Hi everyone!
Just yesterday I picked up a new to me 2003 GS500E. I've only ridden small singles in the past, so I'm pretty excited about this motorbike. What's more exciting is that the bike is non-operational, so I get to work to bring it back to life! I have experience with real basic motorcycle maintenance like valve checks, swapping rubber, chain sprockets, fluids, but have never needed to split the cases.
Anywho, I've actually been lurking awhile now, have been accruing some bits of knowledge here and there, but while there is a vast repository of information to be had with the search function, I thought I would illicit some input from some of you more experienced GSers as to what you think of my current situation.
So the situation: bike is registered non-operational. The previous owner I bought it from said the bike developed a strange ticking noise, which persisted for a few days until while riding along the freeway, the bike seemed to lose power, and developed some type of engine knock and died. He pulled over, tried restarting, which he described produced fart-wincing sounds--he wasn't much more explicit then that. This was back in July, bike's apparently been sitting since then. Also, when I asked him if there was sufficient oil at the time of occurrence, or if he checked, he said he didn't know and that was something the previous owner's must have done. He logged around 2K miles in the time he owned it.
So I kinda eased myself into the bike yesterday night. I took off the small cover on the RHS and was able to turn the engine over without the spark plugs in. Spark plugs looked pretty baked, but intact. Drained the oil, and maybe a little less then a quart came out of the bike (smelled very richly of gasoline). I decided to check LHS cover, after reading several threads about the so-called "Goats syndrome" (that still cracks me up). Fortunately, the epoxy seems untouched and everything quite pristine. However, while examining the components, I noticed this little recess behind that big gear behind the flywheel, and thought maybe what I was seeing was a pretty black and toasty crankshaft/connecting rod? I'm not sure, and I don't have a Clymer's manual yet (it's on the way)--but it seems like it. Given that the previous owner couldn't tell me when he last filled the oil in the bike, how much came out, and if in fact, I'm looking at what I think I'm looking at (I browsed through some threads where some GS500E's were oil starved, and the pictures of the connecting rods sure seemed dark like this!)--pretty feasible that I will have to replace the crankshaft and connecting rods, and possible "re-sieve" the cylinder wall? My understanding of "re-sieving" is that a little bit of material will be cut out to make it smooth, but does this mean I will need new piston rings? Is there anything else I might look out for?
Here are a few pictures too:
No Goatsie!
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/kevinkuei/DSC01781.jpg)
This is the recess I'm talking about. Is that thing in there the crankshaft?
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/kevinkuei/DSC01787.jpg)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/kevinkuei/DSC01785.jpg)
Also, I noticed in just a few spots on the casing, this wrinkly texture. Is this from overheating?
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/kevinkuei/DSC01771.jpg)
Thanks in advance for the input!
Kevin
Yea I believe its the crank - the cheeks of the crank to be exact.
Cool.
Buddha.
Oh it died from a rod knock.
OK I have 2 that are in similar situation.
Pay for postage and they are yours.
Yea ... garbage.
Take it apart and spend 800 bucks and 100 hours of labor, or buy another bike that runs for 1000 and ride.
Cool.
Buddha.
some people enjoy 100 hours of labor Budha. and an extra 200 bucks is a bonus.
Hey Buhdda,
I found a pair of connecting rods for $20 shipped, and think I found a reasonable crankshaft for about $25 + shipping. I haven't figured in gaskets yet and don't know how much honing will be. What am I missing (of the $800?). While I don't mind investing the time for the rebuild, I don't want to spend gratuitous amounts of money! $1000 I WISH!!!! I see them on craigslist adds in other parts of the country, but most GS's that are in pretty good condition (aesthetically and mechanically) around here seem closer to 2K. That's why I got this project bike. It has new tires, good battery and stuff already (will need a new chain), but I was under the impression it would be relatively economic to fix.
Kevin
OK you know if your cases are not eaten where the bearings died ? cos on one of mine, they were.
The other one - I aint looking in there, I am tossing that motor posthaste.
Maybe I should sell you my cases if they are good ... mu haha haha haha ...
You'd have to get bearings to fit the crank you're buying and the cases you've got. In effect you'd prolly have to get everythign back to stock cos there are no oversize bearings.
And you're cheating by buying rods and crank used and cheap. That way you will not spend 800 ... only like 3-400 ... but yea, mic that crankshaft and get back to me, there are too many crooks who will hand sand the crank journals to they look nice and shiny and palm it off as good.
BTW you see streaks of black or blue near the journal on the crank, dead giveaway its garbage that has been hand sanded to look nice. That is from over heating, and that always accompanies a rod bearing burning up. When the motor is cooled off it will even act normal and turn over well.
Cool.
Buddha.
Crankshaft journals very very rarely survive a shagged out bearing. The book quotes a service limit of 31.976 to 32.000mm. Loose enough metal to take it over 32.000mm and it becomes a paperweight/doorstop/boat-anchor. Buying blind means you are taking a BIG BIG chance brother. No one strips down a GS motor for spares when it can be sold as runner, the one you are about to stump up on could have come from a bike just like yours.
Sledge dude, if you give him good advice like this you're ruining my $$ making opportunity and well ... he'd never spend the 800 bucks and the 100 hours I have told him to spend.
You really dont want him to give up with $ still in his pocket do you ...
Atleast that's the principle the world's economy works on ... you dont want to be caught dead with ammo in your pocket ... yes, unfortunately you're fighting a forest fire, and all the bullets you shot, killed the fire fighters ... who like idiots brought a fire hose to a gun fight ... ha ha ha stupid people, eat lead you funny yellow uniform wearing man, lets see if your hat can save you now ...
Cool.
Buddha.
Hi Kevin,
Welcome to our little GS500 world. :)
Here are my thoughts on your 2003 bike.
First, tell us how much it cost you to buy?
This is essentially a $50 motorcycle you have. And even that might be too much to have paid.
The reason?
Engines cost a lot of money to fix properly, even if you do the work yourself.
If it was oil-starved, then crank, rods, crank and rod bearings, pistons and more are all immediately suspect for major damage. The cylinder bores could be damaged, too. Re-sleeving is only possible if there are replacement cylinder insert sleeves to be had and on a low-volume engine like this, I sincerely doubt that is the case.
Used parts are out there, but like others here on the board said, their condition is suspect until you can measure and inspect them properly with a micrometer and other precision instruments.
If you can find used parts like a crank, rods etc., you will have to know if they came out of a similarly trashed engine. That's likely so buyer beware.
You'll have to carefully measure and examine everything after a careful cleaning.
Start your parts list with piston rings and a full gasket set with head gasket, cylinder base gasket, oil pan gasket (you need to pull the oil pan out and inspect the oil pump and clean it all well due to the debris from the friend engine) and every seal and other gasket.
Spark plugs. Oil. Oil filter and o-ring and drain plug washer. It's possible the cylinders are scored and will need boring ($100 or so perhaps) and then new oversized pistons and rings. New pistons require new piston pins and new piston pin circlips. If you remove the pistons from the rods you will need new piston pin circlips anyway. You'll have to check valves and vale guides, but you might as well replace the valve guide seals while you are in there. Check the valve sealing by turning the cylinder head upside down and pour kerosene into the chambers. If it leaks past the valves and comes though the intake or exhaust ports, you have bent or burned valves that will need to be replaced, as well as cut and lapped in.
An "economical job," as you called it, this is not.
And you haven't even added in the new chain you said it needs ($100 plus $45 for new sprockets).
There will be other things it needs. There are always other things that you missed when inspecting it all.
We don't even know about the other intangibles like is the transmission OK, is the engine debris in the oil pump etc.
So add up the parts, the machine shop work (valve job will likely be $100 to $200), extras and all of a sudden the bike you might have bought for $500 thinking you were getting a STEAL is now a $1500 to $2000 project and doesn't even include your labor or time.
And anything you can't do yourself, add more money to have someone else do it for you.
All of this can be done, certainly.
But often basket cases are way more money and work than you ever estimate.
I take that back.
They are ALWAYS more money and time than you estimate.
I used to work at a motorcycle shop and saw this happen all the time.
:)
All that being said, just go into it with eyes open.
I have done this before and never found it to be a good deal, compared to buying a nice bike at a good price.
I know you said it seems like a fun project, and it may well be, but if you want a nice bike at a reasonable price, then buy one that is a nice bike at a reasonable price. Now is a good time to buy with winter here.
