Not sure how to explain this.
Maybe it's because I'm new, but my bike feels wiggly around turns. The rear end seems to do it's own thing sometimes. It's not exactly slipping, more like shifting an inch or so toward the outside every now and then.
The tire's new, but broken in. The axle assembly is assembled correctly. I didn't use a long straight edge to find alignment, I just measured the chain adjustment studs. Is that the problem, or am I hitting gravel or something?
I'm not leaning too far. I've still got 1/2" chicken strips on both sides.
I find myself losing commitment to some corners out of fear that it's gonna slip.
Do I just need more speed for that lean angle? Bike feels like it's not really "planting", but what do I know. :icon_rolleyes:
Geez, I need track time...
Oh, stock besides progressives up front. I'll post the tire brand if it's necessary.
I don't ride on wet roads, so that's not the problem.
The prerequisite dumb question must be asked...Did you check your tire pressure? Next question would be on what setting is your rear shock.
Whats your suspension setup like? Another thing is your tires. It could be if they are squared off, you're just falling off the edge from the center flat to the edge. However, seeing as you say they're new, are they the proper size for the rim or are they to big? If they're too big, they may be pinched and could be falling off the high center to the edge. My best educated guess be the suspension. Stiffen up the front, stiffen the pre-load or replace the stock rear shock. I used to have the same feeling, but when I put the Race Tech springs and heavier oil in the forks and stiffened the preload to 7 (I`m 5`11 250lbs for now), alot of the squirreliness went way, but I still have some that I`m working on.
Quote from: Infinite Dimentia on March 17, 2009, 09:17:14 PM
Whats your suspension setup like? Another thing is your tires. It could be if they are squared off, you're just falling off the edge from the center flat to the edge. However, seeing as you say they're new, are they the proper size for the rim or are they to big? If they're too big, they may be pinched and could be falling off the high center to the edge. My best educated guess be the suspension. Stiffen up the front, stiffen the pre-load or replace the stock rear shock. I used to have the same feeling, but when I put the Race Tech springs and heavier oil in the forks and stiffened the preload to 7 (I`m 5`11 250lbs for now), alot of the squirreliness went way, but I still have some that I`m working on.
I'm noticing some wiggle myself now too... I have a Kat rear shock and .90 sonics with 15w in the front. I've tried softening the comp damping, and stiffening the rebound, vice-a-versa, and adding a tad bit of pre-load... but it's hard to determine if it's acting odd because it's too hard, or too soft. On hard bumps or dips the ass end likes to throw me off the seat a bit... but the preload front and rear are set to my weight for sag... 32mm.
So I dunno what's up. I'm also running 150's on the rear, but they're a smooth transition from center to sidewall, so I wouldn't figure that's the case.
Weird. If you guys figure something out post your findings, and I'll do the same on my end.
If your rear tire is squared off from highway miles, transitioning though the ridge between the normal tire profile and the flat zone will cause a squirrelly feeling in corners.
Low tire pressure, hard tires, and out of alignment wheels and loose steering head or swingarm bearings can cause a wiggle too.
Being a new rider, it is likely you're not looking though the corner. Stop staring at your front wheel and keep a light grip. :D
Yeah, everything GeeP said. When my bike starts to feel like it is stepping out in corners, it is always the tire pressure being a bit low. A few pounds low is more than enough to notice....
Thanks, Danny.
Do you have drag bars, 89's, stock, or what? I'm trying to rule out unconsciously overcompensated steering input, perhaps exacerbated by wider bars.
I know it's a long shot...
What's the experience on your bike? I get a very abrupt shift to the outside for about an inch or two, with no noticeable friction between tire and road. No change in speed or RPM, just a slide to the outside.
I'm also the opposite of a 250-lb fat-ass. How about you?
The rest of you can go away.
I've lost patience for narcissists.
Radial or bias-ply tires? I think bias ply tires are more likely to do this.
I remember on my GSX-R the radial tires had a very linear and solid grip. Once it was at a certain angle it would stay there without any input. My GS is also squirrely through corners, don't feel at committed at hard lean. May just be your tires.
yeah tar brand might be good info and tire pressure.
