The voters of Massachusetts may have just saved us from Obamacare. How ironic is that?
We shall see. not impossible, BUT the odds have changed though :icon_question:
Saved us?
I'm in my 50s and self employed. My wife also works two jobs.
My house and cars are mine, which puts me ahead of most people I know.
I have two kids in college, health care to pay for, and only my own savings as a retirement plan.
I can afford to support maybe three of those four things. Which one do you suggest I do without?
If my heath care costs go up 25% a year again the next two years, I'll have to drop two of them.
I'm breathlessly awaiting the Republican "plan".
Quote from: dubwise on January 21, 2010, 11:29:58 AM
I'm breathlessly awaiting the Republican "plan".
You had 8 years of Dubya, and 6 of those were full Republican control. The only plan was to keep borrowing money from other countries to feed to the banks to lend to stupid consumers to buy Hummers and houses they could not actually afford, all to keep up the illusion that "...THE ECONOMY IS STRONG...", as Dubya put it.
Mr. Obama (I'm no huge fan, but I think he's an improvement over what we had) inherited the biggest farking mess this country has seen in 50 years. Good luck to him, and us!
Yea Obama did all that you have said.
However he has not shown any intention of reversing course.
He is just a better spoken Bush who actually uses words that do exist.
OK fine he's a puppet of his advisors instead of being a puppet of his VP.
Instead of Regular Bush, we now have a anti gun, pro abortion and ghey rights - Bush.
1 yr is too little to judge - Fine I'd give you that.
I think though Obama is better respected in foreign countries than Bush was. Which may be a big deal. He could convince china to keep walking towards the Guillotine ... AKA keep lending us $ and selling us cheapo crappe to get that $ back ...
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: Caffeine on January 21, 2010, 02:25:40 PMYou had 8 years of Dubya,
He sure wasn't my president. He wasn't even elected. He was appointed by the Supreme Court.
And today they pretty much invalidated every campaign finance law back to 1907.
I can't figure out what the right expects to gain by destroying the country.
China's not just lending us money. They're buying our property at fire-sale prices.
We are so done for.
Buying property at fire sale prices ... lets see ... they cannot move it to their country, and they cannot get a visa to visit their land. In fact they are so shafted cos if they have to get any revenue out of it, they have to appoint a management company which of course has to be locally owned and operated, and that = a 30% hair cut. Minimum. If you find out you're living in a house owned by a chinese guy sitting in china (property records have to list the owner of record BTW and are searchable online) tell me would you even pay rent ??? Yea didn't think so.
America is a corporation, and they pay the executives all the $$ the country says it has. The rest of us are having to live on what is actually left in the till. Like Executives are paid real money based on paper assets. The rest of us get to fight over the leftovers.
Its the same way with the left or the right.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: dubwise on January 21, 2010, 04:44:15 PM
Quote from: Caffeine on January 21, 2010, 02:25:40 PMYou had 8 years of Dubya,
He sure wasn't my president. He wasn't even elected. He was appointed by the Supreme Court.
And today they pretty much invalidated every campaign finance law back to 1907.
I can't figure out what the right expects to gain by destroying the country.
China's not just lending us money. They're buying our property at fire-sale prices.
We are so done for.
Mr obama is on track to outspend many presidents combined. BUT i wil be the big man and say, i wish him well. that aside, china has us by the balls in a bad way, they buy our bonds and such. if they redeem them, we are Überfucked
Nah, they'll just fire up the presses and print out what they need. Yet, it's against the law for me to have my own printing press. :cookoo:
Ive got an antique press in my basement, ( roughly weighs a ton and a half ) Hmmmm, no i cannot make money :nono:( legally) that thign has been down there forever lol
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on January 21, 2010, 08:39:48 PMMr obama is on track to outspend many presidents combined.
Where are you getting those numbers? Rush tell you that? Some non-journalist on Fox? Perhaps if you count projected spending. Perhaps not.
Bush spent more than everyone before him together, created the largest government agency in history, and yet people think he's the conservative . Huh?
jserio and dubwise are correct. Yamahon too, however you must separate what was approved and put in the pipeline by bush where Obama just was handing it out as a bush expense.
Having said that Obama is really not showing any signs of being different from bush. If that indeed happens, it will not even matter if he's more than or less than bush in terms of $$$ amounts, cos there has been massive and un calculable inflation. I remember 8 years ago buying my favorite oil for 73 c a qt. Today its $2.35. So 10 yr inflation is closer to 400% ? WTF. We're on par with Zimbabwe at that point.
Anyway Bank tax is another way Obama is punishing the victim while protecting the criminals. Awful.
BTW Fox news is more aptly written as Faux news.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: The Buddha on January 22, 2010, 08:31:59 AMHaving said that Obama is really not showing any signs of being different from bush.
Not as different as I'd like him to be, no.
Some different, though. He's trying to reverse one of Bush's major accomplishments, our most-hated-nation status.
Most hated nation status is where he has actually made the most progress. Yea most of asia and europe loves him. He's prolly getting some backlash in the US because of that. India actually has turned into a huge supporter of Obama. Of course Obama is making some moves towards displacing china with India (which is odd, they hate that in India - like I go there and ask for some bearings or stuff like that to be made and they promptly say ... man you should go and make them in china, we buy them from over there see ...) WTF ...
Cool.
Buddha.
Who the hell cares what other nations think? They are rivals. Don't kid yourselves. How can you tell if their stated opinion and/or advice is honest and sincere? That's right, you can't, so stop being so naive. You're either #1 or you're trying to knock-off #1. This ain't Disneyland, folks, and it never will be.
The record shows both parties spend way too much and both sell us out routinely. The differences in spending priorities is nothing compared to the fact they're all spending too much. If you're blaming one side or the other you don't understand the problem. The truth is the dems and reps are ON THE SAME SIDE, AGAINST US! Both parties are too liberal. They both waste our money and neither respects the constitution. It's a fact, so don't argue with me. The C.B.O. sez we're on a collision course with bankruptcy. Both parties have had the chance to reverse this trend but they just went on spending. If this pisses you off don't yell at me, go yell at the C.B.O. or yourself for not paying attention until now.
You can blame whoever you want but you'll be doing NOTHING to solve the problem. Pay attention and get involved before our republic is no more, and it's on the ropes. Don't kid yourself about that, either. History shows it only takes two generations to destroy a republic, and we've been weakening this republic for some time already. Both parties would love nothing better than to get rid of that pesky Constitution that protects liberty by limiting the size and scope of the federal government. It's our duty to stop them. If we don't, we deserve everything we get.
Correct: But one point I wont agree on ...
Not all trading partners are rivals. Thinking that they are is going to push the whole world into protectionism.
It will of course be better to make stuff ourselves than import it. However if we are trading (import and export) atleast it makes sense to trade with a country/region that thinks like you and acts like you - as in, no slave prison labor en masse and no imprisonment of dissidents ... like china does. And as an aside - a even trade or the smallest deficit possible should be better over a huge one like in the case of china-US.
Here is another thing I didn't know till just yesterday. US trade with India was 12 billion to India and 10.5 billion to US. Meaning US sold 10.5B worth to India and bought 12B from India. I am used to seeing Caterpillars and several other US made and european machinery in India, now I know what that all amounts to. Anyway that is a better example of trade than what US has with china or the middle east.
Cool.
Buddha.
My remarks above have nothing to do with trade. I agree with you on that too. When you hear people in the media whine about how unpopular the U.S. might be overseas it has everything to do with military and terrorist-fighting decisions and nothing to do with trade. Most foreign countries love our trade policies because our politicians have been bought-off and allow the U.S. to be routinely taken advantage of. They benefit more than we do, and it should be a more-or-less level playing field. Both parties are in the pockets of various large corporations. The solution is not to limit speech or assembly or anything of the sort. The solution is informed and engaged American voters. Someday they will run-out of developing countries and the playing field will be forced to become more level. The problem is we won't live long enough to see it.
As for trusting our government to reform health care now, it's just crazy. These are for the most part the most corrupt people in American history. I wouldn't trust them to take my dog to take a piss let alone reform our health care system, and it floors me that anyone would be gullible enough to let them. I can't afford everything in my middle class life either, but I'd rather have expensive health care that works rather than more expensive health care administered by the government that won't work, a la Britain and Canada. Don't anyone try to tell me Canadian health care works. It's a joke. I live right next door. Thousands of Canadians come here every year for care they can't wait for.
Facts are so pesky, like the constitution.
Quote from: bill14224 on January 22, 2010, 01:30:26 PM
Who the hell cares what other nations think? They are rivals. Don't kid yourselves.
Last I checked, we all live on the same planet. They're neighbors. I believe in helping my neighbors.
So you think we're wrong to be helping in Haiti? What about "liberating" Iraq, that being one of Cheney's justifications?
Both of Bush's wars would have been won if we'd gone in building schools and hospitals instead of dropping bombs.
Would have been a fraction of the cost, and many thousand brave young American lives would have been spared.
Our standing in the world would have gone up, and the terrorists would be hated by all.
I do totally agree with you as to the multinationals playing us all. I also agree with your solution, informed and engaged voters.
Up until yesterday's Supreme Court decision, I even thought it was possible. Now, I think we're just screwed.
I'm puzzled, though. Who do you expect to reform health care, if not the government? The insurance companies?
Our "wars" are too political. Aren't we supposed to have the best military forces in the world? And yet we can't seem to find a 6'5 arab on dialysis? We are too worried about what a countries perception of us will be that we've instead of walking softly and carrying a big stick we're just walking softly. IF you feel it is necessary to go to war, don't play games. Kick the f%$k out of them and be done. Crush them. Leave no prisoners etc. Give civilians one week to depart, anyone left after that week is considered the enemy. We don't need to go door to door. We brought the nation of Japan to it's knees with only 2 bombs.
Quote from: dubwise on January 22, 2010, 03:04:46 PM
Quote from: bill14224 on January 22, 2010, 01:30:26 PM
Who the hell cares what other nations think? They are rivals. Don't kid yourselves.
Last I checked, we all live on the same planet. They're neighbors. I believe in helping my neighbors.
So you think we're wrong to be helping in Haiti? What about "liberating" Iraq, that being one of Cheney's justifications?
Both of Bush's wars would have been won if we'd gone in building schools and hospitals instead of dropping bombs.
Would have been a fraction of the cost, and many thousand brave young American lives would have been spared.
Our standing in the world would have gone up, and the terrorists would be hated by all.
I do totally agree with you as to the multinationals playing us all. I also agree with your solution, informed and engaged voters.
Up until yesterday's Supreme Court decision, I even thought it was possible. Now, I think we're just screwed.
I'm puzzled, though. Who do you expect to reform health care, if not the government? The insurance companies?
Whoa, don't put words in my mouth!
If your roof was leaking would you tear the house down? This is what Obama and congress are trying to do, tearing-down our health care house and replace it with a health care prison, and an EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE ONE at that, according to the C.B.O. C.B.O. says it'll bankrupt the country, but Obama and congress have shown us they don't care because they kept on pushing it. Did you know the congress, president, and entire federal workforce is EXEMPT from this "health care" bill? The bill is a lot more about government control than reforming health care. C'mon now, it's not hard to see. The senate bill is a foot thick and they're trying to ram it through in days with out-and-out bribery. There is no transparency nor is there any republican input, both of which the president promised. The bill stinks to high heaven. I say burn it and start over. Of course I expect the government to reform health care, just not this gov't. We have to clean the rats out first.
Of course I believe in helping those in need, but allowing yourself to be screwed like a drunk cheerleader at a frat party is another matter, which is what we do. We help people here and abroad for generations who have no intention to become more independent, yet we keep throwing money at them. We become enablers, not to mention dupes, when we do this.
Who's talking about Haiti? Compared to the issues above Haiti doesn't even register, although it's a terrible tragedy. Haiti is not a functioning republic. That's why it's such a mess. Gangs step-in and run sections of the country. Relief convoys are being attacked and robbed by local gangs just last week, didn't you hear? That's what happens when you try to help Haiti, and that's why you have to take soldiers with you. The country is so poor that whenever anyone brings aid of any kind it's stolen by the first group of thugs they come in contact with, be it local gangs or the government. The Haitian government is just as bad as the gangs. The money and supplies "disappear" and the public goes on suffering, EXACTLY like the palestinians. Yassir Arafat lined his pockets with billions until the day he died, all the while pretending to care about his people, who he was merely using. This is a common thing in chronically poor countries without a functioning republic. Anyone who has power, either locally or in the capital, takes whatever they can for themselves and leaves everyone else behind. The only proven method of helping the general population in such countries permanently is to "nation build", like we did in Europe after WWII, and most recently Iraq. We'd have to invade, restore (or install in this case) the infrastructure, set-up elections, occupy for many years while training police and security forces, then slowly withdraw. It's expensive, slow, and hundreds of our boys and girls in uniform would die in the process. Do you REALLY want to help Haiti that badly, or do you just feel bad like the rest of us and want an easy solution?
We couldn't build schools and such in Iraq while Saddam was in charge. He wouldn't have allowed it. He also kept billions in foreign aid for himself. Saddam didn't even allow girls to go to school. I could ask you if you think only boys should be allowed to go to school but I don't play dirty games like that. Do you know how Saddam took power in Iraq in 1979? He murdered his predecessor, like in the old Soviet Union. The idea that Iraq could be helped in any meaningful way with Saddam and his sons in charge is so naive I don't know what else to say. His sons used to crash weddings and rape the bride for kicks. Didn't you hear that either? You can't meaningfully help a poor country and leave inhumane people in charge. It just can't work, period.
I am disappointed in Bush for not having the balls to admit exactly why he overthrew Saddam. He did it to have a thriving republic smack-dab in the center of the Middle East, thinking it'll go a long way to stabilize the region. It was a brilliant idea and it worked, (probably Cheney's idea) he just didn't have the nerve to admit why. Instead he made-up some shiite about WMD's and terror camps. Saddam did in fact allow Al-Qaeda to operate in his country and he was very happy about 9/11, but that's not why we invaded. It was a secondary reason at best. Anyone who tells you it was a war for oil is totally misinformed. Iraqi oil doesn't come to the U.S. The bulk of it goes to Turkey, Europe, and China.
As for free speech, spending money is free speech. It is self-evident. Thomas Jefferson would heartily agree. Think not? Read-up on him, it'll be an education. Unions have never been limited about how much they can spend on candidates and ads, why should anyone else? No government has the right to tell you or me, or any collection of us, how much of our money can be spent or when on any candidate or media ads. The Supreme Court, famous for 200 years of judicial activism, got it right for a change. Rights are not bestowed on us by the government, although they'd love you to believe it. Our rights come from our creator and no one else.
Just in case you're anti-corporate let me throw this at you. I work for a corporation with about 700 employees that takes great pains not to get involved in politics. We raise tens of thousands of dollars every year for the United Way, Juvinile Diabetes Foundation, the local food bank, Adopt an Angel, and other charities. When government goes after evil corporations with punitive regulations and taxes it affects us too. Is that fair? Has that thought ever crossed your mind? After Obama took office and announced his agenda business went in the tank as we all know. I was working 4 day weeks for most of last year, so I didn't donate to the United Way, JDRF, or the food bank. I couldn't afford to. Actions have consequences. Hopefully Obama will learn that someday.
