New pics added (after cleaning the plugs) to my more recent post below
left-hand side
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn308/aroar/Sparkplugs004.jpg)
right-hand side
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn308/aroar/Sparkplugs005.jpg)
shown together
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn308/aroar/Sparkplugs007.jpg)
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn308/aroar/Sparkplugs006.jpg)
Looks like you need to clean/sync your carbs :cheers: The darker one is too rich (getting more fuel than it can burn) the other looks about right. replace both for now and clean/sync carbs ASAP
+1, and be very meticulous about looking for whats wrong with the left carb.
Check the float height on the left side. There's a sticky showing an easy method that doesn't require you removing the carbs.
It looks like your left spark plug just got back from the beach.
Right is pretty lean, left is pre igniting. That looks eaten ... no one else thinks that ?
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: The Buddha on December 02, 2009, 09:24:45 PM
Right is pretty lean, left is pre igniting. That looks eaten ... no one else thinks that ?
Cool.
Buddha.
I think right looks fine. almost , if not perfect
Left seemsto be melting.
Right has a wee bit much ash. Darker should be better.
Cool.
Buddha.
Right looks good, a little lean. left looks , well , ive never seen that, looks rusted or corroded but kind of rich. almost oil fouled
http://www.verrill.com/moto/sellingguide/sparkplugs/plugcolorchart.htm
Buddha
I was also thinking pre ignition, only because it reminded me of a picture I saw in a book. I have no experience with it so I did not want to be the first to say it and have you correct me. I would not bet $10 on pre ignition, though. I lean toward oil and krap fouling, which is odd seeing as the plug seems to be too long so it should burn too hot and burn all that junk off. Just guesses, I am no expert here.
joshr08, thanks for the link! here's another:
http://www.explorerforum.com/photopost/data/503/medium/reading_spark_plugs.jpg (http://www.explorerforum.com/photopost/data/503/medium/reading_spark_plugs.jpg)
BeerGarage
left looks fouled all to heck. See if you can scrape the gunk off. If its not gunk and its pitting, then Buddha is right and you have a pre-ignition issue
right side looks almost perfect to me, a little on the lean side.
Balance out the carbs
Left cylinder head is probably full of crap. needs decrapping.
I vote oil getting in. Rings or valve stems.
Maybe its carbs. Thats easier.
Quote from: johnny ro on December 03, 2009, 08:04:40 PM
Left cylinder head is probably full of crap. needs decrapping.
I vote oil getting in. Rings or valve stems.
Maybe its carbs. Thats easier.
Seafoam!
Thanks guys, keep the advice and opinions coming. So far the possibilities given for the condition of the left-hand plug are:
1. oil getting to the plug and fouling it, denoting a failure of the rings or valves (hoping its not this one :icon_sad:)
2. too much fuel getting to the left cylinder and not combusting sufficiently, denoting a carb problem??
or
3. pre-ignition (I'm not familiar with what this is or how/why it occurs)
After cleaning with a wire brush and some closer inspection, it does appear that some of the metal on the left-hand side plug is pitted. It kind of looks like an additional layer of rough metal upon the original smooth surface. This also appears on part of the center piece of metal on the plug. Here are some new pics after cleaning it off. I took 360 degree pics:
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn308/aroar/P1020767.jpg)
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn308/aroar/P1020769.jpg)
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn308/aroar/P1020770.jpg)
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn308/aroar/P1020771.jpg)
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn308/aroar/P1020772.jpg)
What do you think now??
for less than 5 bucks a peice, id replace it
Quote from: gregvhen on December 03, 2009, 10:51:27 PM
for less than 5 bucks a peice, id replace it
I'm going to replace them, sure, but I wanted to know if their condition was a sign of any problem. I don't believe the pittedness is a normal sign of wear for a spark plug, though correct me if I'm wrong.
Definitely not "normal" wear. Let's start with the basics; if you can't remember the last time you cleaned or synced yer carbs, do it.
But I digress. Your leftie reminds me of my Jeep's plugs when my head gasket was going south. Less compression=detonation? Help me out here...
the brownish one looks fine. the other one, dunno; maybe oil burning, maybe rich, wouldn't have thought detonation. should see the plugs from my truck last weekend - they make yours look gooooooood.
