Apparently they are supposed to pay that $$ to their execs by contract.
That is atleast 1 good reason to have let them fail.
And JPMorgan's Idiot CEO says he has to pay big $$ to his execs because otherwise they will quit and go else where like europe.
OK I suggest we do that, maybe they will go to europe and pay taxes on the $ they make there, unless of course they entirely give up US citizenship, in which case I'd say its a good way to trim the population.
Not like there is any jobs anywhere ... any one know what the unemployment rate is for brownosing CEO's ?
Cool.
Buddha.
actually i read it's 165 billion, but who's counting right? :cookoo: i understand the logic behind a contract agreement. but to say that if they don't pay them, the employees won't "perform" or "will quit" is just assinie. these are the same people responsible for the company loses anyways so how does a "performance bonus" fit into their contract to begin with? seriously? but, hey, i'll take that job. :cookoo:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29714402/
Quote from: jserio on March 16, 2009, 07:34:45 AM
actually i read it's 165 billion, but who's counting right? :cookoo: i understand the logic behind a contract agreement. but to say that if they don't pay them, the employees won't "perform" or "will quit" is just assinie. these are the same people responsible for the company loses anyways so how does a "performance bonus" fit into their contract to begin with? seriously? but, hey, i'll take that job. :cookoo:
165 million. Not billion and yes thanks for the clarification.
Now gstwinners need to pay me 150 billion, or I'll stop breathing.
Cool.
Buddha.
ah, yes, million, my bad. but seriously, i've seen both terms in relation to AIG so much in the past few months i tend to get them mixed up. :cookoo:
Quote from: The Buddha on March 16, 2009, 09:12:12 AM
Now gstwinners need to pay me 150 billion, or I'll stop breathing.
Dang, We will miss you bro. :sad:
Quote from: cafeboy on March 16, 2009, 09:54:28 AM
Quote from: The Buddha on March 16, 2009, 09:12:12 AM
Now gstwinners need to pay me 150 billion, or I'll stop breathing.
Dang, We will miss you bro. :sad:
Oh yea, then I'm going to quit and work only with GSXR squid - I mean, er ... people.
Cool.
Buddha.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090316/ap_on_go_pr_wh/aig_outrage
president says he wants to block these payments. does he have the power to do so? should he have the power to do so? this whole mess doesn't seem to have a right or wrong answer really. because AIG is so big, and such a large part of the entire global economy. they never should have been allowed to be so massive to begin with really. i read that if AIG had collapsed, the entire global economy would have gone with it. not sure how much of that statement is true. :mad:
Again ( dang we going to miss you bro )
Quote from: jserio on March 16, 2009, 10:01:28 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090316/ap_on_go_pr_wh/aig_outrage
president says he wants to block these payments. does he have the power to do so? should he have the power to do so? this whole mess doesn't seem to have a right or wrong answer really. because AIG is so big, and such a large part of the entire global economy. they never should have been allowed to be so massive to begin with really. i read that if AIG had collapsed, the entire global economy would have gone with it. not sure how much of that statement is true. :mad:
This seems to be the "truth" ... as has been trotted out and layed upon the unsuspecting public.
All I can say is ... prove it. The first 1-2 failures will ahve been big. Really shaking the system, past that it will all be yea yea another day another mega bank failure.
Its like the man is falling dead in the street with a heart attack. What if he gets hit by a train after that. I doubt it matters any in reality.
BTW we will have a second great depression. The way it will be different is how long it will be and how it will end.
In the great depression the govt didn't do anything and a year into it they tried to balance the budget. Stimulus was not introduced for 2 more years.
In this depression we introduced stimulus very very eary and its had no effect. In 2 years we will be balancing the budget. What will happen is we will not recover, it will cost tons of $ and we will not have anything left to stimulate the economy with because we dumped it all right into the thng right at the first sign of trouble.
As in the first depression and now what they should have done is, nothing as it tanks, and wait 6 months and everything that is shaky will die.
Then ~6-8 months later when all the dead businesses are not there to suck the life out of the economy again they can stimulate it.
Japan also had that same thing and they lost a good 15 years. Some say its not back yet.
Too much garbage industry as well as dead financial institutions floating around for it to be stimulus worthy.
Cool.