Good luck and let us know what's happening. :)
Yours,
Trwhouse
When you're ready to part it out, hit me up first :icon_lol:
Wow, those were all very insightful responses! Thanks everyone. I guess this coming weekend, I'll be popping the engine out and inspecting all the parts to make sure of everything I need. I already bought the connecting rods, and was about to jump the gun on a crankshaft, but think I'll be asking the seller a little more about the history the bike it came from (The parts sure did look shiney though! lol). I've got a micrometer that I used for checking the shims on some of my older bikes that I can use to make sure everything within spec too.
Oh, and I got the bike for $400. I'm definitely seeing all the $$$$$'s adding up now though! Thanks again everyone for the humor and input. I'll be sure to update as I dig in deeper--also if I just get bogged down and decide to part it. :D
I guess I'm stating the obvious and I might have missed it in someone else's post but it sounds like a used engine would be the most cost effective cure.
-Jessie
OK put a pic up of the crank.
If its got that deep purple color like your crank did in the pic through the hole through the left engine case ... its dead as well.
Oddly, the heat doesn't hurt the crank, they are heat treated, more aint hurting.
Its the fact that the heat came from the bearing ...
Cool.
Buddha.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2001-SUZUKI-GS500-ENGINE-TRANS-ONLY-11-600-MILES_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem483822237cQQitemZ310179406716QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
if link doesnt work its a 01 gs500 motor with 11k miles and comes with a 6 months unlimited war. for 695.00 buy it now. prolly your best bet.
I would look at putting an engine in it. I paid $400 for a running engine with 12K miles on it. Keep an eye on fleabay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1994-Suzuki-GS500E-GS500-GS-500-ENGINE-MOTOR_W0QQitemZ140362365745QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorcycles_Parts_Accessories?hash=item20ae3fbb31 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1994-Suzuki-GS500E-GS500-GS-500-ENGINE-MOTOR_W0QQitemZ140362365745QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorcycles_Parts_Accessories?hash=item20ae3fbb31)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2001-SUZUKI-GS500-ENGINE-TRANS-ONLY-11-600-MILES_W0QQitemZ310179406716QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorcycles_Parts_Accessories?hash=item483822237c (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2001-SUZUKI-GS500-ENGINE-TRANS-ONLY-11-600-MILES_W0QQitemZ310179406716QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorcycles_Parts_Accessories?hash=item483822237c)
These are on there now. I wouldn't pay $695 unless it was close enough to check out personally before bidding, but the other one may go cheap enough.
I am going to add my 2 cents for the used engine.
I met a guy on this board (had a pleasure to ride to Harriman Stat Park together last fall) who swapped an engine in his 2005 gs500. I believe that he paid around $500 for the engine, that he found in junkyard. Engine had less than 1000 miles on it.
So it looks like the used engine is no brainer, unless you really enjoy splitting yours apart and doing all of that work...
good luck with whichever direction you choose, and welcome to this awesome forum :cheers:
Hi again Kevin,
Oh, there's one more thing I meant to point out about this bike that you bought.
Your "non-operational" title may very well limit the bike's value in the future.
So if that is essentially a salvage title, I wouldn't invest much in it because it's value is low to future buyers and you may have trouble insuring or licensing it depending on your state of residence.
Best wishes,
Trwhouse
If you really want to do it, do it. It's your money and your time. The advice you have gotten so far should be enough for you to make your decision, but maybe some pics of the insides will help, too.
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=45697.0
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=43550.0
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=41982.0
The "non-operational" is a registration thing in California. California requires all vehicles to stay permanently registered. So even if you have a broken-down '75 volvo that you plan on keeping in storage for awhile, you still have to register it every year with the DMV. Instead of paying full registration fees, you can register it "non-operational", which is cheaper, but then you can't drive it on California state roads until you "fully" register it again, but it still counts as being registered.
Hi Brendan,
Thanks for the update on the registration.
They do everything differently in California, don't they? :)
Best wishes,
Trwhouse
And they will charge several 100 to re register somethign that has lapsed.
Sellers lie about "the DMV doesn't know about this" Or "Its so old, its no been registered in so many years its out of their system" ... Nope. They dont time it out, and they dont forget and they dont "too old" anything.
Cool.
Buddha.
Hey Paulcet, thanks for posting those links! Those are some especially thorough and informative picture tutorials that I can definitely use later. I don't think I'll be doing anywhere as near a clean or perfect a job as those fellows though!
