hello all,
I have an 04 with 20k miles, not abused, but taken to the track with plenty of oil changes. Now when I press the starter button it just spins the starter gear without trying to engage the engine. I thought the battery was low so I tried to jumpstart but it wouldn't start. I drove my car and charged the battery, it started pretty quickly electrically a few times within a 12 hour period. But in the afternoon, awful spinning=bumpstart.
I topped off the acid and charged it overnight, but this morning I got nothing. Just more spinning and no jumpstart ability.
I've searched about goats and starwalts, but considering that the bike hasn't been laid down in over 6 months I don't think there is damage to the covers/magnets (UNLESS someone knocked it over and just picked it back up...)
Thanks,
Ron
You need to drain the oil, pull the LH cover and see where the drive from the starter is being lost. Most likely is failure of the starter (or sprag) clutch, this disconects the drive from the starter to the engine when the engine fires and also prevent the starter from being spun by the engine when it running and turning the motor into a generator! Its not uncommon for the pins and rollers in the sprag clutch to stick and sometimes a good cleaning will free them off, other times they will have worn or the springs will have become weak or broken and they will need to be replaced.
(http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd92/iainmcdermott/gssprag.gif)
Items 4,5 and 6 are the parts in question.
It is possible to buy an overhaul kit for them, well at least it is here in the uk.
http://shop.wemoto.com/pictures.dyn?u=5834000qqq5828092
The topic has been mentioned in here many times, do a search for more info. Alternatively all the manuals cover the repair/replacement process.
Thanks, I am hoping for a "loose bolt" fix. I am still a bit puzzled why bumpstarting won't start though.
The springs, pins and rollers are ~25-30 bucks @ ronayers.
Yes you could have goats even if it hasn't been dropped in 6 months. Vibrations can get em loose and eventually touch.
And yes I do a +1 on the sledge's diagnosis. Open that left side cover. You think you could have busted the starter gear's idler pin. I call that Goats's little brother.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: rohde88 on June 26, 2009, 07:23:36 AM
Thanks, I am hoping for a "loose bolt" fix. I am still a bit puzzled why bumpstarting won't start though.
What you mean bump starting - pushing it and dropping in gear ?
OK let me think that one through.
Cool.
Buddha.
What you mean bump starting - pushing it and dropping in gear ?
OK let me think that one through.
Cool.
Buddha.
[/quote]
Yea, you "bump" the engine forward with the wheel. I was able to get it to start yesterday via pushing, but this morning--nothing.
As the spinning progressively got worse I never heard any clunking which is why I'm hoping the starter gear is just disengaging.
Sometimes my bike does this, so i just kick the left cover a few times and the starter re-engages.
also, when bumpstarting, I prefer to use second gear, take a good run at it with the clutch in, then dump the clutch and press the starter at the same time. works better than bumping alone. If the engine compression is too much to overcome in second gear (given varying traction/compression characteristics) progressively higher gears will give you smoother cranking, but at a lower speed.
EDIT -- not that this SOLVES your problem, just makes it a little more live-able.
Sparkie - I think you may have a bad spring in the sprag. In fact I am near about sure if it. Those springs belong in a ball point pen ... in fact ball point pen manufacturers may have dropped them for lack of quality.
Rohde: - You are attempting to push start but it doesn't actually start ? That sorta could be carburetion also. Not just the starter/clutch.
I guess you 2 have busy weekends comming up - You can thank me later.
Cool.
Buddha.
sweet, so I will buy a gasket and crack her open.
thanks again fellas.
Did you say it starts when fully charged?
If so I had the same problem and it turned out to be a damaged started solenoid, it was loosing voltage which meant the battery aS draining and I had enough juice to turn the starter but not start the bike
my 04 did the same thing. remove the LH cover and get an impact gun and tighten the bolt that goes in the middle of the stator. if you want use some threadlocker. so in the blown view the bolt would be in the middle of number 3(the big gear)
Quote from: mach1 on June 26, 2009, 09:37:29 PM
my 04 did the same thing. remove the LH cover and get an impact gun and tighten the bolt that goes in the middle of the stator. if you want use some threadlocker. so in the blown view the bolt would be in the middle of number 3(the big gear)
I cracked it open and the magents look great, only 2 small (<dime sized) flakes of epoxy came off. The bolt you refer to is pretty loose, could that cause the starter gear to spin freely?
Does the biggest starter gear #3 spin with the crankshaft? or should it constantly be in contact with the starter running gears? I can host a pic if that helps anyone...
ok, I answered my own question. the biggest gear doesn't spin with the engine. the starter clutch pins seem to be sliding just fine so im not sure why its not engaging the engine. thats is where the power is lost...big starter gera to the engine...tips? i may just reassemble if the pins were just stuck
tighten that bolt and try again thats you problem
Quote from: mach1 on June 27, 2009, 09:18:04 PM
tighten that bolt and try again thats you problem
well, i used some red loctite and tightened that bolt pretty snugly by jamming the gears with a screwdriver, I put the LH cover back on and crossed my fingers, VROOM we have engagement, runs and runs like a champ. I let it warm up for a minute or two then shut it off, cross my fingers again and it starts !!! ==happy days.
