well after owning the bike for about 8 months, i haven't been able to drive/use it like a proper human being. When i bought it it went like devil's crippled mother, with one cylinder stuttering, hanging idle and not doing what it iwas supposed to. The po said it's been left for a year, the carbs need cleaning. ok i said, since i bought it relatively cheap (not that 400e for a 87000km 91' gs were so cheap) i didn't mind doing a carb clean-up. I did that and then it wouldn't fire up. (first thread in here, then). After hearing all the advices, doing a second and a third clean up with the help of the neighbours, the bike did fire up and i was happy as a clown, since it sounded almost healthy (no stuttering and stuff). After week or so I took the bike for a longer ride, and I had an idle hanging again, then back to stuttering with the one cylinder on and off and finally it dropped dead (actually couldn't keep going on one cylinder) 15km from home (second thread in here, then). After going to the spot to remove the carb, reclean it - nothing - going back to check the coils - in specs - and briefly failing for a week to fix it right were it was, I had it brought home. After many many hours fiddling around with it, i got it to start. Apparently it had been a fuel filter not providing much petrol to the carbs, or the fact that the fuel tank had a small amount of gas - it wasn't full (or so i thought and it was just a sign of His holiness).
Well the bike did fire up and that same day would fire up each time i tried, but it would work poorly, stuttering, hanging idle and the good old story. I read the other half of this marvelous forum's threads and i considered these: Perhaps i should change the oil and the oil filter (I knew that couldn't possibly be the solution but i was planning to either way, and sometimes hope does die last) but what was my temple of belief was adjusting the valves. I did the first the same day (I already had a filter sitting). Afterwards I fired it up and it was all the same (surprise!). Ok I said, it needs a valve adjustment.
While getting all the gear for that operation and finally doing it I read in here about a small little black cap on top of each carb whose absence might cause hanging idle. Well since I had one missing (yeah! Another temple of hope and belief) I thought that could also be the source of my problems. I completed the valve adjustment, found something to cap the carb and tried to fire it up with all my efforts, sweat, and hopes concentrated on that moment.
Now what do you think, would that bike fire up? Would that bloody, shitty f%$king bike fire up?
No sir, it definitely wouldn't.
Now what's the deal/what i have tried so far:
1.The oil/oil filter is new
2.The valves are in specs
3.There's a small cap on each carb (and even when i take it out it's all the same again)
4.The coils give spark
5.The spark plugs are new
6.Even if the battery is no good, i jump start it wired to the car's battery, so the spark should be healthy
7.The tank is full
8.Both carb bowls have fuel
9.The float height seems good
10.The carbs are clean
10.The
11.Even if 7,8,9 or 10 were the issue, the bike won't start even when i drip gas right to the air intakes of the carbs. The previous time i couldn't start the bike (when i finally got it working with the help of my neighbours to properly clean the carbs) that trick would make the bike fire for a couple of seconds. Now it does nothing.
11.It seems to have compression but I'm not sure as i have no tools to measure it. Could that alone be the issue since I had the bike running sometimes as you have read?
One hint: when i crank the engine i use the choke (it's about 5-10 degrees C here). If I crank the engine without it the noise of the spinning is flat, the same again and again. When i pull the choke I hear from time to time (say every 4 spins) a sound like the engine is going to fire up, you know, like when it gets compression and it fires up, giving fumes to the exhaust. And if i leave the choke and after a while get it back on, the next spin (the first with the choke on) will be a spin like that, sounding as i have described. But even if it sound like it's gonna start, it won't, however hard i abuse the ignition.
Any help greatly, greatly appreciated!
I once had one pass through my hands that had a constant misfire and would drop a cylinder from time to time. Eventually tracked it down to the reg/rect earth. Look at the battery` -` terminal and follow the black lead away from the battery, 2-3 inches along is a spade connecter, make sure its clean and tight......it worked for me :thumb:
The easy way to check for poor earths is to connect a jump-lead between the `-` terminal and a clean metalic point anywhere on the bike. If the problem goes away you have got a bad earth.......somewhere.
Welcome to my world.
gsdox
Is it very cold where you are? Have the carbs been rejetted? I have heard that the stock jets can be so lean that the bike just will not start below 45 F.
Do you have stock air intake?
Do you have stock exhaust?
Do you have a carb diagram to check if all the parts are there and all the hoses are routed correctly?
Do the carbs have the o rings under the plastic caps?
Are the air hoses old and cracked?
Have you tried a clear plastic hose attached to the carb float bowls to check the level and be sure there is gas in each one?
good luck.
Mine ran on one cylinder below 6k, so I had to always keep it a little revved if I didn't want my gas mileage to go down the drain. Not that that helps you any, just know that you don't have the only gs with the devil in it.
The most basic thing a motor needs is good compression. So far you have done a lot of work to it, but haven't checked the compression. You say the valves are 'in spec', does this mean the valve seats and faces are good, or just that the clearances are OK?
A compression test would not cost much to have done, or for not much more you could buy a cheap tester and have one to use on other vehicles.
How about doing a test and getting back to us, as that would eliminate one way or the other a major question mark about your bike.
Good luck.
If you do melt this bike to iron bars and then eat them bit by bit in your salad could you please post pics :thumb:
^ I wonder why he's called "twisted"? :dunno_black:
Thank you all for your suggestions!
@sledge: I'm jumpstarting the bike, so the -pole of the cars battery goes through a jumper cable to metallic part of the bike (i prefer the foot gear change lever). I think that should be sth like the easy way to check you suggested. Please tell me if I'm wrong and need to check again.
@ver4: If you 're thinking of eating your bike as well, i have a good recipe!
