Okay well this time I turned the choke all the way on so the bike had about 4000 RPM. When I unpluged the left side it only dropped about 500RPM. When I unpluged the right side it dropped about 2000-2500 RPM. So that's left side 3500RPM right side drops down to about 2000 to 1500 RPM.
Any suggestions?
Thanks
Timothy
Oh, I forgot to add that I get an electriacl shock from both the right and left side, but the right side hurts a whole lot more. Kind of erotic in a way. :o
Cool! So, it could be as simple as a bad spark plug.
But I know from past experience that just because the plug "sparks" doesn't mean things are working right. When I had the dreaded "running on one cylinder" problem, I was stumped because both plugs tested out OK. (Although the spark did seem more yellow than the nice blue I kept hearing I should get.)
If you switch plugs and the problem switches sides, get a new plug. (You should keep a spare pair anyway, right?)
If the problem stays on the same side, try switching the ignition coils. If the problem switches sides, you might be looking at a new coil. (But before you buy, test the old one with an ohmmeter. We can give you the right resistance values.
If the problem is STILL on the same side, it's time to check your signal generator circuits. Start by taking off the round "Suzuki" cover on the right side of the bike. Look for anything that's loose or damaged. If everything looks good, I can walk you through a couple of electrical tests using an ohmmeter at a couple of connectors near the battery.
You haven't mentioned yet whether you have an ohmmeter. If you do, read my posts in the following threads and see if they help. (Use the resistance values from the first post, and the step-by-step instructions from the second.)
problem starting it, then it dies, help! (http://www.gstwins.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2020&highlight=ohms+coils)
no spark now (http://www.gstwins.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1696&highlight=ohms+coils)
A portion of one of the wiring diagrams in my Haynes manual may be useful, too. The corroded 4-wire connector (from the pictures in the second thread above) is in the upper-left corner of this diagram. The three wire connector that comes off the wiring harness near the battery is in the middle right of the diagram (with the same Green/white, Brown and Black/blue wires).
(http://www.bbburma.net/Scans/Haynes_IgnitionWiring.jpg)
When you test the ignition coils, you need to know which are the primary windings and which are the secondary. To test the primary windings, remove the connectors for the small wires that come from the ignition system. Use the connection points as your test points. To test the secondary windings, touch one lead inside the spark plug boot and the other to ground. At least, I HOPE that's right!
EDIT: Changed link from sisna.com to bbburma.net
An ohmmeter is a tool that measures resistance in electrical wiring. You can get one at a hardware store. Home Depot, Lowes, and other places like that should carry them. Better chance of finding one would be at a local electrical supply store.
Ohmmeter = The function on a multimeter which measures electrical resistance. Here are some pictures of the one I have at work. Cost is about $15. (They can go a little cheaper, or WAY more expensive, too.)
(http://www.bbburma.net/MiscFotos/100_0624_Multimeter_1.jpg)
(http://www.bbburma.net/MiscFotos/100_0624_Multimeter_2.jpg)
The ohmmeter functions are in the lower left, with the Greek "Omega" symbol.
Yes, the idle should be set somewhere around 1300. When you start out from a stop, you should be giving it some gas. Your revs should be around 2500 at a minimum - more if you're taking off from a green light ;).
The right-side Suzuki plate has no gasket behind it, because there are no fluids back there. It hides a whirling rotor-thingie that sends the spark signal to your ignition coils. There are a few wires and connectors - I just wanted you to give them a visual check, feel for tight connections, etc.
Would a weak battery cause these symptoms? Uhhhh ... maybe. But if it consistently starts the bike, it's not weak.
Stock NGK plugs are perfect. You got the ones in the middle of the "heat range" right? DPR8EA-9? And you set the gaps correctly?
EDIT: Changed links from sisna.com to bbburma.net
Take your time. But whatever you do, don't give up!
BTW, my information on testing the ignition coils wasn't quite correct. This diagram shows the right test points for the secondary windings:
(http://www.bbburma.net/Scans/Haynes_IgnitionCoilTest.jpg)
Resistance values for ignition coils:
Primary windings = 3.0 to 6.0 ohms
Secondary windings = 18,000 to 30,000 ohms
And for good measure, the pulse generator coils in the wiring diagram should register 250 to 420 ohms.
