I was changing my oil, and when I was screwing the filter cover back on 1 of the 3 screws that comes out from the bike snapped.... What now?
Btw it's a 05.
You get a prize for being the 1000th gstwins member to do that. :icon_lol: Search, there are many threads for fixing it.
That's why I don't bolt mine on, I just tape he cover on with duct tape :thumb:
Quote from: gsJack on March 12, 2011, 04:55:20 PM
You get a prize for being the 1000th gstwins member to do that. :icon_lol: Search, there are many threads for fixing it.
lol I took care of it, asked my dad what to do and he showed me the double nut trick to get it out. The dealership didnt have the bolt in stock, and the hardware store didnt have a similar one either. So I just bought 1 long bolt and screwed it in all the way. Its gonna make changing the oil next time take an extra minute or two but it works.
I just searched it up and wow it is pretty common... that sucks :(
Yikes! I can hardly wait to do my first oil change. :icon_rolleyes:
Quote from: gsJack on March 12, 2011, 04:55:20 PM
You get a prize for being the 1000th gstwins member to do that. :icon_lol: Search, there are many threads for fixing it.
Jack, how many times have you seen that exact post over the years? Sorry to hear about the luck on the bolt. I have done similar on other bolts etc. It really feels pretty rotten when you do it. I snapped a bolt off flush in a Chevy 350 engine block some years back. Was a biatch to get out but lived to tell about it.
Now you know how little torque those will stand. I think there is a tendency to overtighten them because nobody wants to leak their oil out and damage their engine....or leak oil directly in front of the rear tire...... You will be blown away how easy it will seal without overtightening. Take care.
Scott
o m f g
So I filled it up with oil, and was letting it run. I saw a tiny bit leaking from the bottom of the filter cap. So I tightened every bolt just a little bit (only using my wrist right above the wrench) and when I tightened the last one (the brand new one, top left) it snapped.
Now I have a my bike full of oil and a snapped bolt... so f%$king mad right now.
They can put men on the moon but they still can't make a postcard carousel that doesn't squeak or a GS oil filter bolt that doesn't snap off when you look at it funny.
Quote from: pawo on March 14, 2011, 02:26:14 PM
o m f g
So I filled it up with oil, and was letting it run. I saw a tiny bit leaking from the bottom of the filter cap. So I tightened every bolt just a little bit (only using my wrist right above the wrench) and when I tightened the last one (the brand new one, top left) it snapped.
Now I have a my bike full of oil and a snapped bolt... so f%$king mad right now.
It was probably a pinched 0-ring seal causing the leak and further tightening wouldn't stop it anyway. I had one leak once and just took the cover back off and replaced the seal. Put the drain pan under it when you take the cover back off but you won't loose much oil unless you run it with it off. After that I grabbed a couple fingers of all purpose grease and heavily coated the seal every oil change to keep it stuck in the groove. I must have done over 50 oil changes on my GS500s in 160k miles and haven't broken a cover bolt yet so it can be done. After saying that I better be super careful next time. :icon_lol:
^ thanks
I think I'm going to buy a bunch of these
http://www.nutsandbolts.com/m6-x-10-x-35-metric-hex-bolt-cap-screw-109-qty-25-p-1800.html
What kind of bolts are the stock ones? I'm guessing (hoping) the 10.9 stainless steel is going to be stronger.
Quote from: pawo on March 14, 2011, 02:26:14 PM
o m f g
So I filled it up with oil, and was letting it run. I saw a tiny bit leaking from the bottom of the filter cap. So I tightened every bolt just a little bit (only using my wrist right above the wrench) and when I tightened the last one (the brand new one, top left) it snapped.
Now I have a my bike full of oil and a snapped bolt... so f%$king mad right now.
Same happened to me on my last service (the leaking after tightening), so I went to the bike store and bought a new seal for $11.90 and haven't had any issues since :thumb:
this was a brand new seal
so? how those bolts looking? stronger than stock?
Quote from: pawo on March 12, 2011, 06:20:54 PM
Quote from: gsJack on March 12, 2011, 04:55:20 PM
You get a prize for being the 1000th gstwins member to do that. :icon_lol: Search, there are many threads for fixing it.
I just searched it up and wow it is pretty common... that sucks :(
I guess thats what comes with a bike thats seen no engineering changes or improvements for 20+ years ;) Maybe Suzuki will finally update this relic for 2012...
I don't know the strength rate of the OE, but sounds like they are on par with a desicated turd. Stainless is typically not strong, but can be grade 8 even. Thing is, you don't want it too strong or you will be dealing with stripped threads in block. Get the seal on, tack it with wheel bearing grease or silicone grease and push the cover on firmly as you set each fastener just barely hand tight. Then with a nut driver snug them up, not even tight and all the same, maybe in three stages: finger, almost snug, and snug.
prs
PRS alluded to the problem with using a bolt where there should be a stud and it has nothing to do with the grade of the bolt. Threaded aluminum will not hold up to frequent installation and removal of a bolt. If you must use a bolt, you also need a threaded insert.
The capscrew is only a temporary fix until you can get a new stud for the next oil change. Continue to use a capscrew in and out of the aluminum block and it's only a matter of time until you strip the threads in the block. Learn to tighten the acorn nuts without breaking the studs. Easy does it.
Quote from: gsJack on March 14, 2011, 08:14:03 PM
The capscrew is only a temporary fix until you can get a new stud for the next oil change. Continue to use a capscrew in and out of the aluminum block and it's only a matter of time until you strip the threads in the block. Learn to tighten the acorn nuts without breaking the studs. Easy does it.
thanks, saved me some more trouble.
Should I just go to the dealership and get the original ones from them? or find a higher quality stud? I'm having a hard time finding a m6x1.0x35 stud... lots of capscrews but no stud.
Quote from: pawo on March 15, 2011, 11:17:49 AM
Quote from: gsJack on March 14, 2011, 08:14:03 PM
The capscrew is only a temporary fix until you can get a new stud for the next oil change. Continue to use a capscrew in and out of the aluminum block and it's only a matter of time until you strip the threads in the block. Learn to tighten the acorn nuts without breaking the studs. Easy does it.
thanks, saved me some more trouble.
Should I just go to the dealership and get the original ones from them? or find a higher quality stud? I'm having a hard time finding a m6x1.0x35 stud... lots of capscrews but no stud.
I'd just get the oem ones from the dealer. If your concerned about tightening the cover acorn nuts I think Pigeonroost's suggestion to use a nut driver is a good idea.
That's the best suggestion. There's no need to use a ratchet on these. They don't need to be tightened down to were we're cracking covers or breaking bolts.... :thumb:
UPDATE:
I bought a nut driver and everything, new studs shipped in, was ready to fix it until...........
I took the cover off and noticed there was only 1/4 inch of the stud sticking out, so I couldnt do the double nut trick to get it out. Vice grips didnt do anything either.
What the f.. do I do now? I guess all you can do is drill it out. I really dont trust myself doing that. Is that something dealership will do?
gahhhhhhh
U can do it. Just take your time...
Quote from: Firewalker on March 13, 2011, 12:32:29 AM
Quote from: gsJack on March 12, 2011, 04:55:20 PM
You get a prize for being the 1000th gstwins member to do that. :icon_lol: Search, there are many threads for fixing it.
Jack, how many times have you seen that exact post over the years? Sorry to hear about the luck on the bolt. I have done similar on other bolts etc. It really feels pretty rotten when you do it. I snapped a bolt off flush in a Chevy 350 engine block some years back. Was a biatch to get out but lived to tell about it.
Now you know how little torque those will stand. I think there is a tendency to overtighten them because nobody wants to leak their oil out and damage their engine....or leak oil directly in front of the rear tire...... You will be blown away how easy it will seal without overtightening. Take care.
Scott
I will never know why some folks treat oil filter cover nuts and drain plugs as if they were cylinder head bolts. I've found oil drain plugs that were so tight I had to beat them loose by hitting my 3/8" ratchet with a hammer. They should NEVER be that tight. No need, plain and simple. Engine, brake, and suspension bolts need to be tight, but very few others need to be very tight at all. Most of the time, snug plus a little is just dandy. People will say, "but I don't want my plug to fall out and lose all my oil!" That's what happens when you don't tighten it at all. In this case we are tightening 3 acorn nuts to press an aluminum cover onto a rubber seal. In situations like this big torque is not what is needed at all.
^ lol I now know, learned my lesson.
heres a pic I just took
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c289/plpaul/d2d2d2d2d-1.jpg)
I really dont want to drill it out. I'm going to see if I have a twist extractor set in the garage.
I would try hand filing a small flat each side of the broken stud, then using a small vice grip on it. Drilling out the stud is a last resort as it is so easy for the drill to wander into the aluminium.
messed it up... :(
I used a dremel to cut a slot for a flat head screw driver. It wouldnt budge at all and I ended up breaking most of whats sticking out with the screwdriver.
Very upset right now, dont know what to do. Guess I'll just call the dealership and see if they can do anything.
Doesn't Sears make those kool easy out things I saw on TV? You might check it out and see what they have.
my 2 cents!
I will never know why some folks treat oil filter cover nuts and drain plugs as if they were cylinder head bolts. I've found oil drain plugs that were so tight I had to beat them loose by hitting my 3/8" ratchet with a hammer. They should NEVER be that tight. No need, plain and simple. Engine, brake, and suspension bolts need to be tight, but very few others need to be very tight at all. Most of the time, snug plus a little is just dandy. People will say, "but I don't want my plug to fall out and lose all my oil!" That's what happens when you don't tighten it at all. In this case we are tightening 3 acorn nuts to press an aluminum cover onto a rubber seal. In situations like this big torque is not what is needed at all.
[/quote]
Totally agree, I just changed the oil on my brotherinlaws yamaha 750. he had done the oil drain plug up so tight that he couldn't get it off.he had also rounded off all the corners, so he brought it around to me to fix. ended up using a 6 sided imperial socket on it to get it off, then spent the next half and hour filing it down to another size. then told him. "Don't ever tighten it up that tight again' a quater turn after tight is all it needs!
As a last resort, you can use a small punch, or a very small (strong!) nail, to slowly work the broken bolt out.
Punch it on or near the edge then walk around the head to unscrew it, a little at a time.
It's a method I used a few times in situations like these (broken, stripped or stuck bolts).
Don't know how to explain better - sorry, language barrier won't help. :)
Good luck!
Quote from: pawo on March 19, 2011, 12:12:58 PM
heres a pic I just took
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c289/plpaul/d2d2d2d2d-1.jpg)
You want to replace that bottom stud while you are at it, it looks stretched to me.
If you know someone who is good with a welder (preferably TIG, but ordinary arc would do), you could try this:
Get about a 4" length of 1/16" flat bar and drill a 6mm hole near one end, then bend the end so that it looks like _____/ ,hole in the short section. Now slip the hole over your remaining stud and weld it on (make sure there's room to swing the tool a full 360*). The danger is getting the aluminium too hot, it melts at a lower temperature than steel, but if its done quickly it should be OK. If all goes well it'll be quick and relatively easy, worst case you'd have to re-tap the hole, even go to 7mm thread if necessary.
I'd try it on a scrap component first...maybe someone's dead lawnmower or bike part from a wrecker or something.
clean the ever loving piss out of it all, and jb weld a new on on there. when you have to take it off next time, rubber mallet and a new cover and a dremel to repeat. or a new engine, or a tig welder. lots of options.
^ I messed it up and its not almost completely flush with the aluminum.
I called the dealership and they said they could do it for $79/hr, and said they have no idea of how long it would take. It shouldnt take more than 2 hours right?
Have you by chance tried a small (smaller than the minor diameter of the stud) left-handed drill bit and an extractor (if one that small is available)? Carefully use a center punch prior to drilling to avoid drilling off-center and damaging the aluminum. Sears should sell these two items, and if not, try a machine shop tool distributor. Where are you located?
Also, another member mentioned running a larger bolt. This would work as well, if you end up having to drill it out. Drill the cover to match. Or a helicoil will work, with a stock size stud. Check Grainger, Fastenal, and Mcmaster for replacement, higher grade studs. They all should stock these and be able to ship them to you next day, if there isn't a local location to retrieve them from.
-Dave
So finally a month and a half later I got it fixed.
I failed on my own lol, used a dremel to cut a slit and tried using a flat head screwdriver to get it out. This turned out really bad, not only did I break pretty much the rest of the stud off, but I made a small cut in the aluminum. :( :( :(
I was going to try to drill it and tap it but after that fail I had no hope, and brought it to this bike/snowmobile shop my friend recommended.
He took care of it pretty damn quick. I ended up replacing the other studs while I was at it. Heres a pic:
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c289/plpaul/qdqdwfq3r13frfq.png)
I'm so pissed about messing up the aluminum. Obviously the O ring isnt going to be flush with the aluminum. So what now? RTV silicone? any other options? Which one should I use? the Red high temp one or the Black max oil resistance one or whatever its called.
I cant wait to get her running :( I bought a nut driver, hopefully Ill never have to go through this again.
Hi there,
Sorry to hear about all of your nightmares with the oil filter studs and cap nuts.
As others said, you should have read the previous posts about this subject. :)
Here are two of my posts from the past after other people did the same thing that you did. :)
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=55528.20
On the issue many of you are discussing about tightness of nuts and bolts, I just have to add...
So many people on this site over the last few years are utterly shocked when they snap off the oil filter cover studs as they try to retighten them after a filter change.
Then they go on and on about how to replace the broken studs, how to get the broken studs out, etc.
All I can say is, if you use a proper torque wrench you can prevent most of these problems, unless of course the stud was cross-threaded by someone or is rusty from not being changed, etc.
I use a larger foot-pounds Craftsman clicker torque wrench for the engine drain bolt and all other fasteners on the bike, including for retorquing the cylinder head at every valve adjustment check.
