I am in the process of replacing the steering head bearings on my 93 and have a question about the outer races. I got the old ones out at the expense of my long Craftsman flat heads. I used a hammer on a flat piece of wood to try to get the new outer race for the upper bearing and quickly found it wasn't going anywhere. I used the drawbar method afterwards and got the bottom in fine. The top race is still sticking out by a millimeter or two and refuses to move any more. Here are some pics of it.
The upper
(http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/4stringsrule/Brgs/0208011629b-1.jpg)
(http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/4stringsrule/Brgs/0208011632a-1.jpg)
I can't remember if the original race was the same way because I took apart the whole front end 2 months ago. Now I have cranked on the thing to try get it further in. I didn't have access to threaded rod so I got two 3/8 inch bolts that were partially threaded one 7" and one 8". I also heard people saying the washers they used to get the bolt and nut to press the races in would bend so I got some heavy duty steel hinges and cut the pins out to remove the other side of the hinge.
(http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/4stringsrule/Brgs/0208011630a-1.jpg)
(http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/4stringsrule/Brgs/0208011630-1.jpg)
In the next set of pictures you can see that I tightened them so much trying to budge the top race that they turned into a cone shape. I had a friend helping to hold the other side of the bolt with another wrench. I was putting so much force on the bolt I was using the frame to get more leverage.
(http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/4stringsrule/Brgs/0208011631-1.jpg)
I used some previous posts on the subject for guidance. In one informative post on the subject, member Sledge says that you can just heat the bottom inner race that goes on the stem and it will just slip on. It did not go so smoothly when I attempted so I used a hammer and a foot of copper pipe from the hardware store.
(http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/4stringsrule/Brgs/0208011628-1.jpg)
(http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/4stringsrule/Brgs/0208011628a-1.jpg)
(http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/4stringsrule/Brgs/0208011629a-1.jpg)
You can see by the top of the pipe that it was definitely not a smooth process...
(http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/4stringsrule/Brgs/0208011629-1.jpg)
My question is should I crank on that top race harder to see if it will go in further?
Here is the link to the album and the full size pics.
http://s1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/4stringsrule/Brgs/ (http://s1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/4stringsrule/Brgs/)
something tells me that beating bearings with a hammer like this ----> :technical: is a bad idea..
Looking at the 2nd pic I would say the top race is on the piss, it looks to be sticking up on the RH side. Its not gone in square and dug in. Knock it out throw it away and start again with a new bearing. When its out have a close look at the housing, chances are the sides will need a bit of a polish with some emery cloth where it has dug in and make sure there is no debris on the shoulder that might hold the race off........How is the bottom one?
The bearings are standard items so dont pay silly money, get em from any bearing supplier for peanuts. ISO codes are 32005X and 32006X
I usually heat up the stem,neck with MAPP or Propane, and then have the bearings/races in the freezer overnight. It's usually enough to get the job done.
use a bigger hammer and seat the race
I always use the old race as a drift
Howdo Kenny? :icon_eek:
Quote from: scottychop on February 08, 2011, 06:06:15 PM
I usually heat up the stem,neck with MAPP or Propane, and then have the bearings/races in the freezer overnight. It's usually enough to get the job done.
Just want to clarify- the stem doesn't get heated up. It goes in the freezer too.
Scotty, did you sell that 450 yet? I would have a hard time parting ways with it.....
if it was a high speed roller brg..... i'd have concern
it rotates ....what.....40-50 degrees of one rotation
the biggest problem with steering head brgs is lack of lube and notchy wear spots due to.....lack of lube
Quote from: werase643 on February 08, 2011, 06:10:57 PM
use a bigger hammer and seat the race
I always use the old race as a drift
Drift ... no no no :nono: :nono: :nono: ... drift is a steel rod you put in @ an angle to catch the edge of the race.
The old race welded to a set of plates is the buddha special tool that I have loaned out to suckers ... I mean gstwinners.
I also have wheel bearing seating tools that are the same thing but with a centering peg.
BTW better bikes - like my sv1000 has a good design in the neck to allow easy removal of the race. They have 2 spots where the frame has a nice depression just @ the race seating area, it allows a rod to fit there nice and you hammer away.
Anyway with a GS you just have to grind a drift into a nice wedge shape and hope to catch the race. It does work. I actually keep the drift in place and hammer it sideways first so it can cut through and dig in if there was any dirt etc. Then I keep the pressure on it sideways making it stay where its dug in.
Cool.
Buddha.
