Hey there riders,
I bought my first motorcycle yesterday. A 2004 GS500F. It doesn't run but was told by a friend (who I bought it from) that all it need is a carb cleaning and new battery.
So I started the teardown today. This is my first experience with motorcycle motors, pretty much motors in general so I'm hoping for some help. Here we go..
Getting her off the trailer...
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4016/4619925250_4f38708470_b.jpg)
Okay here come the questions...
Question: The mechanism in the middle right of the photo is what allows you to take off the seat. I can't figure out how to disconnect it so that I can take that side panel off. I can someone help me out here?...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3403/4619926290_ed123b8a36_b.jpg)
Got the tank and other side panel off just fine...
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4032/4619313313_3eb7da8b36_b.jpg)
Question: These are the top of the carbs right?:o My goal is to "clean the carbs" so that my bike will start...
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4072/4619314089_9f118444df_b.jpg)
Question: This picture is taken underneath the carbs. Like I said I want to make sure the bike will start so... Above that wire (right where it gets fat) there is a opening and it kinda looks like it opens to the internals of the carb. Around it looks like there has been some overspray of some kind and it has collected dirt. Is that an opening where I can spray carb cleaner and then possibly not have to remove the carbs themselves?
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3323/4619928576_2f3bed896e_b.jpg)
Question: This picture is again taken from the top of the carbs. I think these are caps to the carbs?:confused:. When I tried to take the screws off they wouldn't budge. As you can see I stripped them a little bit. I sprayed them with WD-40 as well. Any suggestions?
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3352/4619315557_581b66bb91_b.jpg)
Another picture of the screws that won't move...
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4047/4619929818_36eaa067fa_b.jpg)
Please help me out guys! I'm out of my element here.
Yea those bolts are made out of cheese and tightened at the factory by their resident gorilla (or is that godzilla) to 10,265,387 ft/lbs of torque and with red loctite.
Break out the drill boy and start drilling. Why you think buddha charges 5 bucks for each of these boogerated screws.
Cool.
Buddha.
You need to completely remove the carbs from the bike before you try to disassemble them or you'll have parts flying all over the place.
No, you can't just spray up from the bottom into those holes. That hole doesn't lead anywhere I don't think...
Gotta get the carbs off the bike. Remove the airbox, remove the carbs, disassemble the carbs, clean them with spray or bucket carb cleaner.
As for the stuck philips, my go-to tool whenever a philips won't budge is an impact hammer. They're about ~$20 or ~$30. It's a mechanically actuated driver that you hit with a hammer made of heavy metal.
Quote from: The Buddha on May 18, 2010, 02:38:04 PM
Yea those bolts are made out of cheese and tightened at the factory by their resident gorilla (or is that godzilla) to 10,265,387 ft/lbs of torque and with red loctite.
Break out the drill boy and start drilling. Why you think buddha charges 5 bucks for each of these boogerated screws.
Cool.
Buddha.
You the man :bowdown:
Drill :o?!? That scares me a little. This is my first rodeo so could you be a little more detailed in how to go about drilling them out?
To take off the side fairing, look at where the cable is attached to the bike right above the rear wheel. See the ball looking stopper? Just lift it up from the groove.
Also, those are not phillips, really - part of why they strip so easily when attacked with a phillips driver. They are JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) - if you get an impact screwdriver and JIS bits, you might yet be able to get them out. Replace them with real screws.
http://www.rjrcooltools.com/vessel.cfm (http://www.rjrcooltools.com/vessel.cfm)
The details on the difference:
http://www.rjrcooltools.com/jis.cfm (http://www.rjrcooltools.com/jis.cfm)
Quote from: romulux on May 18, 2010, 02:42:40 PM
You need to completely remove the carbs from the bike before you try to disassemble them or you'll have parts flying all over the place.
No, you can't just spray up from the bottom into those holes. That hole doesn't lead anywhere I don't think...
Gotta get the carbs off the bike. Remove the airbox, remove the carbs, disassemble the carbs, clean them with spray or bucket carb cleaner.
As for the stuck philips, my go-to tool whenever a philips won't budge is an impact hammer. They're about ~$20 or ~$30. It's a mechanically actuated driver that you hit with a hammer made of heavy metal.
Impact driver? Like one of these - http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00915232000P?vName=Tools&cName=HandTools&sName=Screwdrivers&psid=FROOGLE01&sid=IDx20070921x00003a
How does it work? It seems like this could risk cracking the carb itself.
Quote from: DoD#i on May 18, 2010, 02:58:41 PM
Also, those are not phillips, really - part of why they strip so easily when attacked with a phillips driver. They are JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) - if you get an impact screwdriver and JIS bits, you might yet be able to get them out. Replace them with real screws.
http://www.rjrcooltools.com/vessel.cfm (http://www.rjrcooltools.com/vessel.cfm)
The details on the difference:
http://www.rjrcooltools.com/jis.cfm (http://www.rjrcooltools.com/jis.cfm)
Never heard of this so thank you. Are these sold at sears or home depot?
Quote from: numnutz on May 18, 2010, 03:01:29 PM
Impact driver? Like one of these - http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00915232000P?vName=Tools&cName=HandTools&sName=Screwdrivers&psid=FROOGLE01&sid=IDx20070921x00003a
How does it work? It seems like this could risk cracking the carb itself.
Yeah, that's it. Yes, you could risk breaking something. You have to make sure there is something solid behind it before you go hitting it. If you have a drill, just use a bit about 1/4" in diameter, drill the heads off the screws. Or, if you have left-handed drill bits, sometimes they will just grab the screw and turn it right out. Or, use a dremel to cut the screw head off, or cut a slot in the head then use a flat blade screwdriver. Or, use a pair of vice grips to squeeze the bejeezus out of the screw head and turn.