Buddha.
and of course in D.C, they'll just play the finger pointing game. passing blame for who's fault it is.
i can agree with obama on this one. and add, let them go bankrupt, which will void the contract, then come to the table and bargain
Fail first, fail big, take all the $$ and then fail again.
Repeat till the public does not want to pay up any more.
That's the strategy at work.
Of course the corrupt pigs we elected (all of 4 years ago, 2 years ago and 2 months ago) are going to repeat a few 100 times pretending they are stupid while what they are is corrupt.
I'd have let them all fail.
Recession - March 2008, November 2008. RIP.
BTW Bush didn't have any reason to be nice to any one, he was out of terms. If he wasn't so concerned with his legacy we'd have been so much better off.
Now we're working on a slow 8 year death at the end of which there will be another legacy problem.
Sometimes doing nothing is the right course of action.
Cool.
Buddha.
From - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090317/ap_on_go_co/grassley_aig
IOWA CITY, Iowa – Iowa Sen. Charles Grassley suggested that AIG executives should take a Japanese approach toward accepting responsibility for the collapse of the insurance giant by resigning or killing themselves.
The Republican lawmaker's harsh comments came during an interview with Cedar Rapids, Iowa, radio station WMT on Monday. They echo remarks he has made in the past about corporate executives and public apologies, but went further in suggesting suicide.
"I suggest, you know, obviously, maybe they ought to be removed," Grassley said. "But I would suggest the first thing that would make me feel a little bit better toward them if they'd follow the Japanese example and come before the American people and take that deep bow and say, I'm sorry, and then either do one of two things: resign or go commit suicide.
"And in the case of the Japanese, they usually commit suicide before they make any apology."
Cool.
Buddha.
read that this morning. bout time someone in washington grew some brass ones and said something a bit harsh. :thumb:
yeah f%$k bailouts. I for one owe taxes every year and would much rather a troubled family have somewhere to send their hoodlum to after school to keep them off the streets than to say pay someone more for one year of work than i see in a lifetime. It seems that education again isn't the way of the future, prepare yourselves for Gatorade fountains ...
The whole freaking country needs that.
We're hell bent on saving everything. Some sheite deserves to fail. If I was the Fed cheif I'd be standing there inviting the clowns who want the bail out.
Then go over their books either quickly (depending on how much of a hurry they are in) or slowly.
Then stamp on it "you deserve to fail". It will be accompanied with a letter saying "I suggest a orderly Chapter 7/11/13 followed by a nice neat suicide note, get a pre paid back hoe+operator for both digging and refilling, then you go dig yourself a good deep pit, after which you may kill yourself in the preferred method and make sure you fall into that pit when you're done. Your back hoe contract should then be fulfilled by the backhoe rental agency".
There are variations of this. You can be tossed in jail for the $$ you owe, you will do labor and we'd credit you for that work, charge you rent for room and board and rent out your office space to deserving non profit agencies, viable manufacturing (like the buddha bars projects - as a rough example) and we'd other wise make $ form your assets as we see fit, charge you a maintenance fee and cover your debts. AKA the buddha twist on debtors prison.
There is also the "too big to save" descision.
Truly deserving bail outs are going to be so few. The very rare lived within their means but got side swiped by some other BS will be appropriately bailed out. What I call the 9/11 family type situation. And that too is not a free pass. It will come with very little interest and very light penalties, but its gonna require a lot of things.
Cool.
Buddha.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090317/ap_on_go_co/aig_outrage
an update of sorts.
No, not 165 million, 218 million, what's another 53 million, somehow we lost it so it wasn't counted in the begining. Oops, our bad.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: The Buddha on March 17, 2009, 06:54:33 AM
From - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090317/ap_on_go_co/grassley_aig
IOWA CITY, Iowa – Iowa Sen. Charles Grassley suggested that AIG executives should take a Japanese approach toward accepting responsibility for the collapse of the insurance giant by resigning or killing themselves.
The Republican lawmaker's harsh comments came during an interview with Cedar Rapids, Iowa, radio station WMT on Monday. They echo remarks he has made in the past about corporate executives and public apologies, but went further in suggesting suicide.