The lower race is in perfect. I agree that this bearing isn't high speed or anything but with it protruding up, I worry about keeping water out.
I see what Sledge noted, the top one is started chicken-eyed. Remove that race clean up any damage to the tube or seat and try another bearing. Getting started straight is important.
prs
The pic makes it look like it's cockeyed but it doesn't look or feel like it in person.
I'm sorry, I just don't get it, here you have two huge fully greased roller bearing that do nothing but support the front end and do nothing but swing back and forth, and after a few years and several thousand miles of doing practically nothing they need to be replaced and or repacked. On the other hand you have wheel bearings that in addition to supporting enormous loads and shocks are also subject to spinning constantly for a hundred thousand miles or more under these loads with little of no attention, maintenance, or additional lubrication. Nothing on the bike undergoes more stress and pressure with less attention than wheel bearings---so what's up with these fricking head bearings? The damned things should last for a hundred years.
Quote from: 4strings on February 09, 2011, 12:15:16 PM
The lower race is in perfect. I agree that this bearing isn't high speed or anything but with it protruding up, I worry about keeping water out.
If it is protruding and/or not square in the housing the inner and outer races will not sit together correctly and the upper and lower bearings will not be in alignment............It will cause all sorts of problems. It doesnt look right from the picture and you need to be 100% sure its correct before you carry on.......or you will be pulling it all back down again.
Quote from: ojstinson on February 09, 2011, 03:53:57 PM
I'm sorry, I just don't get it, here you have two huge fully greased roller bearing that do nothing but support the front end and do nothing but swing back and forth, and after a few years and several thousand miles of doing practically nothing they need to be replaced and or repacked. On the other hand you have wheel bearings that in addition to supporting enormous loads and shocks are also subject to spinning constantly for a hundred thousand miles or more under these loads with little of no attention, maintenance, or additional lubrication. Nothing on the bike undergoes more stress and pressure with less attention than wheel bearings---so what's up with these fricking head bearings? The damned things should last for a hundred years.
Well the wheel bearings take a different type of load, are better sealed from the elements and in effect are also made better. If you ever lost a wheel bearing - and I have, in reality I've lost more wheel bearings than neck bearings ... we change neck bearings when changing FE's, and even so, sometimes we reuse it - anyway, replacement wheel bearings are actually better than the original. Fully sealed ones. Last forever.
Cool.
Buddha.
Changed a lot of tapered roller wheel brgs in cars decades ago but never changed tapered roller steering head brgs. Had to change the bicycle type head ball bearings in 2 of my 4 old Hondas but would not expect failure on the tapered roller head brgs in my GS500 bikes. Tapered head brg failure is due to no grease but not really a lack of grease in there. On older bikes that have sat a lot the grease dries out and gets hard and no longer lubricates the wear surfaces and they become notchy due to their very limited rotation. Use your GS at least a few thousand miles a year from the time it's new and they won't fail.
werase643 is on the right track here, use the old bearing race to drive in the new. You can beat on it all day with a piece of wood between the brg race and hammer once it's cocked like that and never move it, gotta hit it hard steel on steel to square it away and seat it. Use the old race and turn it the same way the new one goes in so the wide side of it is inward and you can reach in thru the tube and tap it back out if it gets stuck in the bore behind the new one. Hit the high side until it's squared away then drive it in until it's seated by tapping all around the race. You'll hear the difference in sound with steel on steel when the new bearing race is seated.
I put 310k miles total on my first 5 bikes which includes 80k miles on my 97 GS500 and never replaced a wheel bearing. Put 80-100k miles on 2 of the 4 Hondas. Son JP put another 30-40k miles on the old 97 GS and still no wheel brg failures. Now on my current 02 GS500 with about 85k miles and counting I have already replaced all the wheel bearings. On a tire change a couple years ago they pulled out the cush drive to balance the tire and lost that spacer that goes between the left wheel brg and the cush drive brg causing the wheel bearing to fail. I put in a new pair of oem single seal pre greased rear wheel bearings. Last winter one of my front wheel bearings failed making the wheel loose on the shaft and I replaced the front pair with a pair of those real cheap double blue seal Chinese brgs everyone is selling now. Guess I'm conducting a comparo test of the relatively expensive oem brgs compared to the cheapo Chinese brgs now? :icon_lol:
Thanks for the info. I think I'm going to get that race out, make sure the housing is OK , then put in a new one the way GSJack said. This makes me want to fill the whole steerer tube w/ grease when the stem is in so I will never have to worry about it again :mad:. A little too excessive I know.