Lots of options. The only one everyone here will agree on is for you to replace the cheese-screws with philips-head or socket-head cap screws.
Quote from: Paulcet on May 18, 2010, 03:22:32 PM
Quote from: numnutz on May 18, 2010, 03:01:29 PM
Impact driver? Like one of these - http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00915232000P?vName=Tools&cName=HandTools&sName=Screwdrivers&psid=FROOGLE01&sid=IDx20070921x00003a
How does it work? It seems like this could risk cracking the carb itself.
Yeah, that's it. Yes, you could risk breaking something. You have to make sure there is something solid behind it before you go hitting it. If you have a drill, just use a bit about 1/4" in diameter, drill the heads off the screws. Or, if you have left-handed drill bits, sometimes they will just grab the screw and turn it right out. Or, use a dremel to cut the screw head off, or cut a slot in the head then use a flat blade screwdriver. Or, use a pair of vice grips to squeeze the bejeezus out of the screw head and turn.
Lots of options. The only one everyone here will agree on is for you to replace the cheese-screws with philips-head or socket-head cap screws.
Perfect. Thank you.
Should I take the airbox off before the carbs?
This is all going to end in tears :icon_eek:
Quote from: sledge on May 18, 2010, 03:37:38 PM
This is all going to end in tears :icon_eek:
I'm not mad because I have been on forums before but on every thread I have posted you have been a jerk. I'm only 18 and coming to forum members for their help and knowledge. I saved all my money for this bike and working with what I have so I'm kind of tired of your smart comments. If you don't have anything nice to say please just refrain from posting in my threads anymore.
Thanks.
Dude before you go impact drivering or drilling try vice grips. I ran into trouble with mine and the vice grips worked like a charm. Also, Lookup basic carb theory on the net, it should help a lot. There is also some free manuals floating around the forum. Take your time, go slow, take pictures so you know how to put it back together.
Quote from: numnutz on May 18, 2010, 03:53:10 PM
I'm not mad because I have been on forums before but on every thread I have posted you have been a jerk.
Ahhh haha in your face.
Hey man you're on the right track. The carbs aren't complicated, but they're somewhat intimidating until you get through it the first time. Just pull off the airbox, then remove the carbs from the motor, then start pulling them apart when you have a nice clean space to work at. Have a couple different sized screwdrivers, some ziplock baggies and a sharpie to mark things. Only pull one carb apart at a time so you don't worry about mixing parts between the two(plus once you get through one the second will be a piece of cake). The impact driver helps, but if you have vice grips I'd just try that first. My second option would be to take a backsaw or small cutting wheel and cut a slot straight across for a flathead screwdriver. Any options of drilling it sound like a last resort to me.
Once you pull it apart, get some rubber gloves, a can of carb cleaner, and yank a bristle out of a wire brush and go at every hole in the carb and jets to get it as clean as you can. I've had to pull my carbs apart a couple times this spring to get my bike working right, but I promise once you get through it once(will take a couple hours) it will only take you a half hour to do both.
Good luck with it, and make sure to ask questions if you're not sure. 95% of this bikes problems are cured by messing with the carbs, so we're pretty familiar with them. We'll all do our best to keep sledge under control.
Ooh, and the bike looks fantastic by the way. Looks like it's right off the showroom floor, with the exception of the gunk on the carbs of course.
Quote from: tt_four on May 18, 2010, 04:18:22 PM
Ahhh haha in your face.
Hey man you're on the right track. The carbs aren't complicated, but they're somewhat intimidating until you get through it the first time. Just pull off the airbox, then remove the carbs from the motor, then start pulling them apart when you have a nice clean space to work at. Have a couple different sized screwdrivers, some ziplock baggies and a sharpie to mark things. Only pull one carb apart at a time so you don't worry about mixing parts between the two(plus once you get through one the second will be a piece of cake). The impact driver helps, but if you have vice grips I'd just try that first. My second option would be to take a backsaw or small cutting wheel and cut a slot straight across for a flathead screwdriver. Any options of drilling it sound like a last resort to me.
Once you pull it apart, get some rubber gloves, a can of carb cleaner, and yank a bristle out of a wire brush and go at every hole in the carb and jets to get it as clean as you can. I've had to pull my carbs apart a couple times this spring to get my bike working right, but I promise once you get through it once(will take a couple hours) it will only take you a half hour to do both.
Good luck with it, and make sure to ask questions if you're not sure. 95% of this bikes problems are cured by messing with the carbs, so we're pretty familiar with them. We'll all do our best to keep sledge under control.
Sweet. Great post. Thanks!
Quote from: tt_four on May 18, 2010, 04:19:30 PM
Ooh, and the bike looks fantastic by the way. Looks like it's right off the showroom floor, with the exception of the gunk on the carbs of course.
Quick detailer by meguiars works wonders :thumb: It's just a spray liquid that you wipe off with a towel. Check it out. Also partly the camera. Nikon D90. Costs more than the bike.
You are way out of your depth Num` and hitting this thing from the wrong angle, there is no sugar coating the fact. You need to step back and start applying some logic to all this. I will give you a tip take it on board or not its your choice.....Before you start pulling things apart risking damage and generaly wasting your time and money put a new battery in it and see if it turns over and sparks. If it does....THEN start thinking about the carbs.
