Sunday my wife and I were coming back from a visit with our grand kids in the cage and we started a game. We counted the folks on bikes with helmets and without (FL is a choice state). The finally tally after about 80 miles of counting was 132 without and 68 with. Only 6 full face on 3 sport bikes and one Goldwing. The rest were those half helmets with a few 3/4 helmets. One idiot on what looked like a Duce made me break fairly hard not to get very uncomfortably close to him head on as he was passing. Then his buds did the same to the car behind me. I'm all for personal liberties but if you can be stopped, cited and fined for not wearing a seat belt in a cage then how on earth can the politicians justify folks riding around without a bucket.
Because stopping you for not wearing your seat belt is a good excuse to find out what else you are doing wrong. (Alcohol, Drugs, Guns, No Insurance, Suspended License, etc.) Trying to stop a guy on a bike for not wearing a helmet will either get him to run and get away, run and crash, or 'typically' find out they aren't doing anything else wrong.
Seat belt laws are secondary in my state, meaning you can't be stopped for not wearing one, you can only be fined if pulled over for another violation. I believe it's like that in many states, which shows that the law only exists to generate more revenue for the state. Honestly, I think either law should be repealed, it should be a personal decision whether or not to protect yourself, but if you slap your kid in a car without a seatbelt, you should get your license suspended.
The nanny laws are generally written by the insurance lobbies. If a cager isn't wearing a seatbelt and gets in an accident, there are big medical expenses billed to his insurance. If a rider isn't wearing a helmet and gets in an accident, there's usually just the funeral costs.
All comes down to the numbers!
In Florida seatbelts are now a primary offense. The day it went into effect KPD was standing next to a sign announcing it as people went for their seat belts they were pulled over. One cop walked through three lanes of traffic to get one person while a minivan full of kids running around in it went right on by. :bs:
Mary
I still can't believe you saw 200 motorcycles in 80 miles.
Maybe they just saw the same 20 motorcycles 10 times over 80 miles :cheers:
Does anyone on this site ride their bike without a helmet. I dont understand why people want to ride without a helmet. I talked to a harley rider down the street from me, he just moved over to California where helmets are required, and he is from a state that doesnt make wearing a helmet mandatory. He always complains about wearing a helmet, he doesnt understand why i like wearing a helmet when i ride. I always tell him if i get in an accident and my face hits the asphalt, i know my face isnt going to win that fight. :cookoo:
Why ride without helmet = why have sex without clothes on.
You might suffer from a false sense of security.
Helmets are less comfortable than no helmets, usually. I use my 3/4 sometimes cause it has a visor. And it makes family happier, who know nothing whatsoever about anything mechanical.
I never take a bike down near the city where the crazinesss all is. I hate driving my car there. People wander off road and hit mailboxes and knee walls and parked cars regularly as I watch behind them and all around my neighborhood. Looks like a drunkfest just ended late last night. Fresh glass and plastic scattered about each week. Text messaging while dining in SUVs, running red lights without looking.
Where I ride you don't need a helmet.
If you get in an accident and do anything other than slide to a stop you are going to break your body. Body armor helps as do helmets, once you are crashing.
So, don't get in an accident and hit a tree. Don't do stoppies drunk. Don't drive 3.5 times the posted speed limit and have the old lady in the 1991 Buick look your way, see nothing, look the other way and pull out... Know where the other drivers are and what they are doing (in my case 90 miles away).
I like the feeling a good fitting/ secure helmet. Ive ridden around my appt complex w/o one when i need to "test" something and it just feels weird. Im the same about driving, i like having a seatbelt on and dont feel comfortable w/o one.
Quote from: 007brendan on September 21, 2010, 11:00:13 PM
I still can't believe you saw 200 motorcycles in 80 miles.
The remnants of people coming home from Peterson's Harley Davidson's Poker run.
I'll sum it up like I normally do. If I get in an accident, no matter who's fault it is, and get messed up, they'll say one of two things. If I'm wearing my gear they'll say, poor guy did everything he could to protect himself, if I'm not wearing my gear they'll say, dumbass was asking for it and never stood a chance. Same with wearing a seatbelt in a cage. Plus if you start off with at least gloves and a helmet like I am with my wife and son, you'll never know any different, and will feel weird without them.
Quote from: johnny ro on September 22, 2010, 04:08:51 AM
Why ride without helmet = why have sex without clothes on.
having sex without clothes is like riding a bike in tennis shoes and a t shirt, riding without a helmet is more like having sex without a condom, which is a pretty big difference.
Riding without a helmet is a tough price to pay for trying to look good. I can see it happening if you only ever get up to 15mph when you're riding, but any faster than that and it's just really not all that enjoyable. When I see someone on a bike who doesn't have a helmet on, all I really assume is that they don't actually ride the bike. Whether or not your grand plan is just not crashing, you still have no way to predict when that giant beetle is going to smack you right in the center of the forehead.
You can't legislate intelligence, or, in the words of another great man, "you can't fix stupid".
If you believe in seat belt and helmet laws, they you also have to be in favor of:
1. Prohibition of alcohol and smoking
2. Bacon rationing (fat people can't buy bacon).
3. Candy and soda taxes.
I feel weird riding from the gas station pump to the air filler without gloves on.
I've had bugs in the eyes and bees stuck in my hair riding helmetless on dirtbikes. I've had large bugs smack into my sunnies and ooze their guts around the edge into my eye riding on the highway without a visor.
Now... I wear gloves All the time, full face all the time.
You?
If you wanna ride without a lid, that's a risk you're willing to take, along with the consequences of what might happen regarding flying things and unexpected offs. Coercion by way of fine brought in with legislation, is usually done to make more $ for the govt as they have another victimless crime to get you for - and - reduce the payouts insurance companies would need to make so they make more profit.
Michael
Quote from: tt_four on September 22, 2010, 10:28:44 AM
Quote from: johnny ro on September 22, 2010, 04:08:51 AM
Why ride without helmet = why have sex without clothes on.
Riding without a helmet is a tough price to pay for trying to look good
Dude, I look way better with my helmet on.
I'll admit, I've done both - with and without a helmet. If i go without a helmet anymore it's around the block on a little "test ride".
One of the guys i work with has a Harley and was bragging about how he only puts a lid on to keep his wife happy but rides all the time without it on. I asked him "Dont you have anything under that helmet worth protecting?"
In PA, it's optional to wear a helmet after 2 years, but it's mandatory to wear a seat belt in a car. Doesnt make sense to me either......
I'm no advocate for more government control but if seatbelt laws can be a primary offence how are helmets different. I like the analogy that without a helmet you stand a much better chance of being just plain ole dead than having to have medical treatment. A insurance guys best case scenario, dead don't pay and negligence can be argued even when primary fault lies in the cage that hit helmetless Joe. It's quite easy to get a percentage of blame off the insureds back in what could have been a survivable accident had the dead/maimed person been wearing a helmet.
I have many stories over the years of friends, acquittance's and just stories in the paper that were killed or saved by helmets. Most recent, a Miami Heat dancer killed without a bucket on by a idiot in a Benz. It was a under the speed limit collision in a busy part of town. She would have limped away with a bucket on, now this smokin babe is worm food. It was her choice but the woman that hit her shouldn't be deionized, fault lies on both sides of the fender. Another friend splattered himself on a wall at a buck twenty, nothing would have saved him but he was wearing a Shoi. Road rash heals, broken bones hurt when the weather changes, dead is a long cold nap that there is no repeal from and it can happen just as easy at 15 mph as it can at 75.
It's a choice we all have to make but I'll not ride my bike anywhere without a quality helmet on and I'll replace it every 2 years. It's the reason I have a GS, I repossessed it from one of my sons because he refused to wear his helmet. That was part of the hand shake when we bought it, he must wear his gear everytime he got on the bike. He didn't, I gave him ample chances, after about 20 warnings and a new motor I took it back. Now if he wants a bike he can get one himself, the same deal applies to my other sons and they are all wearing their gear. Nothing like a example and having your name on the title to make the others fall in line.
Quote from: Twism86 on September 22, 2010, 06:04:02 AM
I like the feeling a good fitting/ secure helmet. Ive ridden around my appt complex w/o one when i need to "test" something and it just feels weird. Im the same about driving, i like having a seatbelt on and dont feel comfortable w/o one.
In my opinion, your parent(s) raised you correctly. Same goes for me: if I'm going to the store in a car, I wear a seat belt. If I'm riding around the block, I wear a helmet
Quote from: lilwoody on September 22, 2010, 01:45:42 PM
Road rash heals, broken bones hurt when the weather changes, dead is a long cold nap that there is no repeal from and it can happen just as easy at 15 mph as it can at 75.
So true.
I'm a new rider. Well, I rode a dirt bike in high school, but I'm 53 now so as good as a new rider. I never ride - and have never ridden without my full coverage helmet, gloves and jacket.
I've had large bugs hit my face shield at 60mph. I can't imagine what that would have done to my face or my concentration and ability to control the bike.
Still, I think it's a personal choice.
Quote from: lilwoody on September 22, 2010, 01:45:42 PM
I'm no advocate for more government control but if seatbelt laws can be a primary offence how are helmets different....
And there's the "slippery slope" in action. Some level of government control is accepted, so what's the harm in just a little more?? Eventually anything the majority perceives as "too dangerous" will get banned. Like maybe riding a bike at all?
Really, it astonishes me that anybody who rides would use this line of reasoning, proceeding logically down that path leads you to banning motorcycles. It seems to me that the correct response would be to say, "I can ride a motorcycle without a helmet, why isn't it legal to not wear a seatbelt?"
Regulate yourself or be regulated. You have a choice.