Another thing to check would be wheel alignment. After my gsxr and bandit wheel swap I had a little wiggle and slip on turns. After properly aligning the rear wheel it went away.
Avon Roadrider 130/70-17, pressure's at around 38.
Barracuda 110/70-17, pressure's at 36. Set by the dealership when I went in for inspection about 2 1/2 weeks ago, and still correct this morning.
Most of the sliding is happening at or past about 20 degrees from vertical, I'd say. Not exact measurement, of course, but I'm trying to say that I have to lean it somewhat to induce the slipping.
I just got the rear around December or so, and I've put about 800 miles (max) on the it. The front came with the bike, but it looks fine. No dry-rot, lots of life left before the wear mark, no bulges, cuts or grooves, etc.
All the bearings in the entire bike are new, as are the sprockets, chain, rotors, etc. It's a rebuilt bike. Axle assembly is in correct order and verified by dealership mechanic, everything's torqued to factory specs with blue loctite. New bolts and hardware where possible.
Brand new progressives up front, with 3/4" PVC spacer. Stock rear shock set pretty soft (maybe 2 or 3 up from lowest setting). I'm not a large person, so it's pretty necessary. No lowering, everything is stock. It just likes to do it's own thing around corners sometimes. It's like it decides to take a little trip to the outside for some reason.
I had a steering neck bearing issue that I thought was the problem. But, I cleared that up by checking the assembly hardware. I've verified that with the dealership mechanic, also. He says it's "A-ok". He doesn't have a clue about the tire slippage, though. He wants to take it for a test ride to find out...
Like I said, I used the measurement method to obtain alignment. That method's been verified by many members on this board, so either it's wrong or my alignment is fine.
Measured the chain adjustment studs on either sides and center of axle.
I think everyone here hit all of the likely reasons. Are you sure it's not normal. The reason I say this is that with a too soft rear (compared to the front) is going to use alot of travel.
Think about if a bike is vertical. When you push down while the bike is upright all of the suspension travel is vertical. As you lean you get a horizontal component to it. If you lay the bike on its side and compressed the suspesion you would get 4 inches of horizontal travel and no vertical travel. So... if the bike was at a 45 degree angle, you might have 2 inches of vertical travel and the same amount of of horizontal travel. You don't really notice this with the correct spring rate since there isn't that much travel during most riding, but if you are undersprung (stock shock) you might feel this.
I feel it everytime I take an onramp too fast with my wife on the back of the busa, and noticed it too on the GS before swapping shocks. I'm guessing this is what is going on because if it was actually sliding that bad you probably would have crashed by now!! Just a thought.
That's why I was annoyed. I've gone over those things myself before posting (and giving fodder to all the hungry critics).
The things I don't know yet are the effects of the rear shock, like you mentioned, and whether my rear tire compound is too stiff. I have tried to narrow it down to that, because I can feel it in the seat of my pants as the entire rear of the bike is swinging. It's not so much a rear swing-arm movement as it is the entire rear of the bike. That's why I bit the bullet and posted on here.
My other annoyance would be from conceitedly posting all of one's upgrades and trying to give advice, while admitting that the problem still exists on his own bike.
Or, telling me to look through my turns.
I have no idea whether it's normal or not. I appreciate your response. But, I ask you the same question. Is it normal?
I have already lowsided from this.
Quote from: wladziu on March 18, 2009, 12:53:07 PM
I have no idea whether it's normal or not. I appreciate your response. But, I ask you the same question. Is it normal?
I have already lowsided from this.
:o
Anything that makes you lowside needs to be fixed immediately. Anything that makes you hightside requires you take a life insurance policy out with me as a beneficiary. :angel:
If it feels like it's the whole back end, I'm going with tires.
Ignoring the lack of dry rot, how old are your tires, even if "new"? There's an open issue in the tire world about tire aging and oxidation, and how the compounds change, blah blah. While I'm asking, you said you'd checked inflation, and tread, right? Did you use the numbers on the frame or on the tire, btw? I'm not going to advise you do do this, but I've heard of people taking 2-3 psi out of the rear tire to deal with fishtail.
I'm racking my brain to try and figure out what you're feeling that doesn't include riding someone elses bike. Anyway, here's what I came up with....