"I suggest, you know, obviously, maybe they ought to be removed," Grassley said. "But I would suggest the first thing that would make me feel a little bit better toward them if they'd follow the Japanese example and come before the American people and take that deep bow and say, I'm sorry, and then either do one of two things: resign or go commit suicide.
"And in the case of the Japanese, they usually commit suicide before they make any apology."
Cool.
Buddha.
Thats all fine and good but guess what though Japanaes execs take a working mans wage there salaries are bonus driven. Didn't the head of honda motors make 17million in bonuses last year.....Hmmmmm.
You have 3 types of bonuses, sign on, retention part of these bonuses were retention and part performance, these were payed to peopel company wide not just the financial products division that screwed the pooch but to people who did good work and stayed when they should have fled..
Oh yea they're going to flee - where ??? really ... there is hiring at other companies en masse for paper pushers ??? really ? OK then please go.
BTW 11 exec's who got 1 million + bonuses were no longer with the company. Is that performance or retention, or sign on ?
Fact is, The government threw $$ and the problem without reading the contract.
They should have let AIG fail, and covered their counterparties only and only to a minimal extent, and only if they were critically important to an otherwise healthy entity. Anyone who bought a CDS against Lehman, from AIG who will die if that CDS were not covered, but will prosper otherwise will have to be covered. Else they die. Citi bank lets say had a 100 million in Lehmann CDS from AIG, Citi already in in collapse and already have their hand out to the tune of 70 billion. This 100 mill CDS is a drop in the bucket, screw them, you gambled, you lost. You thought the 3 card monty game you were in, is a credible player. Sorry screw you. However if AC delco had a fund that was paying employee pensions with lehmann Bonds that were backed by CDS, then cover that.
No reading the fine print, It was bail now, bail fast, bail big, and fail anyway.
Chapter 11 in govt control, and all contracts will be reviewed on a case by case basis. That was the way to do it. That means getting your hands dirty and meant not bailing goldman sachs before they got shafted. Sorry, that was why AIG was even bailed out. It was wrong for everyone who didn't own a chunk of goldman and it was very very expensive for any one who didn't work for AIG.
Cool.
Buddha.
I was against the bail out to begin with, the fact that bonuses were paid is because the bill authors allowed it. Other bailouts had anit bonus provisions so why did they allow AIG to have them. It's smoke and mirrors trying to distract people from the real issue which is where did 165 Billion dollars dissaper to? the bonus sum is chump change but it sounds huge and gets the entire population into the proletariat vs bourgeoisie mind set which makes it easier to implement socialist policies. I know businessmen who actually think passing a law to penalize these people who took their bonuses is the right thing to do... Do you? are you falling into the socialist trap? The .gov knew about the bonuses when they handed the money to AIG, this whole we were bindsided and don't approve of this money being spent in this manner is disingenuos they're caught and everyone has lost sight of the prize.
Right good diversion, but remember that this was implemented under the bush bail out plan by paulson. Noy just the Obama tranch by Geitner.
Yes its socialist and its not Obama who started it.
Seriously I will ahve let them all fail. The first 2-3 that fail will ahve made a huge noise, the rest will have faded into the background. Then we can recover and stimulate whatever.
Quick death, and that should kill the lumbering corporations. Then we start at the lower levels and stimulate the economy for the working class. Like GM and its parts suppliers, manufacturing, road building (and not just worthless dig a hole, fill it types).
Socialism yes, started by paulson under Bush in March of 08 and contimued from jan 09 by Geitner under Obama.
Frankly I think geitner needs a spine, and he needs to stand up to the heavyweights. Paulson was corrupt and is by design giving $ to wall street, Geitner is weak and hence unable to stop $ flowing to wall street.
Cool.
Buddha.
And who wrote the bailout? Congress. And who was speaker of the house? Pelosi. Who had a hand in the gongressional dragting of the bailout during the previous admin? Gethner. Who was the controlling party in the house the past 2 years?
It is disingeuos to believe the very people who are promoting obvious class warfare did not know about this sorry but it doesn't fly. Where is the 165Billion answer that then maybe I will pay attention to the paltry 165 million they want us to be upset about.
Good letter.
The following is a letter sent on Tuesday by Jake DeSantis, an executive vice president of the American International Group's financial products unit, to Edward M. Liddy, the chief executive of A.I.G.