Alright, I'll be "that guy." I don't wear a helmet a lot. I've been whacked in face with bugs and crap.. and even bled from it. (Rain is the worst.) I've crashed a GSXR 1000 without a helmet on. I slid across a ten lane intersection on top of the bike. (Minor forearm road rash through my long sleeve shirt.) A lot of crashing is knowing how to crash. I knew I didn't have a helmet on so I kept my head up. Whatever I am riding, I ride a lot more aggressive with a helmet on. And, by that logic, I am MORE likely to get hurt even with the helmet. Any time I crashed my ATV I was wearing my helmet. I never crashed it when I didn't wear my helmet. The worst I've ever been hurt in a motorcycle crash was on a 50cc pocket bike at 20mph when the front wheel came off. I did a "front flip" over the handle bars and landed on my shoulder blade, elbow, hip, thigh, and knee. no helmet, kept my head up. Wicked road rash all down one side of my body. I use my "helmet instinct" to decided if I want to wear it or not. The days I have my helmet instinct, and put it on, weird stuff happens.. like I'll ride through a dust devil or small rain storm. Helmet's nice for things like that. I like the feel of the open air on my face and in my hair. I don't care how I look or what people think of me. I've also been having unprotected sex with my wife for over 7 years. Our one child was planned.
Let the flaming begin.
Since you have children and a wife I have 2 words for you......Life insurance, about a years gross salary for your house hold.
Quote from: Elijafir on September 22, 2010, 04:03:02 PM
Let the flaming begin.
You could wear a modular helmet?
Quote from: tt_four on September 22, 2010, 10:28:44 AM
riding without a helmet is more like having sex without a condom, which is a pretty big difference.
Not sure whose side of the argument that supports. A huge benefit to monogamous relationships is being able to have sex without a condom :P
Back on topic though... I always wear a helmet (and big goofy jacket... and usually pants) and probably always will. I may argue against somebody who chooses not to wear a helmet, but I'll never argue against their choice. Really, when it comes down to "I enjoy the ride better without it" that's pretty much the end of discussion. I may think it's an unsafe choice for you to ride without a helmet, but there are plenty of folks who think it's an unsafe choice for us to get on the bike at all.
We take on enough risk as it is, there's no sense getting up in arms over that next little bit.
Quote from: yurtinus on September 22, 2010, 08:19:55 PM
We take on enough risk as it is, there's no sense getting up in arms over that next little bit.
Thank You.
I am glad I live in Australia where it is compulsory to wear a helmet. Sure you can ride around on your bike in speedos, but as long as you are wearing a helmet you are legal. But would you wanna?
Even in you live in a place where it is a choice why risk it? Would you use an angle grinder on a bit of steel without eye/ear protection? Would you weld without the mask? It seems pretty logical to me.
The angle grinder and welding analogies aren't that accurate. Nobody finds angle grinding more enjoyable without eye protection. Plenty of people find motorcycling more enjoyable without a helmet, though.
Keep in mind I wear a full face every time I'm on my bike. If any of my friends rode without helmets, I'd have plenty to say to try to convince them otherwise, but ultimately I will still respect their choice and *defend* their ability to choose. Riding with a helmet is simply safer - I don't think anybody will argue that. However, riding without one isn't automatically unsafe. My point here is that it isn't right to assume everybody needs to share my risk/reward threshold.
Quote from: yurtinus on September 22, 2010, 11:14:13 PM
The angle grinder and welding analogies aren't that accurate. Nobody finds angle grinding more enjoyable without eye protection. Plenty of people find motorcycling more enjoyable without a helmet, though.
Keep in mind I wear a full face every time I'm on my bike. If any of my friends rode without helmets, I'd have plenty to say to try to convince them otherwise, but ultimately I will still respect their choice and *defend* their ability to choose. Riding with a helmet is simply safer - I don't think anybody will argue that. However, riding without one isn't automatically unsafe. My point here is that it isn't right to assume everybody needs to share my risk/reward threshold.
But serious head trauma is more enjoyable? :dunno_black:
My point was along your lines of it being safer. It is more about the logic of reducing the risk of injury incase you do find your self in the situation of skidding down the road on your melon.
Consider this. In college I had a Honda 250 scooter (technically registered as a motorcycle). During the summer, I would work down at the small beach towns and use the scooter to putter around, mostly because parking would have been impossible otherwise. Around town, I didn't wear a helmet all that often. It would have been hot, stinky, sandy, wet, and uncomfortable, I wouldn't have had one for my passenger anyway, and if I did, it would have gotten stolen.
Remember back when no one used to wear a helmet when bicycling, or skiing, or snowboarding, or any other sport where helmets are fairly commonplace today? Did we all die because we didn't wear helmets? No, not at all. We used common sense.
That being said, I wear ATTGATT now, but that's mostly because I ride the freeway every day and I live in California where people drive like maniacs. But if I'm back at the beach in DE, it may be a different story.
Haha.. I ride without a helmet.. have sex without a condom.. I have used angle grinders without eye protection (without the shield on it, too.) and I've done oxy/acetylene welding with nothing but sun glasses / shorts / t-shirt. My Body, My choice, and you know what, I'm no worse for the wear from it all. I'm sure I am the exception, and not the rule. Don't be like me, kiddo's. You could get HURT or DEAD! zOMG. :cheers:
If the center of the steering wheel had a great big bloody spike on it instead of an airbag, would people drive differently?