Over to you :thumb:
Quote from: sledge on May 18, 2010, 04:49:02 PM
You are way out of your depth Num` and hitting this thing from the wrong angle, there is no sugar coating the fact. You need to step back and start applying some logic to all this. I will give you a tip take it on board or not its your choice.....Before you start pulling things apart risking damage and generaly wasting your time and money put a new battery in it and see if it turns over and sparks. If it does....THEN start thinking about the carbs.
Over to you :thumb:
Okay now that's a positive comment that I can use and work off of. Thank you.
I have charged the current battery to full. Hooked up the battery and the bike does turn over. The battery however can not hold a charge and after a few times getting it to start the battery is dead again. I am going to purchase a new battery tomorrow.
When I purchased the bike the peacock valve was open and he said that it had been open for a few months at least. This without a doubt means that the carbs are going to be screwed up regardless of anything else that is.
Yes, if you have a Dremel tool with a cutoff wheel you can turn the Philips screws into slotted and get a lot more torque on them. Any screws like this, throw away and replace with Allen screws. As a general rule of thumb, be careful with any screw going into aluminum and don't overtighten. Aluminum is sticky and strips easily.
As some folks have said, don't just assume you need to take the carbs apart in order for the bike to start. You may be missing on checking a few things. Make sure fuel is getting into the bowls of the carbs. The petcock (not "peacock", haha) has a vacuum component that relies on a fitting from one of the carbs, and if that's disconnected, you get no fuel.
Other thing is make sure you're getting a spark. Definitely pull out the plugs and check the condition.
The carbs fit into hard rubber boots mounted to the engine. Give the boots an examination to make sure they're not messed up. That could affect your performance.
That bike looks like it's in very nice shape. Before March, my bike hadn't started in 3 years and although it ran rough, it still started. Take your time, try and not pull stuff apart unnecessarily, and keep posting with your progress.
Quote from: twelvepoint on May 18, 2010, 05:32:50 PM
Yes, if you have a Dremel tool with a cutoff wheel you can turn the Philips screws into slotted and get a lot more torque on them. Any screws like this, throw away and replace with Allen screws. As a general rule of thumb, be careful with any screw going into aluminum and don't overtighten. Aluminum is sticky and strips easily.
As some folks have said, don't just assume you need to take the carbs apart in order for the bike to start. You may be missing on checking a few things. Make sure fuel is getting into the bowls of the carbs. The petcock (not "peacock", haha) has a vacuum component that relies on a fitting from one of the carbs, and if that's disconnected, you get no fuel.
Other thing is make sure you're getting a spark. Definitely pull out the plugs and check the condition.
The carbs fit into hard rubber boots mounted to the engine. Give the boots an examination to make sure they're not messed up. That could affect your performance.
That bike looks like it's in very nice shape. Before March, my bike hadn't started in 3 years and although it ran rough, it still started. Take your time, try and not pull stuff apart unnecessarily, and keep posting with your progress
I doubt your bike was left outside and uncovered with the petcock left open for months.
Everything looked good underneath the tank. Is there a picture of the vacuum component? Or a diagram?
I'll address something noone else has....the side and rear plastics. Easiest way to get them off is:
1)Remove the seat.
2)Remove two bolts holding the passenger handle (12mm i think).
3)Remove four bolts holding the plastics (10mm).
4)Pull on either side plastic and pop loose the two plugs that are just pushed into rubber bushings.
5)The cable that unlocks the seat can be removed by cutting the zip tie holding it to the brace the seat locks into and lifting the ball end of the cable out of it's little cradle on the lock mechanism. (Just don't forget to hook this back up before putting the seat back on!!)
6)Pull entire rear and side plastics off the rear of the bike. They should come off as one piece.
Good luck!
I personaly doubt that a few months standing would result in the carbs becoming that clogged to such an extent that the engine wont start, but you have to weigh up my opinion against against yours and that of your friends. I will say you really dont want to be tearing into those carbs until you are 100% sure they are the source of the problem.
Next step, again if you choose to follow my advice, ensure you have fresh fuel in the tank and that it flows through both taps and into the carbs. Make sure you have no kinked or trapped lines and that they are correctly routed into the tap and carbs. Then drain both carb bowls into a clean container until clean fuel shows. Also check the choke linkage on the carbs is free to move with the cable.
When you buy the new battery get a can of easy-start too. Fit the battery, pull both plugs out lay them on the cylinder and check they are both sparking as the engine turns over. Assuming they do refit them, set the tap to Prime (PRI) pull the choke and as it cranks over squirt the easy-start into the airbox, it will help if you remove the filter. If you are lucky the engine will catch but you might have to try it a few times. If the bike still refuses to start then its time for a rethink....oh one other thing ensure the engine is holding sufficient oil before trying to start it
Again.....over to you :thumb:
EDIT......Get a shop manual too.
Quote from: sledge on May 18, 2010, 06:03:29 PM
I personaly doubt that a few months standing would result in the carbs becoming that clogged to such an extent that the engine wont start, but you have to weigh up my opinion against against yours and that of your friends. I will say you really dont want to be tearing into those carbs until you are 100% sure they are the source of the problem.
Next step, again if you choose to follow my advice, ensure you have fresh fuel in the tank and that it flows through both taps and into the carbs. Make sure you have no kinked or trapped lines and that they are correctly routed into the tap and carbs. Then drain both carb bowls into a clean container until clean fuel shows. Also check the choke linkage on the carbs is free to move with the cable.