EDIT: Changed link from sisna.com to bbburma.net
Kerry, you were right the first time on the coil procedure. The picture is showing an IB (insulation breakdown) test for the coil which should be open (any resistance including 0 is a bad coil). Secondary resistance is from plug lead to ground (for a single spark plug coil). The range of the numbers for secondary resistance looks like it is for either a test with or without the plug cap so it can be done either at the plug cap (as shown, except to ground instead of the primary post) or where the plug wire connects to the coil. Checking from the plug cap to the mounting post of the coil is the easiest in most cases.
Quote from: Kerry
Stock NGK plugs are perfect. You got the ones in the middle of the "heat range" right? DPR8EA-9? And you set the gaps correctly?
NGK
The box has two numbers 4929 and DPR8EA-9 It doesn't say anything about heat range. They are gapped correctlly.
-Timothy
Test with the bike OFF. You can test the coils without removing them from the bike. You might be able to get at them without removing anything, but it will be easier if the tank is off.
My Haynes manual mentions NGK DPR8EA-8 and DPR8EA-10 plugs (I think those are the numbers) for situations when you need a "colder" or "hotter" plug. But forget I ever mentioned "heat range" - you got the right stuff.
Finally, don't go replacing parts until you know what's wrong. Eliminate things one at a time. If/when the time comes, ask on this board first, and then start checking online places like BikeBandit, motorcycle wrecking yards, etc.
Quote from: MooseAll an ohm meter allows you to do is test continuity or a continuious circuit.
Moose, I think you're talking about a continuity tester, which is a handy tool for Yes/No situations.
In this case we're checking for resistance values within certain ranges, therefore the ohmmeter, which measures resistance in
ohms. The symbol for the ohm is that Greek Omega character on the multimeter picture.
[FWIW - The ohm is named after a German physicist named Georg Simon Ohm who was born in 1787 and died in 1854. He is the guy who came up with Ohm's Law, which spells out the relationship between the voltage, current, and resistance in a given circuit. For more info, see
http://webhome.idirect.com/~jadams/electronics/ohm.htm or any of hundreds more pages you can find with an Internet search engine.]
Quote from: KerryMoose, I think you're talking about a continuity tester, which is a handy tool for Yes/No situations.
In this case we're checking for resistance values within certain ranges, therefore the ohmmeter, which measures resistance in ohms. The symbol for the ohm is that Greek Omega character on the multimeter picture.
I do apologize for giving incorrect information. You are right the ohm meter test for resistance and a continuity tester test for a complete circuit.
Ohms; This is the resistance of the wire to flow of electricity. Or thinking of the difference between a small diameter hose and a large diameter hose. The range of ohms goes from zero to infinity. Zero ohms is when it's real easy for the electricity to flow. A reading of infinity is when there is no path for the electricity to go through (a closed valve).
continuity:The state or quality of being continuous.
An uninterrupted succession or flow; a coherent whole.(or a closed circuit)
I hate it when I make a mistake like that. :x
I've got an ohmmeter, atleast i think i do. I found it around the house. It's yellow and dusty...
I don't know if it's what I need, or if it has a high enough ratting.
Let me know.
Thanks,
Timothy
Quote from: KerryResistance values for ignition coils:
Primary windings = 3.0 to 6.0 ohms
Secondary windings = 18,000 to 30,000 ohms
And for good measure, the pulse generator coils in the wiring diagram should register 250 to 420 ohms.
It should work just fine with what you need to find out, test it on the ohm setting and see what readings you get.
Ahhh, so you have an ANALOG meter (as opposed to digital). That's OK - it will work.
When you measure resistance with an analog meter, you usually have to "zero it out" first. Pick your resistance range (say, x1K), touch the 2 meter leads to each other, and adjust a knob or a wheel until the needle rests on 0. On my meter, 0 IS all the way to the right, which is the opposite of the voltage and amperage measurements.
Once the needle is zero'd, touch the leads to the test points. Reading the needle position can be confusing, but just look for a "continuum line" that makes sense. On my analog meter the line for Ohms is green, and all of the ranges use the same line. You may need to multiply your result by some factor of 10 to get the actual result.
For example, on the x1K range you can probably read the value directly. 1k = 1,000 ohms, 200 = 200 ohms, etc. If you switch to a x10K range (don't forget to re-zero the needle), then multiply the reading by 10.