Sadly, I waited too long (5 min) and now it makes the same spinning (non-engagement) sound. Charged the battery and identical noises.
Could that crankshaft bolt have spun loose if I didn't use an impact wrench? I thought loctite was the bee's knees? Glad to know I wasted 3 qts of oil....
Did you check the sprag clutch while the cover was off and the oil drained?
Quote from: sledge on July 01, 2009, 02:27:51 AM
Did you check the sprag clutch while the cover was off and the oil drained?
Yep, the springs were springingly freely, the starter gear would spin in one direction only.
I think you still ahve a bad spring in the starter sprag.
Maybe some junk in the grooves where they slide ... somethign is up with the springs, pins and rollers in that thing.
Cool.
Buddha.
Clutch springs look fine to me, they slide in and out.
http://(http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k195/rohde88/th_DSC00087.jpg) (http://s88.photobucket.com/albums/k195/rohde88/?action-view¤t=DSC00087.jpg)
my magnets, a little preventative epoxy to ward off Goats!
http://(http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k195/rohde88/th_DSC00088.jpg) (http://s88.photobucket.com/albums/k195/rohde88/?action-view¤t=DSC00088.jpg)
To summarize, my starter failed to engage the engine after some frequent bumpstarting (dead batt) I took it apart and it seemed like the gear was just sliding down the pin. I put it back together and it started! 5 min later, it won't start or even engage the engine. When I opened it up for these pics, there was a clutch sprag misalinged. I think the clutch piece caused the 2nd mis-engage, but I'm thinking about adding a snap ring on the idler pin.
(http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k195/rohde88/th_DSC00088.jpg) (http://s88.photobucket.com/albums/k195/rohde88/?action=view¤t=DSC00088.jpg)
what did you use to tighten the bolt? I first used a 1/2 ratchet and socket reassembled and no luck, then i got out my 1/2 impact gun also used red loctite then used all 650ft pounds of torque reassembled and that's that. Prior I did what you are doing checking this and that. I was able to use a remote starter and turn the starter over with the cover off that is how I found the problem, I also went as far ass checking the timing chain. So if you can find some specs for that bolt and get a good torque wrench and give that a try or just use an impact and be done with it.
Quote from: mach1 on July 01, 2009, 08:16:33 PM
what did you use to tighten the bolt? I first used a 1/2 ratchet and socket reassembled and no luck, then i got out my 1/2 impact gun also used red loctite then used all 650ft pounds of torque reassembled and that's that. Prior I did what you are doing checking this and that. I was able to use a remote starter and turn the starter over with the cover off that is how I found the problem, I also went as far ass checking the timing chain. So if you can find some specs for that bolt and get a good torque wrench and give that a try or just use an impact and be done with it.
SOLVED! I used a socket and penny in the gears, cranked on it with a breaker bar. Works, at least, more permanently than two days ago. I had re-assembled the clutch incorrectly, so after tightening the loose crankshaft bolt, it was fixed until the clutch crapped out. I re-assembled it properly and it has been solid for about 20 starts and 30 min of riding. Overall, I'm "glad" this happened since it gave me a chance to epoxy the magnets and ward off goats.
Symptoms: battery not charging as the bolt backed off and wouldn't spin the magnets. Worse symptoms had starter gear + stator slipping and intermittently spinning the crank. Final symptom was spins and spins and spins
Quote from: rohde88 on July 02, 2009, 06:18:42 AM
Symptoms: battery not charging as the bolt backed off and wouldn't spin the magnets. Worse symptoms had starter gear + stator slipping and intermittently spinning the crank. Final symptom was spins and spins and spins
Oh those are the sumptoms for Rohde's syndrome.
Wht didn't you just tell us you had Rohde's man. :icon_mrgreen:
Cool.
Buddha.
UPDATE: the repair held solid for 10K more miles, but recently started spinning freely again. I took the LH cover off and re-tightened the main bolt which provided a brief fix. I've been reading more about the starter clutch, maybe I'll invest in some beefier springs.
Bump starting works for a temporary gap, just annoying if it ever dies while I'm at an intersection.
If you want to tight that bolt, you need to take out the clutch cover too.
From one side hold this nut: (http://www.part.lt/img/1ea1201bb61c860019c08c8e37592268306.jpg) (http://www.part.lt/perziura/1ea1201bb61c860019c08c8e37592268306.jpg)
From other this: (http://www.part.lt/img/0af61820655a9228d9e4b371c088b4e4421.jpg) (http://www.part.lt/perziura/0af61820655a9228d9e4b371c088b4e4421.jpg)
Then the motor cant spin, and you be able to tight it well.
Thanks Klax. I popped off the RH engine clutch cover this morning and exposed that very large nut you mentioned. On the starter side, the main bolt was again very loose. This time I held the nut and tightened the main center bolt. It started right up, but usually tightening the center bolt will work for 10-20 starts anyway we shall see if this works!
Keywords added randomly for future searches :)
Earlier i had this problem too, but when i figured out this method, it works perfect :woohoo: