So I finally got around to cleaning and reinstalling the carbs, put in new spark plugs and hooked up the car to jump the battery. I made sure the tank petcock was set to on, set the frame petcock to prime and waited for about 60 seconds. Turned the frame petcock to on, and pushed the start button. Bike cranked and cranked but never caught or turned over once. Then I noticed fuel coming out of the airbox drain tube and leaking on the floor. It was dripping slowly, but after about 2 minutes it stopped driping alltogether.
Can anyone suggest why this might be doing this, or why it won't start?
Thanks,
Nick
did you check for spark? unhook a plugwire, remove that sparkplug, position it so that you can see it and it is touching motor, and crank bike over while watching the plug. if you have fire on both cylinders, I would squirt some carb cleaner into the carb inlets and try again
Sorry I've emailed this to like 10 people and instead of copying I keep retyping so I forget what I have and haven't said.
Yes I checked for spark and it was STRONG, and BRIGHT, and BLUE. Spray carb cleaner where? I have the airbox on, so should I take the filter out and spray it in there?
Also, I have been using "brake clean" on the metal parts that needed cleaned not "Carb Cleaner". Would that be the same to spray in there?
Thanks,
Nick
OK, fuel leaking out the airbox drain means your carbs are over-full. The bike won't run, it is flooded. You need to take the airbox off, then open everything up to prime, etc again, and observe. One or both of your carbs are overflowing. This is casued by the needle not seating. THere could be a cause or 2. One is that there is debris in the area, causing the needle not to seat, the other is that your float level is off. Well, you could have left the needle entirely out of the carb, but let's assume you didn't do this (or not :D )
If you can isolate the offending carb, then take them both off & check the float level of the leaker. If it is OK, then re-check the needle & seat to make sure they are A-OK. I'm not sure if these floats have a tendency to go bad or not, but if you take it apart & the float itself is full of gas, that's it. I'd double check the non-leaker as well.
The carbs really are pretty simple, just get out your clymer manual & double check everything.
Good luck!
John.
You know, I wasn't 100% sure I was setting the float heights right, and one of the needle jets I was iffy on replacing it. I am 100% sure I didn't leave out anything in the carbs lol but good thinking.
So I just checked and the carb on the left side of the bike had about 2.5 - 3 ounces of fuel that I drained out of the float bowl and the right carb was completely dry!!!
Thought of another thing not standard. I installed a fuel filter on the hose going from the frame petcock to the lower T of the carbs. I double checked and the fuel flow is going the correct way, however not sure if that is the correct line to have the filter on?
Thanks,
Nick
So I went and did some more checking, and the left side carb (the one that had gas in the float bowl) is the one leaking gas into the air filter box. I took apart the right side to see why it was dry, made sure everything was clean, reassmbled, and its still not getting gas?!
I'm still wondering if this float needle would be the cause (left image large to show the wear, sorry):
(http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/951/dsc02269f.jpg)
would this not seating right be the cause that the carb is not getting fuel? I would assume this would cause a leak since it won't seal right being worn down? The left side carb is not like this yet its overflowing with fuel!
Would the float height being set incorrectly be the cause of the left carb overflowing? Is there any other alternative I should also check causing it to overflow? Sorry for all the questions, I'm still learning carbs. They really aren't that hard to take apart, its just getting them to function correctly that is a P.I.T.A.!
Also, the pilot jet *I THINK ITS CALLED THE PILOT JET* is pretty difficult to get in and out. Its pretty damaged after removing them twice yet still seem clear and not clogging anything (again sorry for the size, enlarged to show the damage):
(http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/6356/dsc02274.jpg)
Thanks,
Nick
I'd deffinately replace those jets and check float level. Use the clear tube method outlined in the how to's
problem is, being unemployed at the moment I can't just go out and buy new stuff if it *might* be the cause of my problems. I need to know for sure and be justified in spending ANY more money on this bike.