We agree on the solution to these problems. Have faith in it. An informed and engaged electorate is more powerful than the aggregate power of all the big evil corporations combined. Think I'm wrong? Wait until November and watch the heads roll!
Quote from: bill14224 on January 22, 2010, 04:18:12 PMDo you know how Saddam took power in Iraq in 1979?
I certainly do. We installed him.
The CIA, at the direction of Richard Helms, assasinated Qasim in 1963 and brought the Ba'ath party to power.
We supported them, and in particular Saddam, throughout the 60s and 70s, for their anti-communist stance.
QuoteSaddam did in fact allow Al-Qaeda to operate in his country
Now you're just hallucinating. He actively crushed anyone who could challenge him.
Quote from: dubwise on January 22, 2010, 05:06:00 PM
Quote from: bill14224 on January 22, 2010, 04:18:12 PMDo you know how Saddam took power in Iraq in 1979?
I certainly do. We installed him.
The CIA, at the direction of Richard Helms, assasinated Qasim in 1963 and brought the Ba'ath party to power.
We supported them, and in particular Saddam, throughout the 60s and 70s, for their anti-communist stance.
QuoteSaddam did in fact allow Al-Qaeda to operate in his country
Now you're just hallucinating. He actively crushed anyone who could challenge him.
Al-Qaeda never challenged Saddam. They had roughly the same goals.
We did not "install" Saddam. He drew a pistol and blew his successor's brains out. It's a fact. I'm not hallucinating. Sure, we've allied ourselves with several murderers over the years in an effort to defeat what we regard as a greater evil at the time. We allied ourselves with Josef Stalin in WWII, one of the most accomplished murderers in human history. We can chew the fat all day about whether that's a wise thing to do or not, but I'm not going to carry-on with you unless you start showing me some intellectual honesty. Who are you anyway, Howard Dean?
bill this is true. also ( correct me if i am wrong please) didnt we also support the taliban, while they were at war with soviet russia?
Quote from: dubwise on January 21, 2010, 11:29:58 AM
Saved us?
I'm in my 50s and self employed. My wife also works two jobs.
My house and cars are mine, which puts me ahead of most people I know.
I have two kids in college, health care to pay for, and only my own savings as a retirement plan.
I can afford to support maybe three of those four things. Which one do you suggest I do without?
If my heath care costs go up 25% a year again the next two years, I'll have to drop two of them.
I'm breathlessly awaiting the Republican "plan".
Note before I continue posting...I vote in every election...from president to local dog catcher.
I didn't vote for Obama. I didn't vote for Bush II...Or Clinton...or Bush I.
I have a clear conscience when the guy from either party screws things up...although it is a bummer to always vote for losing candidates... :laugh:
Anyways,
I think the federal govt should do a handful of tasks...like maintain the military for defense or build interstate highways to support commerce. They have no business subsidizing our health care.
I am happy that you own your own home and send your children to college. I wish more people were as responsible. But you have no right to expect the govt (local, state, federal) to raid 50% of my (and everyone's) income for you to do so.
Since you asked the question, I would make the kids take out loans to finish their education
if you could not afford to pay for it.
You think my kids should be saddled with loans, and that the insurance and medical industries
should be able to continue stealing from all of us?
I disagree. I believe that profit has no place in the core functions surrounding peoples' health.
It's inherent in the profit model that you are creating an incentive to find reasons to refuse coverage.
The cost of that profit is destroying our economy while the quality of our care declines.
Hey look, we're back on the OP's topic.
Y'know Obama health reform is something ... its like fitting a bicycle wheel on a car with a missing wheel, its not gonna do anything but the guy can put a for sale sign on it saying it has new tars on all 4 wheels.
In the next 10 years there will be a huge outcry for health reform from get this - hospitals and doctors. They will simply get tired and go out of business from people not paying their ridiculous bills.
Worse yet, they will face price questions from patients who know they dont have insurance and they will get comparison shopped. They will then start a race to the actuals and hospitals will start looking less like 5 star hotels and start looking like a place that caters to sick people. AKA how they look in India or other third world. Its already happening. The Urgent cares and outpatient surgery centers are the first step.
We really dont have to do anythign. Oh, actually we will just have to write laws and pass them preventing agressive collection methods for medical balances ... yea. Cos everyone knows asprin costs 20C on the street and 40 bucks at a hospital, cos you have to cover for non paying patients. Of course if it did cost 20c there will be almost no non payers.
Cool.
Buddha.
and the medical overhard, cost of building lights equipment, the govt through whoever was/is in power has shown a gross inability to judge what somethign is worth. who would we/should we charge with that task? yeah costs DO need tom come down, but for some odd reason it seems, whenever govt brings costs down, it tends to cost more. idk where to look anymore lol
What we need to really do is offer people proper protection against blind billing like, you walk into a hospital with a bleeding arm and yo uahve no idea what you'd be billed ... Yea you know you need stitches, a shot for pain and one for tetanus and a bandage ... will it cost 50, 500, 5000 ... 50,000) and aggressive collection ... heck they should pass a law saying it cannot go on your credit especially if you have insurance and that wont cover it.