First off, do what lawman said. Those could definately contribute. I really doubt the possibility you mentioned in your previous post that your rear tire compound is too hard (unless it is old like lawman said). A roadrider is a quality tire and more than capable of quite a bit of lean. Everyone b*****s about bias ply tires and wants to blame them, but you'd be surprised how much grip you can get out of them. I've scraped plenty of pegs and dragged a knee more than once at the track on a ninja 250 with bias ply tires.
You'd really only notice the effects of the rear shock if your choice of spring was way off base. Since you've exhausted pretty much everything else, there is one more way to see if you have the correct spring rate. You can do this by setting your race/static sag the recommended way (if you haven't already). Racetech has a great writeup on this. I say this because setting race/static sag correctly will give you another number to measure.
That number is free sag and it is important. It tells you if you are undersprung or oversprung.
Free sag is how much the bike sags with you off of it. The ideal number is 0-5mm. If you end up with zero, that's not necessarily bad, as long as the bike doesn't top out hard. It should just kind of settle there. If you are in this range after setting preload the spring rate is appropriate for your weight. If not than you are using preload (too much or too little) to compensate for the wrong spring rate. This would tell you if your shock is appropriate for your weight.
Anyway following these directions will tell you definitively if you have both the correct spring rate and preload in the rear. If you do, than that probably narrows out excess travel as what you are feeling.
http://www.racetech.com/SubMenu.asp?cMenu=4&c=Yes&cSubMenu=11&showPage=street#3 (http://www.racetech.com/SubMenu.asp?cMenu=4&c=Yes&cSubMenu=11&showPage=street#3)
That's about all I can come up with.
Quote from: wladziu on March 18, 2009, 12:53:07 PM
That's why I was annoyed. I've gone over those things myself before posting (and giving fodder to all the hungry critics).
That's why I bit the bullet and posted on here.
My other annoyance would be from conceitedly posting all of one's upgrades and trying to give advice, while admitting that the problem still exists on his own bike.
Or, telling me to look through my turns.
These people are only trying to help you by telling you what worked and didn't work for them. No one has said anything conceited or out of line. You my friend need to take a deep breath and figure out if you want to solve your problem(if there is one) or cause more. If your acting like this towards this group of guys I pity you if you try to deal with many of the other turds you'll find on some forums. I can guarantee you that if you continue to take things the wrong way and look for trouble where there isn't any you'll soon find yourself wondering why no one wants to try to help you when you post your questions.
JoNathan
Props to Jonathan! I second that motion! This is one of the nicest groups of guys anywhere on the internet. Take a pill and calm down! We're only trying to help you, and free of charge I might add.
Always rule-out the simple things first. First, are you mental? Ok, that was a cheap shot, I'm sorry, but I couldn't resist.
Now for the serious stuff. Even if you're light, crank the rear shock up to 4 at least. 2 and 3 are too soft, even for you. 4 is the factory setting for the stock shock, and that's soft. I use 6 and I weigh 190. Check your pressures, 33 front and 36-41 rear. I know it's dumb, but I have to mention it. Also, compare your rear axle chain adjustment marks and make sure they're at the same position. As others have mentioned, if you have a lot of wear in the center of the back tar and none on the edges you're going to feel it when you lean significantly. In that case I would suggest practicing at low speed in a big empty parking lot.
when i had my sportster i would wiggle when i leaned it over and goot on the lip of the tire from time to time.
Quote from: wladziu on March 18, 2009, 08:51:47 AM
Avon Roadrider 130/70-17, pressure's at around 38.
Barracuda 110/70-17, pressure's at 36. Set by the dealership when I went in for inspection about 2 1/2 weeks ago, and still correct this morning.
Most of the sliding is happening at or past about 20 degrees from vertical, I'd say. Not exact measurement, of course, but I'm trying to say that I have to lean it somewhat to induce the slipping.
I just got the rear around December or so, and I've put about 800 miles (max) on the it. The front came with the bike, but it looks fine. No dry-rot, lots of life left before the wear mark, no bulges, cuts or grooves, etc.
