I open my engine today and found an old nasty dry rotted seal on the right side. and also i found 2 broken camshaft caps. both on the right side. I think they are C and D. I cant find these on the OEM diagram from bike bandit, where can i get em?
Nope, they are align bored wiht the head. I wont swap in caps from another head. I'd replace the whole head. Oddly cam shafts can go from one head into another but caps cannot.
Cool.
Buddha.
well in that case, does anybody have a head for sale? really cheap? man im screwed.
OK you could re bore your cam caps and your cam shaft ends in a machine shop to be able to fit a needle bearing.
That will negate the whole need for the plain bearing caps and align bored BS.
However remember to get out passages made to get oil in the valve and bucket area. That is vital else those will run dry. As of now they are oiled via the end caps.
OK I might as well tell you, its gonna be more $ than just buying a head though.
Cool.
Buddha.
I was wondering about that, it wont be expensive cause the machine shop at my tech school does everything for free for me. but i dont know how complicated of a job it would be. ill ask the teacher tommarow. Im also gonna try to JB weld the two peices together. but i am still in the market for a used head.
No JB weld will not do it. There is a savage guy that did it to his and it lasted a whopping 600 miles ... GS if anything is harder on the end caps cos there is 1 so far apart. Savage has 3 in a shorter space.
Yea you're gonna have to do the needle bearings buddy ... put some pics up, we need inspiration too ...
Cool.
Buddha.
How the heck does one break a camshaft cap? Seems like there would need to be something else wrong with the engine for that to happen.
Can the caps be re-welded and re-line bored to restore tolerance? Or would it be easier to cut out for the needle bearings?
Gotta say, I think a used head is the way to go.
yea i think a used head is the way to go too. they broke cause when i was taking them off i didnt loosen all 8 bolts, 2 for each cap in equal measurement, i just unbolted one cap then the next and they broke. Tell me more about this needle bearing thing though, buddha mentioned that too. and no they cant be welded cause theyre magnisium. alot of parts are and thats just stupid. the camshaft caps are not the place to save weight if you ask me.
Sounds simple......But in reality you would have to ID and source 4 needle rollers brgs that will take the weight of the cam, its load-cycle and its speed, then hope they are of a physical size that can be made to fit. Then find someone to line-bore the caps and grind the cam journals to a size that will suit the rollers. If the rollers are running directly on them their hardness would have to be checked and if required the journals might need hardening. Then come up with some way limiting cam float that will also allow for thermal growth and of holding the brgs in the caps to prevent them floating out, then of providing a steady oil flow to each brg.
Reliabilty would be another issue, compare the cam journal surface area in contact between a plain bearing and a needle roller, its far less with a needle roller and this might be significant.
Throw enough time and money at it and it could be done, if someone sat down and did the maths they might even guarantee it as well, but its a complicated and expensive solution to a problem that doesnt exsist..............not when you can buy a used head, maybe a whole engine and in some parts of the world a complete bike! for what the above might cost.
You can weld it all day, its aluminum.
The caps will not break if you just unbolted 1 bolt then the other. Look carefully maybe its a casting run not a crack. BTW I have seem a lot of hamfisted bikes ... never did one have this broken.
Cool.
Buddha.
Gregvhen: I wont weld it though if it is cracked.
Sledge: Loading will not be an issue, needle bearings of that size take great amounts of load.
The issue will be maybe temperature ... maybe. You may have to get one with that looser tolerance than the ones without temperature as a factor.
OK if you're runnign it in with the cam shaft as the inner race then yea you need the hardening etc etc. But you may be able to get one that has an inner race that is thin enough that can be seated on the cam shaft end.
Yea in theory ... but in the real world it could cost more than the bike ... I'd estimate 100-200 for it in my neck of the woods + the $ for the bearings.
Cool.
Buddha.
"You can weld it all day, its aluminum." "Look carefully maybe its a casting run not a crack. BTW I have seem a lot of hamfisted bikes ... never did one have this broken."
it cant be welded. and i dont think its just casting run, cause..........its in two differant peices.
I have welded to the cap whay are you talking about. However if its a crack across the thing it should not be welded. Cos there again the align boring comes in. I welded to the side of mine. Easy. If you send it to me I'll get it welded and send back ... but since its a bearing and the inside surface has an ID that needs to be right to like a 1000th and has to be centered at that exact spot it is set at now, its not an good idea to weld it. Its aluminum, easy to weld. Just dont take it to Magnus Magnusson with his stick welder.
