i see online when searching for newer gs500 brake calipers that some are tokico and others are ajp or atp (not sure what the insignia is). is there a difference between the two brands? i have an 89 and want to "update" my front brakes as the bike seems to still have the original front brake caliper. im looking to go to the f model years as obviously those are the latest and most updated style brake calipers.
has anyone been able to test/see differences in the two brands, or even noticed what years are associated with which caliper models?
i see calipers going for what seems to be a decent enough price. i already have what i believe is a 2005 master cylinder and stainless braided brake lines ready to throw on so im just figuring out the caliper bit.
they should be the same, although don't really see the point of the change just put on the braided lines and new pads, Id check the disk is not worn out and the orginal caliper not leaking, if not you will be right to go :cheers: :thumb:
The 1996+ models get the same basic design that the SV650 runs. It's a significant improvement over the stock caliper. Keep in mind; despite the fact that the caliper design is the same, there are differences between the rebuild kit. I found out the hard way that the rebuild kit for a current gen SV won't work on a 1996 caliper.
Are the fork mounts for the calliper the same from 89-96 (Can the later calliper fit the 89?)
Combo Jay.
Quote from: burning1 on July 07, 2010, 03:11:55 PM
The 1996+ models get the same basic design that the SV650 runs. It's a significant improvement over the stock caliper. Keep in mind; despite the fact that the caliper design is the same, there are differences between the rebuild kit. I found out the hard way that the rebuild kit for a current gen SV won't work on a 1996 caliper.
so, for all intents and purposes, should i look for an SV front caliper? what years should i be looking for?
Quote from: Lukewarm Wilson on July 07, 2010, 03:05:11 PM
they should be the same, although don't really see the point of the change just put on the braided lines and new pads, Id check the disk is not worn out and the orginal caliper not leaking, if not you will be right to go :cheers: :thumb:
i have the original offset piston caliper and i feel the braking could be improved. i will probably get a new rotor as well when i swap off the front brake setup.
Quote from: JAY W on July 07, 2010, 03:23:16 PM
Are the fork mounts for the calliper the same from 89-96 (Can the later calliper fit the 89?)
Combo Jay.
i do believe the brackets are the same. they definitely look similar, but i havent had a later model caliper to match up to see if the fork mounts fit the mounting points on the caliper
my thoughts are basically: if the brakes were changed through the years, theoretically it's for the better. so, since my model has "outdated" brakes, and newer brake styles will fit/work, why not swap to the new style if im already having to replace parts?
Yes. The Ron Ayers parts Fische is a good resource for this.
By the way... The previous gen Ninja 250 uses the same calipers we do.
If you're planning to keep the stock front end, I'd highly recommend installing a Galfer Waive rotor. It should last longer than the stock part, and will provide noticeably better braking performance.
I used to do 1 finger stoppies when I installed them on my old GSX-R 600.
You could install the SV 650 caliper (it's what I have on my bike.) The rotor bolts and banjo bolt are a straight fit. You might have a problem finding just the right caliper on ebay, however.
hm.. SV calipers might even be slightly cheaper (just did a quick google search) haha
burning: do you know which years should work for the SV 650 calipers? and will older model GS master cylinder be able to apply enough pressure?
Any year SV650 caliper should work, though it was revised in 2002, and the earlier calipers have been discontinued according to Ron Ayers.
The stock master cylinder works fine with these calipers, and the leverage ratio is almost identical to the old caliper. The major difference is that the current gen calipers won't flex as much, improving power and reducing mushyness.
yeah, most calipers i see online are post 02, hopefully theyll work. just gotta keep shoppin around.. dont have money to buy these parts yet anyways haha
as for the rotors, they are PRICEY!
maybe for now i'll just clean my current calipers and get new pads in. the rotor still seems good. we'll see how money flows this month
Again, Galfer waive rotors. You only need one, and I suspect you could find it for less than $300 new.
The problem with the GS is that it eats the stock rotors for lunch. Half a season in, I'm on my 3rd rotor; I chewed through the first one, and visibly warped the second one.
SS braid lines> GSXR-1000 radial MC (3/4" stroke) > fork brace > caliper
Forget the wave rotor, unless you can afford the pad wear.
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t196/84CrapJ7/DSC05314.jpg)
i ordered one of buddha's fork braces, and i got the braided lines to throw on from romulux. i dont really want to spend more money on a master cylinder as i have 2 working GS master cylinders (89 and i think my second is an 05.. i forget now)
i always get these crazy ideas then have to sit for a while due to finances. it's great though because i have time to realize i shouldnt be spending ANY money on anything i dont need to. i think im going to throw on the ss braided lines and test both my master cylinders to see which provides more pressure.
but i'll keep lookin out for a good deal on the calipers. =P
my current brakes dont work well enough for me. i two-finger the brakes because i tend to stay on the gas a bit just in case i need to launch myself around obstacles. so cal drivers suck and tend to cut into lanes, brake hard and fast, then accelerate off again. or wait until last minute to make their maneuvers. but currently no matter what i do i cant get enough pressure to brake safely without firmly gripping the lever.
question! how thick does the stock rotor come new and how thin should it be before changing it out? and while we're at it.. the pad thicknesses would be nice too xD
Pad thickness looks to start at about 3mm. I can measure later.
The rotors you can figure out yourself. The rotor surface is cut as a single piece. You wear down the parts that the pads contact, and you do not wear down the parts the pads don't rub. Measure the un-worn section, compare to the worn section, and compare that to the minimum thickness stamped on the rotor.
EBC FA 231 front pad inner is 8.4 mm thick, front pad outer is 8.5 mm thick, and FA63 rear pad is 9 mm thick. That would be total thickness including backing plate.
http://www.ebcbrakes.com/Assets/2010_US_MC_Catalog.pdf
89-95 GS FA129 front pads are 9.7 mm thick.
Quote from: pandymai on July 08, 2010, 09:24:00 AM
my current brakes dont work well enough for me.
Suit yourself.
The caliper you're looking for is only gonna squeeze with what the MC gives it. More pots = more fluid displacement.
More fluid over a greater area = less pressure. Meaning you gain extra brake lever travel.
Think about a pair of bolt cutters with REALLY big teeth, but short little handles. And, since you've got SS lines - firm grips instead of mushy foam.
OR, real world : I upgraded to a Katana front, with twin disks and 4 pots per caliper. Felt just like original GS brakes.
Then, I put on SS lines - better feel, but same distance.
Then, radial MC with 3/4" diameter stroke: 1~2 finger braking, and my first stoppie.
i understand the mechanics of it.
my issue is with the price of the gsxr MC.
just to think out loud
i have an 89 caliper which has 2 pistons but they are offset in size. the 05 caliper has 2 large same-sized pistons correct? so, theoretically, the 05 master cylinder should be able to provide more pressure on the 89 caliper?
so if i use my 05 master cylinder on the 89 caliper, with the ss braided lines, it should allow for less travel of the brake lever than my current 89 MC with 89 caliper right?
Dude... The front master cylinder hasn't changed significantly in the entire production run of the GS500E. New brakes or old brakes, the Fische specifies part 59600-45C10 for this bike. Changing to the newer MC is unlikely to get you anything.
I *might* be tempted to try a SV650 master cylinder, however.
Stainless brake lines, and a pair of mid-range stintered pads are all I need to lift the rear wheel. Most everything after that is about feel and consistency.
so even though the caliper changed in 96, the MC did not? does that mean the volumes of the pistons were the same, even though the design changed, so a stronger MC wasnt needed?
the part number for the 04+ master cylinder is different. does that matter? it's 59600-AOEAO
i know this all seems to go back and forth so i thank everyone for their contributions..
Different part #, different design, same internals.
It's not a BAD design. It works very well, as you point out. Most bikes use the same style.
However, radial MC's have better leverage on the piston than the cantilevered stock design. That gives a much firmer feel. You can apply more manual pressure. But, I wouldn't recommend it. Whole-hand braking with it is like ASKING to flip.
And the bore increase from 5/8" to 3/4" helps with lever travel and pressure the pads exert on the rotor.
I understand the financial concern.
Figured if words are tossed around like "wave rotor" and numbers like $300...
I picked mine up on Ebay for $80. You can probably get them cheaper. Especially if you can sell the two you have. Remote reservoir buckets are $5 for the plastic, little more for nice billet ones.
I mean, don't get irritated at me. I'm just trying to help.
Finances are a b!tch.
When mine are a little better, I'm putting the same MC on my Versys. It only has two-pot calipers like the GS, though one on each side. After SS lines.
I'll never switch to wave rotors, because I don't like locking the front wheel. Just the rear. :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: Homer on July 08, 2010, 01:39:33 PM
I mean, don't get irritated at me. I'm just trying to help.
Finances are a b!tch.
When mine are a little better, I'm putting the same MC on my Versys. It only has two-pot calipers like the GS, though one on each side. After SS lines.
I'll never switch to wave rotors, because I don't like locking the front wheel. Just the rear. :icon_mrgreen:
im not irritated at all! =D i find most of your posts extremely on-point and helpful or just plain enjoyable.
i have to get ready to pay for school come fall, and i am currently sitting at NO money left (horrible spending habits) so i want to work with what i have. was just taking a random gander at future prospective upgrades.
considering im keeping the front end rstock, it DOES seem that a different MC would be a better choice than the caliper itself if i were to have only one of them changed.
and true, i could sell the current MC once i get the new one working right.
but if i get the new MC, do they all (suzuki sportbikes) share the same size bolt for the banjo fitting on the master cylinder? will my brake line's banjo (made for the GS) work with the gsxr master cylinder?
also: would any gsxr MC work? which would be preferred?
Changing the MC would affect the way the brake feels. Changing the caliper will affect the way the brakes perform.
ok. that's understandable as well.
so.. wait a few months and get everything! haha xD
this makes me wonder if i should just piece together an entire front end or not >__<
I respect your cost/benefit analysis.
And, no, frustratingly, they don't all share the same banjo bolt. Same SIZE bolt, different thread count. Some fine, some coarse. Solution I found was to take advantage of my local CycleWorld's return policy and easily-distracted/underpaid staff.
