The title says it all ;)
I have no idea why that happened. Battery is new. GEL type.
I recharged using automotive charger at the beginning of the week.
Bike sat outside for 7 hours in 45 degrees which is totally normal.
I am thinking if maybe I left the lights on :dunno_white: but if I did then after 7 hours it would not even probably turnover.
But it did turn over couple of times, then weird loud CRACK then click click. Disconnected front light, tired again, same story.
It behaved just like the battery was almost totally drained.
So I pushed her in 3rd gear, she started, rode to school making sure to keep revs over 4K when possible.
She started fine the same night after my class was over.
This makes very little sense. I will have to load test my battery. As voltage is fine. Alternator is fine (already checked)
Charged it overnight, will see what happens when I leave work today.
Moral: learn how to push start your bike!
The trick with pushing starter button while pushing the bike does not work with GS because you need clutch pulled in to energize the starter (release the clutch and there is no electricity flowing to starter) [at least that is what I think, I may be wrong though]
EDIT: modified title of the thread
Automotive chargers can be a little aggressive for a moto battery. How fast did you charge it?
always on 2 AMP, I do not want to fry my battery
Do you lock your steering when you park the bike? Turning it one notch further to the park position leaves the tail light only on and it's easy to miss seeing. Would leave battery dead in 7 hours. Everybody that rides does that at least once I think.
That's why I have a white LED inside the fairing connected to the running light. I'll see that when I turn the key too far.
On an "E", you could add an LED between the speedo and the tach.
Easy to tell at night but during daylight, too easy to turn key too far and not see the running lights on.
Yup, I played that game when I first got the bike...thought it was a bad battery...check the fluid levels in the battery (should be about 1/4" above the plates), if it is low use distilled water to fill it...reg tap water will kill the batter sooner...charged mine and all was fine...I only figured out what I did a month or so later...saw the light on when I parked it in the evening...WTF?? then had an "ah-ha" moment and figured it out...not the greatest design...
Later.
Ive always wandered what the point of this feature is? I have never been able think of a situation in which I want my steering locked and my tail light on. Does anyone use this? intentially I mean.
Quote from: gregvhen on March 11, 2011, 05:56:50 PM
Ive always wandered what the point of this feature is? I have never been able think of a situation in which I want my steering locked and my tail light on. Does anyone use this? intentially I mean.
Yep... I've used it on occasions when I'm briefly parking the bike in places that are dimly lit (because of lack of other spots or for convenience) and I don't want somebody running over the thing. On the F model it lights up the stop light and the little bulb inside the headlight. Not sure if that was a custom job or not.
Aussie GS's don't have this feature. I have always wondered about the practicality of the park function as I have it on my Ducati and have almost walked away from it with it left on. Annoying if you ask me.
I always check to make sure I did not leave lights on.
I have GEL battery so no issue with fluid levels.
Today she started fine, on a first turn (battery charged overnight)
I came back home and decided to test load a battery anyways. It is bad.
Tool says: connect to battery, read after 10 seconds. So I did.
After 10 seconds it was still in the green field but dropping quickly, after about 13 seconds it was in yellow field, after about 20 seconds it was very close to red.
Battery was charged yesterday, voltage showed 12.5 when I got home.
I thought: it can't be true, tool must be broken or something, so I took my old battery (wet type) that has been sitting in the closet for past 3 months, checked voltage, 12.0, hooked to the load test tool, 10 seconds later pointer is in the middle of green field, 20 seconds later, same thing. Good as new...
For now I put the old battery back in the bike, and I am charging it now.
I am super mad because I got this GEL battery 3 months ago. I paid over 70 bucks for it...
I already contacted seller. I asked for the battery to be exchanged.
Thanks for all input and keep your fingers crossed that they will exchange my battery
EDIT: tool used: (very similar or the same as this)
(http://i00.i.aliimg.com/photo/v0/219709362/125AMP_Battery_Load_Tester.jpg)
Quote from: gregvhen on March 11, 2011, 05:56:50 PM
Ive always wandered what the point of this feature is? I have never been able think of a situation in which I want my steering locked and my tail light on. Does anyone use this? intentially I mean.
I'd love to have this feature on my bike, I don't have a working parklight, and my steering lock was broken before I bought the bike.