@BeerGarage: It's somewhere like 45F now but it's the colder period of the year. The bike is all stock and the carbs are not rejetted. I have the manual diagram and i think everything's ok. Consider i pour gas from the intakes and it doesn't fire up. There are o-rings under the caps, the air hoses are good, the carb float bowls are full (tried the thing with the clear hose).
@redhenracing2: Good luck dear fellow, do you think an exorcism would help us?
@the mole: I'm seriously thinking of buying a cheap compression tester (i found one with pieces with these specs: 10x1.0, 12x1.25, 14x1.25, 18x1.5, do you think it's suitable for the bike's spark plugs?) as i can't move the bike to have it tested. As for the valve clearances, i checked them, both intake and the right exhaust one were out of specs (very tight) and i got thinner shims. Now all of them are in specs. Just that, I don't know if the valve seats and faces are good, i didn't check that (i just spotted it on the haynes manual and it's not a job I'd confident to do).
Quote from: gsdox on February 06, 2011, 04:53:00 AM
Thank you all for your suggestions!
@sledge: I'm jumpstarting the bike, so the -pole of the cars battery goes through a jumper cable to metallic part of the bike (i prefer the foot gear change lever).
Well I hope the high current you're putting through the gear pedal doesn't end up welding it to something in the case or gearbox. I would NOT be using any sort of moving part as the earth point. Just connect to the battery terminal or some part of the engine case or engine mount bolt.
My wrenching skills are limited so I start with the basics. You checked the fuel and spark but I didn't read anything about air. Check the air filter or just pull it and see if it starts. I've also read on hear that these bikes seem prone to vacuum leaks that cause some of your problems. Check/Replace the lines
Just an idea....check your cam chain tensioner for proper operation and also check your cam timing while you are at it. I've seen engines act completely weird when the chain isn't tensioned right or when the timing is off by one tooth. Also, get a compression tester. They cost under $25 at most places and are worth their weight in gold. With compression numbers in hand, you will have a better picture of WTH is going on with the engine and it will help narrow things down. I agree with the person who suggested checking the ground wire... the bike goes nuts when that wire is loose.
PS:As for using ground points instead of the -ve on the battery itself for jump starting, I believe it is a BS theory. I've dealt with a mix of different vehicles including truck-to-motorcycle jumps with the batteries directly connected -ve to -ve and +ve to +ve and nothing ever blew up and no damage was done. As long as you have a properly working charging/regulator circuit on the running vehicle, you should be fine.
I have a thread somewhere where it listed all the things I had checked over on my bike to fix it.
Quote from: tb0lt on February 06, 2011, 08:59:51 AM
PS:As for using ground points instead of the -ve on the battery itself for jump starting, I believe it is a BS theory. I've dealt with a mix of different vehicles including truck-to-motorcycle jumps with the batteries directly connected -ve to -ve and +ve to +ve and nothing ever blew up and no damage was done. As long as you have a properly working charging/regulator circuit on the running vehicle, you should be fine.
I believe the reason they tell you not to connect directly to the battery is to prevent any hydrogen gas that may be present from being ignited by a spark.
Quote from: tb0lt on February 06, 2011, 08:59:51 AM
PS:As for using ground points instead of the -ve on the battery itself for jump starting, I believe it is a BS theory. I've dealt with a mix of different vehicles including truck-to-motorcycle jumps with the batteries directly connected -ve to -ve and +ve to +ve and nothing ever blew up and no damage was done. As long as you have a properly working charging/regulator circuit on the running vehicle, you should be fine.
So we can assume you have yet to come across a bike or any other vehicle with a poor or high-resistance connection from the battery to the frame then? :thumb:
This is a fault finding exercise, if that black lead from the battery is loose or dirty where it bolts to the metalwork you can try jump starting from a supertanker and it wont go :thumb:
GSDOX, if it were me, I'd be troubleshooting for an ignition fault, considering all that you've done so far and the symptoms, even though your #4 says you see spark (while cranking with the plugs out i'd guess), and assuming you know you have compression ...
For instance a failing igniter can give some of the symptoms you describe.
i had a similar problem on a second hand vehicle i brought ,the fellow told me that if didn't get it started first thing in the morning it wouldn't start all day .the problem was somebody put the condenser to earth .changed it around ran perfectly.Another possibility is the wire from the points is crimped too hard and is sheared under the plastic to the lug these suggestions are only applicable to older vehicles with points, i had these problems happen to me years ago.. good luck with what ever you find..
thanks again all of you guys for your interest and suggestions! You are truly very helpful (not only now but at my previous posts as well).
I'll try to see the earth-thing again. If i have understood correctly, I should Connect car+ to bike+ and car- to an earth point that is preferably a bolt on the bike's engine. If the bike's problem is only this faulty earth, the above connection will solve/bypass it right? And therefore it should work, right? Sorry for being a geek, but i want to be sure that i got everything clear...
Another thing: When i adjusted the valves, i did it without the special tool, just like mark on gstwin.com did it, by removing the camshafts (and necessarily by removing the chain tensioner too) . Then i put them back on but I missed a tooth on the chain, so when i cranked, it did a clong-noise. I fixed it by trying to get the notches on the camshafts face each other at the coil's p/t point. I put the chain tensioner back in (pretty stiff) and then all sounded fine. But couldn't work/start/fire up of course!!!
So with the noises facing each other, the valves with good clearance and a new gasket, is there sth i might have screwed up at this operation? Sth to look at?
Another thing: the compression meter i decribed earlier with specs: 10x1.0, 12x1.25, 14x1.25, 18x1.5 will fit the bike's spark plugs size (i just don't know what this sizes refer to / how to relate them to the ngk dp8ea-9 specs, which i don't have)??
