Just doing a routing valve adjustment to find my right cylinder cam bearing cap has a small crack. The one labeled "B"
Bike has just shy of 4500 miles.
What gives? I cant find the bearing on bikebandit anywhere??? The cylinder head fische slide has them separated but no part number???
I have owned well over a dozen bikes & I have never seen a failure like this.
Think it's safe to ride? I was planning a trip to Niagara in a few weeks.
Any help is much appreciated.
Fissel the Missile
http://s884.photobucket.com/albums/ac45/FisselMissile/GS500%20Images/?action=view¤t=GS500BearingCap2.jpg
I think they're bolted to the head and then machined for the cams. That makes each one unique and you can't mix and match without a trip to the machine shop.
I might be wrong, but that's what I heard.
Is it under warranty? Cause yikes.
Bike is a 2001, just super low mileage & pampered. So what are my options? New Head? That runs upwards of $750??? Take my chances with a used head from ebay??? What a pice of $hit. Guess I got myself a lemon?
Are you sure it's cracked and not just an imperfection in the casting?
-Jessie
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on April 18, 2010, 08:06:50 AM
Are you sure it's cracked and not just an imperfection in the casting?
-Jessie
What he said, If you can find a lab pipette or a eye dropper with a small opening to disburse a very small drop of dyed liquid (penetrating oil) onto what looks like the crack. Then see where if migrates into the crack or rolls off. If it rolls off it's just a casting imperfection, if it sucked in, well that's bad.
100% certain it is cracked. Sorriest excuse for a casting I have ever seen. Did you see the link to the pictures? I am an ASE certified heavy diesel tech & Air National Guard Aerospace tech. I can tell the difference. Maybe if I could find someone who was a very able aluminum welder??? We have a couple of guys on base who specialize in alloys. The bigger picture is this really saps any confidence I have in the reliability of the bike. It is obviously a poor casting from the factory.
Sorry if I seem to be ripping on the GS, but I am fairly fed up with it right now.
I'd be pissed too. That's purely a material and workmanship defect, entirely Suzuki's fault.
With any luck, the rest of the bike is fine, though, whatever consolation that is. How much would it cost to fix?
A complete used head would be the easiest fix.
-Jessie
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on April 18, 2010, 06:23:56 PM
A complete used head would be the easiest fix.
-Jessie
The idea of putting a used head on a bike with just 4,420 miles on it bothers the hell out of me. It's not something I should have to do.
as much as that sucks, couldn't you just get a new set of bearing caps, and have a machine shop hook you up to get those done? I'd feel cheated if I were you too, but I'd go contact a suzuki dealership, and make sure there's nothing they can do for you ( which might not happen). Never know, you might get a lucky break and get a deal/freebie
What a bummer! Definately DON"T ride it, sooner or later, probably sooner, that cam is going to escape and do major damage.
I agree that the most likely economical fix is a good used head. At least you'll have some spare parts.
One other possibility (and I'm no machinist) would be to see if a machine shop could take a few thou off the bottom of a used bearing cap and then re-machine it to match your head, but I doubt that's feasible.
Certainly the caps are machined together with the heads as a unit and are not available seperately (new), and you can't just swap them off another head.
Quote from: Missile on April 18, 2010, 08:38:34 PM
The idea of putting a used head on a bike with just 4,420 miles on it bothers the hell out of me. It's not something I should have to do.
I know you shouldn't have to do anything but the sad truth is you do have to do something. A Suzuki dealer isn't going to do anything on a 9 year old bike regardless of how low of miles it has. You can either part it out, fix it and sell it, or fix it and ride it. The cheapest and easiest routes to the 2 latter options is a complete used head. If it's any consolation I also had engine problems out of an '01 with low miles too. Good luck :thumb:
-Jessie
Can you post a picture of the crack, is it in two pieces? Can it be machined and have a new bearing surface put on?
There are some lemons in this line just like every other manufacturer. My bike spun a rod bearing at 6200 miles and 4 months off the show room floor. Problem is Suzuki will look for any reason to wiggle out of any responsibility for anything major. I had to put a salvage motor in my bike after going round and round with Suzuki and the stealership. The dealership didn't turn a wrench on the bike for 10 weeks, then lied about how it happened, how bad the damage was and tried to pass parts off as belonging to the bike that didn't belong to the bike. Long story short these bikes are either really good or they suck. You'll find out if they suck fairly quickly (first 10K). Good thing is parts are readily available and fairly cheap. After that they are great. Oh and I will NEVER buy another brand new Suzuki after the treatment I got from them but I'll ride this one till the wheels fall off. After 20k on the second motor I really like it.