Quote from: gsJack on February 10, 2011, 07:37:34 AM
Last winter one of my front wheel bearings failed making the wheel loose on the shaft and I replaced the front pair with a pair of those real cheap double blue seal Chinese brgs everyone is selling now. Guess I'm conducting a comparo test of the relatively expensive oem brgs compared to the cheapo Chinese brgs now? :icon_lol:
You sure the suzuki bearings are not the same chinese ones with 1 seal instead of 2 :D.
Timken makes bearings in the lincolnton plant - 30 miles from me. There is a guy that works there that frequents the junkyard I go to. He drops off a bunch of them and I also have got em from him. American made timken. Not that its any better IMHO than chinese skf or what not.
Cool.
Buddha.
I think I fudged the brg install. I put the bearing on the stem but forgot to put the lower seal on first.
(http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/4stringsrule/Brgs/0211011906b.jpg)
I'm pretty sure it's impossible to get it on there now. I guess I'll be getting a whole new set and trying again. I found new plates to press the cups in that I really don't think will bend... If they do, I'm in trouble.
(http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/4stringsrule/Brgs/0211011906.jpg)
If anyone has some leftover bearings from other botched installs or such I'd love 'em.
Can't dip the lower triple in ice cold water and as the temperature differential makes the bearing loose, pull out the bearing with a bearing puller?
I'm not sure what kind of bearing puller I would need and it would likely be more expensive than another set of bearings.
Oh *&%# >:(.....anyway...... here is way to get it off without a puller, its worked for me few times but it needs a bit of practice
1) Break the cage and loose it.... along with the rollers.
2) Hold the stem upside on a piece of hard thick wood.
3) Heat the inner race evenly all around with a blowlamp or gas torch, avoid playing any heat on the stem itself.
4) After about 20 secs or so smack the stem down on the wood (so it wont damage the threads)......Keep the stem vertical as you smack it down, if you are lucky the race will have expanded enough to clear the journal and the shock will cause the race to drop off. If you are really lucky the race will drop off without needing a shock.
If it doesnt work first time let it cool and try again. The key is to get enough heat into the race to swell it so it looses the interference fit without letting any heat soak into the stem :thumb:
Quote from: 4strings on February 11, 2011, 09:00:56 PM
I think I fudged the brg install. I put the bearing on the stem but forgot to put the lower seal on first.
(http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/4stringsrule/Brgs/0211011906b.jpg)
I'm pretty sure it's impossible to get it on there now. I guess I'll be getting a whole new set and trying again. I found new plates to press the cups in that I really don't think will bend... If they do, I'm in trouble.
(http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/4stringsrule/Brgs/0211011906.jpg)
If anyone has some leftover bearings from other botched installs or such I'd love 'em.
Oh fudge. OK do this.
Take a can of compressed air.
Put the stem on a table and plug the hole in the stem with paper ~1/2 inch up from the bearing.
Turn the can upside down and spray away. Shake often but spray like the whole can in a few seconds. That should let you pretty much tap the top of the stem on a hard surface and have the bearing drop out.
Yea get some carb cleaner and spray that area clean. If its rather cold there - like under 75 degrees, heat the outside with a hair dryer thoroughly. If its a nice 100-125 degrees that should work like a charm.
It worked like a charm in my case but I had a aluminum stem. You may get it out ... or not. You dont have much to lose, except a can of air.
Cool.
Buddha.
Darn, I got antsy and there is a new set on the way here to replace the ones that went on without the seal cause I broke them getting it off. Thanks though, I'll be sure to try it the next time I redo the head brgs and forget to put the seal on first >:(.
Those big beefy plates worked like a charm. I had to countersink the new lower race with the old race a fair way in. I snapped the 3/8 bolt tightening it down so I figured it was in good. Then I actually measured the height of the upper race and the depth from the top to the shoulder and wouldn't ya know, the race is taller than the space it occupies so it sticks out. All I'm waiting on now is the new kit. What are anybody's thoughts on using outer races from the 1st kit and bearings and inner races from the 2nd kit since the races are already in?
Swapping inner and outer bearing races is not good practice in general, particularly if they are from different makes. Roller brgs are manufactured to very tight tolerances, the inners and outers are then placed in tolerance bands and matched up in the factory. However, given your situation and the fact the bearings are not going to be subject to high-speeds or loads I would be prepared to take the chance with mixing them and worry about it all if/when they fail.....In addition I would avoid letting water get anywhere near the headstock and given that the seal is missing dont even think about pressure washing :icon_eek: