My bike 89 GS 41K+ miles... Of late has started making this clunk while cold starting. The first or second try it lets out this clunk noise and starts 3rd or 4th try... Usually after sitting 3-4 days, when cold. everythign is in spec, and bike has K&N filter and Pipe and has had these mods a looooong time. What gives up???
Cool.
Srinath.
Does it clunk when engaging or when it has already started? It sounds like transmission. But if it's making the noise when engaging, I would suspect the starter, starter gear, starter engagement gear. It's old so something has worn. You may take off the starter and re-seat it. Look at the engagement gear before you put it back in. If it's a plastic gear like on my 250...well, until you know for sure, good luck!
Its before starting...
Also it has on occassion started to crank and all of a sudden stop... like battery was dead... then I let got of strater and hit again.. and it starts... Wear on the starter teeth... you think... I thought bad alternator, isn't charging battery fully and hence a sorta weak battery, but I checked friday and the bike made 13.8V at idle (1500).
Cool.
Srinath.
What does the battery read with the engine off (which is when it is turning the starter motor)?
Is it "CLUNK, ver-er-er-er"?
Might just be that when it does that both cylinders are past TDC of the compression stroke, so the starter easily takes up the gear slack and turns it the quarter stroke, but then when it gets some resistance it bogs down.
But if it is a mechanical problem, sounds more like the centrigual clutch (the thingy behind the gen fly wheel)....
The battery is 12.8 or so wihtout the load of the starter ... When the starter is cranking then no idea what it is.... Its usually clunk and stop... The centrifugal clutch... is that the same as starter clutch... OK maybe... It also seems to be from the center of the motor under the crabs... instead of from the right side...
Cool.
Srinath.
There's your problem right there. You have crabs in your bike.
:P
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Mine does the same exact thing. The battery is a little weak. It does it more often when I haven't used it for a few days. I have never had time to investigate it. I just release the starter, try again and it will start and run just fine. Let me know what you find.
Id suspect the starter when it just stops on its own and then when you push the button again it starts up, my car does this when I turn the key it will start to turn but stop or it will draw on the battery but nothing will happen, I bet your starter is starting to go.
OK does this bike have any sorta shims in the starter... to keep it at the right distance from the other mating gear... I'm thinking if tose shims are replaceable with thinner ones...
Cool.
Srinath.
Maybe its that cheap walmart battery! :nana:
seriously though, mine does this as well.. once in a while... i think its the starter.. but i dont really care..lol.. it starts. No i dont think there are shims.. the starter gear just meshes with the other gears..
Thats not it dude.
Its the battery. These starters are near indestructable. That KLR I had (and uses an identical starter motor) was exhibiting the same problem, even worse, sometimes it would crank, sometimes it wouldn't do anything. I fiddled with the switch, I even totally dismantled the starter looking for something wrong. But just changing the battery make the problem go away.
My theory is that if the battery doesn't have the juice to turn the motor over TDC, sometimes it looses even enough strength to even hold the starter relay open.
To test the battery you really need to do a battery load test with the correct equipment - a battery load tester.
Voltage readings from the battery with no load connected will only indicate a totally stuffed battery that isn't charging or holding charge. What you need to test is "can the battery supply the right amount of GRUNT (power = VA) to turn the engine over?". Take it to a battery shop as most of them have a battery load tester. Another way to test the condition of the battery if its an unsealed unit is to measure the specific gravity of the solution in the battery.
Cheers
Conrad
The battery idea could be it because when my car did it the battery in it then was very weak, Im talking when left to sit for 3 days it was dead.
Hmm ... I have the same "problem". mine sounds like kind of a thudding sound which I noticed this spring. I have a 2000 GS. It will only do this after several of days of sitting. It is not always coincident with the problem of starting the bike. The starting problem is more regular. It seems like the starter moves the pistons a little and then gets to a spot where it doesn't have the juice to keep going. If I release the starter button and then re-apply it immediately, the motor turns over.
I never thought of it as a problem because the bike always starts. The first time I heard the thudding sound though I thought something was very wrong :o but the bike seems to behave normally. I just chalked it up to being "a weird noise" since I had no clue what it was and the bike seems OK.
Could the noise be caused by an intake valve that is moving a little slow due to the cold? If the motor pumped a little air into the airbox it might sound a little like a thump. I'm pulling at straws ... :oops:
Rob
Quote from: JamesGThese starters are near indestructable.
Yea but Srinath has experience with Yamahas so he is used to crappy starters, hense his bias.
No its not the cheap battery... Cheap... the damn thing was $55... Cheap... twice the cost of the regular battery... Sealed and powerful... and it does have power... I cranked the bike 30 times... it strats and I kill it, and over and over... This evening leaving work the strater went whirr, whirr clunk whirr whirr and vroom...so I decided to see if it makes it again... and to see if battery can crank it a few times... no problem for battery, and it never made that noise again...
