Hello, I know some synthetic oils can't be used on motorcycles, but I think the Shell Rotella T Synthetic can be am I right on this one? It does not have the engery star on it. I know it's used in some 250cc scooters, but don't know if it can be used in the 08 gs 500, would love to use it as it's is great oil in my option at a very good price. Please let me know what you think and thanks for responding.
PW
The shop manual sez to use 10W-40 oil with an American Petroleum Institute rating of SE or SF.
I just looked it up and Shell Rotella T is 5W-40 and it's not SE or SF rated. I wouldn't use it. Find one that's 10W-40 and not formulated for diesel engines. I know what you're thinking. You want to swipe it from work, don't you? :nono:
I thought electrical devices carried the energy star... :dunno_white:
Motorcycle usage for anyone who cares.
Though marketed as an engine oil for diesel trucks, Rotella oil has found popularity with motorcyclists as well. The properties of heavy duty engine oils tend to map to the same requirements of motorcycle oils, particularly those whose engine and transmission share the same oil. (This is called a "shared sump" design, which is unlike automobiles which maintain separate oil reservoirs - one for the engine and one for the transmission). The chemical additives found in heavy duty engine oils work well with motorcycles. In addition, the lack of "friction modifiers" in truck oils such as Rotella means they do not interfere with proper wet clutch operations.
Motorcycle specific oils tend to cost between $8 and $10 per quart. Shell Rotella T 15W-40 costs about $10 per gallon (or about $2.50/quart). The price economy of Shell Rotella T allows a motorcycle owner to change oil more frequently, thus matching the "extended change interval" value of motorcycle specific synthetics.
JASO-MA
JASO is an acronym that stands for "The Japanese Automotive Standards Organization." Among other things, they set standards for oil to be used in motorcycles.
One standard, JASO-MA, specifies a set of characteristics an oil must meet to be certified by JASO. It includes such things as the amount of sulfated ash, the foaming tendency, and the degree of friction provided by the oil.
The friction test is what is of particular interest to motorcycles. An oil that provides too little friction has a tendency to allow wet clutches -- those bathed in the engine oil -- to slip. An oil that demonstrates too much friction does not provide the lubricity needed. The JASO-MA test specifies a range of friction the oil must fall within to meet the specification.
The new Rotella T CJ-4 15W-40 and 5W-40 packaging does not officially state compliance with JASO-MA.
However, posts in various motorcycle-related forums cite e-mail confirmation from Shell that Rotella 15W-40 and 5W-40 CJ-4 has been tested and shown to meet the JASO-MA friction test. The belief is that the new CJ-4 oil does in fact meet JASO-MA, but the packaging does not carry the certification, nor does Shell advertise it as complying with JASO-MA.
Testimonies from many motorcyclists on different forums confirm the applicability of Shell Rotella T as effective for motorcycles. Numerous "Used Oil Analysis" (UOA) on bobistheoilguy.com show acceptable wear metal numbers for Rotella T in motorcycles for oil change intervals from 1000 miles all the way to 8000 miles.
Speculation is that Shell focuses on Rotella's primary market of heavy duty trucking. Emphasizing a motorcycle certification might detract from the primary marketing. No confirmation or denial of that speculation has been offered by Shell.
The Shell Rotella website does have a category in the "Ask the Expert" section with four articles on Rotella usage in motorcycles.
http://rotella.com
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com
Petro-Canada Lubricants Official Homepage - See DuronTM
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_Rotella_T"
If you thought you knew the answer, why did you ask the question? And why the smarmy response?
I'm not willing to go by speculation and online testimonials of strangers.
I also know that the GS 500 is air-cooled, and has looser tolerances than liquid-cooled engines. That, and the fact it has 2 valves per cylinder is why it puts out 45 hp instead of 60. The GS will burn more oil if the oil is thinner. Motorcycle engines are not all the same. I will use what the book says and change it when it's starting to turn color. I buy 10W-40 SM or SL rated oil at the auto parts store for 2 bucks a quart. Not a big investment to warrant screwing around with.