Thanks,
Nick
I believe you can buy some singles from buddha. or if you can wait a week or two, i will be able to send you my stock jets for a few bucks.
The corrosion might be a factor. How did the needle end look? How about the seat? Do they ride up & down smoothly?
I'd change those jets. You can see the little chunks of metal just waiting to clog some ports in your photos! Yours is an early bike, right? I bought everything to jet mine, but it was already done. For $10, I'll send you 2 new pilots, mains & the stainless washers to put under the needle. They are gathering dust here... They are the 40's & 127.5's, or whatever you use for a K&N. I think stock filter is the same too. Check the WIKI to be sure...
i have this exact same problem down to a T (left carb and everything). I'm waiting on a new needle valve to hopefully fix it.
looking at your pics, your needle valve is super worn, should replace that. You shouldn't be able to see a groove like that.
the valve and seat are $30ish from bikebandit. Or hit up Buddha... I'm doing the same thing.
Quote from: JStrube on May 17, 2009, 10:05:45 PM
OK, fuel leaking out the airbox drain means your carbs are over-full. The bike won't run, it is flooded. You need to take the airbox off, then open everything up to prime, etc again, and observe. One or both of your carbs are overflowing. This is casued by the needle not seating. THere could be a cause or 2. One is that there is debris in the area, causing the needle not to seat, the other is that your float level is off. Well, you could have left the needle entirely out of the carb, but let's assume you didn't do this (or not :D )
If you can isolate the offending carb, then take them both off & check the float level of the leaker. If it is OK, then re-check the needle & seat to make sure they are A-OK. I'm not sure if these floats have a tendency to go bad or not, but if you take it apart & the float itself is full of gas, that's it. I'd double check the non-leaker as well.
The carbs really are pretty simple, just get out your clymer manual & double check everything.
Good luck!
John.
oh..... and what John here says is pretty bang on!
oh and another thing... check the diaphram for cracks/holes. A pretty easy way to do it is to leave the carb assembled and push up on it with your thumb. If it returns good and smooth your diaphram is good. (compare it against the carb thats working good).
ok, well the leaking carb (left carb) is the one with a good needle valve jet so I'm assuming then that I've incorrectly set the float height. I've read wiki, and my clymers manual and I'm still not following how to set these correctly. Using this from the wiki:
http://wiki.gstwins.com/index.php?n=Maintenance.FloatHeight
Can someone explain what I am to look at for the float arm to be just in contact with the needle valve?
I'm going to be tearing into the left carb to see if the float height is off causing it to leak into the airbox. None of the diaphrams have any damage and everything else looks great. What would cause no fuel to be in the right carb?
Quote from: LOUiE on May 18, 2009, 09:54:29 AM
i have this exact same problem down to a T (left carb and everything). I'm waiting on a new needle valve to hopefully fix it.
looking at your pics, your needle valve is super worn, should replace that. You shouldn't be able to see a groove like that.
the valve and seat are $30ish from bikebandit. Or hit up Buddha... I'm doing the same thing.
I missed this in the photo. Your picture isn't the jet, it is the needle valve, the "seat" part, right. You called it a pilot jet... Yeah, your needle won't seat on that thing, replace it.
I was refering to the second picture when I called it a pilot jet. The first picture with the worn seal I referred to as a needle valve jet.
Its a float needle and yes that pointy look = bad. Not bad enough to not run especially if you put it in prime just a second of so before you start it, it should get started and run ... till it starts to choke up on the fuel and leak and die ... leak before die too ... in fact you could ride it home if you were 50 miles away and at WFO, it would run almost fine. It would empty your tank in that distance though.
Pilot jet - yea its boogered. If I wasn't mad at you, I'd be tempted to send you a pair of stockers for the cost of a stamp. OK fine screw you ... send me stamp $ and an address. I got a perfectly good 20-30 of them.
Cool.
Buddha.
Oh, on a dry bowl it will not start. An overflowing bowl it will start but run farting and crappily till you get it revved into the higher rpm.
