So I've been sleeping on getting this bike running for a while now, but finally made the time to get the bucket out. It looks fine. I did notice a crack in what I'm pretty sure is the valve guide, and it looks like the valve is stuck partially open. I'm working on getting a valve spring compressor to pull it out and check, but until then I'll see if anyone has an opinion on here (haha, it's the internet...everyone has an opinion ;)) Anyway, on to the pics.
Here's the cracked guide:
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287/_badguy_/bike%20stuff/GS/DSCF8284.jpg)
This is what the top of the combustion chamber looks like - anything look out of the ordinary? I don't know what this should look like. Same goes for my pistons below.
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287/_badguy_/bike%20stuff/GS/dscn2234.jpg)
Do these look bad? It seems like there's more carbon buildup than there should be, but I have nothing to base this on:
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287/_badguy_/bike%20stuff/GS/dscn2229.jpg)
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287/_badguy_/bike%20stuff/GS/dscn2230.jpg)
Once I get the valves out I'll lap them and depending on what the consensus is here, I'll do whatever else needs to be done before putting it all back together.
If you do a search on here, Dgyver or someone describes how to make a valve spring compressor for probably less than $15? Other than that, the valve seal does look cracked. Set the valve on a really straight edge of a table, roll it slowly and you may see the valve face wobble. (Mine did) My bucket had a huge chip out of it. Once I got it replaced and lapped the valves, everything seems really good. Just waiting on some new shims to arrive.
Swap heads ...
If you would send a couple benjy's this way, I'll gladly find my fully decked, 3 angle cut all back to spec head and send you.
I've sold a few to people here - ry_guy and lopee come to mind ... my shop has good experience having done 1/2 dozen or so bike motors with me hovering over them. So these days I drop it off there and let them run with it.
Cool.
Buddha.
Can't remember off hand if I tried it on a GS but if you are just trying to remove the spring you can usually put the open end of a socket that is about the same diameter as the spring retainer on top of the retainer and whack it with a hammer to release the keepers (or "cotter valve" in Suzuki jargon). You will need a tool to re-install it though.
-Jessie
K why are you trying to get him to remove the valve without removing the head. The guide aint comming out wihtout dropping the head in an oven dude.
Anyway valve removal, yea put a long ass string in the chamber and it will hold the valve up. You can also put air in it @50-60 psi.
Cool.
Buddha.
I broke a sticking exhaust valve while cranking the engine with the starter one freezing cold morning on my 02 GS with 21k miles on it. My valve guide cracked like that and one half of it fell off. The guide was intact thru the head press fit area as only half of the part extending into the port was gone. I let it go that way since some grind off all the part of the guide sticking into the port area when making performance mods on car and bike engines.
I cleaned up the carbon, replaced the broken valve and lapped it and the others, replaced the tight sticking bucket that caused the valve crash, replaced the head and cylinder base gaskets, and buttoned it up. Have 75k miles on it now with no further engine problems and it never ran better.
My carbon buildup at 21k was not as bad as yours is, how many miles on your engine?
cboling - your thread is what inspired me to get working on this problem :thumb: Thanks for the tips. I ended up getting a valve spring compressor that was made for a car from my dad's buddy, so I'm gonna use that with a pipe a la dgyver.
Buddha - thanks for the offer, but I have more time than money at this point, so I'm going to see what I can do myself. However, I'm adding up the costs and I'll hit you up for that fancy head if things get too crazy.
Jessie - good tip on the valve removal. I had a feeling I'd be able to get them out, it was reinstalling that had me scratching my head. I gotta get up your way one of these days for a ride...
gsJack - thanks for the advice, I may let it go once I get a new valve if everything else seems fine. I'm sure replacing the valve guide would make things a lot more complicated here. As for the engine, I've only got 22.5K on it :oops: I'm guessing my not-so-great jetting has something to do with the carbon buildup.
I have a question about ordering buckets. The two intake buckets came out with no problems, but the two on the exhaust side needed more time in the oven to come out. I was thinking about replacing both of those if ...do I just order two buckets from bikebandit or a similar supplier? I know bikebandit doesn't differentiate between the intake and exhaust buckets even though they show separate index numbers for them in the diagram. It would be nice if my current shims would work, but I'm not holding my breath.