You can use canola oil in your bike if you want, but don't expect me to.
I use Rotella in my GS and it works fine. I see no reason not to use it.
Not the `O` word again???......what are you people going to argue about when it does finaly run out. :D
I use/used the 15W-40 Rotella T or Delvac 1300 dino oils in my GSs and have for almost 100k GS miles now. I think the 5W-40 synthetics are too thin for the GS's air cooled engine for summer use.
Quote from: sledge on March 09, 2009, 06:56:16 PM
Not the `O` word again???......what are you people going to argue about when it does finaly run out. :D
Clip type master links for motorcycle drive chains. :icon_lol: :icon_lol:
5w-40 is no thinner when warmed up than 15w-40, in fact it flows better when cold which is when most of the wear in engines occur. The only trouble I find with the 5w designation is that it uses more viscosity index improvers in a thinner base oil to achieve such a wide temperature range. This means that even though it provides just as much "cushioning" effect between metal to metal contact, I've been finding in both my honda rebel and the GS500 that you consume more oil, most likely because the smaller oil molecules can get their way past the rings and seals. What it also means is that as the VII shear off your oil gets considerably thinner as your oil ages so after a good long while you may end up with the equivalent of 5w-20 whereas in the 15w-40 variant you'll end up with closer to a 15w30. But you'll have changed the oil by then anyways. But I've put 50,000 miles + on my honda rebel using 5w-40 and it still ran strong. I also saw people in my motorcycle club that ran wal mart oil for 100,000 miles on their old 1980's era cb750's. What's important is just changing your oil more often. And motorcycle specific oils are way way overpriced. It's argued on a chemical level by tibologists on Bobistheoilguy.com that there is pretty much no difference. By the way I run rotella 15w-40 in my gs just because the rotella synthetic is in sporadic supply in my walmarts and switching back and forth is a pain because you invariably end up with 1.5 quarts out of the gallon that doesn't get used. Getting the same oil means you use up the rest and only partially use up the new one, eventually you break even though.
Quote from: gsJack on March 09, 2009, 07:09:48 PM
Quote from: sledge on March 09, 2009, 06:56:16 PM
Not the `O` word again???......what are you people going to argue about when it does finaly run out. :D
Clip type master links for motorcycle drive chains. :icon_lol: :icon_lol:
Its long overdue Jack :D
Quote from: bill14224 on March 09, 2009, 06:14:56 PM
The shop manual sez to use 10W-40 oil with an American Petroleum Institute rating of SE or SF.
I just looked it up and Shell Rotella T is 5W-40 and it's not SE or SF rated. I wouldn't use it. Find one that's 10W-40 and not formulated for diesel engines. I know what you're thinking. You want to swipe it from work, don't you? :nono:
I thought electrical devices carried the energy star... :dunno_white:
The 15w-40 Rotella T is a super common GS oil. Many people swear by it. I use it because it is cheap and comes in big bottles.... It is a bit thicker when cold than the recommended 10w-40, but not that many people ride their GS when it is cold enough out to matter. The Rotella T is also nice because the slightly thicker oil means slightly less oil burning, which is good...
Qwertydude, exactly, and our GS is, technologically speaking, practically identical to the CB750. If anyone reads the API recommendations, they come right out and tell you to use S rated oils for gas engines, and C rated oils for diesel. There is more to oil than viscosity.
Fred, that may be fine in L.A., but I live in Buffalo and I do half my riding in sub-50 degree temps. Hell, I ride about 3 months when it's 40!
Quote from: bill14224 on March 09, 2009, 07:29:48 PM
Qwertydude, exactly, and our GS is, technologically speaking, practically identical to the CB750. If anyone reads the API recommendations, they come right out and tell you to use S rated oils for gas engines, and C rated oils for diesel. There is more to oil than viscosity.