It's just another hydraulic system providing mechanical leverage where linkages are undesirable. The pump (MC) upgrades your grip force, transmits it through the lines, and provides it to the calipers which transmit it into clamping force by way of friction. Better calipers provide more friction, but only to the degree of the force transmitted to them.
Whatcha gonna study? Big school, little school?
The calipers actually flex as the brakes are applied. As they flex, braking power is lost, and feel is compromised. The newer calipers are significantly stronger than the old calipers.
on the billion year plan at CSUF just trying to get a bachelor's. it's a vicious cycle: i go to school in hopes of a better paying job, so i work full time to pay for school, but then i can't school full-time because im working. (that and i still wouldnt be able to afford full time tuition on my current salary xD) so long term i pay more, but short term i pay less. living from paycheck to paycheck sucks xP
but at least im happy? haha
anyways. back to thinking out loud. since this has pretty much become a front end evaluation (at least in my mind) i feel like working with what i have/paying a minimal amount of additional money to optimize the current setup.
i am 5'8, 230 (yeah i know im huge)
once all the parts are together im going to redo my front-end to the following specs:
forks: (will be swapping out the fork oil seals soon)
currently > progressive springs, no spacer, stock fork oil and oil level
future > progressive springs, 1 inch spacer, 20w oil at the progressive-suggested (i think it's 140mm?)
brakes:
currently > 89 MC with 89 caliper and stock rotor
future > gsxr radial MC with SV caliper and stock rotor.
how's that sound? haha considering my height, weight, and crazy so cal riding conditions (for anyone in so cal, i drive the 405, 22, 55, and 91 all the time. also live primarily in westminster-Little Saigon area. anyone who's from around here knows damn well how crappy these areas are for driving, nevertheless riding) =P
seeing as how this is my first bike to play with and adjust, i like getting help from everyone on the site and appreciate it. especially since everyone here is familiar with the GS, it's a better comparison than when i ride the other bikes i have around me (09 zx6r, 09 gsxr750, 06 cbr600rr, 08 cbr1000rr)
i cant really compare the feel of those bikes to mine because, well, theyre completely different bikes. and i just dont have enough knowhow of what is "right" to know what's "wrong" with my bike.
end note: i really do love my bike.
Quote from: burning1 on July 08, 2010, 05:03:37 PM
The calipers actually flex as the brakes are applied. As they flex, braking power is lost, and feel is compromised. The newer calipers are significantly stronger than the old calipers.
That is correct. And we're awesome for not fighting. :woohoo:
Pandy, bro, I know you love this bike. Especially now that it's back on the road.
But, please, please save your money.
The more you spend on upgrading this thing, the further you get from something you WON'T NEED TO UPGRADE.
Edit:Oh, geez. I'm gonna get yelled at for sounding snooty, again, aren't I?
All I'm saying is : look how hard you're TRYING to afford upgrading this bike. Well, imagine if you tried just as hard to upgrade the entire thing. You are worth it, you know...
I have an 89 that I race. Stock caliper and disc but with braided line and ebc hh race pads. I have no problem bringing the back end up with one finger under the only hard braking corner we have at my local track. I think it all comes down to feel, and what you feel comfortable with. I don't know that you would feel a huge difference upgrading the parts. Try the braided line and upgraded pads with new fluid and see how that works for you before you spend money on a new caliper and or disc...just my 2 cents worth!
I know I probably shouldn't put too much into it. :) so since I have the lines I'll be doing those first. And the ebc hh pads are good? I don't know the rating system for brakes xD
Haha what a progression. Back to using everything I already have. Which is actually the better choice at the end of it all eh friends? Haha i'll try cleaning and lubing my calipers, new pads, new fluids, and the braided lines.
Thanks to all who allow people like me to think in circles haha
And homer, you won't get any lip from me. Some people just don't see things as happily as others. :P
fastedmiami,
Are you having any problems with abnormal wear? I've been going through brake parts like crazy on my 93.
If this freshershest-thread-ever gets spoiled by petty fighting, I'm gonna be so mad.
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t196/84CrapJ7/gPE89.gif)
question!
Homer stated he had the gsxr RADIAL master cylinder. what's the difference between a "radial" master cylinder and the stock master cylinders on our bikes? (and what type of master cylinder is ours considered to be?)
never knew there were different classifications of master cylinders so i'm just wondering
Cylinder and piston poke out from the handlebar, like spokes on a wheel. "Radially" mounted.
Instead of being parallel to the grip.
Radial calipers have the mounting bolts in the same fashion. The heads are at the top of the calipers, radial to the hub, pointing toward the tire like spokes.
They're stiffer that way. Like Burning mentioned.
And, yes, you can mix/match them.
so after taking some time, i will try the more obvious/necessary paths first.
i need a new front rotor, and new pads. can anyone point me in the direction of the caliper rebuild kit for the front caliper of an 89? i feel like if im changing things out i might as well clean up the caliper with new stuff too.
brake pads
brake rotor
possibly caliper rebuild kit?
and master cylinder rebuild kit?
anyone suggest where decent prices can be found for these parts? im local to southern california.