I also like to see emergency and ambulance costs get sent to the right party (like you're in an accident that is someon else's fault ... they will get your insurance info - why, its that other guy's responsibility). Worse yet, you fall off the bike and someone driving by calls the ambulance ... yea you get dinged for that.
Cool.
Buddha.
This is where Thom Hartmann's mantra comes in. I don't want the government making my shoes, my car, or my computer.
But when I'm having a heart attack, I'm not in a position to shop around. It has to work.
The capitalist model simply falls apart on essential services. The goal of profit is completely opposite the goal of service.
It's the same with the utilities. They deregulated power out west and it took Enron two years to
come into existence and maliciously, purposefully, destroy California's economy in the name of profit.
If you haven't watched The Smartest Guys In The Room, you really should. It's entertaining.
Churches run decent health systems. So do universities. So do governments. Corporations can not.
Churches are the most over priced in this area atleast, and I also think their pre school really was unethical in my son's case. Basically they took our $, accepted an autistic kid and started the program and kicked him out 1 week into a 6 week program cos they couldn't deal with him. Somehow I think if they throw in "the lord" or "jesus" into a sentence it allows them to do anything. "In the name of the lord I kill this poor fellow and take his land and house so that he may have a better life". Yea ...
Anyway they are trying to collect big $ from the buddha for various crap they didn't provide or we didn't ask for/need and it was a problem created by my son's school who also were the ones who called the ambulance when he fainted in class ... to cover their ass. I am dragging them through the mud. I anticipate paying 100 bucks on a 1500 bill, that is if I dont get them to collect it from the school.
Cool.
Buddha.
If it wasn't evident, I meant that non-profits can run decent health care, not that they all do.
I guess they can, but I am yet to see one. In fact I am yet to see a big non profit do anything 1/2 decent, OK better than the govt, sure, but not that much better.
1 thing people dont realise is - its non profit after they have done paying themselves millions.
Cool.
Buddha.
I think I will stay outta this one... Of course eventually Obama can find another senator to bribe, millions of dollars to LA for Mary Landreux's vote, Oh yeah we gave nebraska tax exemptions to get Ben Nelson's vote. Several senators weren't voting for health care because they thought it was good they voting for it because they were getting a big fat sack of cash.
As long as he's wasting time with health reform which I think is going to go nowheer even if passed - he's not doing more damage by considering even worse, like crap and tirade or immigration.
Best to keep him occupied where least damage is possible.
Cool.
Buddha.
Does everyone think the health industry is doing a great job?
My wife works a 30 hour a week job and it goes almost entirely to our health care.
When I was growing up, a 40 hour a week job bought the house, the food, the education and the health care.
I'm not hearing anything here but "no" to everything.
Anybody got any positive ideas? Love to hear 'em.
Dont pay the bill, and when they call negotiate with them.
However I have no need for and never did I need credit in nearly 10 years.
My house ... well fixed rate and I somehow got it inspite of abuse of my creditors (though I didn't have to start doing it till ~2005 when my son got diagnosed wiht autism and once that went on his medical record, they refuse everything. Hence I have been stiffing labs and they cringed and cried and settled a 5000 bill for $105 after repeatedly telling them to stop wasting time and report it to my credit ... Turns out 105 bucks was what my insurance negotiated rate for the tests was. $2500 fragile X test was lowered to 13 bucks as pre negotiated $ ...
I am sorry these people deserve to be stiffed. Or paid 5c on each dollar (thinking that itself is too high) but I fought them for 1 year.
I am insured and its pretty good ... however emergency BS and anything else is rife with errors, and insurance companies dont even suggest OH there is a typo here ... they just refuse. I promptly turn around and say the ER people's billing department - sorry you have a mistake ... dunno what it is but its wrong ... Over and over again. The last 3 months have been nightmares mostly for them but me too.
Here is the other twist in our laws ... you owe someone 100 bucks you cannot get out of it in bankruptcy. Owe 100K and you can literally walk ... medical bills never go to court ... they're going to take you to court for collecting 1000 bucks ... yea right ... and remember this, they have split the billign into 20 different fragments, and they send you 20 bills - each one has to go to court ... you could wait and pay it just as it goes to the court ... may work ... I however just fight, say its their mistake, or the school called the ambulance to cover their ass for giving my son food he wasn't supposed to eat ... so he faints, they call ambulance and us ... so we have this bill ... sorry you should ask the school.
So on ... just argue ... if they said you need aspirin, I'd have run across the street and got it for 10c ... no ... they put in in a cup and sit in on your table ... you wake up and knock it over ... oops that was 100 bucks and you need another mystery pill ... here ...
Cool.
Buddha.
Seriously? That's your answer? Agree to their terms and then don't hold up your end?
I am not agreeing to nothing unless it has prices on it.
I consent to bill insurance ... yea but nothing wiht no prices on it.
Show me prices ... BTW in my son's case there is no patient consent he was 6 and the school sent him to the hospital. No one signed a form.
You actually ask several times if I am the patient, how much would this cost - never once have I got an answer. However the bill I am fighting about was not me or my wife. My son was the patient.
The standard doc visits etc I have insurance that covers all that. Even the hospital my insurance picked up 1/2 the charges. I suspect there are some "errors" in the bill and its the hospital that made them cos they stand to gain.