And last but (perhaps) most important: When I say the bike gives spark, i mean i can feel it at my finger. I cannot actually see the spark with my eyes (I'm not blind though), if that's what you mean when you talk of spark. I just take the connected spark plug out and crank the engine. I don't see anything (I have done this at night too) but i put my finger and feel a little shock. That goes for both spark plugs, and is the same if the bike is jumpstarted or normally ignited. If I should see a spark, and what i get is just a weak spark, please say so
Thanks again guys!
Well it will melt mostly into aluminum ... but I guess I ahve to read it to post ... 1 sec.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: gsdox on February 05, 2011, 01:03:11 PM
5.The spark plugs are new
The story mimics my story with ginovega's bike. It sat in my garage for a week. The short story is this. I went to his house and we did a jet job. The bike ran just fine with the obvious rather quiet cadence of a stock pipe. I left and gino proceeded to change the oil and filter, and fit his V&H pipe. The bike was jetted for the pipe, it actually ran a bit rich with the stock pipe. Then it refused to start. He tried for a few days, then carted it over to my house.
I busted my butt, knuckles and head on it till one fine day I pulled the spark plugs out - they looked nice and shiny and in an attempt to read em put in old ones off my bike. Kaboom, first try it starts and runs like a champ. I should ahve charged gino 70,000 lbs of gold. That clown did not tell me he changed the plugs too.
You my friend are suffering from that same thing. However did you swap the plugs after it ran last ? if so that is the culprit.
If not, I got no idea.
Cool.
Buddha.
QuoteThen i put them back on but I missed a tooth on the chain, so when i cranked, it did a clong-noise
:o :nono:
gsdox, that could have been a valve getting bent. If I were you and wanted to avoid some VERY costly and time consuming repairs, double, triple check the cam timing marks before trying to start the bike. I know this would sound stupid, but under the circumstances, you are sure you didn't swap the cams between IN and EX, right? :). If that checks out, honestly, the next thing you need to do before screwing around and shooting in the dark is to get that compression tester like you've been planning.
Also, what do you mean the tensioner is pretty stiff? A properly working one should be smooth and pretty quick to spring back when unlocked. It shouldn't need to be manually tightened.
In case you are still shopping for compression testers....
http://www.harborfreight.com/compression-test-kit-66216.html (not sure if it includes the correct adapter... but it has a few)
http://www.harborfreight.com/quick-connect-compression-tester-95187.html (Includes a 12mm x 1.25 adapter to fit the GS plug threads)
spray some easystart (ether) in the air filter. If it starts and then dies, you have a fuel problem.
If not, your bike has an intermittent electrical problem.
I've had this too and it was driving me nuts. The bike would die after running great for days. Then it would'nt start no matter what I did.
Then, after countless hours of wrenching it would start and run perfectly again and I had no idea why... a few days later it would stall again.
It turned out that a connector near the fuse was corroded. :mad:
Quote from: gsdox on February 07, 2011, 07:30:01 AM
thanks again all of you guys for your interest and suggestions! You are truly very helpful (not only now but at my previous posts as well).
I'll try to see the earth-thing again. If i have understood correctly, I should Connect car+ to bike+ and car- to an earth point that is preferably a bolt on the bike's engine. If the bike's problem is only this faulty earth, the above connection will solve/bypass it right? And therefore it should work, right? Sorry for being a geek, but i want to be sure that i got everything clear...
Another thing: When i adjusted the valves, i did it without the special tool, just like mark on gstwin.com did it, by removing the camshafts (and necessarily by removing the chain tensioner too) . Then i put them back on but I missed a tooth on the chain, so when i cranked, it did a clong-noise. I fixed it by trying to get the notches on the camshafts face each other at the coil's p/t point. I put the chain tensioner back in (pretty stiff) and then all sounded fine. But couldn't work/start/fire up of course!!!
So with the noises facing each other, the valves with good clearance and a new gasket, is there sth i might have screwed up at this operation? Sth to look at?
Another thing: the compression meter i decribed earlier with specs: 10x1.0, 12x1.25, 14x1.25, 18x1.5 will fit the bike's spark plugs size (i just don't know what this sizes refer to / how to relate them to the ngk dp8ea-9 specs, which i don't have)??
And last but (perhaps) most important: When I say the bike gives spark, i mean i can feel it at my finger. I cannot actually see the spark with my eyes (I'm not blind though), if that's what you mean when you talk of spark. I just take the connected spark plug out and crank the engine. I don't see anything (I have done this at night too) but i put my finger and feel a little shock. That goes for both spark plugs, and is the same if the bike is jumpstarted or normally ignited. If I should see a spark, and what i get is just a weak spark, please say so
Thanks again guys!
!. Yes, you've got the earth idea right.
2. It sounds like you're not confident about the valve timing situation, so I'd definitely double check that you've got the valve timing and the tensioner right. Its not hard to get everything looking good but 180 degrees out, because the camshaft revolves at half the speed of the crank. If you use the special tool you don't have to disturb the cam/timing which makes life easier.
3. The numbers refer to the diameter and thread pitch of the adapters that fit different plug threads. I'm not sure what the GS thread is, but likely one of those will fit, someone else should know and come in..Sledge?
4.
If you can't see the spark you haven't got a spark. If you stick your finger in there you should get a belt that makes you jump. Sounds like you've found the problem.
Quote from: gsdox on February 07, 2011, 07:30:01 AM
Another thing: the compression meter i decribed earlier with specs: 10x1.0, 12x1.25, 14x1.25, 18x1.5 will fit the bike's spark plugs size (i just don't know what this sizes refer to / how to relate them to the ngk dp8ea-9 specs, which i don't have)??