Trwhouse, you're correct in inferring it's a salvage title--but that doesn't bother me too much since I'm not too concerned about resale value. Actually, the way it's probably going to work out right now is either the GS ends up being one of my main rides and I'll ride the crap out of it for years to come--or, my friend who's been looking for a GS500 will buy it from me, and as his first bike, he's told me he doesn't mind that it's a salvage title and would intend to keep it for quite awhile (it's funny about the salvage titles--I actually bought my car, also a salvage title from my friend!).
Good point about getting it registered as operational again--didn't even think about that! $$$$$$$$$$$$ :icon_eek:
Anyways, spent some time this evening getting the engine out. What a bear! I don't think I would have been able to get it out if my friend hadn't been there to help me lift it. Haven't split the cases yet, but I've cracked the lid. The insides smell horrible, like burnt rubber.
Oh yeah, I made a mistake earlier, it's a 2001 GS!
Here's a few pictures:
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/kevinkuei/DSC01788.jpg)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/kevinkuei/DSC01791.jpg)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/kevinkuei/DSC01800.jpg)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/kevinkuei/DSC01802.jpg)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/kevinkuei/DSC01803.jpg)
Also, what's the function of this wire meshamajig?
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/kevinkuei/DSC01804.jpg)
Its there to separate oil from air ... like a vapor separator.
Cool.
Buddha.
Ah makes sense.
By the way, this may seem like a silly question, but I'm in the process of removing the head right now, and the eight 10mm bolts that are holding it on are incredibly tight. I can't seem to get them to come loose with a breaker bar. Well, on one, after applying a lot of force, it seemed to budge just a very small amount--barely noticeable, but I felt the slop, and then I couldn't budge it anymore it seemed. I skimmed over the service manual, and it says that i should untighten them evenly across in reverse sequence of their numbering. My question then: is if that barely perceptible microsclop I felt is normal--and that I have to feel that slop as I go over each bolt in reverse sequence, and eventually, everything will be loose enough to take the head off? Or am I going about this completely the wrong way and should just borrow an impact driver?
Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving to everyone! :D
Kevin
Hi Kevin,
I'm not sure about your description about "microslop," but you will feel the bolts loosen as you untighten them unless there is some reason that they are seized.
Did the bike live near sea air previously?
I would use a long rachet or breaker bar to untighten them.
And yes, you loosen each bolt one at a time, a little at a time, so that you don't warp the cylinder head as you remove it. It's the same thing you do when you install the cylinder head -- you torque the bolts a bit at a time until they are all at the proper torque. This is just backward when you are removing it.
Also, there is a bolt in the front of the head -- don't forget to loosen it as well or you won't get the head off.
Take your time, and do it properly.
Good luck,
Trwhouse
Got the nuts off, but damn were they on there (that or I'm really weak!). I had to put the engine up against a wall and really apply my weight on a 15" breaker bar to start cracking it loose (lol, my knees have carpet burns from it!). Loosened all the nuts as the service manual described and have them off now, but now the head doesn't seem to want to slide off. Seems stuck, dry gasket, too much heat previously fused it or something. The book mentioned using a rubber mallet to knock it loose, but that doesn't seem to work. I've whacked it a few times already (with a force I feel comfortable isn't deforming or damaging anything) but it hasn't broken loose yet or anything. Not sure what I'm going to do about that yet. I'd like to take a screwdriver and hammer to it, but don't want to tear up the seating. Anyone have suggestions for extracting head? Nuts are off now.
Bike is from Oakland, might have gotten some sea air, but the other parts on the bike don't seem as corroded as a sea-cerca bike would seem to impressionate.
Thanks!!
Kevin
Okay, I've pulled the head! I had to use a hammer and a piece of wood cut in the shape of a wedge to finally knock it off.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/kevinkuei/DSC01806.jpg)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/kevinkuei/DSC01808.jpg)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/kevinkuei/DSC01811.jpg)
The cylinder walls will definitely need to be honed/bored out.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/kevinkuei/DSC01817.jpg)
Also, here's the likely culprit alast! That black little flower sprouting from the crankshaft/connecting rod area is made out of metal. I'm guessing that's what's left of the bearing?
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/kevinkuei/DSC01823.jpg)
Haven't checked the pistons, or valves yet, but will once I have the case split open and have looked over everything else to assess $$$$$$$$.
Also, now I feel REALLY stuck on getting the clutch casing off. I've got the rotor out and all the bolts along the exterior that hold it in off, but it's like it's bonded together, and not budging. Ive tried concussive persuasion with a screwdriver and hammer and all I've managed to do is make some pretty etchings along the cover. :icon_mrgreen: lolway
Anyways, I'll dribble some penetrating oil along the gasket. Not sure if that'll help or what, but I'm definitely too pooped to do anything else tonight. If anyone has some suggestions, let me know and I'll try it if it's within my capability! I imagine if I had some vice to hold the main block in place, and some super suction cups/epoxy handles pulling the case in one direction perfectly parallel with the dowels, plus the added force vector of a slanted screwdriver getting pounded by a hammer, it would come off, but that's just my imagination.
Goodnight everyone! Hope you all had a nice thanksgiving feast,
Kevin
Wait till you get to the flywheel.....ooooohhhh its gonna be fun for ya` :thumb:
Quote from: kevink on November 27, 2009, 12:29:17 AM
Also, now I feel REALLY stuck on getting the clutch casing off. I've got the rotor out and all the bolts along the exterior that hold it in off, but it's like it's bonded together, and not budging. Ive tried concussive persuasion with a screwdriver and hammer and all I've managed to do is make some pretty etchings along the cover. :icon_mrgreen: lolway
Did you see the 2 bolts under the contact breaker cover? Good luck!
-Jessie
Yea cyls are DOA, the head also looks horrible ... valves have carbon or is that edge feathered, AKA it has started burning. I once saw a BMW that had exhaust valves that were looking like they were eaten by rats. Sorta lost my faith in them then. Of course I knew kawi's did that ... just was a shock that BMW did too.
Either way, your crank, rods and possibly pistons are toast.
The part the pin goes into checn the side ways play the pistons have right there. If its excessive, I mean over 1/2mm or so, its gonna have to all be replaced. Rods and pistons. I know cos the 2 I split with bad rod bearings were both that way.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: The Buddha on November 27, 2009, 09:48:21 AM
Yea cyls are DOA, the head also looks horrible ... valves have carbon or is that edge feathered, AKA it has started burning. I once saw a BMW that had exhaust valves that were looking like they were eaten by rats. Sorta lost my faith in them then. Of course I knew kawi's did that ... just was a shock that BMW did too.
Either way, your crank, rods and possibly pistons are toast.
The part the pin goes into checn the side ways play the pistons have right there. If its excessive, I mean over 1/2mm or so, its gonna have to all be replaced. Rods and pistons. I know cos the 2 I split with bad rod bearings were both that way.
Cool.
Buddha.
Just checked, and it looks to be just carbon, thankfully! Will also check the play at the piston pin once I get the cases split!
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on November 27, 2009, 06:59:34 AM
Did you see the 2 bolts under the contact breaker cover? Good luck!
-Jessie
OMG, I didn't even see that! Thanks for pointing that out. Case came apart with a single whack once I got those two bolts out.
Thanks everyone,
Kevin
Quote from: kevink on November 27, 2009, 02:53:19 PM
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on November 27, 2009, 06:59:34 AM
Did you see the 2 bolts under the contact breaker cover? Good luck!
-Jessie
OMG, I didn't even see that! Thanks for pointing that out. Case came apart with a single whack once I got those two bolts out.
Thanks everyone,
Kevin
Don't feel bad, the only reason I said to check that is because I missed them the first time I took that cover off :oops: At least you didn't break anything prying :thumb:
-Jessie
Hi everyone,
Just thought I would post an update.
Today, I had set out to pull the clutch hub and flywheel and hopefully split the cases. I managed to get the clutch hub off very smoothly without a clutch holder by improvising with a piece of wood and two of the bolt holes that hold the clutch springs in.
I also prepared a makeshift flywheel extractor, using a metal bracket, bolt coupler from home depot ($4) and the rear axle bolt as per the Cylmer manual's directions, but to my discovery, the rear axle is NOT a perfect fit for the threads! it's too big--or the threads on the flywheel are too small. Anyways, I measured the bolt, and it is indeed 1.5mm diameter, but for whatever reason, they don't mate, which sucks because now the hardware store is closed! >:( >:( Well, I'll bring the bolt with me tomorrow. Hopefully I can find one that is metric and about the same length for cheap, otherwise I might just buy one of those gear puller gizmos and return it when I'm done.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/kevinkuei/DSC01826.jpg)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/kevinkuei/DSC01827.jpg)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/kevinkuei/DSC01828.jpg)
Are the little striations on the back of this normal? Or is the early sign of fatigue and cracking?