Also the bike never makes it when warm... Its the starter... Hey moose sell me your starter... if it got low miles... Or Gino sell me your spare... or should I start searching in my various piles for one... who knows where it may be hiding... Its the starter... I cant imagine anything else... or a misfire. but it doesn't sound like it at all... yea I know there is a million kinds of misfires but this dont sound like any of them...
Cool.
Srinath.
Just as a total punt in the dark. The bikes have a wet clutch, after standing for a while and especially when cold the clutch and flywheel can 'stick' as the oil is thicker. Maybe the noise is the two un-sticking?
Because of this I always hold the front brake on when engaging 1st gear from a cold start - just in case the clutch is sticking --- some people have experienced the bike leaping forward even with the clutch level fully in after a cold start.
Guessing now
Conrad
Quote from: seshadri_srinathNo its not the cheap battery... Cheap... the damn thing was $55... Cheap... twice the cost of the regular battery... Sealed and powerful... and it does have power... I cranked the bike 30 times... it strats and I kill it, and over and over... This evening leaving work the strater went whirr, whirr clunk whirr whirr and vroom...so I decided to see if it makes it again... and to see if battery can crank it a few times... no problem for battery, and it never made that noise again...
Also the bike never makes it when warm... Its the starter... Hey moose sell me your starter... if it got low miles... Or Gino sell me your spare... or should I start searching in my various piles for one... who knows where it may be hiding... Its the starter... I cant imagine anything else... or a misfire. but it doesn't sound like it at all... yea I know there is a million kinds of misfires but this dont sound like any of them...
Cool.
Srinath.
Hey srinath, i have an extra starter... if you want it make me an offer via pm..
Someone emailed me about it, because i had it on ebay.. but they never got back to me..
The Sprag drive ( i believe its called) the starter clutch, will make this noise once in a while, my yamaha will do this when its VERY cold out, once warm not a problem, the clutch might need new springs, the catches will sometimes slip for a second and then suddenly grab makeing the teeth jaring clunk in lower end almost like puting the bike into first without the clutch, only the bike doesnt jump. what grade oil are you using? i found 20/50 does this alot when outside temps are low. 10/30 helps. i used a spot lamp under my engine once as a block heater so the oil wasnt overly thick. laugh all you want, it worked. takes about 4 hours to warm up lower end with 75W bulb, HIGH INTENSITY flood light, one with Warning Hot surface do not touch. only takes about an hour. or just leave a 50W on alnight under the engine. hehheheehe
What Blueknyt said, right on target. I've had that clunk in at least 2 of my bikes in the past including the 97 GS. Been awhile since I've heard it.
The little springs in a sprag clutch don't really take any load, they just hold the rollers in place till the wedge action grabs the rollers when the starter motor engages. When the engine starts it speeds away from the starter motor allowing it to freewheel til you release the starter button.
A lighter oil could possibly get rid of the noise. I've only had it in cold weather. I seem to remember you were using some straight 40 weight oil or something like that due to oil consumption. Probably get rid of the noise with some good 10W-40 oil, but then you'd probably quickly get rid of the oil too. :lol: :lol: :lol: Anyway, I quit worring about that noise like the the other infamous noise in the top of the GS engine that many have heard at idle on a hot GS. I wouldn't fret about either noise too long. :thumb:
I have 1 qt 20/50 in it with 2 qts Lucas oil stabiliser... That thing is like paste... So OK it could be the reason. I will switch to thinner oil and see... Yea its very thick and very cold... Would spinning the rear wheel before starting help... or something else like that.
Cool.
Srinath.
The GS doesn't have a sprag type starter clutch. It has 3 cylinders that are spring loaded on ramps that bear against the crankshaft. It is on the left side of the engine, behind the alternator rotor.
Some sealed lead acid batteries can't supply the peak current that a liquid lead-acid battery can. It could be that when the starter needs a lot of current to turn past TDC, the sealed battery doesn't have the current capability. A second later, the compression has leaked down some, and the starter windings cooled some, and it kicks past TDC.
I would try a normal battery, and maybe a different starter. The bearings in the starters can start to drag, or you get shorts in the windings from over-heating that increase the current draw, and decrease the torque.
The 2 battery I have had this issue with was one of those black walmart ones. The one I had before was a stock grey one that comes in the Yamaha R1's... valve regulated lead acid battery... It just wanted to stop cranking over... This one must have more punch than that cos it cranks right past the clunk... Ok I'll try a regular battery... this bike will fit any battery... including a lawnmower battery...
Could the starter have wear on its gear teeth... making it get more play... and then clunks when it re engages ..
Cool.
Srinath.
I doubt it. Unlike car solinoid starters, the GS's starter gear stays permanently meshed with the other gears of the reduction train. The only area of weakness is the starter clutch. If the little bearing springs go, then it might slip like you mentioned, but I think it would do it consistantly...
If you really want to find out about the starter. Its fairly easy to remove. You don't have to take off the side cover, and only take a little hunting to insert it back against its gear.
Quote from: KevinCThe GS doesn't have a sprag type starter clutch. It has 3 cylinders that are spring loaded on ramps that bear against the crankshaft. It is on the left side of the engine, behind the alternator rotor.
That's it, what we're talking about. It's an overrunning type starter clutch of the sprag type. The one in the GS is of the roller-ramp type. I expect to be technically correct only the ones with the rectangular type elements should be called sprag type and the ones with the rollers like the GS should be called roller-ramp type. We mostly called them all sprag type as opposed to the bendix, solenoid, etc types found in automotive type applications.
Here's a roller-ramp type made to replace Ducati's sprag clutch. You see they refer to it as a roller-ramp type sprag clutch.
http://www.ducatimeccanica.com/Howdi/default.htmlAlso a thing on BMW sprag clutch problems, thinner not thickers oils seems to be their answer.
http://www.ibmwr.org/ktech/sprag-clutch.shtmlI'm using the 15W-40 fleet oils now in all three bikes. Have been for about a year. Using the Mobil Delvac 1300 oil.
Srinath, you should just re-build that thing so it runs on normal oil! The GS has all those little oil jets to meter the oil flow everywhere, and I'm sure real thick oil is going to starve some parts.
I've got one brand new Suzuki first over-size piston and ring set, if you can find another.
Yeah, the starter gear is always engaged with the gear train. And you can pull the starter without touching anything but the sheet metal cover over the starter. Maybe you have to pull the tank and carbs to get to it.
QuoteI have 1 qt 20/50 in it with 2 qts Lucas oil stabiliser... That thing is like paste...
uh, if your gs is Requiring this mixture to run, yeah, time to do something about it. only reason i use 20/50 or straight 40 is cuz it gets so damn hot down here in south fla, and traffic jams do happen, 10/30 and 10/40 get too damn thin for my liking. i havent used any synth lubes at all. even though its a ramped/roller overrun clutch it still falls in the original tacumsa lawnmower/edger pullstart clutch, the non plastic rebuildable 4 ball bearing SPRAG clutch design. its mearly refined. no, turning the wheel wont help, the lightbulb trick, or heated garage bit might work. but watch out for fuel leaks and fumes. when its like 50-60 degrees in south fla, thats bloody cold to us and our cars. after about 20 mins of pumping the damn starter button over and over cuz clutch didnt want to grab long enough to start the engine. i put a 60W bulb under the engine near the starter clutch area over night. didnt have an issue then, cept 8 hours latter at work, but then it was warmer out and wasnt so bad.
Well Lucas oil stabiliser isn't needed to run it... I can quit anytime... yea I can man...
Never mind... The oil leak really gets worse with any other type of oil, not to mention the burning... However it was so hot from May to sept... I prefered to use that. I'll switch to the 20/50 soon. Just wanted to wait another week before I did it....
Cool.
Srinath.
where are the leaks srinath? clutch pushrod? countershaft? oil pan? Unless your missing CHUNKS of gasket in places, there are things you can do to bandade the leaks and not require cookie dough to lube your engine, the ages of shoe leather bearings and sawdust in the crank are past. just from the # of bikes you have mentioned and watching you give advice on this board, i know you have the wrenchin knuckles to make this better dude.
Yea... But I am Laaazy... Never mind... House stuff is keeping me bussssssssy.... anyway lucas oil additive makes oil stick better... Cams were slippery with it when I opened to adjust it, the dip stick part above the area immersed in oil also has oil on it all the time... Its real sticky... I dont think pumping it takes more time either... The oil light goes off quicker on cold starts. The stuff is different from 40wt ... It dont increase viscosity I think... Just makes it stick. Now I probably have too much of it in the bike for the present weather... 1 qt of it to 2 oil should be my winter mix... I dunno, it is my frist experience with it. The gaskets are getting a good look soon...
Cool.
Srinath.
You might want to try Castrol GP 20W50 (mineral) It cuts on oil-consumption and also seems to stick very good to engine parts, at least better than the Shell semi-synth. Also very good at high temps. Think riding uphill at 5 km/h,stop and go in 35C weather with the almost max. combined weight the GS can handle (365 kg) and for 10 mins long.
1 more point: it isn't expensive :P
OK changed the goo and put oil in it instead, 10W40, its been cold around here... and the clunk is still there. So The oil is not it. However the 10W40 might make the oill seepage much more obvious.. and I'll fix it at last. But the clunk... what gives... or is about to give...
Cool.
Srinath.
What about the oil pump? The light goes off quicker, but does that really mean the pump might not be wearing out? Is the clunk consistent like JamesG mentioned regarding the starter clutch bearings?
Well oil pump light takes the same time more or less to go off. The noise is from right under the carbs.... where the starter is... Also doubt if the oil pump will make this noise and still make any pressure. It disappears when warm, or when the bike is running.
Cool.
Srinath.