I have a laneway behind my house I go down to get into my garage. I have to open the garage door from the inside, so I park the bike in the laneway, let myself in then open the garage door so I can bring the bike in. The lane is dark, narrow and used by a lot of delivery trucks, so I have to make a choice. Do I take the keys out of the bike and leave it secured, but invisible to traffic? Or do I leave the keys in it for the 30 seconds it takes me to get inside and open the garage door and risk someone riding off with it?
Yeah I'd love to be able to lock the steering but keep the bike nice and visible, that's a really handy feature. I wish I had it.
Police bikes have this feature where you can leave them running in neutral, then take the key out, but if someone tries to put the bike in gear it will stop. This allows them to leave it running to power their flashing lights and radio without having to worry about some smartass taking it for a joyride.
arrrrrrrrrrrr, :confused: :confused:
I don't get it...
So continuing the story from my previous post...
Today in the morning I checked the charger, says: FULL. I checked the battery voltage 12.9. Good.
I put the seat back on, turn key to on, pull clutch, push start button, it barely turns over once, twice, BANG, click click. I think what the hell... I try second time again barely turns over but eventually starts.
I am at school now and I am 99% sure I will have to push start the bike after my classes are over.
I am lost. Why it barely turns over when the battery is full? Bike seats in heated garage, about 60 degrees in there. Battery fully charged and load tested yesterday.
What else should I check?
EDIT: when push starting my bike I noticed one thing and I am not sure if this is normal or not: in first gear with clutch disengaged (lever pulled in toward the handle all the way) I was barely able to push the bike, in second gear I could push it but it was hard,
Is it normal? I do not have any gear changing issues so I think yes, but this battery/starting problems make me paranoid...
Quote from: kml.krk on March 12, 2011, 06:59:58 AM
arrrrrrrrrrrr, :confused: :confused:
I don't get it...
So continuing the story from my previous post...
Today in the morning I checked the charger, says: FULL. I checked the battery voltage 12.9. Good.
I put the seat back on, turn key to on, pull clutch, push start button, it barely turns over once, twice, BANG, click click. I think what the hell... I try second time again barely turns over but eventually starts.
I am at school now and I am 99% sure I will have to push start the bike after my classes are over.
I am lost. Why it barely turns over when the battery is full? Bike seats in heated garage, about 60 degrees in there. Battery fully charged and load tested yesterday.
What else should I check?
EDIT: when push starting my bike I noticed one thing and I am not sure if this is normal or not: in first gear with clutch disengaged (lever pulled in toward the handle all the way) I was barely able to push the bike, in second gear I could push it but it was hard,
Is it normal? I do not have any gear changing issues so I think yes, but this battery/starting problems make me paranoid...
Relax. Nothing you can't easily cure here. Your clutch is dragging. Adjust the slack out of your clutch cable so it disengages all the way. It adjusts at both ends if you don't have enough adjustment at the handlebar. As for the battery, my father once bought a brand new battery that went dead overnight. It happens. Make sure your battery lugs are clean or everything I said about the battery goes out the window. You need another new battery and a cable adjustment at most. You may only need to clean the battery connections and adjust the cable. Patience is a virtue, young man.
thanks bill.
I will adjust the clutch.
What I am worried about is this noise that is present more and more often, but ONLY during starting.
It sounds like two hammers smacked into each other.
I've had weak battery issues before (due to short commute), but this noise is new to me and it worries me.
I don't have much time this semester but I will also inspect valve clearance just to make sure it's OK.
Last time I checked valves was at 2000 miles, now I am at over 5000. Theoretically they should be fine but it wouldn't hurt to check anyways.
Could it be the starter motor? Almost sounds like an alignment issue...could be a solenoid not fully engagine...I would check the connections there...I'm just making guesses here though...
Good Luck!!
Later.
Could this happen just like that with no real reason? It was fine a week or 2 ago...
Tomorrow I will try starting using car battery. If it starts smothly it will mean that i just need a new battery.
Could too tight or too loose valves cause that?
Could sticking float in carb cause that?
I am trying to eliminate everything NOT causing the issue.
No, I don't think so...if it was valves or carbs it wouldn't run right once you got it started...those things would be and issue reguardless...the sound you are describing sounds like a mechanical issue, and the starter tooth mesh or a solenoid problem makes the most sense to me...
Even clutch drag shouldn't cause you any issue with starting if you are in neutral...are you now having the problem with the old battery that held it's charge all through winter?