Make sense?
Also make sure the primary leads are disconnected from the coil before testing it.
BTW, I couldn't get the link to the picture of your multimeter to work. I had to go the long way around:
* Go to http://www.awsperry.com/
* Click on the Sperry logo
* Click on the "Products" position of the selector dial
* Click the "Analog multimeters" link
* Click the "SP-5A" link[/list:u]I may have to take back what I said about reading the value directly. It looks like your meter only has 2 resistance scales: one that goes from 0 to 1,000,000 ohms, and one that goes from 0 to 5,000 ohms. You'll have to adjust my decription accordingly.
Looks like I'll have to preform a retest.
This time with the ohmmeter zeroed out, and also with the coil disconnected. I'm also going to have to wait until tomorrow when it's bright enough outside.
Thanks guys.
Timothy
I tried doing the test blindly. I got results on the primary by using the 200 mark, and I used 200k for the secondary test.
The test results check out okay too.
On the left side for primary I got 4.8
On the right side for primary I got 4.7
Left side secondary was 25.6
Right side secondary was 25.5
I figured that I needed to add two decimals so it was 25,600 and 25,500
If I preformed the test correctly, then the coils check out okay. So that just means that the problem is somewhere else on the bike. What other tests should I perform, and how?
Thanks,
Timothy
I'm not sure what's going on. I drove the bike around my neighborhood, and it's still up to the same old tricks. The bike IS getting power to the left side. I've checked to see if the plug is sparking, and I can feel the electric current in my hand when I hold the wire and touch a metal part of the bike. But when I plug or un plug it the bike sounds the same and the RPMs stay the same. Unless it's at high RPMs like 4k. If the bike is at a constant 1.5 and i unplug the left side nothing happens. But when I do this to the right side, the bike will shut off. ONLY AT LOW RPMs
If I unplug the left side at high rpms they will drop, but eventually regain to about to around 3500. The right side won't. It will stay low. 1000-1300 rpm or so.
I'm stumped. I have no idea what causing this. And I've checked the coils. They both seem the same.
Any words of advice?
Thanks,
Timothy
Sorry Timothy, I didn't even get up until 10:15 Mountain today!
That's great news about your coils. Next is to check the signal generator(s) and the related wiring. I could type it all out again, but if you wouldn't mind...could you refer back to my second post in this thread? The one where I supplied a wiring diagram and a couple of links to older threads?
I think both threads tell you what you need to know, but the second one has pictures of the connectors I'm talking about. In my case, one of the connectors was corroded, which is almost certainly NOT the problem on your bike.
The general idea is to check for continuity to (and through) the connectors, and for the right resistance values for each of the signal generators. If you get acceptable resistance figures up at the very first (3-wire) connector, you're done. If not, you have to move down the wires one connector at a time. If you suspect a break in one of the wires or connectors, set your ohmmeter to the lowest range and touch your test leads to either end of the part. You should get a reading of zero, or darn close.
Let me know if you need clarification on anything.
So you're saying I should start from the left coil and just follow the wires back to the source? Or start from the signal generators? If so, where are they located? And which setting should I use for the ohmmeter? There are a lot to choose from.
Thanks
Timothy
Okay I found a black box underneath my seat. There were four wires that went to it. Green/white Green/yellow then Black/white Solid brown. I tested them with the 200k on the omega setting.
I got a signal back on each wire except the green/yellow one. I don't know what this means, or where to go from here
Choose the lowest ohmmeter setting that is greater than the expected resistance value.
(http://www.bbburma.net/Scans/Haynes_IgnitionWiring_WithSteps.jpg)
From my post in the first thread:
Quote from: Kerry2) Fairly close to the battery, on the negative terminal side, is a 3-wire connector. Pop it open and perform a continuity test (or resistance check) on the connector half that is NOT attached to the wiring harness. You should have a resistance value of 240-420 ohms between the center wire and each of the outer wires. (These wires go to the signal generator coils, which are behind the right side engine cover with the ignition advancer.)
Since you're expecting between 240 and 420 ohms, set the ohmmeter to the 2000 range. If you get values close to the expected ones, you'll be able to read them directly. Like, say, "354". If there is an open circuit you'll get some kind of "too high to display" indication on the meter, because the resistance will be INFINITY, which is definitely higher than 2000.