And I meant pilot jets, not float needle.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote
I'm going to be tearing into the left carb to see if the float height is off causing it to leak into the airbox. None of the diaphrams have any damage and everything else looks great. What would cause no fuel to be in the right carb?
got some shyte in there blocking flow?
Bad needle that has clogged it shut.
Second option is a bad atmospheric vent. Rare, unless the carb been lying face down in the big muddy ...
Cool.
Buddha.
The atmospheric vent is the top T right? Well either way all the hoses were replaced when I reinstalled the carbs and are brand new. I did get it started, and it idles however fuel is still coming out of the left carb. Here is a recap.
*Cleaned and reinstalled carbs yesterday. There was next to no gunk in the float bowls and none of the jets were clogged. I did mangle up the pilot jets getting them out, however they are not blocked or cloged.
*Primed, and tried to start and the bike would crank but wouldn't turn over. Fuel started leaking out of the airbox drain tube. Upon inspection it was the left carb that was leaking into the airbox.
(http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/8859/carb1.jpg)
*Tore it all back out and rechecked everything.
Left Carb:
- Left carbs pilot jet wasn't fully tightened, tightened it snug.
- Tried to reset left float height (still unsure on procedure, book isn't very clear!)
Right Carb:
- The float needle was sticking in the needle valve. Little sanding on the sides of the float needle and its smooth as butter now.
- Tried to reset right float height (again, still unclear on proper procedure.)
- Small bit of gunk blocking the drain plug of right float bowl. Carb was getting gas, just wasn't able to tell since i couldn't drain the bowl! Cleared clog and all is good.
*Reinstalled carbs, left airbox off, and primed the carbs. After awhile of cranking with different variations of choke on/off, and throttle at WOT, middle, or off and the bike actually started! I adjusted the throttle cable and its able to idle pretty well. However, fuel is still leaking from the left carb.
So my questions are as follows:
1.) Will I ****HAVE**** to replace that worn float needle or can I still use the one I have? If so, where to get it, and how much?
2.) What size clear tubing do I need to check the float heights per the WIKI's instructions? and where do I get it?
3.) What is the proper procedure for setting float heights?
4.) What can cause the fuel to run into the airbox on prime only from the left carb? Also fuel was leaking pretty bad at idle from the left carb, and while cranking it.
Thanks,
Nick
PS: Trying to host the video somewhere now to post it.
PSS: Didn't notice that the exhaust was drilled to I started it. LOUD!
(http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/6435/exhaust.jpg)
To run it a leaking float needle should let you squeak by ... could leak, run very sneezy and farty etc etc, and sucky gas mileage. But run it will.
The rest - set floats after you get the needle replaced.
Cool.
Srinath.
Here is the video of it running, with the puddle of gas on the floor at the end!
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt99/utgunslinger13/th_GSRunning.jpg) (http://s601.photobucket.com/albums/tt99/utgunslinger13/?action=view¤t=GSRunning.flv)
So my questions are as follows:
1.) Will I ****HAVE**** to replace that worn float needle or can I still use the one I have? If so, where to get it, and how much?
2.) What size clear tubing do I need to check the float heights per the WIKI's instructions? and where do I get it?
3.) What is the proper procedure for setting float heights?
4.) What can cause the fuel to run into the airbox on prime only from the left carb? Also fuel was leaking pretty bad at idle from the left carb, and while cranking it.
Thanks,
Nick
Any other thoughts?
Quote from: utgunslinger13 on May 18, 2009, 07:20:26 PM
Any other thoughts?
QuoteSo my questions are as follows:
1.) Will I ****HAVE**** to replace that worn float needle or can I still use the one I have? If so, where to get it, and how much?
2.) What size clear tubing do I need to check the float heights per the WIKI's instructions? and where do I get it?
3.) What is the proper procedure for setting float heights?
4.) What can cause the fuel to run into the airbox on prime only from the left carb? Also fuel was leaking pretty bad at idle from the left carb, and while cranking it.