Later.
BTW, being Hard to push the bike while it is in gear is Normal for the GS. No need to start chasing your tail trying to fix that as well.
Quick question... how many wires are you reconnecting on each side of the battery - got a photo of the connection even?
Michael
Quote from: madjak30 on March 12, 2011, 11:01:52 PM
are you now having the problem with the old battery that held it's charge all through winter?
I put that old battery in the bike on Friday night, charged overnight and like I described earlier bike barely started on Saturday morning.
After school on Saturday it started OK (felt like battery had plenty of starting power) but there was this noise of banging metal
Next ride is tomorrow.
If this is a starter issue then what would be my best action? Can it be fixed or I need a new one? How difficult is it to replace? Is it expensive?
thanks!
Quote from: mister on March 13, 2011, 11:32:15 AM
BTW, being Hard to push the bike while it is in gear is Normal for the GS. No need to start chasing your tail trying to fix that as well.
Quick question... how many wires are you reconnecting on each side of the battery - got a photo of the connection even?
Michael
I am not quite sure if I get your question. How many wires are there? :dunno_white:
I thought there are two, one connects to + and the other to - on the battery...
Have you tried jumping the starter motor itself? Put the bike on the center stand, take off the starter motor cover, and pull back the little rubber boot on the wire. That's where the positive lead is. And to make the motor spin easier for testing purposes, remove the sparkplugs from the bike (don't unscrew them and leave them dangling in the plug wires). Leave the ignition switch off and use a jumper cable on the starter. You should hear any noises very easily this way.
Quote from: Big Rich on March 13, 2011, 06:32:47 PM
Have you tried jumping the starter motor itself?
I haven't tried pretty much anything yet. But it sounds like a good idea. As soon as I have some spare time, which will be this Saturday, the earliest, I will try what you mentioned.
I was just working out in my garage and decided to see if bike starts normally. It did. No issues at all. It fired up at second or third turn of the motor.
There were no noises or anything unusual.
The problem seems to be totally inconsistent. Once is starts perfectly, the other time it barely turns over or produces this metallic noise. Weather, temperature, humidity seem to have NOTHING to do with it (at first I thought the problem was with cold temperature starting but apparently is not as it is not cold anymore)
if you have any other ideas I am all ears!
Quote from: kml.krk on March 13, 2011, 04:27:02 PM
Quote from: mister on March 13, 2011, 11:32:15 AM
BTW, being Hard to push the bike while it is in gear is Normal for the GS. No need to start chasing your tail trying to fix that as well.
Quick question... how many wires are you reconnecting on each side of the battery - got a photo of the connection even?
Michael
I am not quite sure if I get your question. How many wires are there? :dunno_white:
I thought there are two, one connects to + and the other to - on the battery...
TWO wires to the negative...
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_AYmU9ozxu_o/TX2771jPLXI/AAAAAAAAAlg/9xfVofIywX0/BatteryConnectionGS500.jpg)
Michael
I will check but unless the wire snapped it should be just the ways it was from the factory.
I didn't touch or modify those wires.
Thanks for clarifying that for me.
BTW: I cleaned the connections to the battery yesterday. Bike started quite OK this morning (no noises but a tiny bit of hesitation from starter, which sounds like it is spinning OK, then backs off and spins again)
I wish I had more time in the mornings so I could record the video with sounds of my bike starting.
Would it be helpful? If you say that it definitely would help then maybe I will wake up 30 mins earlier and do it.
UPDATE: bike hesitated to start after school. Fortunately battery provided enough juice for lots of cranking.
On first try bike did not want to fire up (it turned over fine about 6-8 times)
It's interesting that it didn't start after so many turns :dunno_white:
After about 30 seconds I tried again and on 2nd or 3rd turn it produced this stupid metallic sound then about two more turns and it finally started.
I don't even have time to properly troubleshoot it. All I can do at this point is to read your comments and hope for some enlightening...
hey, it's me again:
I recorded a sound of the starting noise!
put the headphones on to get more accurate sound (the recording is done with cell phone sitting on the tank)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0VnZ7k99mY
All suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Sounds more like a backfire than a mechanical clunk...not sure...maybe someone else will have a better idea...
