So I took my GS to the race track for the first time yesterday. And as I feared the Ergonomics still SUCK!!!! Now I understand that this is not a cruiser but I feel like I'm stretching out on the damn rack! I am so uncomfortable that I have a loss of confidence in the bike. The forks are raised and the Vortex clip ons are bellow the top clamp. I can't keep myself off of the tank, I also don't like how it steers (mainly because I feel so dumped over the front)...... I have stomp grips and the helped but not nearly enough. After I crashed I switched to my friends CBR1000RR and what a relief it was!!! Hell my Daytona 675 is like sitting on a recliner compared to my GS.
Now I understand that you need to get some weight over the front so it needs to be brought down. But holy crap this is retardedly low. So I came up with some alternatives, or maybe I'm just a pnazy and need more time to get used to it.
89 clips (may be a smidge to high, hard to say)
Convertibars (best choice but big bucks!!!)
SV650 Clip on's (If they fit they may be a great choice)
Any thoughts???
How tall are you, and where are your clipons positioned?
I have woodcraft clip-ons on my GS race bike. The position is very aggressive, but it works very well with my riding style. I'm 5'10".
I'm 5' 7" and (evenly long in legs and torso). The clip ons are under the top clamp.
Are they positioned far forward, or angled back?
I have some old clipons off another bike on my GS. They're also under the top triple, but the forks are still in the original position. They're not too bad and I'm only 5'8. If anything they're a little low for the street but would be perfect on a track. Why don't you just move them above the top triple clamp?
I wouldn't move them above. On my GS Race bike, I've raised the forks 7mm above the triple clamp. Raising them the 40mm or so required to install clip-ons is going to have a disastrous effect on cornering clearance. I wouldn't feel very comfortable with the handling either.
Strider,
I'm guessing your body position may have a lot to do with your discomfort. There aren't really that many places the clip-ons can go on a GS. Mind are about the same position yours are at, and I find it works fine at the track... But, I run a very aggressive pace.
i have swept the bars back as far as I can without pinching my thumbs between the tank and bars at full lock. I think having the bars on top of the camps would be to high. If I could get them to the level of the clamps or a smidge higher I think I would be more comfortable. The front ending being lowered is dumping me on to the front to much. I know my body position is not perfect but having to keep trying to hold myself off the tank is driving me crazy. I'm going to take a picture of me on the bike and then on my Daytona for comparison (Daytona's are known for having a pretty aggressive seating position compared to most sport bikes). My instructor checked me out on the bike and he thought it was kinda a stretch for me too. Optimally I'd leave them that low but bring them in to me or something....
Thinking about it some more today I think a lot of it has to do with muscles not being strong enough for that extreme of a riding postion. My first GS was stock, then switched to Suburban Machinery bars, which took time to adjust to. Then I got my Daytona, that took time as well and is still getting better. So I'm sure it will get better with time as my muscles build up. I'm just hoping to help them out alittle and be more comfortable while I'm trying to learn. I was going through a turn yesterday thinking "This is so uncomfortable I couldn't race this bike, I'd never have my head in the game".
Do we know if SV650S clipons will fit our bikes? I'd think I could just deal with this but I'm worried about the pychological factor and the role that plays in safety and learning. If I can't get comfortable it will be much harder to learn.
The SV650 clipons won't fit, but I recall that one of the CBR models will... The F1? Search around a bit. Basically, find a bike with the same diameter fork tubes as the GS, and it's clipons should work.
With that said, no matter where the clipons end up, you shouldn't be putting any weight on your arms. Install some stomp-grip pads on the tank. Support your weight using your legs and core muscles. Keep the elbow bent and tucked in.
I think I have the cbr F1 bars on mine.
You've said a couple times you have the front of your bike lowered. If you think the front end is too low, why don't you just put the fork tubes back where they originally were in the clamps? That seems like it would fix your riding position.
That is an option but most people have their GS's lowered in the front to get better turn in. I have not messed with the settings yet. I'vw found this http://www.woodcraft-cfm.com/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=18129 which looks promising. If I need lower I may be able to get something machined. But if I lower the forks in the clamp I'll get back some height, but I wonder how much steering I'll lose....
how much of the forks are above your upper triple? try swapping the clipons from under your triple to above it if there is enough room.
7mm above the upper tripple is the value recommended by my suspension guy. I race. The bike steers fine.
So unless I'm on crack (which is entirely possible) thats like a 1/4 of an inch???
my front end is lowered 1.25" but I have 0.5" preload for a total of 0.75" drop. I didn't notice much turn-in difference over stock.
