Anybody ever thought of doing a conversion to E85?? Does anybody know what would be needed?? Just watched an episode of OCC where they built a bike to run on E85. I know you get more power with it and it runs cleaner. Just a thought.
someone here was working on it. Try Search.
Rubber and ethanol don't mix...you would have to change all fuel lines etc to neoprene to avoid the drying and cracking...and you have to really increase your jetting to accomodate the extra fuel needed...the engine runs cooler and cleaner, but you burn more fuel...kind of a trade off...is E85 available down there?
Canada doesn't have many stations...most are in eastern Canada...I don't know if there are any in Alberta...some Canadian fuel is a light blend (E5-E15) that doesn't require any changes to the engine, but that is all I know.
Later.
+1.
The jetting is a massive increase- can't remember an exact number but it's somewhere around a 100% increase. The rubber in the carbs will be eaten away over time and ethanol needs higher combustion pressures to work effectively.
Quote from: Big Rich on February 02, 2011, 03:44:07 PM
+1.
The jetting is a massive increase- can't remember an exact number but it's somewhere around a 100% increase. The rubber in the carbs will be eaten away over time and ethanol needs higher combustion pressures to work effectively.
Yes, engines can be (highly) modified to run on alcohol, (add nitro methane too) but mostly used for drag racing purposes. I had plans to convert my old 1968 Triumph Spitfire. Pretty much impractical for "normal" use. Oh yeah, good for model airplane engines too....I has some little ones that would run good on alcohol with 40%~60% nitro methane.
E85 is nothing about performance and everything about politics. (Just MHO)
Cookie
Cookie
Yes, it's about politics...but politics that are trying to do the right thing...renewable resources are a good thing, but if they take away from the food supply...not so good...rather go without gasoline than food...once they figure out how to use the leftover food supply waste or byproduct to make the ethanol (or any alocohol base) then they will be onto something worth chasing...for now it is mostly political posturing...
Later.
It is a very high octane fuel so you can run higher compression and/or more ignition advance to get more power. In Iowa it is just over half the cost of 87 so it can be cheaper or at least about even with the higher consumption. The modifications are pretty extensive though. Compression can only be increased through machine work and the rejetting will not work with regular fuel anymore. Could be better on a high end FE bike with high compression already, but would need bigger fuel injectors and a lot of computer work.
Quote from: ChemDog on February 02, 2011, 12:06:17 PM
Anybody ever thought of doing a conversion to E85?? Does anybody know what would be needed?? Just watched an episode of OCC where they built a bike to run on E85. I know you get more power with it and it runs cleaner. Just a thought.
How do you know you get more power?
Maybe it runs Cleaner from the bike - BUT - what about the Dirty Running to manufacture it and transport the Biomass to the Ethanol Facility and then disposal of the Biomass - trucks still use diesel. What about the Electricity used to operate the ethanol plant? There is a tremendous amount of Dirty emissions so you can maybe have a cleaner emission from your bike.
Michael
The "more power" comes from the ability to build an engine that has a higher compression ratio...higher octane rating makes that possible, but you won't get the extra power if you don't build it into the engine...then you are just burning the ethanol fuel to get better emissions...
Later.
Thanks, Mad. I'd still like to know why the OP thinks you get more power.
Michael
Its in the way it burns. I have a few friends who run E85 in their turbo cars (one EVO, one WRX and a honda with a built K24 and huge GT60R turbo) and they make about 100-200 HP more on E85 vs 100 octane, however their cars are built to run on E85, so that would mean on 100 octane they are spitting way too much fuel so its not really efficient there...
You are able to make more power for less money in fuel, in theory. I don't know how true this is.
Quote from: jeffdodge on February 04, 2011, 10:25:36 PM
Its in the way it burns. I have a few friends who run E85 in their turbo cars (one EVO, one WRX and a honda with a built K24 and huge GT60R turbo) and they make about 100-200 HP more on E85 vs 100 octane, however their cars are built to run on E85, so that would mean on 100 octane they are spitting way too much fuel so its not really efficient there...
You are able to make more power for less money in fuel, in theory. I don't know how true this is.
"100-200hp more" just from a fuel?
Quote from: Twisted on February 04, 2011, 11:15:33 PM
"100-200hp more" just from a fuel?
230hp GS, here we go . . .
It's not the fuel...no magic in a bottle...if you build an all out engine specifically for E85, you can get away with higher stress levels due to the high octane rating and the cooling effect of the fuel...similar to top fuel engines...
It's how the engine is built, not the fuel itself...
jeffdodge may know what he is talking about, but he didn't explain it properly... :dunno_black:
Benefit of the doubt...
Later.
Quote from: jeffdodge on February 04, 2011, 10:25:36 PM
Its in the way it burns. I have a few friends who run E85 in their turbo cars (one EVO, one WRX and a honda with a built K24 and huge GT60R turbo) and they make about 100-200 HP more on E85 vs 100 octane, however their cars are built to run on E85, so that would mean on 100 octane they are spitting way too much fuel so its not really efficient there...