Sounded like my GS when the battery was shagged in it. New battery and all was good.
i am not sure about your problem but i had some battery issues in past years and in your case, i would change battery... i think this battery is very weak... my last battery story---i charged it all night with optimate4 charger, fully charged diagnosis, then started the bike and had no power to start the engine more than one time...---
then i put an on/off light switch and a yusa yb4l-b(4ah) from my honda cub into gs... i run the bike in position light with day light and guess--no missfiring... excellent. BUT for SAFETY reasons, we need to have headlight ON ALWAYS-- i do not suggest this... :dunno_black: i also know that the 4ah battery will became useless very soon--i have that battery on bike for about 10 days---it's some kind of experiment... i will let you know how many days this battery was ok before become useless.
I bought new battery on December 4th, GEL type because I wanted more cold cranking amps for cold day.
Worked fine but died (it's going back) today, and I will get replacement in couple of weeks
I put in my old battery which was OK, and still is OK. I load tested it. It holds charge well and cranks fine during repeated tries to fire up the engine.
I am 99.9% sure it's not a battery, and I refuse to spend another 50-70 bucks on a new one.
Yesterday I let my father listen to the sound (recording, not the real thing) and he thinks it MAY be sticking valve.
I hope nothing blows up until Saturday, and then I will do investigation.
Do YOU think it may be sticking valve, and the noise that is produced is by piston hitting a valve? I am not sure how GS engine looks internally but I looked at other engines and technically it is possible.
Let me know please!
As far as I know, the GS engine is a non-interference engine...but I could be wrong...if it was a sticking valve though, you would probably have a very evil running engine...and once it starts all is good, right? I wonder if it is something as simple as a start button that isn't making good contact? Check your connections to the switch...for some reason I'm thinking bad connection somewhere...
Later.
I cant see the video from work, but the intermittent nature and not starting both put together can more than likely be caused by an intake or exhaust leak.
Check for those.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: kml.krk on March 12, 2011, 12:11:01 PM
What I am worried about is this noise that is present more and more often, but ONLY during starting.
It sounds like two hammers smacked into each other.
I've had weak battery issues before (due to short commute), but this noise is new to me and it worries me.
I'm almost positive that it's the starter motor. I've had this noise too while my battery was weak. My bike barely turned over, barely turned over, then BANG.
I found out that my problem was that I wasn't riding it for long enough haha
ME?
I would push start it.....
Could be:
Missing, broken, worn teeth on starter or flywheel.
Low battery (easiest to change out).
Bad starting relay.
Bad starter.
Broken, loose, frayed, corroded, damaged, dirty, unkempt, yucky, painted wire connection...
Bent, broken rod.
Bent, broken, damaged anything else internal engine pieces.
Compression check?
Dirty spark plug(s).
Bad gas.
Bad plug wire.
Bad ignition.
Freaking cold out.
It's a mechanical contraption, therefore it was designed to break.
(check the voltage across battery while starting it, if it falls below 12 volts i would change the battery after checking all wire connections)
But.... ME, i would push start it, and go from there.
:technical:
Oh my. I am not sure what to do next to diagnose this properly. I will receive new battery in couple of weeks.
Bike runs perfectly after it starts and starting is not a regular issue. Sometimes it occurs sometimes it starts normally. Today it started fine 5 times. 4 out of those were with warm motor
hey guys I am working on the bike now.
It appears that the gasoline is ignited too early. Like the timing was messed up, but how could that be?
What else may cause premature ignition??
Could 2 different gas stations be selling gasoline that is advertised as 87 octanes but in reality is lower? This could cause premature ignition.
I need your help fast, bike is still in pieces at this point.
PS. Valves have good clearance, starter motor is fine, solenoid works fine. Bike has only 5000 miles on it.
How do you know it's pre-ignition? Just curious.
Since the timing is ultimately set by the crank sensor on the right side, I would check that first. Maybe a loose wire or something? Doubt it though. Could be your cam chain tensioner is loose and the cam chain slipped a tooth, but that's also unlikely.
Quote from: Big Rich on March 19, 2011, 05:02:03 PM
How do you know it's pre-ignition? Just curious.
Well, there is this loud noise, and after hearing it many times, analyzing, researching, my dad and I came to this conclusion.
It sounds like explosion followed by a metallic sound, and it happens only when starting. Engine almost turns over, then pretty much stops and... BANG, and you can see carburetors moving!!! I can properly describe it but there definitely is internal explosion and gases are released through carbs.
That's why I think it's pre ignition, because if it ignited in the right moment, it wouldn't spin backwards and exhaust through carbs.
I noticed very unusual thing which actually remedies the problem: do not use choke during start up.
I tried starting on very low battery today, and if I used choke it would not turn over and would bang a lot,
but then I tried with no choke and it turned over just fine, even with very low battery, and didn't bang/backfire or anything like thatI also noticed that when starting using booster (jump starter) it didn't bang either with coke or with no choke.
So why does it turn over easily and start when I don't use choke and doesn't even turn over when I use choke? (remember that today's test were done without recharging my battery which was quite low towards the end of the day [11.8V])
I can make a video if you don't believe me. My father said that he's been working with cars for past 35 years and have never seen such phenomenon.... (he's auto body man, but he know a lot about mechanics and engines too!)
I think the noise you're describing is just back firing out of the carb. Generally caused by a lean condition but the choke part doesn't make sense.....I see you rejetted, but what about the mixture screws? And maybe your choke cable needs adjusted a little- it may literary be starving the engine for air.
Fwiw, I'm not doubting you or your dad.
Mine made that metalic clang sound today when I was trying to start it for the first time this year...battery was almost flat, and the starter partially disengaged while trying to start the bike...that is the sound you are hearing...try boosting it from a stronger 12V battery and I bet you don't get the clang...I forgot to put the battery on charge last night before trying to start it today, so I thought I would just give it a shot...result...battery is now charging for another attempt tomorrow.... ;)
Later.
Quote from: Big Rich on March 19, 2011, 09:27:20 PM
I think the noise you're describing is just back firing out of the carb. Generally caused by a lean condition but the choke part doesn't make sense.....I see you rejetted, but what about the mixture screws? And maybe your choke cable needs adjusted a little- it may literary be starving the engine for air.
Fwiw, I'm not doubting you or your dad.
I have mixture screws at 3 turns out so mixture should be fine.
How should I adjust the choke? Should I adjust it in a way that max choke applied after adjustment is about 3/4 of what is now? Or the other way around so I can apply even more choke? (Logically thinking I would want to apply less since I am starving the engine for air, but I no longer know what is logical and what not :cheers:)
Quote from: kml.krk on March 20, 2011, 07:01:32 PM
I no longer know what is logical and what not :cheers:)
You haven't been speaking to government employees have you?
Sounds like you need to smoke some DMT to get proper perspective :icon_lol:
Michael
Quote from: kml.krk on March 19, 2011, 09:01:33 PM
I also noticed that when starting using booster (jump starter) it didn't bang either with coke or with no choke.
I'm pretty sure you have figured it out...^^^^ ( but you're probably looking at it too hard...) .Get your fresh new battery in there and let us know what happens.
I have had bad batteries that would hold a "surface" voltage ...come up green on the charger -would even read a good voltage but were junk.
The sharp sound could be the starter clutch disengaging/engaging as you run the power down/engine is still turning.You have enough power to turn it over...maybe just enough to keep the starter clutch engaged -power drains enough for the starter rpms to drop...slightly lets off...now there's no load and it spins back up and tries to re-engage the motor that's still spinning.
After it's running- do a compression check if you're worried about valves ( check clearances too )- just to set your mind at ease...but since once it's running- it's fine- I don't think you have a problem there.
we checked valves on sat and they're perfect. we jumped the starter, it works excellent.
I am starting to think that there is no real problem = blame the battery.
It just bugs me that the battery passes load test just fine...
anyways, for now I will just start with no choke and wait for my replacement battery.
Hey I listened to your starting issue video, then I noticed your Leo Vince soundclip in the relateds. I found that clip ages ago when I was still picking out a bike, I'm a bit of a fan of that pipe.
^^^
Cool!
I love that pipe too.
Sometimes on a quiet mornings it bothers me, but other times I love it.
By the way, problems with starting are gone for now.
1. I THINK that the problem was mostly related to mixture screws being 3.5 turns out, this was too much and bike got flooded during startup (that's why choke was making it even worse)
2. Weak battery didn't help (I got replacement and it spins the motor very well)
3. I also synchronized the carbs just to make sure they are OK
4. It got much warmer
I haven't had any starting issues since then!
Happy riding!