DEAR Mr. Liddy,
It is with deep regret that I submit my notice of resignation from A.I.G. Financial Products. I hope you take the time to read this entire letter. Before describing the details of my decision, I want to offer some context:
I am proud of everything I have done for the commodity and equity divisions of A.I.G.-F.P. I was in no way involved in — or responsible for — the credit default swap transactions that have hamstrung A.I.G. Nor were more than a handful of the 400 current employees of A.I.G.-F.P. Most of those responsible have left the company and have conspicuously escaped the public outrage.
After 12 months of hard work dismantling the company — during which A.I.G. reassured us many times we would be rewarded in March 2009 — we in the financial products unit have been betrayed by A.I.G. and are being unfairly persecuted by elected officials. In response to this, I will now leave the company and donate my entire post-tax retention payment to those suffering from the global economic downturn. My intent is to keep none of the money myself.
I take this action after 11 years of dedicated, honorable service to A.I.G. I can no longer effectively perform my duties in this dysfunctional environment, nor am I being paid to do so. Like you, I was asked to work for an annual salary of $1, and I agreed out of a sense of duty to the company and to the public officials who have come to its aid. Having now been let down by both, I can no longer justify spending 10, 12, 14 hours a day away from my family for the benefit of those who have let me down.
You and I have never met or spoken to each other, so I'd like to tell you about myself. I was raised by schoolteachers working multiple jobs in a world of closing steel mills. My hard work earned me acceptance to M.I.T., and the institute's generous financial aid enabled me to attend. I had fulfilled my American dream.
I started at this company in 1998 as an equity trader, became the head of equity and commodity trading and, a couple of years before A.I.G.'s meltdown last September, was named the head of business development for commodities. Over this period the equity and commodity units were consistently profitable — in most years generating net profits of well over $100 million. Most recently, during the dismantling of A.I.G.-F.P., I was an integral player in the pending sale of its well-regarded commodity index business to UBS. As you know, business unit sales like this are crucial to A.I.G.'s effort to repay the American taxpayer.
The profitability of the businesses with which I was associated clearly supported my compensation. I never received any pay resulting from the credit default swaps that are now losing so much money. I did, however, like many others here, lose a significant portion of my life savings in the form of deferred compensation invested in the capital of A.I.G.-F.P. because of those losses. In this way I have personally suffered from this controversial activity — directly as well as indirectly with the rest of the taxpayers.
I have the utmost respect for the civic duty that you are now performing at A.I.G. You are as blameless for these credit default swap losses as I am. You answered your country's call and you are taking a tremendous beating for it.
But you also are aware that most of the employees of your financial products unit had nothing to do with the large losses. And I am disappointed and frustrated over your lack of support for us. I and many others in the unit feel betrayed that you failed to stand up for us in the face of untrue and unfair accusations from certain members of Congress last Wednesday and from the press over our retention payments, and that you didn't defend us against the baseless and reckless comments made by the attorneys general of New York and Connecticut.
My guess is that in October, when you learned of these retention contracts, you realized that the employees of the financial products unit needed some incentive to stay and that the contracts, being both ethical and useful, should be left to stand. That's probably why A.I.G. management assured us on three occasions during that month that the company would "live up to its commitment" to honor the contract guarantees.
That may be why you decided to accelerate by three months more than a quarter of the amounts due under the contracts. That action signified to us your support, and was hardly something that one would do if he truly found the contracts "distasteful."
That may also be why you authorized the balance of the payments on March 13.
At no time during the past six months that you have been leading A.I.G. did you ask us to revise, renegotiate or break these contracts — until several hours before your appearance last week before Congress.
I think your initial decision to honor the contracts was both ethical and financially astute, but it seems to have been politically unwise. It's now apparent that you either misunderstood the agreements that you had made — tacit or otherwise — with the Federal Reserve, the Treasury, various members of Congress and Attorney General Andrew Cuomo of New York, or were not strong enough to withstand the shifting political winds.
You've now asked the current employees of A.I.G.-F.P. to repay these earnings. As you can imagine, there has been a tremendous amount of serious thought and heated discussion about how we should respond to this breach of trust.
As most of us have done nothing wrong, guilt is not a motivation to surrender our earnings. We have worked 12 long months under these contracts and now deserve to be paid as promised. None of us should be cheated of our payments any more than a plumber should be cheated after he has fixed the pipes but a careless electrician causes a fire that burns down the house.