And last but (perhaps) most important: When I say the bike gives spark, i mean i can feel it at my finger. I cannot actually see the spark with my eyes (I'm not blind though), if that's what you mean when you talk of spark. I just take the connected spark plug out and crank the engine. I don't see anything (I have done this at night too) but i put my finger and feel a little shock. That goes for both spark plugs, and is the same if the bike is jumpstarted or normally ignited. If I should see a spark, and what i get is just a weak spark, please say so
Thanks again guys!
Compression tester specs refer to thread sizes - the gs uses 18 mm spark plug iirc
Compression test without a tester : seal an open spark plug whole with your thumb and crank the motor - you should feel a buildup of air pressure. None would be bad.
Spark plug test : always provide a path to vehicle ground to prevent high voltage damage to electrical/electronic components. Go to Youtube and search 'spark plug test' for videos that'll show you how, and what to look for.
Quote from: bigfatcat on February 08, 2011, 05:09:52 AM
Compression tester specs refer to thread sizes - the gs uses 18 mm spark plug iirc
Compression test without a tester : seal an open spark plug whole with your thumb and crank the motor - you should feel a buildup of air pressure. None would be bad.
Spark plug test : always provide a path to vehicle ground to prevent high voltage damage to electrical/electronic components. Go to Youtube and search 'spark plug test' for videos that'll show you how, and what to look for.
I've posted the correct thread size earlier in this thread.
The spark plug thread size for the GS500 is 12 mm x 1.25 and therefore you will need a 12x1.25 adapter in the compression tester kit.
I've used the method mentioned by
bigfatcat before and it is a good enough technique to compare between cylinders. I've seen some geniuses literally stick their finger into the thread hole though..... :cookoo:
Although a good spark in open atmospheric pressure doesn't necessarily mean a good enough spark under compression, my usual technique to test for spark is to pull the plug in question, attach it to the plug wire, hold the threaded part or the hex part firmly against the cylinder head and press the starter button. Wear thick rubber gloves or hold the plug with insulated pliers while you do this unless you like high voltage shocks :)
all right guys, after a relatively big interval, i managed to learn how to perform spark test right, and the bike gives proper spark...
Then i bought a compression meter, and guess what? The left cylinder gives 25 psi (!!!) and the right one is even better, it gives NONE (the gauge won't move from zero)!
I thought i had had compression because air was getting sucked in and blown out, but my stupidity prevented me even from the basic comparison of the pressure of air between the two cylinders (the right one gives significantly less).
Sooooo... what i'm i gonna do now? Is it better to just trash the old f///ing thing? Or is it something easily fixable (i guess it couldn't be the latter but i have to keep the faith till the bike speaks itself up and asks me to have her turned into water pipes and door handles)
25 and 0 psi compression, OK I'd say your guage if F*(*&ed up or your method is. Even the worst would make over 50, in fact under 100 is almost trash. To get 25 and 0 you need to have no rings and no pistons.
Throttle wide open, even better if carbs are off, then fit the guage on tight without leaks, and it should crank nice and hard a few times till the guage stabilises @ the number.
Cool.
Buddha.
very interesting thread!
I hope you get it fixed.
Do not give hope on that ol' GS, she'll love ya once you fix her ;)
thanks buddha, one thing is for sure, the throttle wasn't wide open, not open at all (and the carbs were on...). I'll try that again... tomorrow
Oh and thank you kml.krk for your wishes. I have a vague idea that it wasnt meant to be< you know< between me and her! anyway if anything good arises< you will notice!
and if you get a low reading on one cylinder, put a teaspoon of 2T oil into the bore and retest - if reading improves significantly you're looking at rings, if not valves...
Quote from: gsdox on March 29, 2011, 01:23:08 PM
thanks buddha, one thing is for sure, the throttle wasn't wide open, not open at all (and the carbs were on...). I'll try that again... tomorrow
Yes, the compression tester is measuring the pressure of the air in the cylinder after it has been compressed by the rising piston. If the throttle is shut, you don't get much air in the cylinder=low reading.
The other thing that would give you a low reading is if you did bend the valve when you heard that loud 'clang', that would read zero for sure.
Another possibility is the cams are not correctly synched with the crank, which can happen if you've been messing with the camchain.
This might sound newbie-ish but I just went through the same problem exactly. Did you check to see if the new plugs were wet after cranking? I went through ever single step of your dilema and found the plugs were not getting fuel.
Any progress??
I have to admit I only read bits and pieces, but a lot of what he describes sounds similar to what I feel when running out of gas. Is it possible it is as simple a problem as some clogged/warped fuel lines that are not allowing proper flow?
I am still hoping the OP is going to melt this bike to iron bars and then eat them bit by bit in his salad. :icon_neutral:
guys, after getting fed up with the problems, i decided to swap the engine...
I guess I have caused a problem to the valves or something, but since i faced problems getting the engine to work before as well, I considered letting it go (the engine already had 87000km) and decided to find another one. Which i did. And it works, let's see how well...
You ever try pouring a little gas in the sparkplug hole, putting the plug in and seeing if it will start? If it doesnt then it seems like it might be an ignition issue.
Quote from: mass-hole on May 18, 2011, 09:04:49 AM
You ever try pouring a little gas in the sparkplug hole, putting the plug in and seeing if it will start? If it doesnt then it seems like it might be an ignition issue.
Do not do this. You will end up with hydrolocked motor and can cause all sorts of fun. Like bent rods.
Cool.
Buddha.
I had done that (gas in the sparkplug hole) more than once. So now I can't be sure about the extent of the destruction i have caused to the previous engine :confused:. Which is a shame, as it did have fired-up a couple of times (lets say 10-15 times to be fair) in it's now-almost-over-a-year period of my ownership of the bike. Poor engine, if it had been in better hands, it would have gotten some thousand kilometers more down the road...
WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!! :cookoo:YHEA!
The bike has the same problem again (see first posts for that, but in a few words, after a 20' of riding solo in a warm day -say around 28-30 celcius- it started stuttering in the highway, not being able to rev up. Thank god i managed to get her home-the final 500 meters pushing it) WITH THE SWAPPED ENGINE!!
So I am a proven dumb ass as i have swapped an engine that was already ok (well maybe i have trashed it a little bit by that valve adjustment thing, but anyway... :icon_sad:)
Now back to the same with a big hint (that costs 320euro); it can't be the engine or the carbs, as both are swapped (and i can't believe i would be so unlucky to have got a set of faulty ones again from a crashed bike whose engine i saw working properly). So it's the electric, coils? ignition?
God (or allah) I hope i can get her to start, as the first time this thing happened, I was unable later to make her start as if keeping the engine running (to get back) on stutter (trying to rev up to move a little and then rolling on neutral) till she finally went out and didn't fire back on (which i then thought was due to the heat), somehow damaged the whole thing and wouldn't let it start up again. Anyway then I made a lot of mistakes the same time. Now (without needing to be in panic, as the bike is at my place) i will take it slowly, trying to avoid the crap i have been through the last time...
Make sure the battery is charged 100%. Then test for a big fat spark on the plugs you are using (not some plug you have laying around). Check the cold compression on both cylinders (will be lower than a hot compression test, but they should be within 10% of each other). Make sure gas is in the float bowls and try to start it again. If it still doesn't start pull both plugs and make sure they are wet with gas. If they are dry, then your carbs aren't clean. If they are wet, then your timing is off (not likely).
Anything else?
One more thing: I know that OLD coils begin to fail by missing at higher rpm's. As they get worse they will actually stop working when they heat up. But after the motor cools down (about 30 minutes) the bike will fire up and run again.
When I say old coils, I mean coils from the late 60's / early 70's. So they probably aren't your problem. There should be a test for checking the primary and secondary windings in the service manual though.
The crank trigger coils usually die when hot. In fact there have been cases where they continue to work when you keep the revs up but die when you close the throttle.
I also have had it fail in 1 cyl when hot only.
You could have that happen, unless you got a new crank trigger with the new motor.
Cool.
Buddha.
Thank you all for your suggestions!
Budha could you show me exactly what and where the crank triggers are (if you have the haynes manual you could point me to a page-photo)? I would very very much appreciate it, as i don't have a clue... :icon_neutral:
Quote from: gsdox on June 03, 2011, 12:02:56 PM
Thank you all for your suggestions!
Budha could you show me exactly what and where the crank triggers are (if you have the haynes manual you could point me to a page-photo)? I would very very much appreciate it, as i don't have a clue... :icon_neutral:
They are under the round cover on the right side engine case.Three bolts holds the cover on and there should be no oil in there so no gasket to worry with.
I had issues too. I went and cleaned all my electrical connections with wd-40 and it never had any more problems. The ones I notice had the most corrosion was the ones under the seat by the fuse.
unfortunately i got a whole "new" engine box, i mean with crank trigger and all. So i guess it shouldn't be that...
Now owning the bike for a year and the only kilometres i've ridden on it are those that have resulted in me pushing it :technical:
If anybody has faced a problem in the ELECTRICS section, a problem that would cause the bike to run poorly, stuttering, working only if you rev up, then more stuttering and finally going dead once and for good PLEASE GIVE A HINT!!
I can't think of anything other than changing the whole electric set of the bike. But that would be a huge pain in the ass.
The most characteristic thing of the problem i'm facing is that with the new engine, the bike did work. Then i took it for a ride 2 up no prob. Then i took it for a ride myself and it got f@#$d up again.
AND NOW IT WON' T EVEN START!!
The previous owner had told me that someday there had been an attempt to steal the bike using a screwdriver in the locker-ignition-key slot (how is this thing called anyway?) and that any key would do to start it. Does that have sth to do with the prob?
(maybe a silly question but as i have faced completely similar problems with a kawasaki kle i owned with it's key slot also abused-don't ask me if that had been the issue, i didn't have enough nerves to fix it- i'm just wondering)
PLEASE HELP as i'm starting to believe i'm cursed :icon_twisted: :mad:
The locker-ignition/key-slot dooooohickieee is called an ignition switch (nope, it is not called that, because on some cars the ignition switch is on the steering column down by your feet) is called a lock cylinder (which on some cars is connected to ignition switch by a metal rod).
Anyway.... i am going to melt my bike down to metal bars also. Weather gets good and it has been in the shed the entire time; well, except when i take it for a spin and it dies on me, or spits and sputters, or won't go above 3/4 throttle, or runs great for first five miles... then i'm sitting on the side of the road trying to do the whole 'i'm not emberrasssed my bike is broke down... i just think it is so bad ars that i pull over, get off and look at it for a while' thing. Then get on it ten minutes later and it barely runs right long enough to get me home.
I sent my carbs out for a go-over, haven't heard back on them, ordered another set off ebay, same problems.... well slightly worse now, plus i forgot to hook up crank vent (i tucked it up under the frame in a kink to get it out of my way, forgot about it.... spewed oil out of engine seals..... fun stuff).
I think i will check the valves..... grrrr.
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.
Good luck with yours.