Yep. Just about 1/4th of an inch. To be honest, I haven't experimented with much more than that. I can say that my belly pan gets pretty close to dragging, and the stock pegs have been ground down pretty far.
.5 inches of pre-load is a little less than stock for this bike, although the front end is so soft that there's got to be an awful lot of rider sag with the stock suspension.
Interesting, I may have to go get this action all dialed in. This picture gives you an idea of how low the front is and the pegs are very ground down too
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs545.ash1/31885_1489351357861_1356283348_1292182_2864114_n.jpg)
Leaving the pits (looks pretty stretched out IMHO)
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs635.snc3/31885_1489351677869_1356283348_1292187_4611315_n.jpg)
I'd say that it looks ok while on the track (ignore my noobie body position)
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs635.snc3/31885_1489351757871_1356283348_1292189_4940243_n.jpg)
(http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs635.snc3/31885_1489351837873_1356283348_1292190_4733334_n.jpg)
I maybe partially mistaking lack of egro comfort for lack of stability........ :dunno_black: I know that I gave myself 2 or 3 clicks more of bound and rebound on my Daytona, it was set up buy a racer I assume like his race bike. It wasn't all to confident till I added those clicks then it was SOLID!!!
Suspension tuning is more of a voodoo art than carb tuning. If you have access to a suspension expert I'd take the bike to them for a look-see. Here in the bay area, Dave Moss of Catalyst Reactions helped me build and setup my GS.
What kinds of problems are you having with your GS? Raising the forks in the tripple will certainly reduce stability, but being 'tight' on the bars can be even more detrimental to stability and comfort. You seem to have my tendency, of 'strong arming' the front end. It's going to make you feel tired, and it's going to make that front end feel very skittish.
Also... What suspension modifications have you performed?
I honestly can't tell you what is wrong with it which is why I wish this :technical: was on a bike not computer. I'm so uncomfortable and am working so hard on staying off the tank that I'm not attentive enough to the bike. It seems to steer fine and ride fine, I can't really seem to put a finger on anything besides the Ergo problem at this time.
As for strong arming, I kinda have to in order to keep myself off the tank. I'm starting to use my legs more on the tank to hold myself off more so now. Maybe I need to work more on that and develop the muscles to hold myself off the tank.
I have a Fox rear shock, Gold Emulators up front with either .95 or .8something springs, with fresh oil. I did not build the bike.
EDIT: The forks stick up 1 and an 1/8th inches over the top of the clamp.
- Are you having trouble staying off the tank in the corners, or on the straights?
- What are you doing with your outside leg when cornering?
- What do you mean by 'staying off the tank?'
Having trouble with the getting off the tank in the corners.
Pressing down on the peg and against the tank to hold myself on the bike. Kinda like an anchor.
My crotch gets pushed up into the tank. I have been told that you should be off the tank by about a fist length. Doing this allows you to move across the bike rather then around the tank. If I could just let me junk sit on the tank I can use that and my legs more efficiently to keep my weight off the bars........
When are you trying to move off the tank? Before you begin braking? At turn in? While you are leaned over?
I try to get off before braking so that I'm doing as much of the body movement in a straight line standing up as I can.
So it would be: Slide back, move butt to side, brake (grab tank with knees as much as I can), counter steer, lean upper body with head leading the bike. I'm trying to remember but once the turn is complete I think I'm right back to humping the tank again.
(http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs635.snc3/31885_1489351837873_1356283348_1292190_4733334_n.jpg)
(http://www.momentumphoto.net/events/cra/09may/220/images/CRA09_BIR05_1328.jpg)
Looks about right, just arch your back a bit more to bring your head down to the tank.
You definitely have enough fork sticking up to just move your handlebars on top of the top triple. I would just start there. My bike probably doesn't feel as stretched out to me because I spend all my time on the street, and most of it is relaxed so it's not a problem if I'm right up on the tank. I definitely feel more stretched out if I scoot my butt back, but that's what happens. If you're riding normal you should be able to support most of your body weight just by holding the tank with your legs and keeping your core tight. Obviously in the turns you can't hold the tank with both legs so some of the weight will go to your hands. I think your coach should be able to do a better job of telling you what's going on than we can.
Aaron do you put your chest on the tank?
Do you think it's just that I don't have the muscles developed enough yet that I'm having troubles? More seat time will sort things out......