OK if you're sure its a crack, I cant see it so I am going to say OK. 2 places can be a casting porosity though ... I havhe a literal spider web in the xs on the right side. Looks like garbage. But harmless.
Cool.
Buddha.
no its definetly not just a crack, i said earlier its in two peices. in fact both B and D are in two peices. the welding teacher at my school said they cant be welded. i dont think theyre aluminum im pretty sure theyre magnisium. its a 97 so maybe your year is differant, i doubt it, or maybe your thinking of a differant part. ill get a pic when i get home. i took one but when i put it on the computer they almost dont show up at all.
<a href="http://s966.photobucket.com/albums/ae150/gregvhen/?action=view¤t=CRW_1076.png" target="_blank"><img src="http://i966.photobucket.com/albums/ae150/gregvhen/CRW_1076.png" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
like i said you cant see them, but im talking about the 4 little C shaped caps that hold down the camshaft.
2 pieces - the caps are broken in 2 pieces. OK fine they are dead.
The cyl head and parts of it are not magnesium. Dude even bikes that have magnesium dont have nothing more than covers and what not in magnesium. Internal parts that take heat and tolerance is not apt for magnesium. Its cast and not that impure aluminum. I mean its not pot metal grade aluminum.
If it wasn't machined and align bored, I will weld it and it will not come apart ... trust me.
I have welded up that same part on 2 different years, 89 and the 02 I was working on last year, His cam chatter was so annoying, he couldn't take it. So I welded it to it was down to 1/10 of an mm and it became whisper quiet.
Anyway, I wont weld it in your case.
Put pics - close up of the busted parts. We can suggest somehtign else maybe.
Cool.
Buddha.
BTW I have welded to the engine case on a savage - here is pics -
http://picasaweb.google.com/srinath.the.man/SavageStarterClutch#
The very first pic has it visible. There is a broken wall for a pivot pin on that part between the big gear and the starter gear. That carries the starter idler gear. I have welded it on 2 different savage's in the past including this one. I have to date put 2K on it and never had a problem. That previous one was sold around the time I got 1000 on it and it also never gave me trouble.
It needs to be ground, cleaned and welded like you weld aluminum (tig torch with the right filler rod) ...
Cool.
Buddha.
I was thinkin id drill a small hole in each end of the broken peices, and JB weld them together with a steel dol. the tought part with this is making sure that the dole is put in at the exact angle to line up the peices to exactly where they belong. Unless i can get my hands on a used head soon. but ill take pics when i get home tongiht.
Oh yea ... its not got a snoball's chance in hell of being right. Might as well weld it. In fact thinking about it, you could weld it with it bolted on the head mostly welding from the outside - top side. Then You could find a reamer of that exact size as the cam and ream it. Or end mill in a milling machine. Just dont wallow out the diameter.
Bloody hell ... if I had it ... I know exactly what I'd do ... especially if the head is outside.
Screw that - OK find a place in your town that will be able to coat things with moly/teflon. That coating is ~3/10'ths of an mm thick and it takes in oil and holds on to it. That is nearly perfect for your situation. You weld it, then you mill it and if you did graze the un welded part, no biggie, you will put moly/teflon and get the surface back to the original size. Now they do these to nascar crank bearings, cylinder walls and many others. These buggers dont wear, and retain oil so they never give you a dry start.
Check these guys out.
http://www.hmelliottcoatings.com/bearings.html
http://www.hmelliottcoatings.com/coatings.html
http://www.hmelliottcoatings.com/pistons.html
They would blast the surface and make it look a little like it was cast metal. Then their coating goes on and it holds on the little porus surfaces in there. Then your cams now run in oil soaked teflon ... no worries.
Yea plastiguage the thing first so you know its not too small or too big for the coating.
Cool.
Buddha.
dang, that sounds expensive though. but if you insist that it can be welded, would you be able to bolt the two peices, (actually 4 cause i broke 2 clamps) to your head and weld them. Cause you can make them line up perfectly, since no materails was lost, the peices will still fit together to wear you wouldnt know theyre broken, and then could you weld them?
I'd be much more comfortable welding them bolted in the head they came from with the mating cam shaft in place atleast till the weld penetrates enough to not let it warp into a new position.
Really its best welded in the spot its spent all its life.
Those guys would prolly ding you for $5 a pop ... so 20 bucks optimistically. You're not sending it to me are you ... dude find a guy in your town. OK fine I am in nascar counrty and this crap actually grows on trees in Mooresville. However you cant be out of it all together in CA.
Cool.
Buddha.