Nothing to do with helmets, just throwing it out there.
Michael
Quote from: mister on September 23, 2010, 02:31:53 AM
If the center of the steering wheel had a great big bloody spike on it instead of an airbag, would people drive differently?
Nothing to do with helmets, just throwing it out there.
Michael
LOL...........
I use to have a VW microbus.....you sat in the front, with just one layer of thin sheet metal between you and the outside world....People drove very carefully in these!
I often thought we should take it one step further and mount the dirver's seat completely outside the vehicle, on the front bumper!!!
Cookie
Hey, I'm all for this freedom of choice concept. If you don't want to wear a helmet...go for it. Freedom let's one be incredibly stupid if he wants to be.
But with freedom comes responsibility too..........
When a helmetless bike rider gets creamed in an accident... It takes some of MY tax money to "rescue" him, and it raises MY insurance rates too........
I guess you could use the same arguement for motorcycles in general.....that they are by nature very dangerous, helmet or not..........
But I think the helmet does offer some level of protection, with almost no down side....
Cookie
I'm a pretty confirmed libertarian and I have a huge problem with seat belt laws, helmet laws and the like.
But I always wear my seat belt when driving or riding in a car and always wear a helmet when riding.
Just because an activity is dangerous - or even stupidly dangerous with crazy odds for self injury - does not mean it should be illegal. Just don't endanger anyone else and I have no problem with it.
In addition to riding a bike, I also hunt and go on wilderness backpacking and canoe trips. These activities are dangerous - in a different way, but dangerous none the less when you don't have a cell phone to call 911 and you're portaging 100lbs of gear over a slippery bolder field. Take the risk. Take the consequences. Then don't whine about it when the odds beat you.
I also fear the slippery slope. There are lots of State Empowered Nannies that would love to take away our right to do just about anything fun or remotely dangerous - whether it be owning a firearm for self defense, riding a motorcycle or eating a freakin' cheeseburger. And they do their nanny business one little incremental step at a time. I despise them.
Choice --- Responsibility. There is no other way and maintain our rights as adult citizens.
You guys that don't wear a helmet. I utterly respect your choice and right to do so. It's not for me though. And I hope that you have the "Organ Donor" check box filled in on your license.
http://www.alivetoride.com/motorcycle_riding_tips_reaction_time
I give up. Everyone should be required to wear a helmet. I don't mean while riding. Motorcycles should be illegal. In fact, all personal transportation should be illegal. (Just look at that link I posted!!!) You should be required to wear a helmet as part of your every day life. Have you seen the statistics for how many people fall and die in the shower at home? While we're at it... Guns, Knives, Power Tools, Heavy Equipment, and basically anything that could be consider "dangerous" in the work place should be STRONGLY REGULATED and ONLY used under TIGHT GOVERNMENT SUPERVISION. Don't even get me started on Sugar, Caffeine, Aspirin, Pesticides, and the other countless man made, highly processed chemicals that are slowly killing us from the inside out. We also better give up electricity and natural gas/propane.. it's far too dangerous of a thing to have in our homes. Have a swimming pool? That's going to have to go, too. Have you seen the statistics of how many little children drown in those things? Sex should definitely be illegal. Reproduction should be highly controlled and only happen by Artificial Insemination. It would only take a generation or two to get rid of ALL STD's if people didn't have sex anymore! And think of how great our planet would be if only intelligent, educated, responsible people were allowed to breed!!
I could go on ALL day. Hire the safety experts. Increase the 'special police' forces. Install Cameras in every room in every home and every street corner. I can't wait to have a nice safe, responsible life free from the burden of choice. Sign me up!
you forgot about pencils and pens...and butter knifes too. oh the horror! we should live in bubbles maybe, yeeeeees bubbles. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Where do I sign?
There is obviously got to be some middle ground here.....between personal freedom, and regualtion for your own good an the good of otheres...and overregulation.......just hard to figure where the middle is sometimes.
Here' s an extreme scenario.......
You choose whether to wear a helmet or not........
Ambulance squad decides whether or not to pick your sorry ass up off the road after an accident or not...
Hospital decides whether they want to admit you or not......
Doctor decides whether he wants to operate on you or not........
Insurace company decides whether they feel like paying or not....
Cookie
Quote from: GI_JO_NATHAN on September 22, 2010, 08:41:42 AM
I'll sum it up like I normally do. If I get in an accident, no matter who's fault it is, and get messed up, they'll say one of two things. If I'm wearing my gear they'll say, poor guy did everything he could to protect himself, if I'm not wearing my gear they'll say, dumbass was asking for it and never stood a chance. Same with wearing a seatbelt in a cage. Plus if you start off with at least gloves and a helmet like I am with my wife and son, you'll never know any different, and will feel weird without them.
This is true.
Quote from: twocool on September 23, 2010, 04:37:47 PM
There is obviously got to be some middle ground here.....between personal freedom, and regualtion for your own good an the good of otheres...and overregulation.......just hard to figure where the middle is sometimes.
Here' s an extreme scenario.......