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/kevinkuei/DSC01829.jpg)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/kevinkuei/DSC01832.jpg)
I was so excited to use it too! lol
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/kevinkuei/DSC01833.jpg)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/kevinkuei/DSC01834.jpg)
Better picture of the back of clutch basket, and I circled the marks I'm referring to in green.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/kevinkuei/Clutchhubstriations-1.jpg)
I was just cleaning up the cylinder head a bit when I spotted these little pock marks around one of the rings. It almost looks like someone took a punch and just whacked a bunch of these tiny craters around the seal. I'm wondering if I should be worried about this, or do you guys think it's okay once I put on a new gasket and seal it up?
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/kevinkuei/DSC01835.jpg)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/kevinkuei/DSC01836.jpg)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/kevinkuei/DSC01841.jpg)
Hi again,
Oh, it's not looking pretty in there, bub. :)
That looks to me to be metal damage from pieces of metal from the bad bearing and other damage that literally was bombarding the insides of your cylinders and cylinder head while it was getting thrown up and down and around by the still-running engine. That area of the cylinder head is inside the head gasket circle, so it is there as a squish area for the cylinder's charge so it is able to be compressed before the spark plug fires the incoming fuel air mixture. That should be all nice and flat and smooth.
I think that your broken metal fragments essentially "grenaded" the small pieces of metal up and into the head, causing the damage.
And no, it shouldn't be looking like that.
As I said in my earlier posts, none of this should shock you. This kind of engine bearing failure typically causes massive damage which will be very expensive to fix, even if you do it yourself.
Good luck.
We are all curious to see what the rest of the engine will look like, but it appears that your parts list is getting longer and longer.
Before rebuilding this, I'd truly take a long and careful look at the parts and prices and labor costs for things you can't do, then start looking for a replacement engine that is in excellent shape. Even then, you have no guarantees.
On to the crank, man!
:)
Best wishes,
Trwhouse
Quote from: Trwhouse on November 29, 2009, 09:46:21 AM
Hi again,
Oh, it's not looking pretty in there, bub. :)
That looks to me to be metal damage from pieces of metal from the bad bearing and other damage that literally was bombarding the insides of your cylinders and cylinder head while it was getting thrown up and down and around by the still-running engine. That area of the cylinder head is inside the head gasket circle, so it is there as a squish area for the cylinder's charge so it is able to be compressed before the spark plug fires the incoming fuel air mixture. That should be all nice and flat and smooth.
I think that your broken metal fragments essentially "grenaded" the small pieces of metal up and into the head, causing the damage.
And no, it shouldn't be looking like that.
As I said in my earlier posts, none of this should shock you. This kind of engine bearing failure typically causes massive damage which will be very expensive to fix, even if you do it yourself.
Good luck.
We are all curious to see what the rest of the engine will look like, but it appears that your parts list is getting longer and longer.
Before rebuilding this, I'd truly take a long and careful look at the parts and prices and labor costs for things you can't do, then start looking for a replacement engine that is in excellent shape. Even then, you have no guarantees.
On to the crank, man!
:)
Best wishes,
Trwhouse
Yeah, I thought I got a good deal on the bike, but the more I'm digging into it, the more I feel like I paid too much, or really just didn't know what i was getting into. I'm still hopeful I can get it running without too much more $ though.
I checked the freeplay where the piston pins insert into the pistons by holding the rods firmly and trying to get some vertical freeplay. LHS side was nice and snug, but I detected maybe just a little bit of microslop on the RHS. That, or maybe the piston sliding side to side as I tried holding it threw my senses off. However, when I was cleaning the pistons up, I noticed that one of them (same side as the pocked up cylinder), had the same marks over the head of the piston. I'm not familiar with this kind of stuff, but do you guys think I need to replace the piston or cylinder head because of the marks? I'm having a hard time imagining once I have things cleaned up that they will effect the running much (except if there are pockmarks along piston edges which I didn't see), unless there's something I'm missing. What do you guys think?
EDIT: Attached photo. And on second look, does appear to have some marks sort of along the edge. Salvageable still?