When you buy the new battery get a can of easy-start too. Fit the battery, pull both plugs out lay them on the cylinder and check they are both sparking as the engine turns over. Assuming they do refit them, set the tap to Prime (PRI) pull the choke and as it cranks over squirt the easy-start into the airbox, it will help if you remove the filter. If you are lucky the engine will catch but you might have to try it a few times. If the bike still refuses to start then its time for a rethink....oh one other thing ensure the engine is holding sufficient oil before trying to start it
Again.....over to you :thumb:
EDIT......Get a shop manual too.
That's a lot of info.
Well the carbs are still on the bike so I think I'll hold off on that. Tomorrow, I'm going to check the plugs, probably get new plugs, get fresh gas, probably change the oil, get a new battery. I can do all of that.
What confuses me is the stuff you said after that...
"Make sure you have no kinked or trapped lines and that they are correctly routed into the tap and carbs. Then drain both carb bowls into a clean container until clean fuel shows. Also check the choke linkage on the carbs is free to move with the cable.
When you buy the new battery get a can of easy-start too. Fit the battery, pull both plugs out lay them on the cylinder and check they are both sparking as the engine turns over. Assuming they do refit them, set the tap to Prime (PRI) pull the choke and as it cranks over squirt the easy-start into the airbox, it will help if you remove the filter. If you are lucky the engine will catch but you might have to try it a few times. If the bike still refuses to start then its time for a rethink....oh one other thing ensure the engine is holding sufficient oil before trying to start it"
I'm going to try and sum it up with some questions...
-Check for blocked lines
-The tap is where the petcock valve is right?
-How do you do this, "Then drain both carb bowls into a clean container until clean fuel shows. Also check the choke linkage on the carbs is free to move with the cable."?
-So I take the air filter out of the airbox and spray the easy start right into that opening? Also, I've heard easy start causes problems for engines and turns them into "junkies" like they won't start without it after a few tries with it.
Quote from: numnutz on May 18, 2010, 05:56:42 PM
Quote from: twelvepoint on May 18, 2010, 05:32:50 PM
Yes, if you have a Dremel tool with a cutoff wheel you can turn the Philips screws into slotted and get a lot more torque on them. Any screws like this, throw away and replace with Allen screws. As a general rule of thumb, be careful with any screw going into aluminum and don't overtighten. Aluminum is sticky and strips easily.
As some folks have said, don't just assume you need to take the carbs apart in order for the bike to start. You may be missing on checking a few things. Make sure fuel is getting into the bowls of the carbs. The petcock (not "peacock", haha) has a vacuum component that relies on a fitting from one of the carbs, and if that's disconnected, you get no fuel.
Other thing is make sure you're getting a spark. Definitely pull out the plugs and check the condition.
The carbs fit into hard rubber boots mounted to the engine. Give the boots an examination to make sure they're not messed up. That could affect your performance.
That bike looks like it's in very nice shape. Before March, my bike hadn't started in 3 years and although it ran rough, it still started. Take your time, try and not pull stuff apart unnecessarily, and keep posting with your progress
I doubt your bike was left outside and uncovered with the petcock left open for months.
Everything looked good underneath the tank. Is there a picture of the vacuum component? Or a diagram?
It was in New England, outside, barely covered for 3 years with the carbs dangling off the engine! 2 months ago I was about to junk it but I decided to give it one last try and with a new battery, it started right up.
At the back of the petcock is a smaller size hose. That's the vacuum fitting, and mine was not in good shape, so I disabled it entirely (yours is likely working just fine, so don't screw with it!). But the deal is without a vacuum, the fuel gets cutoff, and your engine will stall. Anyway, just be aware that's how this works. It's so that if you park the bike and forget to turn the petcock off, AND for some reason your floats don't work right....in that incredibly rare scenario, the vacuum keeps gas from pissing all over the ground.
I'd recommend bypassing the petcock entirely when you try and get this started, and use a temporary fuel tank > inline fuel filter > carb. It just eliminates one variable, and you won't have to deal with a big gas tank when you're mucking around with the carbs. My temporary "tank" was a plastic funnel hanging from the handlebar, with some fuel line stuffed into it and epoxied all around. Probably other folks have more elegant solutions, but hey, it worked for me...
Also, did you mention whether you had a service manual? If not, get one now. It'll have a lot of photos and diagrams and will absolutely clear up a lot of confusion about part names and locations.
Quote from: twelvepoint on May 18, 2010, 07:22:02 PM
Also, did you mention whether you had a service manual? If not, get one now. It'll have a lot of photos and diagrams and will absolutely clear up a lot of confusion about part names and locations.
Yea I'm going to order a haynes manual. Just need to get paid first.
Can anyone answer my questions in post #22. Or three posts above this one.
Sheesh ... I take a few hours to get home and this is what happens.
OK drilling is almost a must cos the front screws on the top isn't accessible with vice grips.
You can do the jis screwdriver thing but dont be surprised if they still strip, cos I got jis and have a success rate of 50%.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: numnutz on May 18, 2010, 03:01:29 PM
Impact driver? Like one of these - http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00915232000P?vName=Tools&cName=HandTools&sName=Screwdrivers&psid=FROOGLE01&sid=IDx20070921x00003a
How does it work? It seems like this could risk cracking the carb itself.
Yup, that's identical the one I have except I didn't get a case.
It's one of my favorite tools cause it's worked every single time I've needed it.
Whenever I get close or start to actually strip a Philips style fastener, I get it out. The bit it comes with is excellent and grips just about any fastener and I frequently don't even have to hit it with a hammer. Just having that good bit grabs the screw often.