You choose whether to wear a helmet or not........
Ambulance squad decides whether or not to pick your sorry ass up off the road after an accident or not...
Hospital decides whether they want to admit you or not......
Doctor decides whether he wants to operate on you or not........
Insurace company decides whether they feel like paying or not....
Cookie
I think you're enforcing the point right there. The fact that ambulances, hospitals, doctors, and insurance companies have had their freedom of choice legislatively removed has led to an imbalance in the decision making of motorcycle riders.
The logical choice for an insurance company would be to charge substantially more for people who don't wear helmets, or refuse to insure them at all, but law prohibits that.
Ambulances, hospitals, and doctors would only treat those who they reasonably thought would be able to pay them back, but law also prohibits that.
Government regulation actually removes many disincentives that would otherwise exist when not wearing a helmet (e.g. higher insurance costs, higher medical costs).
Quote from: tt_four on September 22, 2010, 10:28:44 AM
Quote from: johnny ro on September 22, 2010, 04:08:51 AM
Why ride without helmet = why have sex without clothes on.
having sex without clothes is like riding a bike in tennis shoes and a t shirt, riding without a helmet is more like having sex without a condom, which is a pretty big difference.
Riding without a helmet is a tough price to pay for trying to look good. I can see it happening if you only ever get up to 15mph when you're riding, but any faster than that and it's just really not all that enjoyable. When I see someone on a bike who doesn't have a helmet on, all I really assume is that they don't actually ride the bike. Whether or not your grand plan is just not crashing, you still have no way to predict when that giant beetle is going to smack you right in the center of the forehead.
Depends on who you are having sex with.
I don't care how I look when I ride. Witnesses can confirm that if you can find any. I ride for myself not for others.
I hit a seagull on the Long Island Expressway in heavy traffic at 70 mph with helmet. I flinched and it hit my shoulder. Hurt.
I hit another in my car and it bounced up and away and broke a wiper arm. Freaky stuff. I might not have spotted a giant beetle in time. I do wear large non-glass shades. They would cave with a mutant gull. I moved off of LI.
Took a bee last saturday between skin and coat on the neck last saturday, was wearing helmet. Stung, didn't stop, reached in and pulled it out.
I grind without glasses but I stand to side. Maybe 10 minutes a year. I don't count grinding plastic.
I draw the line at welding naked with or without sunglasses. Or painting houses with a ladder repaired with furring strips and drywall screws.
Quote from: 007brendan on September 23, 2010, 06:27:16 PM
Quote from: twocool on September 23, 2010, 04:37:47 PM
There is obviously got to be some middle ground here.....between personal freedom, and regualtion for your own good an the good of otheres...and overregulation.......just hard to figure where the middle is sometimes.
Here' s an extreme scenario.......
You choose whether to wear a helmet or not........
Ambulance squad decides whether or not to pick your sorry ass up off the road after an accident or not...
Hospital decides whether they want to admit you or not......
Doctor decides whether he wants to operate on you or not........
Insurace company decides whether they feel like paying or not....
Cookie
I think you're enforcing the point right there. The fact that ambulances, hospitals, doctors, and insurance companies have had their freedom of choice legislatively removed has led to an imbalance in the decision making of motorcycle riders.
The logical choice for an insurance company would be to charge substantially more for people who don't wear helmets, or refuse to insure them at all, but law prohibits that.
Ambulances, hospitals, and doctors would only treat those who they reasonably thought would be able to pay them back, but law also prohibits that.
Government regulation actually removes many disincentives that would otherwise exist when not wearing a helmet (e.g. higher insurance costs, higher medical costs).
I dunno. Kind of like saying the death penalty inhibits family murders and if reduced to life in prison encourages them. It seems not to in either case.
Quote from: johnny ro on September 23, 2010, 06:31:39 PM
I dunno. Kind of like saying the death penalty inhibits family murders and if reduced to life in prison encourages them. It seems not to in either case.
I never said it encouraged it, just that it removed the disincentives, namely lack of medical care. Your analogy is only removing a small disincentive. A more accurate analogy would be reducing a death penalty to a few years in jail, or removing jail time altogether. Though, I don't think it's a really good analogy, since I believe most people that would commit murder would do so regardless of the consequences.
Quote from: 007brendan on September 23, 2010, 06:27:16 PM
Quote from: twocool on September 23, 2010, 04:37:47 PM
There is obviously got to be some middle ground here.....between personal freedom, and regualtion for your own good an the good of otheres...and overregulation.......just hard to figure where the middle is sometimes.
Here' s an extreme scenario.......
You choose whether to wear a helmet or not........
Ambulance squad decides whether or not to pick your sorry ass up off the road after an accident or not...
Hospital decides whether they want to admit you or not......
Doctor decides whether he wants to operate on you or not........
Insurace company decides whether they feel like paying or not....
Cookie
I think you're enforcing the point right there. The fact that ambulances, hospitals, doctors, and insurance companies have had their freedom of choice legislatively removed has led to an imbalance in the decision making of motorcycle riders.