Good luck with the project! I'm sure we'll organize some more rides in the spring, get it running by then ;) I have a small stash of shims, check with me when you figure out what size and I might have an extra. Later
-Jessie
Edit: This is probably a Buddha question: Does a GS1100 use the same buckets as a GS500? I know the shims are the same diameter. If so, I may have some decent buckets you could use.
Oh I'll be riding through the winter when I get the chance...this isn't my only bike ;)
Thanks a ton for the offer, I'll let you know what I find out!
I believe the buckets are the same for all 4 valves. I ordered 1 and it fit fine. not sure I paid too much attention to the part numbers. You might have to heat it up a bit to get them back in. I can't remember if I did or not. They felt pretty darn tight when I got them back in but since I have had the bike running and getting ready to replace a couple of shims, the buckets turn really easily (not like before.)
Is the guide / seal actually cracked or is it caked with carbon?
I'm pretty sure it's cracked, but can't say for certain.
I could move the other exhaust bucket, so I'll probably leave it be. When I install the replacement, I think I'll put it in the freezer for a while and heat up the head. Should make things a little simpler.
Glad yours is working out :cheers:
Well, the valve is definitely bent.
Got a 3/4" ID PVC coupler and cut a notch out of it (thanks to cboling for the heads up, and to dgyver for the how-to :thumb:) then used that with the valve spring compressor. That got the job done.
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287/_badguy_/bike%20stuff/GS/DSCF8288.jpg)
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287/_badguy_/bike%20stuff/GS/DSCF8290.jpg)
When I tried pulling the valve out, there was some resistance. I looked at it and it seemed visibly bent, but that could've just been my eyes playing tricks on me.
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287/_badguy_/bike%20stuff/GS/DSCF8297.jpg)
So I put the valve back in the head and spun it (instead of on a table or something)...
http://s123.photobucket.com/albums/o287/_badguy_/bike%20stuff/GS/?action=view¤t=bentvalve.flv
Yep, definitely bent.
I also looked at the cracked guide - turns out it was cracked all the way around, but like gsJack's it was only where it was protruding from the head. I pushed on it with some pliers and it broke off. Since he's had another 50K out of his engine with a chunk missing, I think I'll try the same. I'll probably file it down first though.
crack
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287/_badguy_/bike%20stuff/GS/DSCF8302.jpg)
gone
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287/_badguy_/bike%20stuff/GS/DSCF8309.jpg)
Now I'll check the other exhaust valve since that bucket was a little tough to spin. if nothing else, it'll give me practice on reinstalling the valve.
Any Idea why a valve would bend without hitting the piston?
Valve will not hit the piston, it can hit the other valve. Check if the other one is bent.
BTW dont have to replace the guide. The race motors all have guides that have been shaved so nothign is sticking in tht port. Less obstruction to flow and ironically, less heat retained by the motor. Shave and grind all of em to the same shape.
Cool.
Buddha.
Good call on the valve collision...I'll check that when I go home. That dark spot on the valve does look like it could be a point of contact, as it's in the right location to have done the job.
I'm thinking more about swapping heads just due to costs involved. Would you PM me the details? I already have the gaskets, just waiting on ordering buckets and valves. I'm all about doing things myself for the experience and learning, but if it's gonna be cheaper to have a professionally done head, I might go that route.
Quote from: The Buddha on October 12, 2009, 01:19:50 PM
Swap heads ...
If you would send a couple benjy's this way, I'll gladly find my fully decked, 3 angle cut all back to spec head and send you.
I've sold a few to people here - ry_guy and lopee come to mind ... my shop has good experience having done 1/2 dozen or so bike motors with me hovering over them. So these days I drop it off there and let them run with it.
Cool.
Buddha.
This you mean ?
What details you need ?
Cool.
Buddha.
Yeah, details on the head you mentioned. I've never bought a head before, so I'm not sure what is included. Would I be supplying the valves, springs, etc? You said it's decked...I'm guessing this would bump up the compression ratio a hair - true? By a couple benjis, do you mean $200?
You were right about the valves hitting each other - here's the intake valve:
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287/_badguy_/bike%20stuff/GS/DSCF8314.jpg)
You wont be supplying nothing. OK cam shafts.
But I want the broken head.
I have these 8-10 ones I have to modify ...