Fred, that may be fine in L.A., but I live in Buffalo and I do half my riding in sub-50 degree temps. Hell, I ride about 3 months when it's 40!
I'll give you that the API rates the oils for more than just viscosity, but as far as using 15w-40 oil, the Suzuki factory manual says you're good using it down to about -19 F. If you're riding in 40 degree weather, you're good to use 20w-50 if you want to according to Suzuki. Here's a copy of the relevant chart from the factory manual:
(http://web.mac.com/fredzyda/motorcycle/GS500Oil.jpg)
This chart makes me wonder if there are ever people who actually ride their GS in weather colder than the -4 degrees F that Suzuki lists as the minimum temperature for oil...
The Rotella T and Delvac 1300 heavy duty oils also meet the API SM specification for gasoline engines.
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/NAUSE2CVLMOMobil_Delvac_1300_Super.asp
http://www.sopus-staging.com/staging/ShellRotellaTSynthetic_TDS_v10.pdf
Ok folks, you made me curious so I decided to do some reading. I found a direct question on Shell's website about whether heavy duty diesel truck oil is good for bikes:
http://www.shellusserver.com/qa/answerresult.php?rowid=169
The answer given is in many ways diesel truck oil is good for bikes, but it goes on to say "Be careful choosing diesel oils. Not all of them are universal. In addition to the API Service Category CI-4 PLUS for diesels, look for API Service Category SL."
Guess what I'm using now? 10W-40 API service category SL! Autozone, 2 bucks and change for a quart! :thumb:
Ive used rotella synth 5w-40 on my ninjas and cb750 nighthawk, shifting felt much better with the rotella compared to dino oil's and thats why i continued using it.
hmm, Its time for another oil change, and Im thinking i might try this rotella you speak of. Couldnt hurt.
I did love how rotella synthetic noticeably smoothed shifting, it was really nice and you also knew when your oil "wore out" because shifting would get notchy again. I noticed on it you also get less false neutrals. I really wished it was stocked more reliably at wal mart since no one else seems to carry it. Don't tell me to go to a truck stop or TSC because there are none near me in the LA area, not all of us live in farmland USA.
Castrol sells a 5W-40 synthetic motorcycle oil here and is recommended for all 4 stroke bikes,
Personally I would be worried 5W is too light weight, but there is often alot of un-founded fear regarding these types of issues. Its probably fione.
Anyway, check out the Wicki http://wiki.gstwins.com/index.php?n=Maintenance.EngineOil
the best part is if someone would have done a search on oil this has been talked about so many times and i do beleive that everyone that commented said the exact same thing they always same in almost the same order of commenting.....lol....Just a thought but could someone make a sticky for oil so its right up at the top and easy to find. :thumb:
Good idea Josh. Having read all this I don't have a problem with using 15W-40 but I wouldn't use 5W-40. Our engine needs thinner oil like a hole in the head.
Quote from: bill14224 on March 10, 2009, 06:05:14 AM
Good idea Josh. Having read all this I don't have a problem with using 15W-40 but I wouldn't use 5W-40. Our engine needs thinner oil like a hole in the head.
I'm with you there.
Quote from: galahs on March 10, 2009, 04:10:17 AM
Castrol sells a 5W-40 synthetic motorcycle oil here and is recommended for all 4 stroke bikes,
Personally I would be worried 5W is too light weight, but there is often alot of un-founded fear regarding these types of issues. Its probably fione.
Anyway, check out the Wicki http://wiki.gstwins.com/index.php?n=Maintenance.EngineOil
Castrol also has Delo 400 which is there mixed fleet oil and the closest we can get to the Shell Rotella in Aus. It's a 15W-40 which should be fine. They also have Delo Gold and Delo Silver which aren't synthetic but meets the requirements of the GS, also 15W-40. I'm going to be trying one of these when my current oil runs out.
Quote from: bill14224 on March 09, 2009, 06:40:50 PM
If you thought you knew the answer, why did you ask the question? And why the smarmy response?
