OK here is the general thought I have.
Companies spend billions making all new crapola that greener. WTF. That makes you have to throw away what you have inot the scrap pile, or continue staying in the non green ...
I say screw that. Make parts that are greener as replacements.
The general premise is like this.
OK Chains and sprokets. made from metal, that crap takes a ton of energy to melt and manufacture etc etc.
So bikes that have chains - when they are dead, the replacements should be a direct fit belt. Why ? belt has a good bit of kevlar, aka carbon, the belt is a 1 time swap, and that means carbon is trapped in them, and its in there for good, and you dont melt steel and spend energy every year.
Then Gas tanks. The metal crap, yea we know. However they can be replaced with plastic, its easier and less energy to make and traps carbon. Plastic is hydrocarbons pretty much. As a bonus, wont rust. One time swap, unless you crash and tear it up.
So on and so on.
Of course all new bikes will have to be bikes that contain a lot of carbon - AKA, kevlar, plastic, carbon fiber, and be full of parts that can be swapped out for better parts in future. Like you dont have to toss the whole thing when the next generation of motors comes out with better efficiency. They should be made forwards and backwards compatible. You just swap a motor out and get better efficiency. Oh yea it has to use anything available, diesel, ethanol, gas etc etc. An electric optional motor should be available too.
Cool.
Buddha.
That's always been one of my problems with trying to convince people to trade in their old cars for newer efficient ones. One of the worst parts about cars is how much waste it makes to create them, as well as dispose of the old ones. Any time politicians push for things like that, it's 100% just to make themselves look better, and get some more cash for car companies. Anyone who went to a fancier school than I did and managed to get themselves into a federal position knows that.
Another thing that drives me nuts are hybrid SUVs. I want to punch everyone I see driving one. How can you pretend like you're trying to be responsible by buying a hybrid, but still be overwhelmed in living in excess by buying the biggest car you can find. 100% status symbol. SUVs got so big they couldn't make them any bigger, and people just wanted one more way to say "I'm better than you" to the rest of the SUV drivers.
If you want people to be more responsible just tax the hell out of gasoline.
Some years ago when all this was starting to get topical I remember seeing some T.V. interviewer talking to a prominent European "green" - The T.V. guy was enthusing about recycling and the green was not exactly getting swept along, this was obvious to watchers but apparently not the interviewer.
Eventually the green interupted and said that whilst recycling was OK it was not the best option, it was the fourth "re"
First - REpair, pretty obvious. rather like Budha is advocating.
Second - REfill, send ortake that wine/milk bottle, pickle jar or whatever and use it again for the same porpose.
Third - REuse, Find another use for something after you have finished with it without fundemental alteration. Sandals from old tyres, very popular in Africa, expanded polystyrene packaging becomes insulation etc,. etc,.
LAastly recyle. Old plastic bags into fleece and the like. Melting down glass bottles and jars to make bottles and jars is not a good example!
Unfortunatly we live in an age when very little gets repaired, bin it and get another, it's a throwaway society etc.
A friend of mine came here as a refugee from Albania some years ago and is a genius at fixing things that were not designed to be fixed, like he says when you are from a third-world country you have to.
It can be done if only we can get the big multi-nationals to take it on.
As for taxing gas, yes it would make people think a bit differently but here in UK it costs about a dollar sixty per litre and people still drive very silly cars.
Oh yea, tires into sandals are common in India too.
Ever seen sandals where the top is out of an old shoe that has lost its sole and the bottom from an old tire. I have even had em made if I recall.
If the companies were to build it right the shoe should remain a shoe, and you should be able to buy a sole made from a tire and put it on.
BTW I fix things that are considered throw away too.
I have opened and fixed black boxes off bikes. I have put one starter's planetary gears in another. So on. To me ease of repair is almost more important than anything else.
First though, it has to be useable as long as it can be. A chain is garbage, it will die when you spill gas on it and it washes out the lube in the O rings. To me that is crap design. OK in the 60's when they invented O ring chains yea it was the latest. Now we have belt, no reason to want to stay with a chain. On and on.
Cool.
Buddha.
I'd be really interested in a bike with a belt drive. Another reason I like Buell, just to drag another thread into this one...