1) you SHOULD replace the float needle.. its gonna run like a pain in the a$$ if you don't. You might get it to run, but it will probably flood the engine and your plug won't fire thus your bike will die. I would replace it.
2) size doesn't matter (thats what She said) as long as the size fits the drain of the float bowl. I got mine from Canadian Tire... so for you I'd imagine something like an autoparts store. To get an idea, the tube that fit for me is smaller than the regular fuel line hose. You're not worrying about gas flow, you're just checking the height. the clear tube method page might have a size tho, if you really need it.
3) use the clear tube method. Its the most reliable. I've set mine with vernere calipers before and it's hit and miss.
4) a non sealing float needle. Questions #1 and #4 are the same thing. Sounds like your float needle isn't sealing causing the overflow into the airbox.
good luck. I'm right here with you. I'm at this same spot. Just waiting for my needle.
Thanks for the reply. My main problem is with your answer to question 4. The carb that is over flowing is the carb with the NON-DAMAGED float needle. The carb that the damaged float needle is in is not the one leaking!
Thanks,
Nick
Hi, gunslinger. Sorry to hear you're having so much trouble. Your overflowing carb has a needle and seat and/or float problem. The float, needle, and seat work together to keep your bowl full of gas, but not overfilled and leaking into the airbox. When the needle and seat are stuck closed, no gas gets into the bowl. You have the opposite problem. Since you cleaned it more than once, dirt is probably not holding the valve open. The float will hold the valve open if it's adjusted wrong or if it has a hole in it. (sunk float)
Checking float height is a snap. You put the clear tube on the drain, open the drain, hold the tube end above the bowl and see that gas fills the tube to the same level as the bowl gasket or slightly lower. If it's above the gasket it will overflow. If it's too low, the cylinder will starve for fuel. Slightly below the gasket level is OK. Too high is never OK.
The reason it only overflows when it's on prime is because the prime setting by-passes the vacuum operated fuel valve. When you have it set to ON the valve closes and doesn't allow fuel from the tank into the carbs until you crank the bike and vacuum develops, opening the fuel valve. Good luck my friend!
Bill, thank you for that explanation. Sometimes looking at things doesn't show how they work! I appreciate you input. So this makes me think I still do not have the floats set correctly since I'm about 99.99% sure the carbs are clean as I've cleaned them 3-4 times and they weren't dirty in the first place. I will try and source a clear hose for checking the float heights. Any suggestions on what size or where to look? My auto parts store didn't have anything clear small enough to seal on the float bowl drains.
Again thanks for everyones help, its slowly making sense and it really isn't as scary to tear apart. Its just a pain to get it right lol.
Nick
Nick, I got the clear tube that I use from a super cheapo squeeze bulb siphon I found at the dollar store. I don't know the exact size, but it's about 1/4 inch. It's the same stuff used for fish tank filters. Any pet store would have it, or even WalMart. All it has to do is go on the drain. If you find a tube and it's too big, just wrap some tape around the drain to make-up the difference.
Great, I will check wal-mart for hoses or bulb siphon hopefully tonight. Maybe make a few calls before I go to auto parts stores.
Quote from: utgunslinger13 on May 18, 2009, 11:24:56 PM
Thanks for the reply. My main problem is with your answer to question 4. The carb that is over flowing is the carb with the NON-DAMAGED float needle. The carb that the damaged float needle is in is not the one leaking!
Thanks,
Nick
wooops sorry! didn't put that together.
but yes, what Bill said I would have said if I read your post properly. ;)
L.
lol I figured as much I just wanted to make sure anyone else reading it new it was the non damaged one that was leaking in case that changed any suggestions. I picked up about 6 feet of clear tubing from PetSmart in the aquarium section but didn't have a chance to check out the bike. I ran 5 miles in 45 minutes today and am a little tired so I'll look at the levels tomorrow.