The logical choice for an insurance company would be to charge substantially more for people who don't wear helmets, or refuse to insure them at all, but law prohibits that.
Ambulances, hospitals, and doctors would only treat those who they reasonably thought would be able to pay them back, but law also prohibits that.
Government regulation actually removes many disincentives that would otherwise exist when not wearing a helmet (e.g. higher insurance costs, higher medical costs).
I think I understand what you mean.........
But my point is to find that middle of the road position...........
I'm for small government and as little regulation as possible.......
You have to take everything case by case.......
Seatbelts for instance.........
One of my first cars was a Triumph......I took one look at that little car and put in seat belts and roll bar.......figured at least I had a fighting chance in an accident........seatblets were not required then....but I got used to them and like the feeling of being "part of the car"......later began flying planes where seatbelts and sholder harness are REQUIRED.
Again got to like the feel............so I have no problem with seatbelts, and the government mandating them.
Any rational person will look at the auto accident statistics and see the difference seatbelts make..........yet some still come to the conclusion that they don't want to wear seatbelts!
So now there is a public outcry to the polititions, "You have to do something about highway safety!!!""
So what do the polititions do? Make laws........mandate safety regualtions......maybe go overboard....but what do you expect them to do??
Cookie
I expect them to not cave in to mob rule just to show they're doing "something" about high profile issues that may or may not even be problems. MORE IMPORTANTLY I expect them to hold up civil liberties over lobbyist profits. I have high expectations, I know :D
I do take issue with the "it's the insurance companies choice to cover your bills" analogy though. That coverage is something I've already contracted and paid for, so sure they have the choice, but it's between covering the bills and breach of contract (something frowned upon more in legal circles than riding without a helmet). Insurance companies want riders to wear helmets? Increase premiums for those riders who don't. Offer plans (at whatever statistically calculated higher price) for those riders who choose to take the extra risk. Choices very rarely need to be legislated.
I'm going to cut myself off, since this is a motorcycle forum and not a politics forum, and because I think Milton Friedman already said this better than anyone:
Jump to 3:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPqdRqacpFk
Motorcycles are just too dangerous, we should all be forced to ride the bus.
Just kidding, I like to cook bacon naked on metal heated with an angle grinder with no eye protection. If this gets outlawed take me to jail, and I'll eat bacon for free on your tax dollars.
I wear a half helmet when I ride into work, 45 miles uphill both ways... Usually wearing shorts.
When out riding for fun I wear a helmet about 50% of the time. Only reason its jumped to 50% is because of the crappy roads and all the gravel thats kicked up....Oh, and the bugs at night. I always wear gloves and an armored jacket, but the helmet is optional.
Quote from: Asym on September 23, 2010, 09:11:32 PM
45 miles uphill both ways... Usually wearing shorts.
Unless that's in the snow, COLOR ME UNIMPRESSED! ;)
QuoteSo now there is a public outcry to the polititions, "You have to do something about highway safety!!!""
So what do the polititions do? Make laws........mandate safety regualtions......maybe go overboard....but what do you expect them to do??
So now there is Outcry Published By The Media. Media Generated Outcry.
Pollies react.
WHO decided the media should publish this outcry in the first place?
Let's face it. In any city you can find hundreds of people to have outcry over anything. Pick a topic and you'll find people to have outcry. So... WHO decides what the outcry of the moment will be?
Something to think about.
Michael
Quote from: yurtinus on September 23, 2010, 08:26:30 PM
I expect them to not cave in to mob rule just to show they're doing "something" about high profile issues that may or may not even be problems. MORE IMPORTANTLY I expect them to hold up civil liberties over lobbyist profits. I have high expectations, I know :D
I do take issue with the "it's the insurance companies choice to cover your bills" analogy though. That coverage is something I've already contracted and paid for, so sure they have the choice, but it's between covering the bills and breach of contract (something frowned upon more in legal circles than riding without a helmet). Insurance companies want riders to wear helmets? Increase premiums for those riders who don't. Offer plans (at whatever statistically calculated higher price) for those riders who choose to take the extra risk. Choices very rarely need to be legislated.
But a contract has TWO sides.......it is reasonable for the insurance comapany to expect that you wear a helmet.
They could write it into the contract if they wanted.......often, if you are in viloation of the law, the insurance dosen't have to pay.
Cookie
Quote from: mister on September 24, 2010, 02:31:02 AM
QuoteSo now there is a public outcry to the polititions, "You have to do something about highway safety!!!""
So what do the polititions do? Make laws........mandate safety regualtions......maybe go overboard....but what do you expect them to do??
So now there is Outcry Published By The Media. Media Generated Outcry.
Pollies react.
WHO decided the media should publish this outcry in the first place?
Let's face it. In any city you can find hundreds of people to have outcry over anything. Pick a topic and you'll find people to have outcry. So... WHO decides what the outcry of the moment will be?
Something to think about.
Michael
Problem noted.........so what's the solution???