From my post in the second thread:
Quote from: KerryFigure out which half of the connector is NOT attached to the wiring harness. The wires exiting from this half eventually go to the signal generator coils (after passing through the corroded, black 4-wire connector to the lower left of center in the photo).
With the correct half of the 3-wire connector in hand, take a look at the 3 attached wires. The black one (in the center, I think) is common to both signal generator coil circuits. The other wires belong to one circuit or the other.
Job 1 is to measure the resistance between the black wire and one of the other ones. If you get infinite resistance (like I did) there is an open circuit somewhere along the line. If you get NO resistance, something is shorted out. If I remember right, the correct reading is somewhere between 280 and 420 ohms. (See your manual.)
After finding that I had TWO open circuits, I checked each length of wire to make sure that each wire and connection was good. I couldn't get that blasted black connector apart, so I had to touch one test probe to the (barely reachable) crimper where each wire enters the connector. I touched the other probe to the other end of the wire in the 3-position connector I've been talking about. (You're looking for NO resistance between the two ends of each wire segment.)
In my case, all 3 wires checked out fine. Next I wanted to make sure I didn't have a problem in the black connector. Since I couldn't get the black connector apart, I touched the two probes to the crimpers on the "input" and "output" sides of the box. And what do you know - I had NO continuity (infinite resitance) on the black wire (the common one, remember?)
EDIT: Changed link from sisna.com to bbburma.net
Once I find the wire how do I go about removing it, and replacing it?
I'm not getting a reading on a black and yellow wire.
Thanks,
Timothy
Black-and-yellow? Just curious why you're checking that one. It has nothing to do with the signal generator coils, but it apparently DOES have something to do with the ignition system in general.
Still, if the wire is broken it should definitely be replaced.
Just to be sure, are you saying that you get an INFINITY resistance reading between the two ends of the black-and-yellow wire? If that's not right, what do you mean by "I'm not getting a reading" on that wire?
Did you begin with the 3-wire connector that's marked "Start Here" in my diagram? Your first step is to open that connector and measure the resistance (on the half of the connector NOT hooked to the wiring harness) between:
1) The Black wire and the Brown wire, and
2) The Black wire and the Green/white wire.
These are the readings that should be between 240 and 420. If either one is INFINITY, start checking the wire segments and connectors along that wire pair as they descend down the left side of the bike and across to the signal generator area.
==================================
Before replacing (or cutting) ANYTHING, make SURE you know which part is bad.
If you check a single length of wire (with no connectors in between or on either end) and you get an infinity resistance reading, then cut the wire in half and test each half. Leave the good half (zero resistance half) alone, and keep snipping a bit off of the bad half until you get zero resistance between its ends. Hopefully you have enough wire left that you can strip the dangling ends and attach a "quick connector" to each one. Now take a short length of good wire, attach matching "quick connectors", and insert the new length of wire into the circuit.
If your original measurement included connectors, you'll need to check for continuity (zero resistance) through each of the connectors as well as each of the wire segments. If you find a bad connector, and can't fix the problem by cleaning it somehow, then you have two choices:
1) Cut the wires where they enter and exit the bad connection point. Introduce "quick connectors" and a new length of wire to bypass the original connector.
2) Replace the original connector entirely by cutting EVERY wire that enters and exits it, and introduce a whole set of "quick connectors". If you're lucky, you will have enough wire that you won't need extra wire segments - just a pair of "quick connectors" for each existing wire.
I actually went both routes. Bypassing a corroded connection (in my 4-wire connector) for my black wire got the bike running. Later on I cut out the whole 4-wire connector and replaced it with individual "quick connector" pairs. They are the pink thingies in the photo below:
(http://www.bbburma.net/MiscFotos/100_0272_CorrodedConnectorBypassed.jpg)
EDIT: Changed link from sisna.com to bbburma.net
Okay for the three wire connector, mines clear, well I tested them all and got very high results. I had the ohmmeter set on 2000, and i got around 18000ohm.
And I tested the small black connector and I got 370, 700, and then two wires didn't test.
My wire are a mess too. I think the last guy that owned the bike did his own work, but he didn't really take quite as much time and care in the bike. He crashed it a few times too.