And sorry I dont agree to anything. I tell them to collect on it, and hurry ... that is it. The lab bill from 05 was entirely due to lab core's errors in not following my son's doctors recomendations for a blood draw.
They drew 13 vials over 4 sessions. I had insurance for 3 of them and on the 4th I didn't. If they had followed my doctors instructions it will have been fine with 1 draw of 4 vials which actually we still have that same test schedule every quarter. 2 vials is all they draw now a days, cos well, these lab techs are competent. I told them as they were drawing that the 4 vials was all that was needed ... since it was 4 at tha tfirst time I thought that was it. Then they said we need another session ... where they drew 3 ... then they said another ... then another ... by the time the last 2 were happenign I knew some problem was happening where the techs dont know arithmetic or cant read instructions form the doctor.
They got lucky when my insurance paid the first 3, I told the Idiots who used to call ... if it was me you'd have gotten stiffed on all of it cos your tech are morons.
You can do what you're saying, it could be just as effective, but I simply get to the bottom of the whole deal. I make them tell me the aspirin cost 600 bucks etc etc ... usually it never comes to that, they know waste when the person on the phone screams at them for the 300th time.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: dubwise on January 25, 2010, 10:20:31 AM
Does everyone think the health industry is doing a great job?
My wife works a 30 hour a week job and it goes almost entirely to our health care.
When I was growing up, a 40 hour a week job bought the house, the food, the education and the health care.
I'm not hearing anything here but "no" to everything.
Anybody got any positive ideas? Love to hear 'em.
Yep I have a suggestion get government out of health insurance.
You can't buy insurance from a company that doesn't have a presence in your state, there goes competition in markets, especially in an ever increasing e-commerce world where traditional brick and mortar overheads can be done away with.
States are allowed to place ridiculous requirements on insurance companies. Isn't it Massachusets that requires health insurance companies in that state to pay for hair transplants? Yeah I'm going bald but thats a cosmetic issue, get a rug or shave it if you have an esteem problem.
I think not being able to afford a motorcycle right now is affecting my health. Can I just go buy one and have them bill my health insurance? After all, isn't a persons "health" also linked to their happiness? :icon_mrgreen:
Okay, now to be serious. I'm all for making changes to our current health care system because, yes, it does have issues. However, I'm not for, "change, just for the sake of change". We won't know what works best until we get something going. I don't see what is so difficult about spotting the problem and them implementing a solution for it. For example, it's a pain in the ass to keep track of your medical records. Why isn't all that info kept in one centralized database that any hospital anywhere can access? This would speed up the process of treating patients and cut down on fraud too I believe. How many of you have gone to the doctor and have to answer the same 50 billion questions 3 times before you even see the doctor? Cut down some of the waste and red tape. Why do procedures need a 15 digit "code" for billing? Call it what it is and there won't be as many mix ups. Instead of billing your insurance for "code 1589988711664" just call it, regular check up, or whatever the hell it is. Make ALL procedures termed universally to cut down the confusion at the insurance companies.
Quote from: jserio on January 25, 2010, 04:17:20 PM
I think not being able to affect a motorcycle right now is affecting my health. Can I just go buy one and have them bill my health insurance? After all, isn't a persons "health" also linked to their happiness? :icon_mrgreen:
Okay, now to be serious. I'm all for making changes to our current health care system because, yes, it does have issues. However, I'm not for, "change, just for the sake of change". We won't know what works best until we get something going. I don't see what is so difficult about spotting the problem and them implementing a solution for it. For example, it's a pain in the ass to keep track of your medical records. Why isn't all that info kept in one centralized database that any hospital anywhere can access? This would speed up the process of treating patients and cut down on fraud too I believe. How many of you have gone to the doctor and have to answer the same 50 billion questions 3 times before you even see the doctor? Cut down some of the waste and red tape. Why do procedures need a 15 digit "code" for billing? Call it what it is and there won't be as many mix ups. Instead of billing your insurance for "code 1589988711664" just call it, regular check up, or whatever the hell it is. Make ALL procedures termed universally to cut down the confusion at the insurance companies.
Dont try me jserio, way things are right now id try it. have the doctor prescribe me a ducati 1098 for sunny day therapy, and an 82 ferrari 308 gt4 for foul weather doldrums. hehe, naah i couldnt do it. tempting if it had a rats chance in hell of going through, but ehhhhh. first things first. gotta find a house
Change just for the sake of change does 1 thing ... its breaks the strangle hold insurance companies and pharma and hospitals have on the current system. They resist and lobby because they are jockeying for position. Change things at random and that will give them the "rug pulled out from under their feet feeling". That would lead them to reduce their meddling while the actual reforms are implemented.
I dunno it also sounds like a bad plan.
Cool.
Buddha.
I don't think it's a good plan, but having no plan is destroying us.
Having gubbamint in health care will do 1 thing - the bills and what not the various insurance companies need to be submitted this way and that, There is 2 people per insurance company in any medium sized doc practice in the billing dept. I used to support one of them, there was 2 BCBC, 2 Aetna, 2 cigna experts. There were 2 medicare/medicaid experts and they did 3X the volume of the next highest company. So there is less overhead if there is 1 company. Medicare/aid is very low on payments, 1/2 to 1/10 ... but the billing overhead is also 1/10th. Maybe there is an advantage top having just 1. Less variation in paperwork.