Cookie
When I smoked I paid a higher life insurance premium. As I put my sons on my car insurance my car insurance went up. After hurricane Andrew destroyed my home my home owners insurance went up. Insurance is a calculated risk, if you live in a area likely to get hurricanes your home owners insurance will be higher than someone in Kansas. If you have teens that drive expect to pay more for car insurance but your neighbor without kids shouldn't pay more. If you smoke cough up more for life insurance. Same goes for riding sans a lid, it's a risky behavior and folks who wear them shouldn't be used to subsidize those who don't. Legislation would be moot if the insurance rates were based on who wears helmets and who doesn't. It would be a simple box to check, helmet, no helmet. Florida does require you carry 20k in personal injury insurance if you go without a helmet but those rates don't ask the question. So the rate on my policy is based on risks for all people who ride. It's not broken down into categories of sans, dons.
And to those of you who are bullet proof, you're not. I could really care less, who wears and who doesn't, it's a very good idea to and if I'm finning the bill I'll demand it. I'm just amazed at the amount of people who don't believe it could happen to them. Some of you may well have started to see friends and acquittance's starting to be weeded out through risky behaviors, if not you will. It's not for anyone other than yourself to decide if a little inconvenience is worth the difference between being around or being a sticker on the back window of your best friends truck. Excuse but it's the father in me talking and it's the man who has many aches and pains from doing thing that were plenty fun at the time and didn't hurt much at all....then. It's also the man who has seen quite a few people buried because they didn't take proper caution to situations they put themselves in.
Quote from: lilwoody on September 24, 2010, 09:03:34 AM
When I smoked I paid a higher life insurance premium. As I put my sons on my car insurance my car insurance went up. After hurricane Andrew destroyed my home my home owners insurance went up. Insurance is a calculated risk, if you live in a area likely to get hurricanes your home owners insurance will be higher than someone in Kansas. If you have teens that drive expect to pay more for car insurance but your neighbor without kids shouldn't pay more. If you smoke cough up more for life insurance. Same goes for riding sans a lid, it's a risky behavior and folks who wear them shouldn't be used to subsidize those who don't. Legislation would be moot if the insurance rates were based on who wears helmets and who doesn't. It would be a simple box to check, helmet, no helmet. Florida does require you carry 20k in personal injury insurance if you go without a helmet but those rates don't ask the question. So the rate on my policy is based on risks for all people who ride. It's not broken down into categories of sans, dons.
And to those of you who are bullet proof, you're not. I could really care less, who wears and who doesn't, it's a very good idea to and if I'm finning the bill I'll demand it. I'm just amazed at the amount of people who don't believe it could happen to them. Some of you may well have started to see friends and acquittance's starting to be weeded out through risky behaviors, if not you will. It's not for anyone other than yourself to decide if a little inconvenience is worth the difference between being around or being a sticker on the back window of your best friends truck. Excuse but it's the father in me talking and it's the man who has many aches and pains from doing thing that were plenty fun at the time and didn't hurt much at all....then. It's also the man who has seen quite a few people buried because they didn't take proper caution to situations they put themselves in.
The best post so far in this thread. Sounds like a word from the wise. Ride safe :thumb:
Quote from: twocool on September 24, 2010, 03:13:43 AM
But a contract has TWO sides.......it is reasonable for the insurance comapany to expect that you wear a helmet.
They could write it into the contract if they wanted.......often, if you are in viloation of the law, the insurance dosen't have to pay.
Yes - the contract does have two sides. If the state law says you must wear a helmet then I wouldn't expect the insurance companies to mention it. The discussion though is whether or not states have the right to demand you wear helmets. I say an emphatic "no." Not because I want to ride without a helmet (I wear a full face and jacket all the time) - but because it should be up to me how much risk I take. You can't let the state incrementally criminalize every potentially risky behavior or you'll start seeing them cut into things you enjoy. Helmets are safer. Mandate them. Cages are safer. Mandate them. Sure, that example is a stretch, but as they say - the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Quote from: lilwoody on September 24, 2010, 09:03:34 AM
...will be higher than someone in Kansas.
I think theirs have been up ever since the Wizard of Oz came out anyway.
Quote from: tt_four on September 27, 2010, 07:02:50 AM
Quote from: lilwoody on September 24, 2010, 09:03:34 AM
...will be higher than someone in Kansas.
I think theirs have been up ever since the Wizard of Oz came out anyway.
Damn tornadoes...
I have a hard time getting into the helmet debate because I always get stuck trying to figure out how people even enjoy riding without a helmet. I know it's a hassle to put one on and take it off all the time if you're running from one place to another and then figuring out what to do with it once you get there, but still. At least an mx helmet or something like that. My head has to feel like it's sufficiently wrapped up before I'm willing to do anything fun on the bike. When I see someone not wearing a helmet, I can only assume they don't actually know how to ride the bike they have.
Aside from that, I don't much care about the law, but I do with the consequences of not wearing one were distributed properly. Adjust the insurance rates, and be sure that priority is given to the guy wearing a helmet any time 1 ambulance shows up and there may be 2 people, or two people get to a hospital and there's only one surgeon ready. Unfortunately, in the real world, hospitals are going to may more attention to the person who's in worse condition, and in this case it means the guy with the helmet would probably be hooked to up an IV and told he needs to wait until they can get the helmetless wonder in stable condition.