Why am I getting such high readings?
We need to be clear: how did you get an 18,000 ohm reading on a 2000 ohm range setting? BTW, if you really ARE getting 18,000 ohms that's an open circuit (infinite resistance) for our purposes. Oh, and if you're touching the test leads to 2 wires that aren't connected to anything on their other ends, this is what you should get.
Perhaps it would be beneficial to use a checklist for your resistance readings. It would sure help ME a lot! (Set the meter to 2000, and tell me if you take a reading at a different setting.)
3-wire connector
MAKE SURE you're taking the reading on the half of the connector that's attached to the wires that go DOWN to the 4-wire connector, and not back UP to the wiring harness!
Between Black/blue & Brown: _____ ohms (Should be 240-420)
Between Black/blue & Green/White: _____ ohms (Should be 240-420)
*** If you got the expected values for both wire pairs,
STOP HERE -- the test result is NEGATIVE.
*** (No problem with the wires or connections.) Otherwise, keep going....
Wires between the 3-wire connector and the 4-wire connector
Touch your test leads to the little metal crimpers where the wires attach to the connectors.
Black/blue wire: _____ ohms (Should be near 0)
Brown wire: _____ohms (Should be near 0)
Green/white wire: _____ ohms (Should be near 0)
Between input and output points on (snapped together) 4-wire connector
Touch your test leads to the little metal crimpers where the wires attach to the connector.
Black/blue wire: _____ ohms (Should be near 0)
Brown wire: _____ohms (Should be near 0)
Green/white wire: _____ ohms (Should be near 0)
Between different wires on the (popped apart) 4-wire connector
MAKE SURE you're taking the reading on the half of the connector that's attached to the wires that go DOWN to the signal generator coils, and not back UP to the 3-wire connector!
Between Black/blue & Brown: _____ ohms (Should be 240-420)
Between Black/blue & Green/White: _____ ohms (Should be 240-420)
Outstanding writeup Kerry. I take my hat off to you. :thumb: :)
Kerry's great. Always helpful and consise. Kudos!!
Thanks guys - that's all the payback I need. Well, that and a SOLUTION to Timothy's problem. My pride's at stake!
Just so you know, I won't be back on until LATE tomorrow night, or sometime Monday morning.
I know I said I wouldn't be back on tonight, but "just one more"....
Carbs are complex things. Your problem may turn out to be fuel-related in the end, but we're so close now - let's finish the electrical side of things.
As I wrote in the "old" threads ... the whole time I was trying to diagnose my problem I got (what I thought was) a good spark from both plugs. When I finally found that the Black/blue wire connection was bad, I was floored! That wire is common to both of the signal generator circuits, which should have meant that NO signals were getting through to the ignition coils. How was I getting a spark at all?
I don't know. But when I fixed that one connection ... VROOM!
My point? Getting a spark doesn't necessarily equal getting a GOOD spark or a CORRECTLY-TIMED spark. Let's work this through to the end.
OK. You don't want to take readings on wires coming from the "black box" - Suzuki hasn't published any resistance or other values that you could use to test that unit. And it's not serviceable - if it's defective (which there's apparently no way to determine :guns: ) you have to replace it.
But never mind that "black box". On to the rest of your post.
If you took the other readings where I think you did, you're DONE! Just to make sure, you said
Quote from: Vid381I also tested the female end (the ones leading away from the black box)
These 3 wires go to the black 4-wire connector, right? The one that was corroded on my bike, and that I replaced with the 4 pink quick-connectors?
If we're talking about the same wires, then you've just tested your signal generator coils and found acceptable resistance values; 370 is definitely between 240 and 420.
Whew! :thumb:
Unfortunately, since your signal generator coil circuits (and ignition coils) appear to be OK, we still don't know what's causing the bike to act up. Time to start over and think it through some more..... :x
Okay the clear three wire one checked out okay. The black four wire one didn't check out okay. All the wires except the green and yellow one had a reading of 350-380. I know that the green/yellow one goes down to the right side of the bike where the Suzuki faceplate is. When I unscrewed that plate the wire was the only one that had a screw that allowed me to remove the wire. All the other wires were firmly soldered in place. (If this is indeed the bad wire, and I was able to unscrew it while the bike was on with no problem) then how do I go about finding the bad link? The wire is in a black tube throughout the entire bike.