I have the disassembled head of the original motor from my bike. I haven't looked at it for a couple of years but it's been in a large plastic container so I'll bet it still just fine. If you decide to go the new head route I'll back up the "Pay it forward" thread I started over in "for sale" portion of this site and give it to you for what it costs to ship it to you. All I'll ask is if you chose to take it just do something for someone else when the opportunity arises.
Quote from: lilwoody on April 19, 2010, 09:43:36 PM
If you decide to go the new head route I'll back up the "Pay it forward" thread I started over in "for sale" portion of this site and give it to you for what it costs to ship it to you. All I'll ask is if you chose to take it just do something for someone else when the opportunity arises.
That is very cool of you :thumb:
-Jessie
are you sure it was cracked? or did you crack it when taking them off? if you dont unbolt the caps evenly they break. like two of mine did. and thats bad. i just JB welded them back together. the intake cap is still JB welded good, but the exhaust one broke. I just bolted the two peices back on anyway and it runs fine. dont know how long it will go though haha
You're kidding....right?
A testement to JB Weld or.... THE #1 Kludged repair???? Time will tell :thumb:
I wouldnt be happy with it and I hope if/when the caps do let go its not at high revs/speed and doesnt cause the engine to lock-up and send you skidding down the black-top on your ass.
Quote from: the mole on April 21, 2010, 04:42:41 AM
Quote from: lilwoody on April 20, 2010, 09:03:18 PM
You're kidding....right?
What he said!!!!!!!!!!!!!
100% SERIOUS the exhaust cap on the the right side is in two peices, just both bolted down. Ive run prolly 200 miles like that so far.
Also, its not Aluminum, its magnessium[/size]. Some people say theyve had them welded before when i asked a while back, but the welding teacher at my school said it couldnt be. so i dont know who to beleive, cause the teacher at my school is as close to a welding god as Ill ever know.
Quote from: gregvhen on April 21, 2010, 08:35:05 AM
Quote from: the mole on April 21, 2010, 04:42:41 AM
Quote from: lilwoody on April 20, 2010, 09:03:18 PM
You're kidding....right?
What he said!!!!!!!!!!!!!
100% SERIOUS the exhaust cap on the the right side is in two peices, just both bolted down. Ive run prolly 200 miles like that so far. Also, its not Aluminum, its magnessium[/size]. Some people say theyve had them welded before when i asked a while back, but the welding teacher at my school said it couldnt be. so i dont know who to beleive, cause the teacher at my school is as close to a welding god as Ill ever know.
I'm hoping your teacher doesn't condone using JB Weld to repair bearing caps!! At the very least you are looking at a destroyed engine if that lets loose. Now imagine it letting loose while you are doing 60 mph on a busy highway! Spend a few bucks and make it right with a used head before you hurt yourself or others. My 2 cents...
-Jessie
700 bucks may be a few to you, or even 125 (the best price i could find used) may be a few bucks, but thats alot for me. and i trust that it will hold. in order for something bad to happen the camshaft would have to be putting enough pressure on the cap to break it in a new spot and have the detached peice break off. then that peice could fall into the crankcase and lock something up, and the chain could come off the cam and fall into the case and lock up the engine. yea, this would be bad to lock up at 80mph, but im trusting that it wont. at least until i find a cheap enough head. You got one you wanna sell me fo 50 bucks?
Your teacher, like most teachers is 100% correct :thumb:
The cap is not made from magnesium, its made from an alloy formed mainly from aluminium magnesium and zinc. Pure magnesium lacks mechanical strength and would be totaly unsuitable for the application. Yes it can be welded by several methods however owing to high thermal conductivity heat distortion is a big problem when welding magnesium alloys. Given the fact it the cap is a high precision component with very little mass it will probably come out the other side looking like a banana and be so far out of tolerance its doubtful it would even go back into place let alone maintain the required clearances between the cam and the cap itself.
Quote from: gregvhen on April 21, 2010, 11:58:18 AM
700 bucks may be a few to you, or even 125 (the best price i could find used) may be a few bucks, but thats alot for me. and i trust that it will hold. in order for something bad to happen the camshaft would have to be putting enough pressure on the cap to break it in a new spot and have the detached peice break off. then that peice could fall into the crankcase and lock something up, and the chain could come off the cam and fall into the case and lock up the engine. yea, this would be bad to lock up at 80mph, but im trusting that it wont. at least until i find a cheap enough head. You got one you wanna sell me fo 50 bucks?