It sounds like your approach to hanging off is basically correct. If I were you, I'd get your upper body off the bike at the same time you move your lower body. Keep both your knees locked against the tank under braking. You can hang off and brake at the same time! The only thing you should have to do at turn in is to stick a knee out.
Pay close attention under braking that your arms are relaxed, and that all your weight is supported through your legs and core. If you're putting weight on the bars, it's going to feel like your bike doesn't want to turn, which will lead to panic reaction.
I generally like to have one of my arms resting on the tank. I can't say that my chest rests on it, nor do I want it to. Keep in mind that your clipons are much lower relative to your ass than mine are. I have my clipons up against the top tripple, with 7mm of fork tube showing above the upper triple clamp. You have raised your forks an inch higher in the triple, which means that your clipons are effectively an inch lower.
If I were you, I'd try both dropping the forks in the triple, and moving the clipons above the triple. The final option to consider would be to see if you can find a set of clip-on risers. I believe that you can find clip-on bars with a rise built into them.
As for raisers I looked at the bike and I see that the screws that attach the top clamp around the forks are were the bars would be with raisers. So I'd need to find a different top clamp....
I'll see if I can try both positions at my next track day this weekend.
I'm still putting myself through the steps, the intent is to get to the point where the body moves pretty much all in unison.
I would lower the forks so you have 1 inch or so sticking up. Then make sure the clip-ons are as high as they can go under the triple clamp. Then just learn to ride it, you will figure it out.
THis is what I looked like when I started...
(http://www.momentumphoto.net/events/cra/07may/220/images/CRA07_MAY_0180.jpg)
Quote from: burning1 on June 01, 2010, 11:37:03 PM
Yep. Just about 1/4th of an inch. To be honest, I haven't experimented with much more than that. I can say that my belly pan gets pretty close to dragging, and the stock pegs have been ground down pretty far.
.5 inches of pre-load is a little less than stock for this bike, although the front end is so soft that there's got to be an awful lot of rider sag with the stock suspension.
Nah I ment .5" on top of the stock spacer.
Stock, the bike already has a lot of pre-load. Personally, I'd install stiffer springs rather than upping the preload if you need more than stock,.
Quote from: burning1 on June 03, 2010, 12:49:44 AM
Stock, the bike already has a lot of pre-load. Personally, I'd install stiffer springs rather than upping the preload if you need more than stock,.
the next time I change the fork oil I intend to install .85 sonic springs, also I desparately need to get a better rear shock, I just need to figure out which one is a direct bolt in while still being better than stock. I would also like to raise the rear an inch or so.
katana 600 is a direct bolt on . . . im in the process of finding one and putting it on my bike
Katana 600 is a direct bolt on as mentioned. The Katana 750 also bolts on, but you'll have to shoe-horn it, or grind a little off the swingarm to make it fit. You can slip the remote reservoir under the seat, in front of the battery box. I have a 2001 Katana 750 shock.
Oh... The Yamaha R6 shock, 2006 on also bolts up. From what I've read, you'll need to use the Yamaha brushing, bolt, and nut on the lower linkage. Problem is, the R6 shock linkage is very different than the GS linkage, so the R6 shock will be way too soft. You'll also have to re-valve and re-spring it to make it work on the GS.
Strider,
I just noticed that you've removed the handlebar holder... I haven't. So your front end isn't nearly as high in the triples as I thought. In fact, without the holder, that looks like a pretty reasonable place to put your front end.
By the way... Why are you trying to slide back on the seat?
Sliding back may be necessary when you go into a race tuck, but generally I keep my body more forward from the back of the seat.
mighy want to look into sm2 bars
Why exactly are you concerned with being off the tank? Personally, I like having a lot of contact with the tank when I ride; I find it helps me loosen up on the bars, without losing that feeling of security and connectedness.
I prefer being in contact with the tank using my knees not my crotch. I feel like if I'm sitting to close to the tank my knees don't get good contact with the tank when hanging off the bike. In slower errr turns that use like lean angle (turn 1 and 2 at BIR) I will get up on the tank more. I don't like being to stretched out on the bike going flat out in 6th turning so I curl up behind the number plate close to the tank. Turn 2 at BIR is pretty bumpy still so light on the bike but still in good contact is more comforting HAHAHAHA. I could stand to have my rear shock rebuilt, but I'd rather spend the money on a UL bike next year. Maybe I should actually have it done. After the fronts were rebuilt I pretty much doubled my confidence and speed....... :icon_mrgreen:
Your crotch shouldn't be on the tank while cornering - you won't be able to move your body very far off the bike, and you won't be able to make good contact with the tank. You do have to shift up and down the seat while riding to be sure... E.g. to tuck properly, you have to move your ass backwards.