Maybe your ignition box died? (or a wire to/from it?)
thanks gs500 for your answer. The thing is I just have an update; I changes the ignition box as you suggested and the bike did fire up. Hesitantly, you could hear it spin just like before, but once in a while there was this trying-to-start sound (as though on one cylinder, or just like before, when it was running and was going to die till it finally did). Then i swapped the coils too and it was the same. The final thing i did was to swap that fuse tin haynes manual p 8.17 pict 28.2a. By that time the engine was running normally (or in a way that it seemed normal). I warmed it up for good. Then I swapped back the ignition box and with the old one it was also running the same way. Then i swapped back the fuse and it was also running... :cookoo:
Even though the engine now starts and runs fine (or so i believe) I can't feel secure with this bike. I'm worried that i will make a few kilometers and then it will get screwed up again.... :icon_neutral:
I know with some cars i've hard, the plugs and connectors get corroded and loose contact. Unplugging and reseating them may have made enough contact to make a circuit, but in th future will do the same thing again, leaving you scratching your head..
-Justin
there's this thing that i keep wondering about.The battery has lost liquids just where the ignition box is, and the metal part where the ignition box is held screwed onto, is corroded (you know, that white thing like mucus that corrodes metal when electrolyte is spilled over). So i scratched that part to get some of that white thing out.
Now IF the ignition box IS GROUNDED to that metal part, that white thing might have prevented grounding...
That would be a good answer if the ignition box needs to be grounded, if not, i'm talking bullshit again :icon_rolleyes:
Quote from: gsdox on June 12, 2011, 07:00:31 AM
there's this thing that i keep wondering about.The battery has lost liquids just where the ignition box is, and the metal part where the ignition box is held screwed onto, is corroded (you know, that white thing like mucus that corrodes metal when electrolyte is spilled over). So i scratched that part to get some of that white thing out.
Now IF the ignition box IS GROUNDED to that metal part, that white thing might have prevented grounding...
That would be a good answer if the ignition box needs to be grounded, if not, i'm talking bullshaZam! again :icon_rolleyes:
The ICU (ignition control unit) is not grounded that way.
Ground for the ICU is black/white wire from the four pin connector, goes to battery neg terminal.
Hi,
I hav had a problem like yours and it was the spark plug cables that would fail when they got hot. It was easy to fix though.
Take off each spark plug cap, and turn it one or two full turns clockwise and reinstall it.
It's worth a try. It won't cost you anything and takes less than a minute to do.
FWIW: I was tinkering with mine doing the same thing as yours.
I set up the gas tank (hanging from a rafter above the bike, so i could work on it and run it at same time) directly to the carb... aka: i bypassed the frame mounted petcock. It started up and idled on choke until warmed up, and then idled and revved fine without choke about a minute after initial startup. (this doesn't make much sense, since i can turn of the fuel at the tank and the bike will run/idle low revs for a good minute or three... with no gas going to carb... so.... i guess the frame mounted petcock was just FUBAR and really restricting gas flow... unexpectedly).
Suspect your frame mounted petcock.
I had previously tested it by applying vacuum to it, and then seeing that i could blow through all the ports... which i could.
So i have to imagine my bike is not making good vacuum at idle... or at all.... for whatever reason. I unplugged the hose going to the petcock vacuum, and the engine stumbled and stopped... like it had a vacuum leak, so it 'should' have worked.... but it didn't. It's on it's way to a trash can.
I took the frame mounted petcock off, and took it apart. I found nothing obvious wrong with it (vacuum side was dry and clean, fuel side was wet from fuel and clean... everything looked as i expected. Did not see any holes or cracks or problems with diaphragm.... but i'll be danged if i am putting it back in). crf250x petcock on order now.
I know, i should have hooked it back up through the petcock and seen if that made the problem re-occur (but i didn't).
Note: i did take the carb apart before doing all that, but i made no changes, found no problems, put it back together.
Note 2: i am using 06' carb on an 01' bike, so i don't really expect it to work right... but will be pleased if it does. Won't know until i get a new petcock.
You can bypass the petcock pretty quickly, just two allen bolts, and then plug 'main/on', and connect reserve to the one going to carb (but you'll be leaking gas while doing all that... caution tree huggers). Or maybe just apply good vacuum to the vacuum port of petcock (ummm, use your mouth and suck ahhahahahah) and see if idle/rev improves.
Now i have backfiring through right side carb... off to the search function for me.
all right again! It failed me once more!
I was out to test it and after 700-800 meters it started stumbling again. I turned around to take it home and after running on one cylinder, it completely died 100 meters from home. And guess what, now the engine won't start (with the newer ignition box, coils ad fuse installed) :confused:
gs500e I don't think it's the petcock as I have swapped it (and the routing) with another one (from the crashed bike, so i guess I wouldn' t have the same problem with that one too).
The spark plug cables shouldn't be the thing as well, as i swapped the coils with the cables all together.
The fact that the bike did start when i messed around with its electronics, makes me think that it must be sth like xunedeinx said.
But does anyone have a clue where to look for at first? what connections are to blame for not starting, connections that have caused you trouble as well...
Thanks guys for all the input!
Could the choke be stuck on? Choke cable lubed, throttle cable as well...
Is start going threw and cleaning all the connectors with a small wire brush, and checking them with a circuit tester to make sure their ok. Replace and solder/splice in new wireing where it appears damaged. Also replace all vac hoses and fittings and fuel hoses. Start with the cheap shaZam!. :embarassed:
Just throwing this out there.The kill switch could be shorting out or possibly the side stand switch.My side stand is worn.Sometimes it can vibrate just right, let the switch release, and kill the engine.
do a oil change into a clean oil pan and run it through a coffee filter, MAKE SURE YOU REFILL IT, too many times i have seen someone start a engine without oil... If theres a large number of metal shavings filtered out, you might be SOL.
if thats good move on to the next step.