Only you can decide what your life is worth. Mine is worth enough not to risk things riding a bike with a known serious mechanical defect. You put time, effort and $$$ into making the frame and all look nice, why not put as much time, effort and $$$ into making it mechanically sound? I don't have any spare heads at the moment but if the OP doesn't take lilwoody's generous offer you should speak to him :thumb:
-Jessie
Quote from: gregvhen on April 21, 2010, 11:58:18 AM
700 bucks may be a few to you, or even 125 (the best price i could find used) may be a few bucks, but thats alot for me. and i trust that it will hold. in order for something bad to happen the camshaft would have to be putting enough pressure on the cap to break it in a new spot and have the detached peice break off. then that peice could fall into the crankcase and lock something up, and the chain could come off the cam and fall into the case and lock up the engine. yea, this would be bad to lock up at 80mph, but im trusting that it wont. at least until i find a cheap enough head. You got one you wanna sell me fo 50 bucks?
You do realize you are playing Russian roulette with a automatic pistol right? It's not a matter of if this "fix" will fail but when. It sounds like you are a young man just starting life, don't squander your well being because you can. I know I offered the disassembled head I have to the other fella first but if he doesn't take or will forgo to you I'll give it to you for the shipping cost to try to keep you from killing yourself and/or possibly others. I'll dig through the garage tomorrow to see if I can get all the parts together.
If money is that big of an issue the cap can be welded for now. Take off the head and leave the cap bolted in place with the camshaft through the bores. The dowels will be a big help keeping the cap centered while the weld cools and give the best chance to minimize the tendency to spread.
With respect to the OP, it's also not obvious to me that the crack is the result of a bad casting :whisper: Many years ago I learned to be very cautious after trying to loosen a stubborn cam cap bolt by tapping on a short wrench with a hammer and ended up with a crack just like the one in the picture :o I was so >:( >:( >:( I couldn't bear to internalize the blame :cry: :cry: :cry: I had it welded for $15 and it held up :woohoo: until I sold the bike--at a steep discount :angel: :angel: :angel: Well, the :angel: is a stretch; let the buyer beware:icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: I have since learned that there is a higher level of morality :oops:
Alright I'm in the Air National Guard & a friend in another unit is certified on a vacuum welding chamber so I removed the cap & had him weld it, both sides, then had machine shop clean up the bearing surface. Just got it back together & everything seems fine. Thinking I may still sell the bike though, we'll see. For the guys asking about pics, there was a link in the opening thread that provided pictures. And yes it was totally cracked, when I removed the bolts it came off in two pieces.
I guess I was lucky to have access to a $180k piece of welding equipment & someone willing to help me out.
Quote from: lilwoody on April 21, 2010, 08:14:47 PM
Quote from: gregvhen on April 21, 2010, 11:58:18 AM
700 bucks may be a few to you, or even 125 (the best price i could find used) may be a few bucks, but thats alot for me. and i trust that it will hold. in order for something bad to happen the camshaft would have to be putting enough pressure on the cap to break it in a new spot and have the detached peice break off. then that peice could fall into the crankcase and lock something up, and the chain could come off the cam and fall into the case and lock up the engine. yea, this would be bad to lock up at 80mph, but im trusting that it wont. at least until i find a cheap enough head. You got one you wanna sell me fo 50 bucks?
You do realize you are playing Russian roulette with a automatic pistol right? It's not a matter of if this "fix" will fail but when. It sounds like you are a young man just starting life, don't squander your well being because you can. I know I offered the disassembled head I have to the other fella first but if he doesn't take or will forgo to you I'll give it to you for the shipping cost to try to keep you from killing yourself and/or possibly others. I'll dig through the garage tomorrow to see if I can get all the parts together.
If the OP doesnt want that head anymore, and you still wanna ship that to me, at my expense of course 20 bucks for shipping or whatever it is i can afford, i couldnt thank you enough, PM me if he doesnt want it
Good news, I've dug out the head. Bad news, the thieves at STRIETS MOTORSPORTS in Gainesville, who farked me on the warranty omitted one cam bearing cap and one bucket shim. They also didn't put the timing chain in the box of parts (doesn't matter for you) and didn't label where the cam bearing caps go. The cams also have some surface rust (3 years in a garage in S. FL will do that. So I guess you have 2 choices. Put this head together with your parts and these parts. Or use these bearing caps to replace your broken bearing cap. I'm not sure what the tolerances are for them but I'd imagine it is similar to mains (maybe around .004". If you mike it out well one of these 3 might be good. I'd think the Budda fella on here could give you much more insight than I can. Either way you'll be much better off than riding with a JB Welded bearing cap. Let me know how you want to go.