All the bearings in the entire bike are new, as are the sprockets, chain, rotors, etc. It's a rebuilt bike. Axle assembly is in correct order and verified by dealership mechanic, everything's torqued to factory specs with blue loctite. New bolts and hardware where possible.
Brand new progressives up front, with 3/4" PVC spacer. Stock rear shock set pretty soft (maybe 2 or 3 up from lowest setting). I'm not a large person, so it's pretty necessary. No lowering, everything is stock. It just likes to do it's own thing around corners sometimes. It's like it decides to take a little trip to the outside for some reason.
I had a steering neck bearing issue that I thought was the problem. But, I cleared that up by checking the assembly hardware. I've verified that with the dealership mechanic, also. He says it's "A-ok". He doesn't have a clue about the tire slippage, though. He wants to take it for a test ride to find out...
Like I said, I used the measurement method to obtain alignment. That method's been verified by many members on this board, so either it's wrong or my alignment is fine.
Measured the chain adjustment studs on either sides and center of axle.
well, that's not the right way to measure your misalignment. it's a ballpark. it assumes there is no slop in your swingarm, and that the dies at the factory never ever change, that everything was line-bored perfectly, with not problems whatsoever. i doubt that.
please see this thread: http://www.yamahafz1oa.com/sportryderswheelalignmentmethod.shtml
for a simple and dead on method to align your rear wheel to your front wheel.
a poor alignment plus a worn tire can cause all kinds of odd feelings in corners.
you mentioned a tire pressure of 38 psi, and 36 psi, iirc. -that's too high also. iirc the correct pressure with passenger for the rear is 36psi. if you're a lightweight kinda fella, 38psi and no passenger would make the rear slide around pretty easy.
have you tried averaging the readings on THREE pressure gauges ? some of them are complete shaZam!, and read anything from 5-10 psi off per reading. try another.
you said you had a steering stem issue. that could be coming back again. could be a poorly installed bearing getting tight, loose in it's bore, etc. try another mechanic for a check-out ?
lots of things to check, and one possible thing... maybe you're riding above what your tires can handle ?
good luck matey, and no, no one on this board will act conceited or belittle you, unless you ask for it (from what I've seen) ;)
Wow, a lot was said.. good stuff too. Thanks (also) for all your input on this.
What I'm experiencing may be due to a few things... I'm running Avon Roadriders as well, however I've got 150/70's on the back, so they're a tad taller...
They have about 300 miles on them and they were WELL broken in the first 100 w/ deep scrubbing in corners, zig-zags, and a fair amount of high speed.
I do have 1 inch "chicken strips" that I have yet to scrub out... so that MAY be why I feel a little wiggle or slight push out in the corner... but I think mine is more suspension based.
The bike seems to hop in slightly rough corners and I almost fear the rear end will bounce up and then sideways causing a low-side. The Katana 750 shock I'm running is set at the highest rebound damping, and 1 turn out on the compression damping with exactly 32mm of sag in the rear (perfect for my weight... 230lbs)...
I think I just have more suspension fiddling to do.
I have been looking through the corners when I'm really tucking in and I've been trying... TRYING to get a knee down here and there. I think all of the "new" maneuvers and testing and practice has left me on edge about even the slightest bump or hit and I'm still nervous about what the bike can or cant handle... only because I've just recently started driving it so... correctly? lol.
I'm running super-bike bars on my GS... so I have excellent control over the front end and need no damping or anything to keep things in line. Amazing leverage with those things and they keep my wrists at a more comfortable angle than the stockers.
I'm just gonna keep hit/missing things for a while till I see what works. I also have NOT checked my tire pressure... I just slapped them on after the shop mounted new tires... so I'll go and do that before I start testing things again. :cheers:
hey danny,
oh my gosh!! check your pressure. The a$$ clowns at the shop put 60 psi in the set I had swapped this week. Glad I checked before I put them on.
Also have you checked your chain? I know it sounds wierd but when I ran a katana shock I had to run 1.5 inches of slack (measured on sidestand) to keep the suspension from binding. I'm surprised that there are hundreds of threads about katana shocks but nothing about checking your chain slack to accomidate the change in swingarm geometry. Before I realized this I would run 1 inch of slack (halfway between recommended) and the bigger bumps would almost throw me out of the seat since the chain was binding and keeping the suspension from using its full travel. It's almost become my personal mission to tell people about this :D
in my case Katana shock = 1.5 inches slack, not .8 to 1.2 Everyone argues with me on this, but most people don't bother to check.
