically a splice into your dash light with an extra wire for a ground. It's the traffic cop that only allows current to flow one way across the bridge. There's an unused ground in the front of your bike. If you pull a wiring diagram you'll find it. I think it's a black/white paired up with a brown, both with bullet connectors and not connected to anything. I'm just going by memory, though. It'll take you a whopping 5 minutes to hook up.
For the gauge lights thing, I have no idea. Maybe once this is addressed that will clear up. One thing at a time!
sorry too much caffeine! shorter version...cut wiring to turn indicator. Splice 2 of three wires from diode to those wires. Take 3rd wire from diode kit and splice to extra ground at front of bike.
Ahh.. see, for having not knowing much about electronics you are the FIRST person to make ANY sort of sense out of what I need. I've read POSTS after POSTS about everything to do with these damn LEDs and YOU my-friend are the Rosetta Stone.
I'm going to grab one of these ASAP and see about installing it. I know the 2 exact wires you're talking about (since I currently have my headlight off). I'm going to do my best to tear apart most of the dash and just ensure my gauge lights are grounded properly as well before installing...
Here is the big issue though:
If EVERYTHING was working PERFECTLY before-hand with my smaller LED turn signals... why is everything hay-wire with the larger LED's??? The ones I installed initially had 3 large and 1 micro LED in them (not bright enough)...
The new ones have 12 in the front and 10 in the back on EACH light. Could this added resistance (or lack there-of) be the culprit?
Dan
Here is the PDF on installing the balancer
http://www.kuryakyn.com/documents/installation/4807-21HD-0404.pdf
You can buy it online here:
http://www.kuryakyn.com/index.cfm/go/Home.ProductDetail/catID/16/scID/114/IMID/718
Here is the diode:
http://www.kuryakyn.com/documents/installation/4709-21MC-0703.pdf
And how to install:
http://www.kuryakyn.com/documents/installation/4709-21MC-0703.pdf
Hope this will help you out. That and a resistor from discount auto parts is all I needed. I didn't have the lights go out just the blinker indicator light
Mary
What do you need the resistor from the auto parts store for? The speed of the flashing? Because I already picked up an LED specific flasher that is installed.
Right before you posted this I was actually reading the same exact articles! Lol. Thanks so much for the effort! I ordered the part from Xchoppers.com (cheapest shipping I could find). Should be here by next Friday.
Dan
Quote from: Danny500 on January 24, 2009, 11:06:08 PM
What do you need the resistor from the auto parts store for? The speed of the flashing? Because I already picked up an LED specific flasher that is installed.
Right before you posted this I was actually reading the same exact articles! Lol. Thanks so much for the effort! I ordered the part from Xchoppers.com (cheapest shipping I could find). Should be here by next Friday.
Dan
An LED will draw basically infinite current if you let it. This will quickly destroy the LED. If you add a resistor in series with the LED, you will limit the current going to the LED and not destroy it...
So where would this resistor be installed? Do you have a pic of one?
Is the resistor a load equilizer???
(http://www.kuryakyn.com/Kimages/item/MainProduct/4807-1.jpg)
Dan
My final question (sorry guys, lol)... is this.
1. I install the LED lights to the stock wiring harness...
2. I install the diode on the dash light...
3. I install the resistor/load equilizer....
Can I use the stock blinker relay??? Or will I still have to use the LED specific relay? My thought was the the LED specific relay that I had was to be used instead of a load equilzer/resistors in-line with the lights themselves.
Basically... with 1-3 installed, do you have normal blink speed, or do you still have the fast speed... (when used with stock relay.)???
Dan
fred,
I never heard that before. can you explain. I'm not calling you wrong or anything. The way i learned it (keep in mind it was just high school physics and I'm no expert) is that whatever you hook up only draws the amperage necessary to run it. This is independant of resistance. Even though an led is very low resistance it has an ultra low amp draw. That's why we can use a 300 cold cranking amp battery to power something as simple as a brake light and nothing explodes. The only reason I see to add a resister at each light is to fool the electrical current into running the way we want it with conventional bulbs installed. This would be necessary with a mechanical (stock) flasher unit but unnecessary with a special LED flasher.
That's just the way I learned it and in now way am an expert. i'm always looking to learn something new. If I'm wrong can you explain it to me.
You need a relay to replace the stock one. Before I put the one in from Discount all four just stayed on I think. I just installed the load balancer to the back lights. I didn't need two just one. The relay I'm talking about is under the rear fairing on the right side. Close to where the fuse is.
Sorry I'm no electrician. Wish I could explain it better.