Cool.
Buddha.
Heh idk, there is no information on how this thing would be implemented, or as obama said, its a healthcare emergency, yet it wouldnt be implemented for 4 years? like today he was talking about a spending freeze... in '11, anyway, back on topic, i dont know how they'd run a healthcare plan, ( lack of information) i honestly think the govt doesnt know tbh. sounds like if it were to be started theyd learn as they go?, ive seen all there is to see, and regardign the healthcare option, theres not much on " how well run it"
Wow, three pages in and no one has swayed the opinion of the other side. Shocking.
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on January 26, 2010, 08:21:34 PMi dont know how they'd run a healthcare plan, ( lack of information) i honestly think the govt doesnt know tbh. sounds like if it were to be started theyd learn as they go?, ive seen all there is to see, and regardign the healthcare option, theres not much on " how well run it"
Actually there's a lot on how they run a health care plan. Look at Medicare. MUCH lower costs than private health insurance. There is a lot to be gained by going to a single-payer system, and it does not require government ownership of hospitals and clinics. The Medicare model is a pretty convincing argument that it saves money when private insurers (leeches) are left out of the loop.
Medicare for everyone SHOULD be the plan. But the corporations rule the world, and will increasingly do so after the Supreme Court ruling last week. Gotta love that "non-activist" conservative majority which in this case struck down almost a century of case law and overturned laws in 22 states. Liars, corporate whores, and thieves -- brought to you by the GOP.
Quote from: The Buddha on January 26, 2010, 10:12:51 AM
Having gubbamint in health care will do 1 thing - the bills and what not the various insurance companies need to be submitted this way and that, There is 2 people per insurance company in any medium sized doc practice in the billing dept. I used to support one of them, there was 2 BCBC, 2 Aetna, 2 cigna experts. There were 2 medicare/medicaid experts and they did 3X the volume of the next highest company. So there is less overhead if there is 1 company. Medicare/aid is very low on payments, 1/2 to 1/10 ... but the billing overhead is also 1/10th. Maybe there is an advantage top having just 1. Less variation in paperwork.
Cool.
Buddha.
TG any truth to this? what buddha says? isee one positive tho the overhear. ill admit that, hell im ineligible for medicaid though, and since i dont draw disability i cannot get medicare. so unless the core requirements, and what is allowed IN changes, im still out :dunno_white: heh, coprs BOTH sides in this country are enslaved by them, how do we change that?
I have heard it on NPR and that was what triggered my memory cos I worked for them back in 04-05.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on January 26, 2010, 11:47:41 PMheh, corps BOTH sides in this country are enslaved by them, how do we change that?
Thanks to Justice John Roberts, this two years is our absolute last chance to change it.
If we go through the next election cycle with unlimited corporate funding of elections,
we'll never see another that will be remotely related to whatever it is that the people want.
Think about this. China holds a billion dollars in Treasury securities. They already have wholly-owned corporations here.
Any lobbyist will tell you that dollars spent in Washington are the best investment you can make.
If China invests just two tenths of one percent of our own debt that they hold, they will have two billion dollars
to spend influencing elections nationwide. That's roughly as much as was spent total in the last national cycle, only it
would all be coordinated and organized in a single direction. Shell corporations mean nobody could prove who was behind it.
Anybody can form a corporation in Delaware for $150. Colombian drug cartel. Russian Mafia.
Dubwise scary and yes 100% true.
Cool.
Buddha.
Yama, I agree that Congressmen from both parties are corporate whores. However, the number on the GOP side has to approach 100%. With the Dems, it is probably 80% on the Senate side and 70% in the house. In the Supreme Court, the 5 member conservative majority is definitely corporate-owned.
Don't people get a voice anymore? Real people?
Quote from: trumpetguy on January 27, 2010, 03:58:07 PM
Yama, I agree that Congressmen from both parties are corporate whores. However, the number on the GOP side has to approach 100%. With the Dems, it is probably 80% on the Senate side and 70% in the house. In the Supreme Court, the 5 member conservative majority is definitely corporate-owned.
Don't people get a voice anymore? Real people?
1% over ZERO is too many, and i fear it will never change. ive not seen an honest politician in a very long time. and TG although i accept your posting ill say im not sure of the accuracy of the numbers. but ill agree its high . because NO elected official will willing admit to being a corporate whore. and sadly since the supreme court is a lifetime job, one way or the other there will be a majority there. no matter whos. ive not a problem wiht conservatives, NOR do i have a problem with liberals. AS LONG AS they listen to the people and are fair
Guys, it's not about republican and democrat. Both parties are run by "progressives" who are really liberal socialist elitists who believe the constitution must go because it limits the size and scope of the federal government. They're trying to overload the system (and doing a damn good job of it) so they can replace our system with a new one, one without a constitution. If the people got rid of all the "progressives" in both parties they'd find a perfectly good system that works better than any governmental system ever devised. We already have gobs of federal power, too much.