The way it works is you put the bit in the fastener head like a normal screwdriver. The handle part swivels a few degrees in either direction. You turn the handle in the direction you want the fastener to turn until it stops. Then, you give a nice tap with the hammer. This drives the heavy handle portion down onto an angled wedge internal to the driver and provides a strong impulse down into the fastener with just a hair of rotational force. The combination of those forces really helps loosen stubborn fasteners.
It's a great tool to have.
An electronic version of the service manual can be found by way of this thread:
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=51216.0
Quote from: romulux on May 18, 2010, 07:56:14 PM
Quote from: numnutz on May 18, 2010, 03:01:29 PM
Impact driver? Like one of these - http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00915232000P?vName=Tools&cName=HandTools&sName=Screwdrivers&psid=FROOGLE01&sid=IDx20070921x00003a
How does it work? It seems like this could risk cracking the carb itself.
Yup, that's identical the one I have except I didn't get a case.
It's one of my favorite tools cause it's worked every single time I've needed it.
Whenever I get close or start to actually strip a Philips style fastener, I get it out. The bit it comes with is excellent and grips just about any fastener and I frequently don't even have to hit it with a hammer. Just having that good bit grabs the screw often.
The way it works is you put the bit in the fastener head like a normal screwdriver. The handle part swivels a few degrees in either direction. You turn the handle in the direction you want the fastener to turn until it stops. Then, you give a nice tap with the hammer. This drives the heavy handle portion down onto an angled wedge internal to the driver and provides a strong impulse down into the fastener with just a hair of rotational force. The combination of those forces really helps loosen stubborn fasteners.
It's a great tool to have.
Do I need to put something around the carbs, or can I use this tool the way the carbs are sitting in the bike now?
Quote from: numnutz on May 18, 2010, 08:08:50 PM
Do I need to put something around the carbs, or can I use this tool the way the carbs are sitting in the bike now?
Before you do anything at all to the carbs, you need to physically remove them from the bike.
Whatever you're using the tool on needs to be solidly held either against the ground or in a vice or something solid since it's working by transmitting that force against the resistance of the fastener.
It might still work with it attached to the bike, but it probably won't. The rubber carb boots holding the carbs to the head and airbox will absorb much of the impact, I think. You'll stress the airbox plastic, too.
Quote from: romulux on May 18, 2010, 08:15:07 PM
Quote from: numnutz on May 18, 2010, 08:08:50 PM
Do I need to put something around the carbs, or can I use this tool the way the carbs are sitting in the bike now?
Before you do anything at all to the carbs, you need to physically remove them from the bike.
It might still work with it attached to the bike, but it probably won't. The rubber carb boots holding the carbs to the head and airbox will absorb much of the impact, I think. You'll stress the airbox plastic, too.
Okay cool thanks.
I suggest re-reading what sledge said in his last post. Now that he's being helpful, I'd hang on every word! If you don't understand, ask questions, use the search function and get a shop manual. Your bike needs 3 things to run. Compression, fuel and spark. If you get a good battery, fresh fuel (and make sure its getting to the carbs) I 99% guarantee it will run. It doesn't look old enough to have bad compression. The other 1%...its been abused.
Good luck!
Congrats on the new bike and welcome to the forums! :)
I agree with Sledge and the mole - tearing apart carbs is
not step #1. Several other options are more likely to be successful for you. If it works out, Sledge's approach can save you a lot of grief. If not, the carbs aren't going anywhere.
It sounds like your battery needs to be replaced either way; you might as well buy it now.
Good luck!
Quote from: the mole on May 18, 2010, 10:20:20 PM
I suggest re-reading what sledge said in his last post. Now that he's being helpful, I'd hang on every word! If you don't understand, ask questions, use the search function and get a shop manual. Your bike needs 3 things to run. Compression, fuel and spark. If you get a good battery, fresh fuel (and make sure its getting to the carbs) I 99% guarantee it will run. It doesn't look old enough to have bad compression. The other 1%...its been abused.
Good luck!
Yup. I'm very happy with this forum. You guys really know your stuff. Thanks for all your help!
Today's list is:
Spark Plugs, Probably new
New Battery
New Oil
New Gas
If no luck:
Pull the airbox and carbs and clean them up.
Sounds like a good plan!
Quote from: numnutz on May 19, 2010, 05:51:12 AM
Spark Plugs, Probably new
Just buy new ones... and make sure they are gapped correctly
Quote from: numnutz on May 19, 2010, 05:51:12 AM
New Battery
Good idea. Make sure the shop tops up the acid levels properly. You will also have to wait several hours (probably until tomorrow) for the battery to be fully charged. The shop usually takes care of this the first time. Don't rush it.
Quote from: numnutz on May 19, 2010, 05:51:12 AM
New Gas
Yup. In addition to replacing the gas, make sure both (yes, there are two of them) fuel petcocks are fully open (frame petcock on PRI). You will also need to ensure that fuel is actually reaching the carbs. This means draining the float bowls, waiting, and checking again to make sure new fuel got there.
You should also ensure the choke mechanism is moving freely. You will probably need to use the choke for the first start up.
Quote from: beRto on May 19, 2010, 07:24:27 AM
Yup. In addition to replacing the gas, make sure both (yes, there are two of them) fuel petcocks are fully open (frame petcock on PRI). You will also need to ensure that fuel is actually reaching the carbs. This means draining the float bowls, waiting, and checking again to make sure new fuel got there.
You should also ensure the choke mechanism is moving freely. You will probably need to use the choke for the first start up.
Thanks!
By both petcocks, you mean the one visible on the side of the bike and the one under the tank?
What are, and how do you drain the float bowls?