Ok sorry This pic after scraping doesn't look melted. Some pitting is normal, that extra deposit you have is not that normal, but you may be actually getting in trouble with additives. I'd stop any thing you added to the gas.
Oh yea get new plugs.
What is that deposit made of. Carbon ? if so scrape it off nice and good with a metal scraper and run it. Old plugs burn a nice color in and hold them so you can read it better. New plugs tend to clean off before you can get to them. Of course new plugs ruun better, old plugs just read easier. Once you get it dialed in, swap it for new.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: centuryghost on December 03, 2009, 11:45:10 PM
Definitely not "normal" wear. Let's start with the basics; if you can't remember the last time you cleaned or synced yer carbs, do it.
But I digress. Your leftie reminds me of my Jeep's plugs when my head gasket was going south. Less compression=detonation? Help me out here...
Low compression = inefficient combustion = fouling and deposits
Detonation happens when you get an explosion on the compression stroke due to an insufficient octane rating on your fuel. It explodes much like a diesel. However, gasoline engines arent designed to be able to withstand the temperatures/pressures caused by said combustion and will usually eat themselves in very short order. You tend to get detonation in heavily boosted engines and improper fuel choices or using cheap gas in high compression engines. you can stave off detonation by retarding timing, with the sacrifice of power
that deposit looks funky. almost like the plug was fouled, then was exposed to a lean condition and then glazed the deposit
All that sounds right to me.
Let me add that heavy fouling can cause hot spots - piles of carbon buildup krap, that get so hot that they will cause detonation. So it is possible that the fouling caused the detonation, leading to a spark plug covered with fouled fuel and oil, then coated with melted piston aluminum from predetonation.
I don't think that is really what this is, just an interesting theory.
id say oil is getting in there or that plug is missfiring half the time. i doubt its bad/contaminated gas because both carbs use the same gas so the other plug would be similar. both oil contamination and intermittent misfire can cause plugs to look like that. although severly unsynced carbs could cause that too. first replace both plugs then sync the carbs asap. then check plugs after a few hundred miles, if the plug in the offending cylinder looks bad again clean/replace plugs as necessary and switch coils around. if the bad plug follows the coil then youve got a bad coil if the bad plug happens in the same cylinder again id bet on oil contamination.
Quote from: centuryghost on December 03, 2009, 11:45:10 PM
Definitely not "normal" wear. Let's start with the basics; if you can't remember the last time you cleaned or synced yer carbs, do it.
But I digress. Your leftie reminds me of my Jeep's plugs when my head gasket was going south. Less compression=detonation? Help me out here...
The carbs are off and appear clean. I removed a slight bit of varnish, that's it. As far as being synced I will need to add that to my to do list.
Quote from: BelfryExpress on December 04, 2009, 12:59:56 PM
Low compression = inefficient combustion = fouling and deposits
Detonation happens when you get an explosion on the compression stroke due to an insufficient octane rating on your fuel. It explodes much like a diesel. However, gasoline engines arent designed to be able to withstand the temperatures/pressures caused by said combustion and will usually eat themselves in very short order. You tend to get detonation in heavily boosted engines and improper fuel choices or using cheap gas in high compression engines. you can stave off detonation by retarding timing, with the sacrifice of power
that deposit looks funky. almost like the plug was fouled, then was exposed to a lean condition and then glazed the deposit
Given what I think I know about my bike, what you say sounds very plausible > Low compression leading to incomplete combustion of fuels resulting in fouling of the plug which then is glazed on the plug by a lean condition.
The compression was tested during a laymen's motorcycle mechanics class that I took a couple years back and it turned out to be very low. I think I remember the teacher saying that the vacuum was very low but now that I think about it I'm not sure what vaccum has to do with a compression test :dunno_white:
In addition to that, it's very likely my bike has been running lean. After recently taking apart the carbs and checking the jets for the first time since I bought the bike used a couple years ago, I discovered it was running stock jets with one washer underneath each needle and the idle mixture screw had been changed from the factory setting of 2 turns out to 3.5 on one side, 4.5 out on the other (don't recall which side was at which setting). It has an aftermarket OEM size K and N air filter (not the lunchbox) w/o the restrictor. I have a stock exhaust. Given that is has been running with a slightly more open air filter without larger jets I feel I can safely assume that it was running lean, according to what everyone says here on the forum regarding the bike being lean from the factory.