I'm not willing to go by speculation and online testimonials of strangers.
I also know that the GS 500 is air-cooled, and has looser tolerances than liquid-cooled engines. That, and the fact it has 2 valves per cylinder is why it puts out 45 hp instead of 60. The GS will burn more oil if the oil is thinner. Motorcycle engines are not all the same. I will use what the book says and change it when it's starting to turn color. I buy 10W-40 SM or SL rated oil at the auto parts store for 2 bucks a quart. Not a big investment to warrant screwing around with.
You can use canola oil in your bike if you want, but don't expect me to.
I thought I knew the anwser, but that's why I asked the question. And as for the smarmy response, I'm sorry I got you all worked up. I'm from the school no question is a dumb question! Bottom line I'm sorry for the oil post that everyone gets pissed off at. Happy riding
I didn't get pissed off, I just don't think it's a good idea to run thinner than recommended oils in air-cooled bikes with their looser tolerances. Whether they're synthetic or not isn't relevant. I just wouldn't want to see anyone ruin their engine unnecessarily. I do know that you can run recommended 10W-40, or the 15W-40 "dino oils" that others have recommended without ruining your engine, and it's no more expensive than what you're recommending. There are less expensive oils than the outrageously expensive oils they sell at the dealerships that meet all the requirements of our bikes, and it's in writing, not heresay.
I would be more willing to listen to testimonials about running lighter oils like this in air-cooled bikes if those who did so put a lot of miles on their bikes. Problem is, few do, and many people make stuff up. I'm not accusing you of making anything up, but my point is why risk it when you can get the right product in writing for the same price?
If you're willing to run the risk, go ahead and put 50,000 miles on your GS with Rotella T, keep track of your oil usage and any mechanical problems you might run into, and get back to us. Then I'd be all ears.
why not just use 10w40 like the dipstick says ?
i really don't get why folks go around this bush 100 times on every forum. what is so mysterious about oil that perplexes folks into wanting to 'try' 4-5 different brands, viscosities, and varieties ?
sure, i tried synthetic this last time, but now i'm thinking they were out of the cheap 10w40 i usually buy. can't remember why i did now. oh well. back to castrol (or whatever cheap crap is on the shelf) for the next change.
:|
Would it only count if that person was on this forum? Seriously there are many tribologists on bobistheoilguy.com that can attest that diesel 5w-40 is no thinner under normal engine conditions than 15w-40. Only under severely high mileages like over 10,000 miles and temperatures does rotella remotely break down, I mean it's made for diesel engines, which shear wise and pressure wise stress is much worse than the GS500 places on oil. The real limiting factors for modern oils are not breakdown but combustion contamination. The guys over there at BITOG routinely test oils in between changes and report on exactly how it breaks down, how fast and what type of wear occurs. If you haven't heard those big rigs routinely go 50,000 miles between oil changes because they have excellent filtration.
i use rotella t 5w-40 in the wrx swapped subaru. it doesnt burn off as fast as others. however for the motorcycle; i use walmart no name 10w-40 SF for 2 bux a quart.
Accel from walmart 2.27 freaking hell, just 3-4 years ago it was 77 cents - 10W40 SF rating. Booya.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: qwertydude on March 15, 2009, 08:49:34 PM
Would it only count if that person was on this forum?
No, not necessarily, but I would be interested in how a particular oil behaves in MY model, or one designed like it. (air-cooled, DOHC twin or 4-cyl with plain bearings) How it runs in a Ninja doesn't relate, as we don't have a Ninja, CBR, GSX-R, YZ-R, or anything of the sort. You wouldn't even think of putting that stuff in a Harley. Harleys require 20W-50 and Harley dealers are adamant about using nothing else.