Mary
danny500
I think you're calling the flasher a relay. This is the 2 prong thing on the right side of the bike. It just controls the rate and the LED one is necessary to get a flash from the low amperage.
A relay is basically a fancy that uses a small current connected to a switch to activate a large current. It keeps you from having to run lots of heavy guage wire and amperage through small switches to get the desired effect. Think starter. You wouldn't want a few hundred amps going thru that little starter button.
if you leave the LED flasher in and do 1 and 2 it will work like stock. that's how i've done it and it's worked great so far (it's been about a year). Obviously from my last post i don't know anything about resisters being necessary. I've only seen them built into bulbs for plug and play automotive applications. BUT I'm definately not saying 3 isn't necessary. I'm saying I'm not aware of that.
It sounds like fred is familiar with LEDs and knows something that I don't so you might want to wait for him to get back to you. Like I said I'm no expert and high school was 16 years ago. I don't want to burn up my LEDs either! Those things were expensive.
Here is a post I made in another thread, and is the way I got my LED flashers to work:
Quote from: rylon on August 04, 2008, 01:25:25 AM
I had several issues installing my led signals and integrated tail light, here is an excerpt from a previous post with details about how I have it wired. Let me know if I can be of any more help.
I have all LED signal and a LED break light, and they all work. I have a similar relay to the original one you bought (I'll check later and verify part number) and installed 12V diodes to the turn signal indicator in the dash.
Here is a diagram for all the turn signals
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k304/miphotoz_2006/turnsigmono.jpg)
And here is a diagram of where I added my 12V diodes
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k304/miphotoz_2006/ledtestmono.jpg)
I also had issues while trouble shooting my blinkers as a result of my battery needing a charge (it was dead cause the bike was sitting for a while while getting upgrades/repairs) So that may be something else to check if it applies to your situation.
Hope this helps
Edit: The relay that I have is a Blazer 552/536 LL two terminal variable load relay. I tried the original 552 relay and it didn't work, could be blown as a result of my trouble shooting.
Rylon
As far as the flasher the way I understand it, and the way it was explained to me was that the stock flasher is a bimetallic style which basically needs enough current to heat up a piece of metal which completes the circuit and turns on the lights. Once on the current is redirected through another portion of the flasher allowing the piece of metal to cool and disconnect the circuit. The LED's don't draw enough current and won't allow the metal piece to close.
Here is a link with some diagrams and more detailed information. http://www.mgaguru.com/mgtech/electric/et104.htm (http://www.mgaguru.com/mgtech/electric/et104.htm)
The diode is need to restrict current to only one side of the turn signal circuit. If you look at the top diagram (stock wiring) when the turn signal switch is put in the left position a majority of the current is drawn to the left blinkers causing them to light up and some residual current is passed through the right side blinkers by way of the ground side of the turn signal indicator in the dash, just not enough for them to light up.
But if you replace your stock incandescent turn signals with LEDs while still having the stock wiring setup the residual current that passes through the opposite side (right if you are still with the above example) then the LED's light up because they require less current to illuminate.
So adding one diode to each turn signal lead and then to the turn signal indicator with the other side to ground this emliminates the four way flasher problem. The only caveat to this is if you have replaced your dash bulbs with LED be sure to note polarity when making the modifications as it does matter which end is connected to what with LED's
I hope this helped your situation, if not let me know and I may be able to explain things in a different manner.
And if anyone notices any error please be sure to make the appropriate corrections. This issue has come up on several occasions and I think something should be added or modifications should be made to the wiki.
Thanks Rylon
ha! I figured it out!!! I actually couldn't sleep last night. I kept doing wiring diagrams in my head. You can do what fred said, mary said, or I said. Or you can...
reconnect your resisters /load balancer thingees that you already have and everything will work as good as stock!!!!
adding resistors will keep the lights as the highest resistance pieces in the wiring system. This will keep the dash light from being the highest resistance in the system and will keep all the current flowing in the right direction. You won't need any other parts.
You can run either flasher you want, they will both work since there will be a big enough draw to activate a stock thermal/mechanical one. It would still be better to run your LED one since it's basically a more modern electrical one and the LED designation means it can be triggered at low amperage.
YHEA!
oops, rylon answered it while I was typing, do his way, he sounds like he knows what he's talking about.
I've seen those diagrams before. I don't want to go down that route again. The issue is, i lose a LOT of under-seat space with those large resistors and they heat up behind the headlight and have melted the tape and wrapping under the headlight. I wanted to do this as-stock-as-possible and still get the same affect.