Also, is that tire approved for the rim? That's pretty wide. You might not ever be able to get all the way to the edge if it's pinched.
No, I haven't even considered that... when I had everything out of the bike (shocks i mean) the stock one and the katana were practically identical in length, so I never thought anything but the shock itself would need adjustment. Hmmmm...
The tires are approved for the rim width, and a lot of people are running them (this exact brand and size) with great results, otherwise I would've just gone stock... but GSJack and a few others recommend what I'm running.
I'll have to go out and check the slack... That could be the very reason I feel bouncy. What I'll do is put the bike on the stand, and then winch down the rear end to compress the shock and see where things are at under my normal sag and then under say 2-3 inches of compression to see where it binds... if it does at all..?
Time to tinker! :cheers:
dont want to sound dumb or thread jack but when you say adjust for about 1 1/2 slack in the chain is that 3/4 up and 3/4 down from center line?
My katana shock was 11.75 inches. I was surprised that .3 or .4 inches could make such a difference. If you don't have the tools to rachet it down you can pull the big middle bolt out of the linkage (on the stand, of course). It will allow you to move the swingarm thru its arc without having to compress the shock. You will find the chain the tightest when the swingarm is parallel to the ground. It's not the greatest way since you don't know exactly where the shock would bottom out but it gives you an idea what's going on. If you already knew that...sorry.
joshr08. I'm referring to 1.5 measured just like you would measure normally so yes.
ok thanks just checking thats what i set mine at with the kat 750 rear shock
Okeydokey, here's my findings... chain already has exactly 1.5 inches of slack in it. I was actually thinking of doing what you just said with removing the bolt, but that's for another day.
I also did a tire pressure test and BOTH tires are at 32lbs... the side of the tire, however... says 42lbs cold. So, i think I'm gonna have to go pump about 10lbs of air into them tomorrow and see if that helps at all.
Then we'll come back to the suspension.
Check the tire pressure on the frame tags (my 93 has two, one on the vin plate and one under the seat) and run those pressures and see how things feel. Note that Suzuki gives differing pressure specs for two up riding. I have only been riding for a year or so and I'm not concerned with trying to get a knee down at all at this point. I'm just getting to know my bike and riding in general.
Steering stem is fine. I didn't fully seat the stem and had play in the retaining hardware. I fixed that a while back; it's no longer a problem. Just a bad memory.
The info in that link probably nails it down for me. Of course, I've got half a dozen dealership mechs telling me it's unnecessary (and the pressure's perfect) and trying to sell me dual-compound tires...
Good to know about the Avon, Ineedanap. That definitely helps rule out the tire. What you mentioned is exactly why I bought it, anyway. I can trust it for some track time, then? I've got to find out more about that. Sounds like I could trust you for some advice, rather than some of the airbags around here more interested in posting animations of fun bags.
If what I've read about rear pre-load is correct, then too little would result in running wide and/or bottoming. I'm not bottoming out, and I don't mind running wide for now. I do need to get it dialed in, but I'm under the impression that higher pre-load causes wheel hop and not the other way around. What am I missing?
Quote from: Danny500 on March 18, 2009, 06:31:18 PM
Okeydokey, here's my findings... chain already has exactly 1.5 inches of slack in it. I was actually thinking of doing what you just said with removing the bolt, but that's for another day.
I also did a tire pressure test and BOTH tires are at 32lbs... the side of the tire, however... says 42lbs cold. So, i think I'm gonna have to go pump about 10lbs of air into them tomorrow and see if that helps at all.
Then we'll come back to the suspension.
No! The side of the tire only tells you the max operating pressure, it is not a recommendation, it is a warning. Go with the tire pressure recommended by Suzuki on the sticker under the seat. It is there for a reason.
hey, I like animated fun bags! :D
I wouldn't trust me for too much advice. I just come here to BS with other people who enjoy wrenching and riding. I chime in when I know something, and ask questions when I don't.