You are able to make more power for less money in fuel, in theory. I don't know how true this is.
Yeah, but it's NOT less money!
Cookie
Quote from: jeffdodge on February 04, 2011, 10:25:36 PM
Its in the way it burns. I have a few friends who run E85 in their turbo cars (one EVO, one WRX and a honda with a built K24 and huge GT60R turbo) and they make about 100-200 HP more on E85 vs 100 octane, however their cars are built to run on E85, so that would mean on 100 octane they are spitting way too much fuel so its not really efficient there...
You are able to make more power for less money in fuel, in theory. I don't know how true this is.
Searching the Internet does not bring up any power increase at all like that! I see power increase anywhere from ZERO, to about 8%. 8% is with a modified engine to take advantage of the properties of alchy.
The fuel air mixture is way different for alchy, so you are gonna get 40% or worse miles per gallon.
The real "magic" in power comes for turbo, supercharge, and nitrous oxide.........but what does that cost?
Cookie
So if I put E85 in my push lawnmower will that increase the horsepower enough to make it a hovercraft?
No, the blades don't face the right direction.
Quote from: paulc86 on February 05, 2011, 11:18:09 AM
No, the blades don't face the right direction.
Already been done...".Flymo"......they were popular in England.
Cookie
Quote from: twocool on February 05, 2011, 11:40:40 AM
Quote from: paulc86 on February 05, 2011, 11:18:09 AM
No, the blades don't face the right direction.
Already been done...".Flymo"......they were popular in England.
Cookie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwdPBggIv9I&feature=related
Cookie
The Flymo has a set of fan blades above the cutting blades.
The cutting blade of a standard push mower are either angled downward, or have no angle, therefore cannot produce lift.
[/threadjack]
Quote from: Twisted on February 04, 2011, 11:15:33 PM
Quote from: jeffdodge on February 04, 2011, 10:25:36 PM
Its in the way it burns. I have a few friends who run E85 in their turbo cars (one EVO, one WRX and a honda with a built K24 and huge GT60R turbo) and they make about 100-200 HP more on E85 vs 100 octane, however their cars are built to run on E85, so that would mean on 100 octane they are spitting way too much fuel so its not really efficient there...
You are able to make more power for less money in fuel, in theory. I don't know how true this is.
"100-200hp more" just from a fuel?
Quote from: madjak30 on February 05, 2011, 12:19:20 AM
It's not the fuel...no magic in a bottle...if you build an all out engine specifically for E85, you can get away with higher stress levels due to the high octane rating and the cooling effect of the fuel...similar to top fuel engines...
It's how the engine is built, not the fuel itself...
jeffdodge may know what he is talking about, but he didn't explain it properly... :dunno_black:
Benefit of the doubt...
Later.
Its not JUST in the fuel, but it allows more boost etc. than you can run on 100 octane. I don't know all the details to be able to explain it entirely, I just know what I saw on the dyno sheets... One was 431 HP @ 20psi on 100 octane after the car was setup for E85, then less than a week later made 679 @ 25psi on the same dyno after being properly tuned with E85 fuel in it.
Getting a car ready for making big power on E85 means big injectors, bigger fuel pump, bigger fuel lines on top of other things.
E85 has a lower energy density than gasoline. In other words, there is more stored energy in one gallon of gasoline than there is in one gallon of E85. This is why carb jets must be resized (or injectors upped in the case of EFI, along with a re-map), and why fuel economy suffers. Running E85 in a "gasoline built" engine means you will just be running cleaner. Because of the lower compression ratio of gasoline burning engines, the proper air/fuel ratio cannot be used for E85 to burn at maximum efficiency.
The flip side of E85, burns more cleanly. Also, generally speaking, E85 has a higher equivalent octane rating than gasoline. This means higher compression ratios can be used without the risk of detonation in an engine built for E85, which ultimately means more horsepower per cubic inch. Add a turbocharger to the mix and you have real fun; boost exacerbates the ping/detonation problem so E85 is commonly used in turbocharged high-performance applications to allow more compression and boost for more power.
The real benefit of running E85 in high performance engines is the higher octane rating. The more you can compress the explosive charge (fuel/air mix in the cylinder), the bigger boom it creates. Engines tuned/built to run E85 can run the insanely high compression ratios and boost levels that would make a gasoline engine melt.
Quote from: paulc86 on February 05, 2011, 09:17:55 PM
E85 has a lower energy density than gasoline. In other words, there is more stored energy in one gallon of gasoline than there is in one gallon of E85. This is why carb jets must be resized (or injectors upped in the case of EFI, along with a re-map), and why fuel economy suffers. Running E85 in a "gasoline built" engine means you will just be running cleaner. Because of the lower compression ratio of gasoline burning engines, the proper air/fuel ratio cannot be used for E85 to burn at maximum efficiency.