It's nothing more than that south park episode where the guys on Harleys rode around making more and more noise thinking everyone thought they sounded awesome, when everyone else was just irritated. The majority of people around my town without helmet just figure there's no point in riding a motorcycle if the girls can't see your face to know it's you. Meanwhile everyone on the outside just looks at them and thinks there's something wrong with them.
Quote from: tt_four on September 27, 2010, 10:03:54 AM...and be sure that priority is given to the guy wearing a helmet any time 1 ambulance shows up and there may be 2 people, or two people get to a hospital and there's only one surgeon ready. Unfortunately, in the real world, hospitals are going to may more attention to the person who's in worse condition, and in this case it means the guy with the helmet would probably be hooked to up an IV and told he needs to wait until they can get the helmetless wonder in stable condition.
Yeah that would never happen. Fortunately they normally don't make it that far, being DOA and all..
I'll sum up my agitation with the "gear nazis", for helmets or otherwise.
Early yesterday morning, I stopped at the grocery store on the way to meet some friends for a trip to go wine tasting (I wasn't taking the motorcycle wine tasting). I consciously chose not to wear my motorcycle boots. I'm zipping through the store to get the few items I need, and I briefly pass the Starbucks counter inside the grocery store. A man -- one of the narcissistic, self-described intellectual, yuppie-hippies that plagues every square inch of Marin -- barks at me, "what, you don't own motorcycle boots?" I respond that I do own them, but I'm just not wearing them right now. He continues to scoff at me and proceeds to tell the group of old women around him some apocryphal story about a rider that didn't wear boots and had his feet crushed or something like that, and how boots are a necessity for riding.
Now, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but the thing that gets me, is that in NO OTHER situation do people even think twice about making comments about someone elses decisions concerning their own safety. I could have responded, "You know that hybrid you're driving? You're 3 times as likely to die in an accident than I am in my truck. You're clearly irresponsible." But I didn't, and no one would even think about making those types of comments.
Even beyond opinions, I feel the gear nazis have adopted a condescending tone, as if their decisions are clearly on the moral and intellectual high ground, and anyone who disagrees with them are just irresponsible fools. Case in point:
QuoteIt's nothing more than that south park episode where the guys on Harleys rode around making more and more noise thinking everyone thought they sounded awesome, when everyone else was just irritated. The majority of people around my town without helmet just figure there's no point in riding a motorcycle if the girls can't see your face to know it's you. Meanwhile everyone on the outside just looks at them and thinks there's something wrong with them.
There are so many things wrong with this:
1. Pretends to know why someone has chosen not to wear a specific piece of gear.
2. Assumes that everyone agrees with him.
3. Contends that people not wearing a specific piece of gear are "irritating" him.
All of which is bullshit...
If you have an opinion, fine. But don't talk down to me.
sitting on your couch can kill you to. I almost died there myself. lucky for me someone found me and took me to the E.R.
Quote from: 007brendan on September 27, 2010, 11:50:50 AM
QuoteIt's nothing more than that south park episode where the guys on Harleys rode around making more and more noise thinking everyone thought they sounded awesome, when everyone else was just irritated. The majority of people around my town without helmet just figure there's no point in riding a motorcycle if the girls can't see your face to know it's you. Meanwhile everyone on the outside just looks at them and thinks there's something wrong with them.
There are so many things wrong with this:
1. Pretends to know why someone has chosen not to wear a specific piece of gear.
2. Assumes that everyone agrees with him.
3. Contends that people not wearing a specific piece of gear are "irritating" him.
If I say 'the majority of people around my town', and you're not sitting there with me seeing what's going on outside of my office window 40 hours a week, how do you assume you have any idea what the people around my town do? You really assume all the chumps wearing ruff ryder vests and revving their gsxrs non stop at redlights as they do constant loops around the same city block for hours at a time are doing a single thing other than trying to get noticed? Some people are very predictable, and the crowd I see all day is one of them.
I know that not
everyone agrees. Clearly the 22 year old girls walking/carrying their 4 kids down the street are easily impressed, and probably don't agree with me.
Do I really need to contend that someone irritates me? Is there really someone here who's able to argue that something
doesn't irritate me?
I know it sounds like some people are just being condescending, but the way that every single person on a motorcycle behaves is a reflection on everyone else on a motorcycle. I've wasted more than enough of my life sitting on the side of the road after being pulled over for absolutely no reason other than being on a motorcycle, just because when a suburban cop sees someone on a sportbike they assume that you're doing something illegal. For all the people who do stupid things and end up with their face smashed into the pavement, which then gets plastered all over the news making everyone else in the motorcycle community have to deal with condescending comments from the rest of the general public on an ongoing basis just because I ride a motorcycle, I feel a little bit of irritation is deserved to the people who go out of their way to give otherwise good motorcyclists a poor public image. It may be your freedom to ride without a helmet on, but it turns a bit more public after a city worker has to shovel another motorcyclists face off the road with a shovel. Fair enough?