Can you turn the engine with the rear tire, does it feel very fluid and smooth or does it feel hard easy hard easy (turn it over in 4th or 5th if ya can)
pull the spark plugs and turn the engine again and see if it feels much different. also take pictures of the spark plugs.
it should be hard to turn then easy then hard that means its compressing something.
if theres no major issue yet then we need to start looking at fuel and spark.
pull out the ole DVOM (multi meter) and test your new coils (everything can fail never write something off in a diagnostic)
if the coils are good now the tricky part
unplug the coils from the ignition and unbolt your exhaust (don't fully take it off just undo the bolts that hold it in place to the head)
stick a peice of cardboard or something strong between the head and the exhaust and turn the engine over with the starter, the engine should not start if it even acts like its trying to fire you didn't unplug the ignition and can damage your valves.
after a few revolutions pull the divider out and there should be fuel on it. If not we have our general diagnosis and now you get to play with carbs...
This is just basic engine diagnosis from my mechanics background, if theres anything else more specific to GS's I don't know it yet.
Thank you all for the input,
As I havew said it's 99% an electric issue, as the engine, carbs, fuel lines, petcock are swapped from a crashed bike that was working.Also ignition box, coils (the ones bolted on the frame under the tank) with spark-plug cables are swapped as well. It must be a corroded connection somewhere, but i haven't been able to trace it till now... let's see...
Any ideas where to look at from people facing similar (electric) issues, are most welcome ;)
Next time you go to start it, put it on the centerstand with a fan blowing on the motor. Let it run for 20-30 minutes and see if it shuts down again. If yes, something is overheating. If no, you have a wire vibrating loose. My money would be something is overheating though.
Thanks Big Rich, the thing is that it won't start again! Every time it dies, it won't fire up from then again, until i unbolt the whole crap and do sth with no meaning at all. Then it will start just to give me hopes, make me drive it again for a small ride, give me more hopes that it's ok, make me drive it again for a long ride, where it will die leaving me out in the dark with a f$%ing pile of shaZam! that won't move it's stinking butt...
Quote from: gsdox on June 20, 2011, 02:56:13 AM
Thanks Big Rich, the thing is that it won't start again! Every time it dies, it won't fire up from then again, until i unbolt the whole crap and do sth with no meaning at all. Then it will start just to give me hopes, make me drive it again for a small ride, give me more hopes that it's ok, make me drive it again for a long ride, where it will die leaving me out in the dark with a f$%ing pile of shaZam! that won't move it's stinking butt...
Sounds like the primary ignition circuit ... iirc you said you put a different (used?) igniter on the bike - how do you know that igniter is good ? or that if it was good initially, you may have damaged it somehow (like maybe your voltage/regulator allows too much voltage or ac into the circuit).
I've seen several igniters fail in different ways - bike starts fine, runs strong for 5 minutes, then sputters and shuts down. Or there is a lack of power, one cylinder dropping out intermittently, etc)
To operate properly that igniter needs constant '12vdc' from the battery thru the orange/white wire thru the four pin igniter connector . That means all the switches and connectors on that circuit must be good for the thing to run.
Or, that same circuit powers the ignition coils so likewise must be good, and then from the ignition coils two wires must be continuous to the igniter - white, and black/white (?) - for those to operate.
The ground wire from the igniter must be unbbroken to battery ground.
All in all not complicated, but seems like it if you haven't isolated the problem.
Me, I would just bypass the whole mess with a temporary circuit of correct gauge wire and a on off switch - Dangerous as hell to ride the bike like that 'cuz your bypassing the safety switches ... but that's sometimes what you gotta do to get an old vehicle running enough to figure it out. Or eliminate electrical as cause of the problem.
Sounds like you need someone more experienced to help you out.
Bigfatcat you're so right that i need someone more experienced than me to help me sort thing out. Finally i might have to get the bike to an electrician, but that, apart from the money it will cost, is a hard task, as I will have to have the bike towed or sth. It should be what you suggest, my bike behaves like you have described, but i'm now totally devastated to think that i might have destroyed two! ignition boxes and that I might also need a regulator... but that is the sad true, i guess.
Anyway could you tell me a bit more about the temporary circuit? Is going to connect the positive of the battery straight to the ignition coils or what. Please excuse my luck of knowledge and silly questions... And thank you so much for your advice, things seem more certain now in my head...
Quote from: gsdox on June 20, 2011, 11:54:35 PM
Bigfatcat you're so right that i need someone more experienced than me to help me sort thing out. Finally i might have to get the bike to an electrician, but that, apart from the money it will cost, is a hard task, as I will have to have the bike towed or sth. It should be what you suggest, my bike behaves like you have described, but i'm now totally devastated to think that i might have destroyed two! ignition boxes and that I might also need a regulator... but that is the sad true, i guess.
Anyway could you tell me a bit more about the temporary circuit? Is going to connect the positive of the battery straight to the ignition coils or what. Please excuse my luck of knowledge and silly questions... And thank you so much for your advice, things seem more certain now in my head...
I'll make a video use my gs and post it, maybe today if I can scrounge some time .
I doubt you destroyed your igniters, just one of several possibilities, so don't worry about that yet.
Quote from: gsdox on June 20, 2011, 11:54:35 PM
Anyway could you tell me a bit more about the temporary circuit? Is going to connect the positive of the battery straight to the ignition coils or what. Please excuse my luck of knowledge and silly questions... And thank you so much for your advice, things seem more certain now in my head...