Thanks for the help guys, I'm going to just wait till the diode comes in and try things out from there... At least now I have a good starting point.
I'll let you know how things work out! Thanks again!
:cheers:
Dan
Quote from: Danny500 on January 25, 2009, 08:05:45 AM
I've seen those diagrams before. I don't want to go down that route again. The issue is, i lose a LOT of under-seat space with those large resistors and they heat up behind the headlight and have melted the tape and wrapping under the headlight. I wanted to do this as-stock-as-possible and still get the same affect.
The resistors in Rylon's diagrams are low-wattage resistors. They are sometimes included in the blinker assembly. They don't get very hot, and they are not very big. I haven't been following closely... what turn led signals do you have?
<edit>
I've gone back and read the thread. Let me know if I've got this straight: You have LED signals all around. You have a flasher MODULE (not the stock relay). You have ordered the diode kit from Kuryakyn.
That should work. (you will end up with the circuit in Rylon's post)
Paulcet: Yep, that's what I thought too. I'm just waiting for that diode to come in. That, and I still have to run through the dashboard to find out what caused my gauge lights to quit on me. :dunno_black:
Dan
All you need it two 12v diodes that you can get from Radio Shack for real cheap. Don't know what you paid from that site but if you have any skills with a soldering iron there should be no reason to buy an expensive module.
The resistors in all of my diagrams are integrated into the LED blinkers, nothing has to be added.
Like I said in my previous post was that I have my bike running like I have in the diagrams with LED front turn signals and a clear alternatives LED brake light with integrated turn signals. I bought my diodes at radioshack and my flasher at autozone, no special motorcycle specific pieces needed.
Rylon
Quote from: rylon on January 25, 2009, 06:20:36 AM
Here is a post I made in another thread, and is the way I got my LED flashers to work:
Quote from: rylon on August 04, 2008, 01:25:25 AM
I had several issues installing my led signals and integrated tail light, here is an excerpt from a previous post with details about how I have it wired. Let me know if I can be of any more help.
I have all LED signal and a LED break light, and they all work. I have a similar relay to the original one you bought (I'll check later and verify part number) and installed 12V diodes to the turn signal indicator in the dash.
Here is a diagram for all the turn signals
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k304/miphotoz_2006/turnsigmono.jpg)
And here is a diagram of where I added my 12V diodes
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k304/miphotoz_2006/ledtestmono.jpg)
I also had issues while trouble shooting my blinkers as a result of my battery needing a charge (it was dead cause the bike was sitting for a while while getting upgrades/repairs) So that may be something else to check if it applies to your situation.
Hope this helps
Edit: The relay that I have is a Blazer 552/536 LL two terminal variable load relay. I tried the original 552 relay and it didn't work, could be blown as a result of my trouble shooting.
Rylon
As far as the flasher the way I understand it, and the way it was explained to me was that the stock flasher is a bimetallic style which basically needs enough current to heat up a piece of metal which completes the circuit and turns on the lights. Once on the current is redirected through another portion of the flasher allowing the piece of metal to cool and disconnect the circuit. The LED's don't draw enough current and won't allow the metal piece to close.
Here is a link with some diagrams and more detailed information. http://www.mgaguru.com/mgtech/electric/et104.htm (http://www.mgaguru.com/mgtech/electric/et104.htm)
The diode is need to restrict current to only one side of the turn signal circuit. If you look at the top diagram (stock wiring) when the turn signal switch is put in the left position a majority of the current is drawn to the left blinkers causing them to light up and some residual current is passed through the right side blinkers by way of the ground side of the turn signal indicator in the dash, just not enough for them to light up.
But if you replace your stock incandescent turn signals with LEDs while still having the stock wiring setup the residual current that passes through the opposite side (right if you are still with the above example) then the LED's light up because they require less current to illuminate.
So adding one diode to each turn signal lead and then to the turn signal indicator with the other side to ground this emliminates the four way flasher problem. The only caveat to this is if you have replaced your dash bulbs with LED be sure to note polarity when making the modifications as it does matter which end is connected to what with LED's
I hope this helped your situation, if not let me know and I may be able to explain things in a different manner.
And if anyone notices any error please be sure to make the appropriate corrections. This issue has come up on several occasions and I think something should be added or modifications should be made to the wiki.
Thanks Rylon
Thanks for this it helped immensly with my LED install, I originaly had the diodes around the wrong way and was scratching my head as to why my dash light wasnt working. Ive retained my stock flasher and my indicators flash fast but im trying to source an led flash can to slow the rate down. All that it cost me was $0.50 at jaycar. thanks for the diagrams.