The flip side of E85, burns more cleanly. Also, generally speaking, E85 has a higher equivalent octane rating than gasoline. This means higher compression ratios can be used without the risk of detonation in an engine built for E85, which ultimately means more horsepower per cubic inch. Add a turbocharger to the mix and you have real fun; boost exacerbates the ping/detonation problem so E85 is commonly used in turbocharged high-performance applications to allow more compression and boost for more power.
The real benefit of running E85 in high performance engines is the higher octane rating. The more you can compress the explosive charge (fuel/air mix in the cylinder), the bigger boom it creates. Engines tuned/built to run E85 can run the insanely high compression ratios and boost levels that would make a gasoline engine melt.
Right........when you come right down to it....high performance engines, gas or alchy have one thing in common, and different from regular "street engines". That is the high performance engines use MORE FUEL! You can't get those high HP per cubic inch ratings without using fuel. Fuel has a given amount of power per gallon, so to get more total power, it' salways more fuel. Turbo or supercharger is a great way to run more fuel. Granted, for a given displacement, an alchy engine has the potential for more HP than the same size in gas.........for reasons stated above.
What kind of fuel economy do these 600 HP race cars get, (when producing 600 hp)?
So back to the original post.....what happens if youput E85 in a GS500 ?..........Not much, maybe disolve some seals.
What happens when the day comes that we a FORCED to use E-85 in all motorvehicles....nothing for performance...just way worse mileage, and probably more cost.
Cookie
Pretty much... Ever run fuel with even 10% ethanol in it with your regular car? It kills mileage and power. I have a Scion tC and have driven it cross country a few times, from PA to California and have used gas without ethanol and some with... Typically the less ethanol mixed, the more power the car seems to have as well as better mileage. It went from 36.1 MPG on 91 octane to 29.4 on some fuel I got with 15% ethanol... That is HUGE when you consider all driving was highway and on cruise control and the fact that this took place in the flat part of the country.
But besides the need for more fuel in high HP applications, Ethanol allows higher charge compression, a la higher compression ratios and higher boost numbers. These numbers aren't achieved with a "gasoline built" engine unless water injection, alcohol injection, and super high octane race fuels are used (and in some cases, the high octane race fuel isn't enough). The biggest gain comes from the higher compression capability. More compression = higher temperature, higher pressure, higher HP/TQ. Doesn't matter how much fuel you can cram in it if you vaporize a piston because the combustion process becomes unstable at higher pressures. Up the compression, you can use the proper stoichiometric ratio for E85, and your mileage will begin to balance out a little.
BTW, I had a turbo Volvo station wagon that got 17 MPG in city and 28 MPG on the highway. It was also a low compression engine, which most gasoline turbocharged engines are unless they are permanently restricted to octane boosters, water/alcohol injection, or E85.
As for being "forced" into E85, I don't see that happening anytime soon (at least where I live). The E85 we make here is corn based and more expensive per gallon than gasoline. And corn is too tied up in making artificial food sweeteners, fillers, preservatives, and livestock feed to be used for anything as trivial as alternative fuel. You're being "forced" to use gasoline right now. Gasoline is a bargain in terms of energy per unit volume, but it has its limitations.
I think that we are seeing the future of vehicles in the concept cars right now...the Chevy Volt started it a few years ago, and is now in production...the next step is the Jaguar concept car that is all electric like the Volt, but instead of using a gas engine to turn a generator, it has two small (about the size of a 32oz thermos) turbine engines that can run on alternative fuels...make that alternative fuel methane (made from composting organic material) and you will have a clean burning vehicle that burns renewable energy...Mad Max here we come...with a twist of course...
Later.
Quote from: madjak30 on February 06, 2011, 10:30:43 AM
I think that we are seeing the future of vehicles in the concept cars right now...the Chevy Volt started it a few years ago, and is now in production...the next step is the Jaguar concept car that is all electric like the Volt, but instead of using a gas engine to turn a generator, it has two small (about the size of a 32oz thermos) turbine engines that can run on alternative fuels...make that alternative fuel methane (made from composting organic material) and you will have a clean burning vehicle that burns renewable energy...Mad Max here we come...with a twist of course...
Later.
I would like to see much more of this. But it has only been in the last few years that the paradigm has shifted, and only because of the sharp rise in gas prices. The Prius has come down to $23,050 new for the 3rd gens, down from somewhere around $45K when they first came out. When its time for a new car for me, I will definitely consider the Prius (hybrid/electric for everyday driving, regular midsize SUV for bad weather, big loads, and towing, only to be used on occasion). The downside of the Volt and other Plug In Electrics is that they're so expensive. You are getting a car that normally would be worth about $20K (or $15K in the case of the Leaf), and the rest, you're paying for the expense of batteries (comparably, Volt is $32, where the Malibu is about $21). That discrepancy will go down as battery technology evolves. The volt is a semi-hybrid, too bad they didn't use a small turbine in the Volt instead of a gasoline motor. Turbines that small have been around for a while in the model aircraft hobby.