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/kevinkuei/DSC01845.jpg)
Okay, so I just went out to the garage and placed the piston on the cylinder heads. The pock marks seem to line up real well. But this was on the RHS, bearing still appears to be good on this side and no discoloration on crankshaft. Move over to the LHS, and the bearing is toast and crankshaft discolored. No pock marks on piston or head. I'm starting to get the impression that they are maybe unrelated occurrences. id est, the pock marks might have been something falling into combustion chamber from spark plug hole (since spark plugs and valves are intact. I can't imagine how the bearing made it's way up past the cylinder walls too as the pistons seem pretty clean). Aside from the pock marks, the piston itself and rings seem pretty good, so I'm just going to clean up the pock marks as best I can with some emery cloth and file and reuse them. Oh yes, the freeplay I think I felt earlier was from where the connecting rod attached to the crankshaft.
That suggests contact between piston and head. I've never seen that ... not even on one wiht a knackered beairng ... WTF happened to this motor ... detonation ... but well that will blow a hole in the piston ... not this.
Wasn't there a gasket to protect this ...
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: The Buddha on November 29, 2009, 07:25:04 PM
That suggests contact between piston and head. I've never seen that ... not even on one wiht a knackered beairng ... WTF happened to this motor ... detonation ... but well that will blow a hole in the piston ... not this.
Wasn't there a gasket to protect this ...
Cool.
Buddha.
Hey Buddha, I was thinking that whatever fell into the combustion chamber, just got sandwiched by the piston and cylinder head. Not sure if they actually touched or not but I'm sort of assuming there's a very small clearance when the piston is fully extended up and whatever was in there, maybe rocks or something created those pock marks/pits on both sides (correct me if i'm wrong). I just figure if they did actually touch, the head would really be screwed up and I would be dealing with much more catastrophic damage.
I am definitely kind of confused now when trying to piece together what I'm looking at with the PO's story. Was the sound he was hearing little bits of rocks getting turned around in the cylinder, and the death of his engine just a culmination of him not putting any oil in the bike the whole time he owned it? Apparently, when he tried firing it up after pulling to the freeway, it did run, but he turned it off because of some bad sound, and thereafter let it sit. But the bearing, despite looking obviously fried, still moves around okay, so if those bits of rocks were still in the cylinder after the fact, I don't understand why the sound would be any worse to warrant him not wanting to keep using it. I R relaly konfused.
Hi again,
There were no "rocks" in this engine.
The gouges, as I said, were made by metal fragments that were grenaded into the metal on the piston crown and the cylinder head.
It was metal, broken pieces of metal from the engine bearing failure most likely, that did this.
Yours,
Trwhouse
>:( Yeesh. That type of piston / head damage is dirt common in 2-stroke bikes that grenade a piston.
What I'm not understanding is how bearing fragments could get into the combustion chamber, which on a 4-stroke is technically sealed from the bottom end. I think it's more likely those bits are parts of the piston that chipped off from a soft seize due to overheating.
That said, as long as the valve seats are OK (which is questionable) the rest of that stuff should clean up on the head.
It sounds like this is a learning experience for you on bike engines. More power to you; I've torn down my share of these too. I think a new engine would be the way to go on this economically, though.
OK wait ... a bad rod bearing will let the piston float ... a piston moving upward is actually getting shoved up by the other piston moving down, when the crank reaches TDC, its the bearing's job to get the rod to stop and start moving down. With a eaten up bearing, you can contact the piston into the head.
However ... I dunno for sure ... and what was the gasket doing ... OK it may have been the thing that made those metallic marks ...
I would rate teh pistons as dead, the head as a very likely dead, you deck it 5 thou and if the marks disappear, that is OK, beyond that you cant deck it without well ... you can but it starts to bump up compression and cam chain fit.
Anyway your head-piston contact can be due to rod bearing failure. Though both of mine were not that way.
Cool.
Buddha.
That scarring is on the edge of the combustion chamber. Unless the head is warped, I'd do a careful clean and polish of the scored area with emery cloth / file / knife / deburr tool / whatever, staying out of the gasket area, rather than decking the head down.
Just get the impacted chunks of piston out and flatten it up; pockmarks won't have a marked impact on performance. It will take a while by hand, but if time's not an issue then have at. Polish the rest of the combustion chamber while your at it.
The caveat is the valve seats; if the seats look like the rest of the head edge then the head's probably toast, unless you can grind a new seat.
....
You know, I'm looking back over the pics. I'm not convinced that the head / piston damage is related to the failure. There should be chunks of piston missing and I'm not seeing it. It looks like something (rock / screw / metal) fell into the intake, got chewed a bit and spit out. I think those pistons are probably salvagable with a clean up as above if the bearing surface isn't out of spec. It well may be.
Heck, the bore's far from perfect but I've seen worse in running engines.
I realize I'm not exactly advocating the highest quality rebuild, but I'd be tempted to clean and reuse some of those bits.
The size and bore of the GS head almost requires a deck even if its perfectly running and was opened up for no reason.
The decking is to promote gasket seal wihtout having to over torqued. Its just making it perfectly flat ... you're confusing it with milling the head. That is for performance, decking is for mating wiht gasket.
The piston IMHO will develop hot spots if its not nice and smooth, will make it detonate. I dunno if it can be polished, but I'd get new cos 20 bucks over the cost of rings is a full on wiseco set.
Cool.
Buddha.
Not sure if Kevin is even working on this anymore... :)
OK, I looked around. A set of Suzuki OEM rings is $30 / piston. O/S OEM pistons with rings are around $75-100 / pc.
I can't find a Wiseco piston that will fit the GS500, much less one for $50 (or $20 over the set of rings.) Most Wiseco pistons seem to run more like $120 / pc for other bikes. And I haven't found another aftermarket one.
What am I missing?
Hah! I don't get intimidated that quick! lol, Actually yeah, I was demoralized for a bit, but this is going to be my friends bike as much as mine so I've been conferring with him about what to do. Plus, I have finals coming up next week too so I've been buried under a mountain of textbooks.
Well, today I dropped by a local motoshop with the parts to have a mechanic give me his impressions. He gave me a pretty quick and conclusive prognosis: needs to get rebored, new pistons, piston rings, bearings, and should check the valve seats. Basically..everything you guys have been talking about! I've just been trying to skimp it, but I don't think I can ignore dishing out the money anymore. I don't particularly want a smoker after a thousand miles either.
I've worked up the math:
Rebore: $80(ea.)x2 = $160
Check Valve Seats = $80
Piston Rings$31x2 = $62
Pistons $56(ea.)x2 = $112
Piston Pins & assorted = $40
Total ~= $450
That's on top of the crankshaft and rods which I already bought which were $12 and $25, and a gasket kit, which I'm hoping to get from ebay for $50. That's also assuming there's nothing wrong with the valves.
So....you all must be wondering what I'm planning on doing ;D. Well, I'll be looking for a used engine first, starting with craigslist and ebay, just as you folks suggested. I'll spend a little time with that, and if it happens I can't find one for a reasonable price below the $450, then I guess I'll buy the parts and build it up. In the end it'll still be cheaper than what you can find a decent GS500 around here for.
Btw Buddha, you mentioned some sort of Wiseco 550cc kit? Do you have a link for that? I tried browsing their website and scouring google but to no avail found any indication of existence of such a kit.
??? What's the $80 for checking the valve seats entail? You can remove the valves yourself and check this pretty easily.
Just my 2 cents: I can't see your bore and assess it by pics, but it doesn't look that bad. If you can get the bottom end to be solid, I'd do this:
Measure bores for tolerance and flex hone the bores to establish a new cross-hatch: $30 for the tool
New rings, pins if needed, $60-100
Inspect, clean up, balance and polish pistons: Free
Remove valves, inspect seats, clean valves and hand-lap seats if needed.
Clean up head, deck head if needed, new gaskets ($)
Throw it back together.
Worst case, let's say it runs but uses a bit of oil or smokes. Ride it a bit and see if you want to keep the bike, then fix it next winter if it really bothers you; the top end is a lot easier to get to. If things are in tolerance and not cracked, it shouldn't fail catastrophically, which is my main concern on engines for bikes.
Speaking of which, what's up with that clutch basket? Do they all look like that? It looks like a time bomb to me.
Wiseco 550 ... what ... I've never ... dgyver maybe ?
I am doing upper end on an xs650. Its got a drop in kit to take it to 750 ... rephase to a 277 degree crank and bingo.
Anyway, not me with the 550.
Cool.
Buddha.
Yo Kevin,
Did you see this 2006 engine on ebay starting at $300?
12 hours to go, in NY state.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/05-SUZUKI-GS500-MOTORCYCLE-ENGINE_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem4cec468988QQitemZ330381560200QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
it went for $300. someone got a great deal!!