Nick
Nick, I know you're on a tight budget now but this is why mechanics attack problems like this by rebuilding the offending assembly. Yeah, it costs more, but it cuts down drastically on re-fixing. In your case, when you put in new needles, seats, and floats, the adjustment is close to begin with, or right on, and it assures proper operation, as long as you put it together right! :thumb:
So I picked up some hose last night and got around to checking float heights according to the wiki. When I hooked up the hose to the carb that is leaking into the airbox and turned it to prime the fuel rose to the level of the upper T and stopped. Obviously, something isn't right. According to what I've read and been told I think these are my options:
1.) float isn't floating which would mean the the float needle won't shut the flow of fuel off into the carbs
2.) Float needle isn't sealing, again not stopping the fuel into the carbs.
3.) Float valve assembly is leaking, again causing fuel to pour out of carbs.
4.) If all the above are still correct, my floats are set so horribly that its not causing the float needle to seal.
The right carb, which has a little seepage around the float bowl but nothing bad, looks like this:
(http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/1533/dsc02275a.jpg)
Sorry I didn't realize how small the writing and lines was. The red line is the gasket to the float bowl, and the black line is where the fuel stopped. still seems to high right?
Thanks,
Nick
yeah still a bit high... that 1/4" or so can make a big diff in performance.
Can anyone post better pictures and instructions on setting the floats. I swear I've done it 10 times now and doesn't seem to make a difference!? maybe I'm not doing it right?!
ok, well I went out and redid the float heights, and I'm about 99% sure they are set right. However, using the clear tube method, the left carb is still leaking. I did notice that it would get to the level it SHOULD stop at, pause for a minute, then bit by bit it would creep up till it leaked out of the carbs. I made sure the floats floated, and I blew through the valve assemble with the float needle held in and no air came out. Would this be the symptoms of the valve assembly o-ring leaking?
Thanks,
Nick
QuoteWould this be the symptoms of the valve assembly o-ring leaking?
Yes.
where would I be able to get a new o ring for this?
good question.. you could order the whole valve assembly from bike bandit.. or hit up somebody who has extra parts kicking around.
The Bhudda can sell you a whole o-ring kit. I took my old o-ring to a bin full of o-rings and got the two sizes that closely matched. Since the ones in your carbs are probably no longer round in cross section, you won't find the exact size. Sorry I didn't observe the correct size when I got mine in.
Should only cost a buck or two.
going to grab a couple o-rings today at auto store and see if that helps anything.
Side question. Since I replaced the float bowl screws with allen head bolts I can drop the float bowls with the carbs still on the bike. With that being the case, would I be correct in saying if I bend the tang UP (towards the float valve assembly) that would then LOWER the gas height? Seems backwards but thats the correct way right?
Thanks,
Nick
Quote from: utgunslinger13 on May 21, 2009, 11:24:27 AM
going to grab a couple o-rings today at auto store and see if that helps anything.
Side question. Since I replaced the float bowl screws with allen head bolts I can drop the float bowls with the carbs still on the bike. With that being the case, would I be correct in saying if I bend the tang UP (towards the float valve assembly) that would then LOWER the gas height? Seems backwards but thats the correct way right?
Thanks,
Nick
Correct ... and here is another item the buddha got but wont sell ...
One set is going in joystick's bike ... he fancies himself quite the mechanic ... so I'd help him I think. Then 1 set for me ... all mine ... all mine ... mu hahahahahahahahahahaha ....
Floats, spigot, and needle in 1 ... you drop it and the whole thing comes out like 1, no separate fiddling seat, needle which will run away soemwhere and then working on getitng them back in ... muahahahahahahahaha hahaha hahaha hahaha .....
All in 1 floats, spigot, needle 1 plastic conglomerate.
You can split them if needed by yanking the floats out of their slots.
The biggest advantage actually is how you can eve get pilots out with this setup ... all you need is a short thin slotted screw driver and a pilot with a good head.
Cool.
Buddha.