Many of the employees have, in the past six months, turned down job offers from more stable employers, based on A.I.G.'s assurances that the contracts would be honored. They are now angry about having been misled by A.I.G.'s promises and are not inclined to return the money as a favor to you.
The only real motivation that anyone at A.I.G.-F.P. now has is fear. Mr. Cuomo has threatened to "name and shame," and his counterpart in Connecticut, Richard Blumenthal, has made similar threats — even though attorneys general are supposed to stand for due process, to conduct trials in courts and not the press.
So what am I to do? There's no easy answer. I know that because of hard work I have benefited more than most during the economic boom and have saved enough that my family is unlikely to suffer devastating losses during the current bust. Some might argue that members of my profession have been overpaid, and I wouldn't disagree.
That is why I have decided to donate 100 percent of the effective after-tax proceeds of my retention payment directly to organizations that are helping people who are suffering from the global downturn. This is not a tax-deduction gimmick; I simply believe that I at least deserve to dictate how my earnings are spent, and do not want to see them disappear back into the obscurity of A.I.G.'s or the federal government's budget. Our earnings have caused such a distraction for so many from the more pressing issues our country faces, and I would like to see my share of it benefit those truly in need.
On March 16 I received a payment from A.I.G. amounting to $742,006.40, after taxes. In light of the uncertainty over the ultimate taxation and legal status of this payment, the actual amount I donate may be less — in fact, it may end up being far less if the recent House bill raising the tax on the retention payments to 90 percent stands. Once all the money is donated, you will immediately receive a list of all recipients.
This choice is right for me. I wish others at A.I.G.-F.P. luck finding peace with their difficult decision, and only hope their judgment is not clouded by fear.
Mr. Liddy, I wish you success in your commitment to return the money extended by the American government, and luck with the continued unwinding of the company's diverse businesses — especially those remaining credit default swaps. I'll continue over the short term to help make sure no balls are dropped, but after what's happened this past week I can't remain much longer — there is too much bad blood. I'm not sure how you will greet my resignation, but at least Attorney General Blumenthal should be relieved that I'll leave under my own power and will not need to be "shoved out the door."
Sincerely,
Jake DeSantis
I love it when peckerhead paper pushers start getting all righteous ... they talk of innivation in this or that ... WTF ... that same innovation was what lead to the subprime explosion and massive over leveraging ...
Its a 0 sum game no matter what they say its a 0 sum game. Some 0 sum games are not too harmful, but most others are.
If you cannot get the steady hard working and earning and bill paying folks to over extend themselves buying your "innovative product - heloc with 18% interest" cos they read the fine print, you push that crap on the reckless risktakers with 300 credit scores. BTW you do know that there is a reason they have 300 credit scores right ?
We dont need innovation. Heck we dont even need 1/2 the old products that are there, they only serve as a long rope to tie your noose.
Innovative financial product is literally like saying "very nice serial killer".
Its all about taking money from other people. If I was punching them and taking their $, and instead you sneak up behind them and pick their pocket, you are being innovative, OK fine you've robbed them but not had them get injured too. I have injured them. However they will fall for you over and over, cos they have never seen you, Me, they recognise a mile away and run. Innovative yes, detrimental, very very much more than the average crook.
Cool.
Buddha.
Don't be fooled by any of this, folks. The administration knew about the bonuses all along, including Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner. They are the ones who got the language put into the Porkulus Bill in the first place.
They are only grandstanding about the bonuses to make you think they're on your side.
THEY'RE NOT.
The crooked politicians make their living based on the assumption that you're stupid, inattentive, or both.
DON'T BE.
Also, keep in mind that AIG is an insurance giant, and only one arm of the company, the arm that was engaged in credit default swaps, sunk the company. The rest of the company is innocent.
Insurance of any kind only serves to increase the costs associated with things.
Lets try this, instead of paying your doctor you pay these paper pushers, who will pay your doctor. Can you tell me how that can be cheaper.
With these CDS crap available that encourages people to do very risky things. After all they cannot lose. Like you know insure you $$ and run to vegas. lose it and claim it on insurance. How is that financial innovation.
Cool.
Buddha.