Look what has happened in past decades and you'll see what I mean. The majority of Americans are not "progressives". Every time a "progressive" gets elected the people get pissed at their "progressive" initiatives that always cause damage to our economy and liberty. There has only been one president since WWII that wasn't a "progressive", and that was Ronald Reagan. Love him or hate him, Reagan is the most popular president we've had since WWII, proving my point. Reagan wasn't perfect in my opinion, but he's the only one who didn't encourage the growth of federal power.
Obama is doing nothing new, he's just stepping on the gas harder than any president I've ever seen.
I shake my head when I read about people loving the Bushes and hating the Kennedys or loving the Kennedys and hating the Bushes. They are all progressives, so those who feel that way are completely missing the big picture.
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on January 23, 2010, 01:09:02 AM
bill this is true. also ( correct me if i am wrong please) didnt we also support the taliban, while they were at war with soviet russia?
Yama, we helped the Mujahideen (Afghan freedom fighters, as they were called by reporters) fight the Russians and the Marxist government of Afghanistan 30 years ago. The Taliban is an extremist Sunni Islamist movement that didn't take-over Afghanistan until 1996.
Quote from: bill14224 on February 01, 2010, 05:07:39 PM
Guys, it's not about republican and democrat. Both parties are run by "progressives" who are really liberal socialist elitists who believe the constitution must go because it limits the size and scope of the federal government. They're trying to overload the system (and doing a damn good job of it) so they can replace our system with a new one, one without a constitution. If the people got rid of all the "progressives" in both parties they'd find a perfectly good system that works better than any governmental system ever devised. We already have gobs of federal power, too much.
Look what has happened in past decades and you'll see what I mean. The majority of Americans are not "progressives". Every time a "progressive" gets elected the people get pissed at their "progressive" initiatives that always cause damage to our economy and liberty. There has only been one president since WWII that wasn't a "progressive", and that was Ronald Reagan. Love him or hate him, Reagan is the most popular president we've had since WWII, proving my point. Reagan wasn't perfect in my opinion, but he's the only one who didn't encourage the growth of federal power.
Obama is doing nothing new, he's just stepping on the gas harder than any president I've ever seen.
I shake my head when I read about people loving the Bushes and hating the Kennedys or loving the Kennedys and hating the Bushes. They are all progressives, so those who feel that way are completely missing the big picture.
I'd love to respond, but there's no arguing with your "logic." What brand of tin foil do you use for your hat, BTW?
Right there with you, tg.
I looked at his messages and went "Huh. ... Liberal socialist elitists. ... Ummm. ... Huh."
I wonder what country he lives in?
Quote from: trumpetguy on February 02, 2010, 08:35:06 AM... What brand of tin foil do you use for your hat, BTW?
Only the best Reynolds wrap FTW :thumb:
Oh Fook Try this ...
Ambulance company has been sending me bills for over a G, right (apparently the base cost is 747 bucks, and then its $16 a mile for getting back to hospital) ... OK and I am trying to call them, and with over an hour of hold time at times before getting to a person, and I find out they sent my bill to aetna - nice, my insurance co is cigna. Great. That was in dec.
Now again they are trying to collect $ from me, I get whopping mad and I call cigna and they say, they never had a bill for this come through and likely that it will get reimbursed cos its a genuine situation, kid fainting in school is serious for teh school to pull out all the stops etc etc ... I ask them what they pay ambulance for a 16 mile run, and they ask was it in the same county etc etc and they go, oh that is a standard 125 unless they stabilised the patient before transport. In his case it was scoop and run so its 125.
Then I call the geniuses @ the billing (bilking) department and find out, they sent it to cigna all right, but without the right insurance ID WTF, its on the bill they sent me ...
Freaking scam I tells ya ... all of em, trying to rip off the buddha. Trying to get 1000+ for a 125 bill.
Cool.
Buddha.
I buy my tin foil at Aldi but I've yet to make a hat with it. The aliens have better thought control technology now so tin foil no longer works.
You need to pay more attention and read more rather than rely on what people tell you, including me. Read about the history of the progressive movement from Karl Marx through Teddy Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, Prescott Bush, Joe Kennedy, Lenin, Stalin, Hitler's Nazi party, Mussolini and his biggest fan George Bernard Shaw, FDR, and Mao Tse Tung. You'll see what I'm talking about. Their beliefs and policies are so much the same it's downright frightening and they're still in practice today. All these people despised not only wealthy people, but anyone who wasn't just like them. They all had a very negative view of humanity and think it's the government's job to save humanity from itself. They have it completely backwards.
Both parties are trying to take our whole lives over and it's up to the people to stop them. Only you can protect your liberty, don't kid yourselves. Once you get a good understanding of the constitution you'll see that income tax, the federal reserve, social security, joining the U.N., and many other things we've done are unconstitutional and we're following a path to serfdom. If you believe your rights come from the government rather than your creator you don't understand the constitution and you're already thinking like a serf. Big government is no one's friend unless you're in the ruling elite. You may think you're safe because you're in a union. Read about what Stalin did to the unions once they put him in complete power. They thought he was on their side. Boy, were they wrong.
If you really hate to read old books go find some immigrants from Eastern Europe and ask them. If that doesn't wake you up, nothing will.