Anyway to answer your questions...If you're doing your first track day the only requirement is that your bike is safe and well sorted. As long as they are in good shape those tires will be fine.
On to part 2. You can't really just say less preload absolutely does this, more preload absolutely does that. Setting preload is just that, preload on a spring. It sets the basic point that the suspension will sit at with the rider aboard. It does not have any real effect on the spring rate. A 200lb/inch spring will still be a 200lb/inch spring no matter how many turns you put on the preload adjuster. The point I was trying on my last post was twofold. First, set your static sag correctly and your bike will work better. Second, use your free sag number to determine if you have the correct spring rate.
Try this example...less preload would result in running wide or bottoming, right? wrong in some cases.
What if the spring rate is too stiff for the rider's weight. We would have to dial in much LESS preload to get the static sag correct since the spring is stiffer. Dialing in less preload would not cause bottoming in this case...quite the opposite. The bike would be VERY STIFF because of a high spring rate. Also you would find a free sag higher than 5mm because you had to dial in less preload to get the sag. (It seems backwards but trust me it's right) We set our static sag correctly and used our free sag number to tell us the spring is too stiff.
There's more to suspensions than just sag. Or think of it medically since I know you like that stuff...if you throw bilaterial 14 guage IVs in a hypovolemic hypotensive patient and fill them with 2 liters of 0.9 NS, are you done?
Set your sag. Your bike will work better, you will know if you need to upgrade or not, and if nothing else you will have dialed in one more part of the equation. And be nicer to everyone else because between everything everyone has posted here someone has the right answer.
disclaimer: I didn't read every word of this thread
But, I would say a lot might be learned by riding someone else's bike. Could just be your perception, could be that you're doing something wrong, could be something wrong with the bike. Eliminate a big variable and swap bikes with someone for a day. :dunno_white:
FWIW, I've never had the rear of mine do anything but be predictable. IF and only IF I do the same thing with my body! And I don't. I am by far the largest problem with my bike. ;)
Quote from: ineedanap on March 18, 2009, 10:29:07 PM
I wouldn't trust me for too much advice. I just come here to BS with other people who enjoy wrenching and riding. I chime in when I know something, and ask questions when I don't.
That's exactly why I want your advice.
I see what you mean about the sag. I didn't look at it that way, thank you. Makes a lot of sense.
After I have this solved, I want a variable or progressive rate rear damper. Do they exist, on the cheap?
My next question is where to find a safe place to test the system. I'm wary of another lowside.
I need an old runway or something that isn't covered in old gravel and potholes.
Guess I'll have to find that myself.
walmart parking lot or bestbuy they usually have big parking lots that are pretty open on a sunday after noon. also local high school on the weekends usually pretty open for a test of your setup
wladziu, you're really overthinking this.
Set your sag correctly and go for a ride. You'll see a difference the minute you get out of your driveway. You might find your problem has cleared up. If the problem remains, you can move on to the next theory knowing that you ruled out sag. If you can't find someone to hold the bike up while you measure, then try turning the preload collar one notch stiffer and see if there is a change.
You already have a variable and progressive rear damper on your bike right now so don't rush out to find another one.
Here's examples. As the suspension moves thru its travel it moves the linkage. The linkage moves the shock. The leverage effects between the two will cause a PROGRESSIVE spring rate change based on position. As a piston in a shock moves thru its travel there will be PROGRESSIVE levels of dampening. You can VARY the sag with preload. The list goes on and on. You can swap to fancier shocks (katana, GSXR, Works) and have more variables to work with but for now you need to figure out your problem.
At this point you have everything you need in front of you to solve this problem. You have a bike, lots of very good suggestions from the GS community, a theory, and a project (setting sag). So please try it. It will take you 5 minutes.
I'm not trying to sound like an a$$, even though that's what this looks like...although in the time it took to write this I could have set the rear sag and made new spacers to set the front sag too! :D
To do the test in leaning go find a Round-a-bout. There is one by a outlet mall next to my friend's house that is never used and I'll just head over there and keep going in circles to see how low I can go. Of course the people who do drive by look at me like I've lost my mind! But, I'm sure I can find it if I keep riding around right?
Mary