They even started making bicycles with belt drives, but people are still pretty resistant to it, not to mention it only works on single speeds.
I don't know what people's problem is with their cars. I've never owned one, and would love to keep it that way, but I'll see how it goes. I only live 4 miles from where I work downtown, and the idea of getting in a car for a 10 minute drive just to park somewhere, and walk another 5-10 minutes doesn't even sound realistic to me, but everyone still thinks I'm crazy for taking a 15 minute bicycle ride and being able to lock up right behind the building. I bet with traffic that drive home would be a half hour, 20 of which would be your car idling in traffic, not to mention people's frustration level while I just get to cut through the traffic, and am still home in the same 15 minutes. My wife on the other hand only works 17 blocks from work, and still drives there every day rain or shine. I've been trying to transfer to an office 2 blocks from where she works so I can walk to work. I guess people just like different things, and will weigh that against their chances of dying from a poorly exercised heart when they're only 60....
Except in a buell it didn't quite work. Too much power for that narrow belt and several Idiot dealers swap them @10K. There were several buells that were on their second or third lifetime belt.
On a GS it makes perfect sense though, as does wider and smaller dia wheels so you can get decent high mile rubber and a lot of other stuff.
Cool.
Buddha.
innovation, or common sense ?
innovation is awesome. people get to push limits of technology, limits of longevity, limits of understanding. i'm for it.
then common sense blind sides everything. there is no need to innovate for buyers. they want a big, hog of an SUV, but they want a GREEN leaf on the back to prove it's the LATEST GREATEST GREEN SUV on the market, and can afford it. pffffft. i'll call em a fool to their faces.
****
on the subject of belts-
awesome awesome tech here. i killed a 20 (or so) year old belt at work a month or so ago. pulled on it with the 20 ton crane, when i thought i was running north. SNAP. 20 years of use gone in an instant.
if a belt can last 20 years in a completely non-expected form of service (lifting 150 lb jaws from vertical lathe) in a rigged up setting, a motrobike can prolly benefit from it i'd guess.
KILL GREEN PURCHASING - Give life to green living. Purchasing a shrink wrapped plastic (why are things shrink wrapped thrice if they're plastic anyway ? ) doesn't help a damned thing,:)
Oh yea, we like everything super super sanitary, even electronics ... yea like flies are swarming over our electronics.
I dunno, I like the soil on the potato, I dont care if I have to scrub it off. I also like banana's with spots and canatlopes with some sticky spots. Heck I bet they toss these in the trash.
Carbon fiber is pretty much a good way to sequester Carbon. So we should make every thign from it ... O0
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: The Buddha on October 16, 2009, 11:42:33 AM
Oh yea, tires into sandals are common in India too.
Ever seen sandals where the top is out of an old shoe that has lost its sole and the bottom from an old tire. I have even had em made if I recall.
If the companies were to build it right the shoe should remain a shoe, and you should be able to buy a sole made from a tire and put it on.
BTW I fix things that are considered throw away too.
I have opened and fixed black boxes off bikes. I have put one starter's planetary gears in another. So on. To me ease of repair is almost more important than anything else.
First though, it has to be useable as long as it can be. A chain is garbage, it will die when you spill gas on it and it washes out the lube in the O rings. To me that is crap design. OK in the 60's when they invented O ring chains yea it was the latest. Now we have belt, no reason to want to stay with a chain. On and on.
Cool.
Buddha.
hell i re-soled work boots wiht tire treat. damn that shaZam! worked great :bowdown:
I have to agree about shrink-wrap. In fact most packaging really brasses me off but worst of all is that bloody bubble packing stuff that you have to take a hefty craft knife and nibble at it to get it open, everything seems to come in it these days. Some more "traditional" products seem to have been over-packed for years, shirts for instance and the other day my son went into a 7/11 to but a tube of tomato puree, it was in a plastic tube in a cardboard box and the store guy said "do you want a bag!"
Aaaaaaaaaaargh!
Quote from: tt_four on October 16, 2009, 12:08:41 PM
They even started making bicycles with belt drives, but people are still pretty resistant to it, not to mention it only works on single speeds.