What is the process for checking the choke mechanism?
A float bowl, a drain, and the screw you turn to open the drain (slotted/philips closest to the right side of picture.) In the background, past the idle speed adjustment knob pointing down, the same thing on the other side of the bike (the screw on that side faces that side.) Put something under the "spout" (or put some 1/8" fuel line on the spout) so you don't drip gas everywhere, and open the screw to drain what's in the float bowls. Then put the frame petcock to prime and verify that you can get more (and it looks cleaner than what first came out probably did).
(http://www.gstwin.com/images/how_to/floatheight/Dscf2431.jpg)
The Carb end of the choke cable. Make sure that this moves when you move the choke lever on the handlebar. If it doesn't, you can move it at this end for the purposes of seeing if the bike will start, and replace the choke cable after you know the bike actually runs. Probably fine if it was fine a few months ago. Lubing the cable can help, but generally replacement is needed when they start to get sticky, as they have rusted internally at that point. Lubing the new one can help prevent rust.
(http://gstwins.com/photogallery/albums/userpics/18550/normal_11-29-08_1417.jpg)
Okay great thanks!
So to clear up that picture
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3319/4622516363_60b98c7af1_o.jpg)
That correct?
Not that it was particularly unclear, but yes, that's correct. One float bowl on the bottom of each carb, thus one on each side to drain, and then check for fuel flow on prime.
Quote from: DoD#i on May 19, 2010, 05:39:05 PM
Not that it was particularly unclear, but yes, that's correct. One float bowl on the bottom of each carb, thus one on each side to drain, and then check for fuel flow on prime.
This is embarrassing but what should the petcock valve be on normally when the motorcycle is just sitting (not running)?
On. It's a vacuum petcock, so On shuts off when not running. So does reserve, but leaving it in reserve by habit will bite you. Prime bypasses the vacuum system - but you should not leave it in prime while parked as you can, by a series of unfortunate events, fill the cylinder with liquid gasoline and kill the engine via hydrolocking.
Okay, I've drained one float bowl. Looked like a Budweiser color. Turned the petcock to prime, then filled directly from the fuel line above the petcock valve. When I opened the screw again. Gas came out in more of a Bud light color but not as much came out as in the original drain. Is that ok?
Anyone?
Looks like you got some good advice here, personally I would not take apart the carbs unless I was sure that was the problem. Try to get the bike to start with out taking it apart. Seems like you have some old gas in there, I'd try to flush out the old crud as much as possible, ya want good clean fuel comming out of there. Get a can of carb cleaner and clean everything on the outside of the carbs, and clean the inside of your airbox too. Also, before you take apart the carbs, I think I would want to check the valve clearances first to see if they are within spec, that could be the reason it stopped working; and not it has also been sitting for a while with old gas and oil inside. Keep trying to get the bike to fire up and maintain idle. Good luck and nice bike!
Quote from: Allen on May 19, 2010, 08:26:35 PM
Looks like you got some good advice here, personally I would not take apart the carbs unless I was sure that was the problem. Try to get the bike to start with out taking it apart. Seems like you have some old gas in there, I'd try to flush out the old crud as much as possible, ya want good clean fuel comming out of there. Get a can of carb cleaner and clean everything on the outside of the carbs, and clean the inside of your airbox too. Also, before you take apart the carbs, I think I would want to check the valve clearances first to see if they are within spec, that could be the reason it stopped working; and not it has also been sitting for a while with old gas and oil inside. Keep trying to get the bike to fire up and maintain idle. Good luck and nice bike!
Thanks, that's kinda the feel I've been getting from everybody.
So I drained the float bowls here are some pictures of the difference in color...
Old gas out
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3357/4623461436_b53d811e28_b.jpg)
New gas in
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4006/4622858179_323d610d0c_b.jpg)
I also checked the spark plugs and they looked perfect...
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4035/4623452986_bd1991e23d_b.jpg)
This prompted my to call the old owner (he finally answered) and he told me the spark plugs and oil were changed about 1K ago. But still months old. When I go to check the oil level though this is what I find...
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4029/4623461224_0fcbc52f05_b.jpg)
How could all the oil be gone or am I not doing something right?
Yeah, you should replace all fluids, keep flushing the gas til it comes clear and then some. Clean everything in site, check all connections. I would also unscrew both plugs and hit the starter to verify both plugs are firing. Put it on the center stand and fill fresh oil and filter. Make sure it is getting good clean gas, clean air, and a good spark. Clean it good on the outside first and try to get it to start up. Are there any reasons the PO suggested why it stopped working in the first place? Or did it just sit in storage?
Quote from: Allen on May 19, 2010, 08:48:17 PM
Yeah, you should replace all fluids, keep flushing the gas til it comes clear and then some. Clean everything in site, check all connections. I would also unscrew both plugs and hit the starter to verify both plugs are firing. Put it on the center stand and fill fresh oil and filter. Make sure it is getting good clean gas, clean air, and a good spark. Clean it good on the outside first and try to get it to start up. Are there any reasons the PO suggested why it stopped working in the first place? Or did it just sit in storage?
He said that the carbs are dirty. He said that when we started it the first time after awhile of it sitting he would have to spray carb cleaner directly into the airbox. That when it was running he had keep the engine above 2500 rpms to keep it from stalling.
I know now that the the battery is very dead, unchargable basically, so that is a problem. I charged it for 30 mins and hooked that battery up. It turned over a few times but the headlight would go very dim when I did so it seems like a crappy battery.
What if he thinks its the carbs, but doesn't really know? I mean, I thought my bike ran poorly because of the carbs too, ended up being tight valve clearances, do you have any feeler gauges? I'd keep charging the battery and try a few more times to get it to fire up, maybe some starter fluid. If no luck I'd remove the valve cover and just check to see if the clearances are within spec. You may need another battery, the one you have may be enought to turn on the lights and get it to turn over a little, but may not have enought cranking amps, but just keep charging it and trying for tonight.
check the water level on the battery, you may need to fill it with water then it will hold charge.
Where are you located?
If you're local, I'd be happy to come help sort things out.
I think hes about 2900 miles away or 2 days ride away. :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: Allen on May 19, 2010, 09:56:12 PM
I think hes about 2900 miles away or 2 days ride away. :icon_mrgreen:
Hahaha yup. Wrong side of the country. How high should the water be? It's a little under half full now.
The battery has lead plates inside, they usually are about 1" below the top of the battery. They should be covered with battery fluid at all times, so the normal level is about 1/2" above them. If your battery is only about 1/2 full and its been like that for a while, it is dead, deceased, pushing up daisies. Its probably nailed to its perch.
Num?
Keep this simple and make it easy for yourself, lots of people in here want to help you out but you are in danger of getting information overload and losing track.
Priorities:
Buy a manual and read it cover to cover, then read it cover to cover again.
Buy a NEW battery and fit it
Top the engine oil up.
Check both plugs are sparking
Ensure you have clean fuel flowing into and through both carbs.
Check the choke is free, cable and mechanism.
When the above is done and everything checks out try and start the bike on full choke with the tap set to prime and a shot of easy-start.
Forget about valve clearances at this stage, it was running before it was laid up and clearances dont go out of tolerance while bikes are laid up.
Most important: FORGET what the previous owner has told you and dont bother him again, he doesnt know what he is talking about and now that he has got your cash and rid of the bike will tell you anything you want to hear.
When the bike is running reasonably well and starts on the button evertime THEN you concentrate on the other issues.
About the oil level reading... you won't get a good reading on the oil level unless the bike has been warmed up. Ride around for 15 minutes, let it sit for 2 minutes, and do it again.
Agreed, we want to get it started before you take anything apart. Its a nice bike and will give you many miles and years of service.
Priorities:
Working on it - Buy a manual and read it cover to cover, then read it cover to cover again.
Today - Buy a NEW battery and fit it
Hopefully can do today - Top the engine oil up.
After battery - Check both plugs are sparking
Check - Ensure you have clean fuel flowing into and through both carbs.
Check - Check the choke is free, cable and mechanism.
When the above is done and everything checks out try and start the bike on full choke with the tap set to prime and a shot of easy-start.
About the oil level though...
Even though the bike hasn't been run, shouldn't there be at least a little bit of oil on the dip stick? When I checked the level the stick was bone dry.
Side question: Where can I buy new allen head handle bar bolts that attach the bars to the triple tree?
Quote from: numnutz on May 20, 2010, 05:14:36 AM
About the oil level though...
Even though the bike hasn't been run, shouldn't there be at least a little bit of oil on the dip stick? When I checked the level the stick was bone dry.
Yes. If there's no oil on the dipstick, add oil before you try and start the engine. Careful not to overfill
What position was the bike when you checked it?? It needs to be straight up, either on the centerstand, or just hold it up straight. If you checked it with the bike on the sidestand all of the oil would have been sitting on the other side of the engine. I'd consider just replacing all the oil, which I consider standard practice any time you buy a used bike, even if the previous owner swears he just did it. I usually unscrew the oil checker, wipe it clean, set it back on(you don't need to screw it in), all while the bike is on the sidestand. Then slowly and gently so the oil doesn't slosh to the side, I just stand the bike up straight, again as smooth as possible, then lean it back over onto the sidestand, and pull the dipstick out.
Another important thing, if you're not familiar with engines... When you pull the spark plugs out and stick them in the boots and hit the starter to make sure they're both working, hold the threaded part of the plug against the cylinder so the electricity doesn't actually go through your body. It hurts, and once you do it once, your brain will be so surprised and fried that I forgot to...... I mean you'll forget to do it the next 2 times you hit the starter, and you'll keep shocking yourself. :oops:
Oh yeah good looking out about the gounding the spark plug thing. I just check one side at a time, have one hand hold the plug thread against the cooling fins and hit the starter.
Numnutz, the bottom of the hashed area on the oil dipstick does not represent 'empty'. The bike holds about 2.5 litres of oil, the hashed area represents the top 1/2 litre, so if your oil is just below the bottom of the dipstick you still have 2 litres, so don't worry! Put 1/2 litre (quart) in there and see where the level ends up. Or just change the oil so you know its good.
Thanks for all your help guys. It's going well, I say this because I got a new battery and it started up. Runs like shaZam! but it started...
Here is a video of the sounds it's making
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6ccTAHe7uM
try to avoid revving like that when the bike is on choke.
start the bike, let the rpm's climb by itself. slowly let off the choke as the rpms hit towards 4500 or so to drop the rpms back down towards 1500 or so to be safe. let the bike warm up for a few minutes at least. you will probably need to adjust the idle (knob in between the carbs) and you can do that while the bike is running. if the bike stalls before you let the choke off, increase the idle and see if that helps.
Quote from: pandymai on May 20, 2010, 04:31:53 PM
try to avoid revving like that when the bike is on choke.
start the bike, let the rpm's climb by itself. slowly let off the choke as the rpms hit towards 4500 or so to drop the rpms back down towards 1500 or so to be safe. let the bike warm up for a few minutes at least. you will probably need to adjust the idle (knob in between the carbs) and you can do that while the bike is running. if the bike stalls before you let the choke off, increase the idle and see if that helps.
Okay will do. It seems like the rpms jump immediately to 4500-5000 rpms. Then slowly drop down. When it gets to about 2000-2500 rpms it just dies. So does that mean that I have to keep idle higher than that?
So far so good! If you started it in the video from when it was dead cold, you didn't let it warm up nearly enough. Give it like 5 minutes. Like Pandymai said, don't rev it with the choke on, it's too rich and won't rev smoothly.
Once it's warm and the choke is off you should idle around 1200 RPM and the throttle should accelerate smoothly. If you're at that point, take it for a little ride and get the engine hot and get some fuel really moving through it. Then stop it and check the plugs again for color.
keep it on prime. let off the choke slowly. adjust idle as necessary. the point now is to try to get your bike to run without the choke on. from there we can continue to figure out what's going on.
Congrats! Bike sounds good, you'll be riding that baby soon! Good thing you didn't take it all apart first.
I think you're not too far away from a decent ride.
Normal warm-up process:
Full choke, key on, run switch on, clutch in, start button. (you got that part already) Let revs go to 4-5000 for a few seconds. Then reduce choke, just a fraction to reduce revs to anything between 3-4000, wherever it stays running smoothest. Over the next minute or two, reduce choke a small amount at a time until it runs smoothly at around 1500. Choke is usually all the way off at this point.
Your idle may be way off, but don't adjust it until you are able to run without choke. Some of us here have to keep choke on for 10 minutes, some only a minute or two.
Quote from: Allen on May 20, 2010, 05:09:35 PM
Congrats! Bike sounds good, you'll be riding that baby soon! Good thing you didn't take it all apart first.
Yea really lol.
Thanks everyone. It's coming together. You guys have all been really helpful. I'm hoping only 3-4 more days of maintenance and she will be good as new and ready to go.
Nothing about your video really seemed out of the ordinary to me. It looked like you just need to let the bike warm up a little longer, then adjust the idle properly. If it's too low the bike will just sputter and die like you said yours is. If it's too high you'll get a hanging idle, and when you pull in the clutch and let off the gas to stop at a stop sign or a red light the bike will keep idling by itself at 3k-4k rpm.
Just so you don't feel left out not knowing why your bike doesn't want to start right on the choke(which it very well may run perfect if you just let it warm up longer with the choke on, then adjust the idle), I'll tell you there's something wrong with my choke too. I'm pulling the carbs off this weekend to reclean as I'm wondering if something is clogged and messing up the choke. I can't get my bike to start right with the choke either, only yours looks to be in better shape than mine. Even with the choke on in various positions it only wants to start and run at about 2k rpm for about 2 seconds then dies. I have to ignore the choke, and turn the idle adjust way up and just start the bike that way. It only takes about a minute and I can turn the idle down a bit, and then for the first mile or so I turn it down a little each time I stop at a redlight. It's all just a matter of playing with it for a while until you magically get the right settings.
Just for reference, so you know what you're actually messing with... all the idle adjust screw does is push against the piece on the carbs that the throttle cable pulls. Screwing the idle adjust in is basically the same exact thing as twisting the throttle the tiniest little bit. The choke, well I have absolutely no idea how that one works. Somehow it puts more gas in the mixture, but who knows. It obviously doesn't work on mine, but I can't wait for the day that all I have to do is pull the choke lever to start my bike.
Quote from: numnutz on May 20, 2010, 04:23:30 PM
Thanks for all your help guys. It's going well, I say this because I got a new battery and it started up. Runs like shaZam! but it started...
......ahhhhhh.....a result :thumb:
Congrats man. Just listen to the people on here offering great advice and don't tear anything apart until you have to. Proper warm up technique seems like the only thing standing between you and your frist ride! Keep it up Squeaky Voice haha J/k
Quote from: utgunslinger13 on May 21, 2010, 07:31:54 AM
Keep it up Squeaky Voice haha J/k
LOL Well, his name
is numb nuts! :icon_twisted:
Congrats! Keep listening to these guys. They know what they're talking about.
Its all gone very quiet, I am worried about him :sad:
Hopefully he's out on a ride. Rubber side down, of course.
He's working.
Quote from: Jared on May 23, 2010, 01:33:19 PM
He's working.
Thanks Jared.
Yup been working a lot to try and afford insurance lol. I'm kind of in a holding pattern. Jared and I are going to try and meet up sometime soon to work things out. Hopefully nothing too serious.
Thanks for worrying about me sledge! :icon_mrgreen:
about the vise grips on the carb screws....this usually will work well. Try putting some heat from a hair dryer ( a heat gun is nice but remember they put out super high heat...gotta be careful) on the screw, and douse the screw with some penetrating oil. Let it heat up for a good while.
Apply the vise grips vertically and super tight.....so tight you can barely get them to close. At work (USMC aircraft components) we will sometimes hammer them shut. When you first try to turn the screw, try to wiggle it just a bit, super easy, back and forth. You don't have to have room to get a full turn on the vise grips this way. If you can get it to move a little bit you are probably loose enough to remove the vise grips and use a screw driver if you have not totally buggered the screw head. If you have, move the vise grips slightly and get a partial turn on the screw, and repeat as necessary.
Remember vise grips come in different nose shapes/sizes, and they can be ground thinner, etc.
Put 'em on super tight, tight enough to bite into the screw head, then gently gently try to move the screw.
And take the carbs off the bike first, as has been suggested, so you can get the angles you need.