I guess the reason I find this subject interesting is because it's such a complicated science and our bikes put varying demands on oil, not to mention where we live or how we ride. Where I live, oil gets dirty slowly, as it's generally not dusty here, nor is it very hot. I change my oil after 3,500 miles or so, and it still looks and feels pretty good when I change it. During such time I probably put in another quart several ounces at a time every few weeks to top it off. I think DOHC motorcycles generally put more shear stress on oil than any other vehicle, but you correctly point out that diesels pollute oil like crazy with combustion waste, as diesel is very dirty compared to gasoline, and those acids cause oil to break-down as well. Air-cooled bikes also pollute the oil faster with combustion waste than a liquid-cooled gas engine would, as the tolerances are looser.
I understand that a 5W-40 synthetic oil can provide outstanding viscosity to provide great engine protection, but the thickness of the oil film on bearing surfaces and valve stems and seals may not be as thick as our looser air-cooled engine designer would want. That's why I'm reluctant to use 5W- anything in my GS. I do use 5W-20 in my car because that's what Dodge recommends. I've been looking for information that specifically addresses air-cooled bike engines like ours, but as of yet everything I've found is written in general terms or for other types of engines.
Old school CB750's are a good analogy to our engines and Rotella works just fine in them, plenty of posts about 1980's CB750's on BITOG about how well those engines run and shift with any Rotella and easily surpassing 100,000 miles.
And the biggest problem with specifically Harley dealers is that nowadays Harley dealers know absolutely bupkiss when it comes to actual bike maintenance and repair. My former boss used to own an independent harley repair shop. And was doing really good business before he sold it simply because the dealers usually refuse to repair bikes older than 5 years old, cause techs never trained in real motorcycle repair. Harley dealers also recommend "Harley" brand oil, transmission and clutch fluid and poo poo fancy stuff like synthetics, unless it's "Harley" brand synthetic, guess what harley is not an oil company so it's simply because you pay a big premium at the dealer that they recommend harley brand everything. Yet every BITOGer that runs synthetics in their Harleys report lower wear when doing used oil analyses. So take Harley recommendations with a grain of salt.
Oil is oil, it's not a magical substance that varies so much between brands that your engine will blow up without running factory specific stuff it's why there are API ratings in the first place to maintain consistency among oil companies, stay in the weight ratings and minumum spec and you'll be fine oh yeah don't forget to change it frequently also. Trust me it works because API designations are all backwards compatible. Recommending in house brand oil is simply a marketing scheme. Now there are very specific circumstances where there is a reason to use in house oil but that only really applies to extra long change oil intervals like you see in some european cars with 25,000 mile oil change intervals and those specific oils use more stable additives and completely different base stocks but putting that in something like a GS would be kinda dumb because we don't have the filtration necessary to remove the combustion chamber contamination.
And oil among different engines does relate. Higher compression, higher revving engines are simply harder on their oil than a GS is, so what's good for them would be good for us. I can give specific examples of hotspots and shear forces but then I'd have to explain every single little detail on tribology, and it's all covered in BITOG which everyone should lurk and read if they even wanna think on forming an opinion on oil. Were GS experts here they're oil experts there. And like I said before the oil film thickness when warm is just the same with 5w-40 as it is with 15w-40, if it weren't there would be specific instructions by manufacturers that tell you not to use 5w-40 in 10w-40 applications, but the minor differences between the cold weights shouldn't even cause concern. In fact with more VII's in the oil the viscosity/temperature drop off should be even more stable at higher temperatures than plain ol' 15w-40 so valves should be just as protected again proved by the fact that there is less wear metals in Rotella synthetic than other oils. Trust me if rotella was a bad idea in any application that would have been quickly pointed out by BITOG, just like when they pointed out higher wear metals in old pre-reformulated Pennzoil.
All in all a simple blanket statement like "only use Suzuki brand oil in your Suzuki because it's the best" shows a complete lack of understanding of even basic tribology and unfortunately those are the hardest opinions to change.
Geez. http://www.npr.org/blogs/monkeysee/2009/03/ten_toxic_things_you_should_ne_1.html And number 11 is oil.