I made a video describing what i'd do in your situation - let me know if u want it .
sorry guys (and especially to you bigfatcat) for not dropping in, I have moved and don't have internet at my new place for the time being...
Of course i want the videobigfatcat, thank you a lot ! Please tell me what i have to do to get it! :cheers:
PM to u, gsdox.
Still waiting to see the metal eating display (http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y196/njneere/Funny/eating-popcorn.gif?t=1281752304)
Michael
So many issues at once are difficult to diagnose. A new motor was in order but this bike like any other modern bike I know of won't run worth a damn without a good battery. All street bikes I know of made since the early 70's have battery ignition, meaning the ignition runs off the battery and the alternator/rectifier/voltage regulator charges the battery, meaning the bike won't run for crap without a good battery. My first dirt bike was made that way and Jack Benny was still alive. If you don't know who Jack Benny is don't tell me, I don't want to know! You can't just jump it and ride it. It's not a car. A bad battery will cause weak ignition, especially at higher rpm, and can overload your charging system, even to the point of causing voltage regulator failure.
As for the idle hanging, you probably still have dirt and/or wear in your carb slides, making them stay up longer than they should, assuming your diaphragms are in good shape and the vacuum tubes are connected and not cracked. My idle was hanging quite a bit when I bought this thing once it got good and hot. I just kept putting Marvel Mystery Oil in the gas and kept riding it and it mostly went away over time. It will still hang at about 2,000 rpm after riding for an hour at highway speeds, but after 15 seconds or so it will settle to a normal idle. If my trips are under an hour, which is almost always, it doesn't happen. Some guys get all bent out of shape over hanging idle and it's no big deal to me. To me it's not a rideability issue. Don't give up, you're almost there!
Quote from: bill14224 on July 02, 2011, 02:01:06 PM
So many issues at once are difficult to diagnose. ...[ much wisdom ]... A bad battery will cause weak ignition, especially at higher rpm, and can overload your charging system, even to the point of causing voltage regulator failure...
[ more wisdom ].
Jack Benny ? Then u may have heard the old saying among mechanics "Most carb problems are electrical", meaning that electrical issues can be mis-interpreted as carburetor faults. Especially true back in the days of 6 Vdc systems.
Good battery very important - I was guilty in the past of running cheapo autozone/wal mart crap batteries and even new they would sometimes give problems, often not holding a charge if the bike sat for a week or so ...
And that's a really good point about the gs500 ignition system being 'battery powered' - the ignition coils are battery powered, as well as the ICU. I've seen the mistaken notion on this board that the gs500 has a 'cdi' - no it's not. That's for higher compression, higher revving engines.
Hopefully gsDox can troubleshoot his ignition and find some simple fault easily corrected.
Better than eating an iron salad.
Thanks a lot to you all and a special thank to bigfatcar who got himself in a lot of trouble just to help me. I'll keep you posted about my efforts, but it's going to take a while, as i have moved but haven't got everything to my new place (the gs is still waiting).
:cheers:
Quote from: bill14224 on July 02, 2011, 02:01:06 PM
So many issues at once are difficult to diagnose. A new motor was in order but this bike like any other modern bike I know of won't run worth a damn without a good battery. All street bikes I know of made since the early 70's have battery ignition, meaning the ignition runs off the battery and the alternator/rectifier/voltage regulator charges the battery, meaning the bike won't run for crap without a good battery. My first dirt bike was made that way and Jack Benny was still alive. If you don't know who Jack Benny is don't tell me, I don't want to know! You can't just jump it and ride it. It's not a car. A bad battery will cause weak ignition, especially at higher rpm, and can overload your charging system, even to the point of causing voltage regulator failure.
As for the idle hanging, you probably still have dirt and/or wear in your carb slides, making them stay up longer than they should, assuming your diaphragms are in good shape and the vacuum tubes are connected and not cracked. My idle was hanging quite a bit when I bought this thing once it got good and hot. I just kept putting Marvel Mystery Oil in the gas and kept riding it and it mostly went away over time. It will still hang at about 2,000 rpm after riding for an hour at highway speeds, but after 15 seconds or so it will settle to a normal idle. If my trips are under an hour, which is almost always, it doesn't happen. Some guys get all bent out of shape over hanging idle and it's no big deal to me. To me it's not a rideability issue. Don't give up, you're almost there!
small hanging idle isnt a problem... but a high one 3K+ is dangerous... I know first hand as my bike tried to kill me because of it... It was a lot of inexperience and right shaZam! at the wrong time but I fell because I accidentally forgot to cover the clutch in a parade, the idle hung, I tried to stop going down a hill and somehow did a stopie, the bike reved up and spun the tire and when the back hit again it was bad news... perfect storm but possible with a 3k+ hanging idle
Check my thread. My issue ended being missing parts in the top of the carb coupled with poor quality fuel and vacuum lines. The lines were collapsing internally.
Quote from: sledge on February 05, 2011, 01:48:34 PM
I once had one pass through my hands that had a constant misfire and would drop a cylinder from time to time. Eventually tracked it down to the reg/rect earth. Look at the battery` -` terminal and follow the black lead away from the battery, 2-3 inches along is a spade connecter, make sure its clean and tight......it worked for me :thumb:
The easy way to check for poor earths is to connect a jump-lead between the `-` terminal and a clean metalic point anywhere on the bike. If the problem goes away you have got a bad earth.......somewhere.
aye. ive won a parts gs this way. guy said if i can get it to fire. its mine. i did in 10 minutes. using a spare set of jumper cables. had a bad ground somewhere in teh wiring mess of doom