I'll pull the head I have out, get pics etc. Yes 200 bucks. Shipping included, but you send yours @ your expense.
Decking is for better sealing with the new gasket etc, but it will bump it a hair. Make sure you time it right, though that 5 thou I took off wont affect anything.
Cool.
Buddha.
Cool, pictures would be great.
Any chance these would be new valves, or are they re-ground old valves from the previous owner of the head?
badguy
Thank you for posting all those great pictures.
BeerGarage
Quote from: badguy on October 16, 2009, 03:52:03 PM
Cool, pictures would be great.
Any chance these would be new valves, or are they re-ground old valves from the previous owner of the head?
3 angle cut from used head.
New valves cost 100 bucks for the 4, and dropping it in the old guide is useless, cos all the wear is the the bronze guide and not the steel valve. So you need new guides, so that is 250 bucks in just parts. Besides, these new valves will be hitting old seats - nope, you need to have new ones there too and ... well its pushing 300.
I would check all of em for proper wear and not being out of spec and re machine it all, but they are all old.
Cool.
Buddha.
BeerGarage - No problem :thumb: If you want pics of anything else while I'm in there, let me know and I'll do what I can.
Buddha - Sounds good, just curious. When you say new seats, you mean they'd need to be ground, right? Also, if the guides wear during use and the valve stems don't, is there really a difference between using new valves and old ones in that respect (ignoring the need to grind the valves and seats)?
I dont believe new seats need to be re gound after installing them. Maybe lap a little.
Seats are ground to make contact at the proper location and to sorta make full contact. Sealing is what you need.
Valves too are ground to match that. Unless the valve has a lot of wear @ the face, aka, its starting to burn, you dont need new valves. In the valve vs seat game, the valve will have more wear, its hanging in the mixture, and hence runs much much hotter. It also has a chance of burning if its not hitting the seat fully due to carbon, or you're running your valves very tight etc. If its just normal wear, clean and check and cut them both and fit and check. That works well, it should last almost as much as it did originally.
Guide vs valve - The guide is brass, the valve is hardended steel. If you're running normally, the wear should be mostly in the guide. However as it wears, especially if it wears perfectly round, it will acquire a film of oil and stop wearing beyond the limit. Of course the valve in some cases has a side load and that can totally cause the guide to get egg shaped. That will not retain oil film either and it will just keep wearing.
Of course your situation is the other way you can lose a guide.
You run new valves made from better material like kibblewhite sells cos you want to cut down face and seating area wear. You wont do much for the guide vs stem with that upgrade. The guides Kibblewhite makes are almost the same as stock if I remember. But anyway, better valve material is for the seat area wear.
That is about what I know, I am not an engine builder, nor do I play one on TV and I didn't stay at the holiday Inn last night. Done and dusted.
I have asked several questions to people who where working on my head and that was what I learned.
The factory usually does not cut a 3 angle valve job when new. They do a single angle. 3 is better, 5 is even better, but the 5 is so much harder to cut, and the gain from 3 to 5 is so small, none but the big $$$$ race teams do it.
Cool.
Buddha.
Thanks for the information :cheers:
How long do you think it might take to find that head you mentioned and/or get it sorted out?
If I didn't have to pull my truck's front end apart, I'd have it by now.
I am shooting for tommorow.
I'll let you know. Monday latest.
Cool.
Buddha.
Cool. No huge rush since I have a bike to ride in the meantime. I appreciate it!
Grrr, just got home. I will ahve to tommorow night.
Cool.
Buddha.
Yo Buddha, any word on the head?
When I said "no huge rush" I didn't mean I wanted it for Christmas :icon_mrgreen:
Not yet, but on its trail. Its in a small 4X8 area in my garage ... however you've not seen this garage, you will not believe what its got in that 4X8 area.
I found the caps etc ...
Cool.
Buddha.
Oh I know that a lot can fit in a 4x8 area...especially depending on how big that missing third dimension is...
400 ... yup ... low flying planes circle around it.
Cool.
Buddha.
Any of those planes have searchlights?
Gaaa ... sorry I am not finding it. 6 months ago I had the thing in my hand but didn't find the cam caps.
I'll prolly find it in a month when I upend the whole garage though.
Cool.
Buddha.
:icon_sad:
Ok, standing by.