Quote from: lilwoody on April 29, 2010, 09:01:55 AM
Good news, I've dug out the head. Bad news, the thieves at STRIETS MOTORSPORTS in Gainesville, who farked me on the warranty omitted one cam bearing cap
It's screwed without that one bearing cap. They probably broke it!
Quote from: lilwoody on April 29, 2010, 09:01:55 AM
Good news, I've dug out the head. Bad news, the thieves at STRIETS MOTORSPORTS in Gainesville, who farked me on the warranty omitted one cam bearing cap and one bucket shim. They also didn't put the timing chain in the box of parts (doesn't matter for you) and didn't label where the cam bearing caps go. The cams also have some surface rust (3 years in a garage in S. FL will do that. So I guess you have 2 choices. Put this head together with your parts and these parts. Or use these bearing caps to replace your broken bearing cap. I'm not sure what the tolerances are for them but I'd imagine it is similar to mains (maybe around .004". If you mike it out well one of these 3 might be good. I'd think the Budda fella on here could give you much more insight than I can. Either way you'll be much better off than riding with a JB Welded bearing cap. Let me know how you want to go.
yea, i was thinking that the caps off another head cant be that far off that they wouldnt work. i mean i know it has to be pretty precise, but i wouldnt think itd be off by anymore than .0005 or so of an inch. so you could send me 3 caps then and ill pay shippin? ill PM you my address and stuff and just reply and let me know who to paypal and how much, thanks again for doing this
I would think that a slightly off cap is better than a JB welded cap?
i've talked with some friends about fixing a sheared bolt for extraction out of a head before I outsourced the labor. Apparently JBweld has a retarded high tensile strength. The website has hundreds of claims about how crazy people have used it for all kinds of uses, including fixing a cracked head in a dragster. I would imagine when done properly, you could possibly put enough of the stuff in the cap, then sand off the excess, making sure to keep it out of the portion that rides against the cam. http://jbweld.net/products/uses.php (http://jbweld.net/products/uses.php)
QuoteProperties (psi)
Tensile Strength: 3960
Adhesion: 1800
Flex Strength: 7320
Tensile Lap Shear: 1040
Shrinkage: 0.0%
Resistant to: 500° F
Mechanics -- you can use J-B WELD with confidence. It is designed for safe, reliable, permanent repairs in engine compartments and heated environments up to 500° F. It's strong as steel and impervious to water, gasoline, chemicals, and acids. Working with J-B WELD is quick, easy, and convenient -- and saves you time, work, and money!
Not recommended for use on manifolds, exhaust systems, and other engine components which normally operate at temperatures above 500° F.
Quote from: gregvhen on April 29, 2010, 09:34:30 PM
, but i wouldnt think itd be off by anymore than .0005 or so of an inch.
Thats half of 1 thousandth of 1 inch???......I admire your optimism :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: sledge on April 30, 2010, 11:16:29 AM
Quote from: gregvhen on April 29, 2010, 09:34:30 PM
, but i wouldnt think itd be off by anymore than .0005 or so of an inch.
Thats half of 1 thousandth of 1 inch???......I admire your optimism :icon_mrgreen:
yea i know, im sure theyve gotta be within the range apart. i couldnt imagine it being any more offset than that. they are all the same engine and computers/machines wouldnt make too much bigger of a differance between heads.
I measured the 3 caps that I have. I put them on a level and measured with a dial caliper and they all measured exactly the same. So if they are off it's by less than .001. The cam journals measure the same too, at least not noticeable on a caliper that measures to .001. After checking this it appears that this just might be horse pucky from Suzuki about the bearing caps, we'll see how well they work on Gregvhens bike. Nice scam to get you to buy a complete head for hundreds of dollars because you broke a 10 dollar part that is overly fragile to start with. Sort of like the little stupid window on the front master cylinder that deteriorates in a couple of years. A dollar part and they want you to replace the 175 dollar master cylinder.