A mistake a lot of people make is that they try to keep the balls of both feet on the pegs. It's actually more ergonomic to move to the instep on the outside leg. Another mistake is trying to move back to the center of the seat between corners... It's not really necessary at a club racing level, never-mind at a track-day level.
Set-up early. Ass off the seat before braking. Get the upper body low and to the inside of the corner before turn-in.
I'm still working on my BP... Here are the best two examples from my most recent trackday...
http://www.gotbluemilk.com/web110512/s/imagepages/image18.html
http://www.gotbluemilk.com/web110512/s/imagepages/image29.html
BTW Strider... What shock are you running?
Ok so I need to get my butt off more as I suspected. I could acutally get everything off more I'd say. I posted a few pics here http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=54652.0 (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=54652.0), you may have seen them already.
I curently have a Fox shock. I don't know what condition it is in though. I had a local shop at the last race check my sag and he said everything was fine. No mention of if anything seemed out of wack. I'm not sure if its over sprung or not (previous owner was much heavier then I). The forks were a mess until I got them redone this year. Now they are great, well as great as GS forks can be that is. I'm affraid to take the rear shock of and send it in for a few reasons. I see Fox doesn't sell rebuild kits anymore firstly. Second I hope its not junk cause its a damn nice shock. I have a Works shock on my spare rolling chasis but god only knows whats the deal with that one. The Fox has much more adjustment on it so I'd rather use that. But if its junk when I send it in to get rebuilt I'm hosed.....
Give Catalyst Reactions a call. My guess is, they could probably service the shock even if a parts kit is not available. Worst case, they'll let you know it's not serviceable before charging you. FYI, I'm having good results with my R6 shock. If the Fox shock isn't an option, the R6 shock might be. You could even have it re-valved.
As far as whether or not the shock is toast... Sag will be fine, whether or not there is any damping. Perhaps, bring it in and confirm that it's still filled with nitrogen. Look for signs of leakage. As far as spring rates go... If static and dynamic sag are correct, then the spring is fine for you.
What I would suggest... Buy an old Contour HD 'Wide' camera... The one with the fish-eye lense. SD is fine, you don't really need the HD model, and the SD models are getting really inexpensive. Mount it to the tail. Get some video of your body position. Mount it to the bars, do the same from the front. When and how you move is every bit as important as where you end up when you move.
FWIW, your body position isn't bad. If I were you, I'd move the outside foot forward a little - it will put less stress on your knee and free up your outside leg and hips. I'd also try to drop the inside elbow a little, and keep the outside arm on the tank... But, again, I'm not seeing anything really wrong with your BP... I think the way you are moving may be causing your problems, and that's hard to diagnose from pictures.
With that said... I'm not a pro instructor, and I am still working on BP myself.
So you are suggesting to put the leading edge of the head pad thingy up against the peg on the out side foot correct? Like this
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/3_Max_Biaggi_2008_Aug_1.jpg)
I'm not entirely sure what you're asking... But yeah, I'm suggesting you use the outside foot position Biaggi is using in that picture.
Generally, I put my instep on the outside peg, and rest the heel against the heel guard. My goal is to create a relatively straight line between my knee and foot, so that I'm not twisting at the hip.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-UVtGJN7iilM/TeXZChcrL7I/AAAAAAAAA-Y/Rd55LdMNdCM/s640/DSC_1374.JPG)
That looks like a huge improvement. How does it feel?
BTW: One thing I've been experimenting with a lot recently is how far your butt needs to come off the seat when hanging off. What I'm learning is that ideally, your rear end should be placed so that the inside thigh of your outside leg is inline, touching, and connected to the contour of the tank. As you move your body forward and backward on the seat, the amount you need to move your butt off the seat to achieve that ideal connection to the bike will change. Something also to be aware of... If your too far back on the seat, you won't have much of your outside leg in contact with the bike. Too far forward, and you won't be able to get your but very far off the side of the bike. There is definitely a happy medium here.
In my experience... The feeling of connectedness is critical to making the motorcycle behave properly. The more connected you are to the bike using your lower body and core, the less you feel you need to hang on with your upper body. When well anchored, it's easier to drop your inside elbow, and relax on the bars. In doing so, you make the bike behave much better.
Dunno if you've ever ridden as a passenger, but one thing I noticed from it is how much instability we introduce from the front. The rear follows the front, but tends to feel dramatically more stable.