Quote from: BeerGarage on December 04, 2009, 02:52:01 PM
All that sounds right to me.
Let me add that heavy fouling can cause hot spots - piles of carbon buildup krap, that get so hot that they will cause detonation. So it is possible that the fouling caused the detonation, leading to a spark plug covered with fouled fuel and oil, then coated with melted piston aluminum from predetonation.
I don't think that is really what this is, just an interesting theory.
I don't know, sounds plausible...
Quote from: black and silver twin on December 04, 2009, 02:58:01 PM
id say oil is getting in there or that plug is missfiring half the time. i doubt its bad/contaminated gas because both carbs use the same gas so the other plug would be similar. both oil contamination and intermittent misfire can cause plugs to look like that. although severly unsynced carbs could cause that too. first replace both plugs then sync the carbs asap. then check plugs after a few hundred miles, if the plug in the offending cylinder looks bad again clean/replace plugs as necessary and switch coils around. if the bad plug follows the coil then youve got a bad coil if the bad plug happens in the same cylinder again id bet on oil contamination.
What would cause a plug to misfire??
Quote
Quote from: black and silver twin on December 04, 2009, 04:58:01 PM
id say oil is getting in there or that plug is missfiring half the time. i doubt its bad/contaminated gas because both carbs use the same gas so the other plug would be similar. both oil contamination and intermittent misfire can cause plugs to look like that. although severly unsynced carbs could cause that too. first replace both plugs then sync the carbs asap. then check plugs after a few hundred miles, if the plug in the offending cylinder looks bad again clean/replace plugs as necessary and switch coils around. if the bad plug follows the coil then youve got a bad coil if the bad plug happens in the same cylinder again id bet on oil contamination.
What would cause a plug to misfire??
If the plug gets too fouled from running rich or just being really old or getting a conductive coating from contamination it can either stop the electrical travel through the secondary system of the coil or short out the plug allowing the current to bypass the plug gap and create no spark. also if you have weak coils they can cause a miss, a bad ignition pickup can also cause a miss.
you need to take the carbs apart clean the crud out of them then sync them. if you get another nasty plug switch the coils around. if the bad plug follows one specific coil then that coil/wire is bad. if the same cylinder continues to super foul out plugs then id bet on oil.
buddha, you say additives did this? what is a good amount of fuel stablizer if i fill my tank up for the winter?
Quote from: black and silver twin on December 06, 2009, 09:37:09 PM
If the plug gets too fouled from running rich or just being really old or getting a conductive coating from contamination it can either stop the electrical travel through the secondary system of the coil or short out the plug allowing the current to bypass the plug gap and create no spark. also if you have weak coils they can cause a miss, a bad ignition pickup can also cause a miss.
you need to take the carbs apart clean the crud out of them then sync them. if you get another nasty plug switch the coils around. if the bad plug follows one specific coil then that coil/wire is bad. if the same cylinder continues to super foul out plugs then id bet on oil.
Thanks a lot for the help. It'll be awhile for me to get to doing the different things that you've suggested but it's very helpful to have a better idea of some of the different possible causes of that funky plug. :cheers:
Quote from: gregvhen on December 06, 2009, 11:02:29 PM
buddha, you say additives did this? what is a good amount of fuel stablizer if i fill my tank up for the winter?
If it was additives, how did the left one do that and right be different.
I dunno, somehting is off on 1 cyl. I first thought he was detonating, but looks like its not melted, its just some serious crud. That can be just high fuel level or 1 carb got dirtier. Like left carb will likely get more dirt cos its lower when on side stand. But additives, well, they dissolve in the gas and are not going to separate with gravity.
I dunno, maybe just high fuel level. He's just got jets from me, I think he should go over them and set them all equal and see.
Cool.
Buddha.
I'm sticking to my guns here :2guns:
Check float height and sync the carbs.
Will do guys, float height check and sync. I'm currently housesitting so it's gonna be a few weeks before I get back to working on the bike.