A vernier measurement of a cap wont tell you a thing. What matters is the diameter of the complete journal, thats your cap when fixed on Gregs head. The two halves need to be the exact same dameter otherwise the journal will not be circular. It could result in the cam being to tight, to loose, misaligned or lead to low oil pressure and oil starvation on the bearing surface.......Then you have to hope the fixing bolt holes in the heads and the caps are in the same place relative to the centerline of the journal otherwise the cap will be offset and affect the clearance even more.
Its not a scam by Suzuki, to manufacture these parts with 100% interchangability would dramaticaly increase costs. Its far easier and cheaper for them to manufacture each head this way.
I totally agree with sledge.
You might possibly get very lucky and find that another cap would be close enough to work, but no way would I assume it would without very careful measuring of the bore when the cap is installed on the head.
Some how one of the three went MIA over the weekend. I have no idea where it is so I sent the 2 i had. They are in route on me, let us know how they work. It can't be any worse than the one you have.
Great thanks goes out to Lilwoody, i got some caps from him in the mail yesterday, put em on to replace my two broken ones and they worked great, no gaps, no low oil pressure, just smooth riding and no more worries about dying. unless i get hit by a women driver anyway. again, thank you lilwoody
Your welcome, ride safe and have fun.
Hopefully you won't kill your engine by doing this.
As the first poster in this thread correctly wrote, each cap is unique. You can't exchange them without honing or similiar. Some may work better than others (pure luck), but on the long run you will most likely kill your camshaft. Ever wondered why they have no part number?
Agree with the above :thumb:
Have you measured the clearances and concentricity and are they within makers spec`. Or are you assuming that because it "fits" its ok?
Quote from: acid on May 10, 2010, 11:26:28 AM
Hopefully you won't kill your engine by doing this.
As the first poster in this thread correctly wrote, each cap is unique. You can't exchange them without honing or similiar. Some may work better than others (pure luck), but on the long run you will most likely kill your camshaft. Ever wondered why they have no part number?
yea i know this, i did have to get honed a little bit by my schools machining teacher, but it wasnt off by much, so they fit now
How much off was it?
His engine was dead already. If he cooks the cam so what? He will only be back to where he was in the first place, needing a whole head assembly for a part that should be much more robust and cost 30 bucks max. If it were me I'd do exactly the same thing, then if it failed I'd replace the whole motor. These bikes have motors readily available over the internet with very low miles for less than the cost and aggravation of purchasing and installing a head. For that matter for any internal failure, I'll replace the motor over splitting the case or pulling the head. I've already done it once and wouldn't hesitate to do it again.
Quote from: sledge on May 10, 2010, 04:06:39 PM
How much off was it?
dont know, he didnt say, just told me he only had to take a very small amount, relatively speaking of course. i didnt ask, and i trust him since not only is he the machining teacher, he is friends with my parents cause his son plays sports with my little brother, and i help coach. so i know he would do what he can to make it right and keep me safe. and like lilwoody said, if it still doesnt work after some miles, its worth a try cause the worst that could happen is the engine lock up and id have to buy a new top end anyway. which would be unlikely. say the cam freezes, the cam chain isnt gonna stop the engine alltogether (which still wouldnt be too deadly), the chain is just gonna jump teeth unitl the motor stops turning. the piston will compress, and the exhaust wont open so all the air will just release when the intake opens again. I would hear this, as well as feel the cam chain jumping, and pull in the clutch and coast to the side of the road. say the scenario goes another way, and the cam chain breaks (unlikely this would happen before jumping teeth) andthe chain then flys around inside and gets lodged down by the crank and freezes the crank, id feel this as well and pull in the clutch before the crank actually freezes. remeber were talkin no less than 1200 rpms, if by chance it happens at idle, so even as low as 1200 rpms, the crank and chain will come to a grinding hault rather than an instant freeze. Now, say that doesnt happen either, say something goes wrong and worst case, the engine just immediatly freeses with no warnings in time to pull in clutch. so what, the back wheel skids and i pull in the clutch. this is only possibly deadly if it happens around a sharp turn and i fly into an on coming car. cause if its not a sharp turn ill just turn the bars and drift to a stop, and if is sharp then i wont be moving fast enough to kill me if i slide into a brick wall, or gaurd rail, or tree or whatever. only an oncoming car could kill me.
It is my beleif that there is a higher chance of me getting hit by a woman driver who got scared of a squirel in her lane and crossed over 3 lanes to nail me head on while Elton John veiws the scene from a purple building alongside the road. Oh, and if anyone feels like this story is directed angerly at you, its not. i just went over in my head a hundred times and finally decided i had nothing better to do than type it out.