-Timothy
Since you got the correct readings at the 3-wire connector, you know that the rest of the connections down through the 4-wire connector and to the signal generator coils are good (for those 3 wires).
If you look back at the wiring diagram, you'll see that the green-yellow wire goes to the Oil pressure switch, and has nothing to do with the signal generator coils. Suzuki just found it convenient to run that wire through the same 4-wire connector as the others.
Like I said - you're done with the electrical testing. Time to look elsewhere. :(
You need to turn the screw between the carbs. It's part #39 in this BikeBandit diagram:
http://www.bikebandit.com/partsbandit/showschematic.asp?dept_id=723027
Is this a private troubleshooting session or can anybody join?
A very frequent cause of spark plug distress is cracked spark plug leads, particularly on older bikes. If an old motorcycle sits outside for long periods of time the sun light falling on one side of the bike will cause 'weather checking' on that lead.
Its easy to test if this is your problem. Start your motorcycle at night in a the darkest place you can find (cover the head light or disable it) and then look for little blue sparks jumping from the ignition lead to the motorcycle frame or engine block. As you seem to enjoy the little rise you get from the spark voltage you can also use your had to find electical 'leaks' in the spark plug leads.
By the way the 'spark plug leads' are the thick black wires going from the coil to the spark plug. Just another idea.
Welcome to the party! Feel free!
Thanks for the input.
I had an identical problem when I bought my used '93' GS. The bike ran so rich at low throttle that it was hard to get it off of a standing stop without a lot of throttle milking. One cylinder kept carbon fouling its plug.
When I disassembled the carburetor on the offending cylinder I discovered that the spring seat (called a 'ring' in the parts manual) for the jet needle was missing. Nothing holds the 'ring' in place except the spring so that means that the 'ring' falls on the floor as soon as the carb is dissassembled. When I installed a new 'ring' the worked flawlessly ever-after. That was 3500 miles and 4 months ago.
If the 'ring' is missing the spring cannot hold the jet needle in place so that the needle rises during low power settings allowing more fuel into the cylinder. At higher power settings the jet needle is pulled up by the diaphram so that the absence of the 'ring' is not as noticable.
The Suzuki p/n for the 'ring' is 481809-001, however, I wuld advise disassembling the carburetor and checking before you order. They are about $3.00 each. Hope this helps.
I will have to check for that "ring." Since I don't know what it looks like is there anyway you would be able to give a picture of it? Maybe this link will have the part on it. If it's what i'm thinking it is, than it's part #21 on bikebandit. This "ring" is what holds part #21 on the float correct? If it's not part #21 will you be able to tell me the part number so I can give a looksee on my next visit to carb-land.
http://www.bikebandit.com/partsbandit/showschematic.asp?dept_id=723027
The dealership will more than likely change me about $9 for it. They're not that nice when it comes to prices.
You Rock!!
Thanks for the help
-Timothy
You are looking too deep into the carburetor. To access the 'ring' I am speaking of (#3 on the drawing) all you need to do is remove the gas tank, and remove the top cover (6) from the carburetor.
Lift out the spring (5) and look on top of the the jet needle (18). The 'ring' (3) is a small plastic collar that sits on top of a clip (4) around the jet needle( 18). The 'ring' (3) is only held in by the spring (5) so that it may stick to the spring and come out with it. It is very very easy to loose. Be careful.
The 'ring' (3) is the spring seat that provides the pressure point for the spring (5) to push down on the jet needle (18). Without it the spring (5) passes uselessly around the jet needle (18) and your mixture control goes to H*ll.
If this is not your problem make sure you don't make it a problem. Be sure the 'ring' (3) is properly installed when you reassemble the carburetor.
I don't know why but I was trying to type the number 'eighteen' to reference the jet needle, but it came out as a 1 and a smilie face.
Quote from: Von VesterI don't know why but I was trying to type the number 'eighteen' to reference the jet needle, but it came out as a 1 and a smilie face.
The same thing happens to me when I number list items using a digit followed by a right paren. The system interprets
8)as a goggle-eyed smiley face: 8)
Hey, check it out! Right below the text edit box in the Reply screen is a checkbox labeled "Disable Smilies in this post". I learn something new every day!