It's getting there. I'm not much into bicycles, but I saw an article in an engineering trade mag featuring these: http://www.carbondrivesystems.com/ (http://www.carbondrivesystems.com/). For gearing, I understand you can get internal gears for the rear hub, though they are more expensive and you can't get 35,453 gears like a chain drive. A few manufacturers are starting to offer these belt drive bikes. I think it will catch on yet.
Im a nature boy / greenie.... :icon_mrgreen:
I only buy used stuff, thrift store clothes, use paper towels til they are no more etc....
Ive used a bicycle to go to work in three states and now only use the GS to go to
work cuz its 25 miles away, a little too far for the bicycle. Many prominent civilizations
have come to an end throughout history by their own doing...if we dont stop being
such selfish and chronic consumers and over-breeders I see this one ending pretty
soon too...We are quickly outgrowing our resources and pouring cement in places
it was never meant to be :cookoo:
Quote from: manofthefield on October 18, 2009, 08:37:34 AM
Quote from: tt_four on October 16, 2009, 12:08:41 PM
They even started making bicycles with belt drives, but people are still pretty resistant to it, not to mention it only works on single speeds.
It's getting there. I'm not much into bicycles, but I saw an article in an engineering trade mag featuring these: http://www.carbondrivesystems.com/ (http://www.carbondrivesystems.com/). For gearing, I understand you can get internal gears for the rear hub, though they are more expensive and you can't get 35,453 gears like a chain drive. A few manufacturers are starting to offer these belt drive bikes. I think it will catch on yet.
The hub gears, like sturney archer of old. Had a good 5 speed hub once, sold it for some decent $ ~20 years ago.
Cool.
Buddha.
I'm all for environmental health and products, and bicycle riding - but I don't happen to live in a world that has the infrastructure to support these things. You may complain all you want about hybrid SUVs (which I think serve their purpose IF you actually need an SUV), but the current generation is pushing towards renewable resources and migrating back into the cities (which is where you need to live if you want to use a bicycle) - and NOT buying things they don't need. Once this generation (or the next or the one after) gets into the power positions I think you will start to see major change. Plus, once a lot of the technology and science that is being researched and developed today matures, I (again) think you will be living in a green(er) utopia.
There is little point in agonizing over how long it is taking. It seems to me that those who want change forget how long it takes to actually achieve it. We've only been worrying about the environment (for arguments sake) for 40 years. How long did it take to even get decent working/living conditions for even 25% of the world (if we have even achieved that much)? How long did it take to figure out how to burn hydrocarbons and air to generate power (in the general sense, not electricity per se)? I would say it only took the ~2.5 million years since the tools were invented. Why do I use these exaggerations? To highlight that many of us tend to live in the moment. Yes we need change, we always do. But we have to remember that change is slow, especially when an organism is as large and complex as our civilization.
Hopefully some of that made sense. Let your kids know how you feel and try and get them to believe the same way and I think we'll be OK. To be honest, this situation reminds me of the late 1800s and early 1900s in America where the newly rich people (from whatever source) bought extravagant things and lived decadent lifestyles... there was a crash, then the next generation went completely against that with sensible purchases and an eye towards decency again. Now, many parents (the sons and daughters of the sensible ones) had lived beyond their means, and the crash of 2008 happened and their kids (born in the 70s-90s) are now reacting against that lifestyle. Interesting parallels...
Baby boomers vs gen X'ers. I doubt its going to play out like you're thinking it would.
Moving back to the cities is not a very popular practise. Its got more talk than action. I think we would see them move back to suburbia when they get older. Young people move to cities, older ones move to suburbs, even older move to Florida or where its warm. I suspect the Real estate crash and the retiring baby boomers will not have a chance to sell and move to where its warm. Its gonna be a struggle.
Cool.
Buddha.
Hmmm, the growth of cities is ararming in many way yet sensible in others. I think Cairo is now the world's largest and certainly has the fastest growth rate. It is very difficult to see how the surrounding area can feed and support such expansion. We might be going the way of the Inca cities.
They dont have cars there. They walk or take a bus. You live on the outskirts and you'd be seriously in trouble.
US is the opposite. We'll live in the sticks and drive 80 miles 1 way to work in a 1 occupant car. No problem.
Cool.
Buddha.