I also own a smaller inch-pounds Craftsman torque wrench, which has an accurate lower torque range, for tiny fasteners like the three cap nuts that hold the oil filter cover to the engine.
I've been working on engines for more than 30 years and don't snap off fasteners using these tools.
It's really that simple.
So my recommendation, buy and use the right tools and life will be good.
Here is the proper torque specification for the cap nuts that hold the oil filter cover on:
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=47419.msg532944#msg532944
There most definitely is a torque figure for the three nuts on the oil filter cover.
The proper torque is 60 inch-pounds. That's INCH pounds, not foot-pounds.
It doesn't feel ike much, but that's all there is.
Use the PROPER inch-pounds torque wrench and all will be well.
And just so you know, even those of us who have been riding and working on motorcycles for 36 years sometimes do dumb things. :)
Here's mine:
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=29364.0
I'm big enough to admit my stupidity.... :)
« on: August 13, 2006, 03:26:26 PM »
Dear GS500 pals and palettes,
OK, it's a gorgeous, sunny, lovely day here in central PA and I decided to do some basic maintenance on my beloved 1991 GS500E before heading out tomorrow to visit friends in NJ via my bike.
I adjusted the chain and lubed it.
Check.
I tightened the header bolts and miscellaneous nuts and bolts all over the bike.
Check.
I adjusted tire pressures, 33 PSI front, 41 PSI rear.
Check.
I do an oil and filter change. Remove engine oil drain bolt and remove old washer from bolt, replacing it with a fresh new copper washer, reinstall engine oil drain bolt and torque to 18 foot-pounds..
Check.
Remove three oil filter cover nuts, remove old oil filter, clean inside of cover, clean oil filter engine cavity, clean spring, remove old oil filter cover o-ring, put some oil in cover o-ring groove to hold new o-ring in place, lubricate and install new oil filter, replace oil filter cover, torque nuts to 60 inch-pounds.
Check.
Pour in 3.1 quarts of fresh Castrol 10W-40 oil, reinstall dipstick and start engine to circulate oil and check for what will certainly be non-existent leaks because I am such a careful, meticulous and skilled mechanic (I've only been doing oil changes for 31 years). Let engine idle.
Check.
Look under bike to see oil POOLING out from the oil filter cover, gushing onto the pavement.
That's when I noticed the brand new oil filter cover o-ring sitting next to me on the sidewalk, still wrapped beautifully in it's little plastic parts bag, with the Suzuki part number sticker staring me in the face.
I was careful, I cleaned everything, I was knowledgeable and enjoying myself, and all I did was forget one little step -- putting the new oil filter cover o-ring into the cover's carefully lubricated groove.
Priceless.
Lesson learned?
Even an expert can be a noobie. So don't sweat such things. Besides, it's fun to laugh about these things later and share our tales with our friends, which is why I'm telling you all this story.
So learn from my silliness, and have fun out there.
Honestly, I've hardly ridden since our 25-year-old friend, Rich Christie (Phaedrus), died on July 1 in a motorcycle accident that wasn't his fault. His death, by being hit by another motorcycle head-on, really hit me hard and made me wonder about the sanity of having a motorcycle. I've been riding for 31 years and his death really affected me. We had e-mailed each other several times and left cellphone messages for each other but never actually connected before the PA ride in late June. I'd never met him but he wasn't a stranger.
I even listed my GS500E on the board for sale recently because I wasn't sure I could get back on it.
But today, I finally wanted to go out and play with my bike to get it ready to go riding this week. I'm finally ready again. I can't wait to hit the road in the morning. Smiley
I think Rich would have been glad to see me working on my bike today in my backyard and smiling again, and I know he would enjoy my missing o-ring story.
Have a great weekend everyone, and let's be careful out there.
So there you have it.
Good luck and next time use an accurate torque wrench and you will be fine.
Like GSJack, I've never snapped a stud either in all these years because I use the right tools and torques.
Best wishes,
Trwhouse
Quote from: pawo on April 24, 2011, 12:30:01 PM
I'm so pissed about messing up the aluminum. Obviously the O ring isnt going to be flush with the aluminum. So what now? RTV silicone? any other options?
Fill it with JB Weld or other epoxy and lightly file flush when cured. This way you won't have to reapply sealant everytime you change the filter. :thumb:
I'll be changing my oil fornthe first time next week, if I use an inch-pound torque wrench set to 60 I should be fine then? I didn't realize that these were an issue so I'm glad I saw this thread.
I just turn them hand tight with a nut driver, then maybe an 1/8 turn past, never had any leaks
Always use a 1/4" drive ratchet of a screw driver type handle and socket for this kind of stuff. Using the screw driver handle and a socket there's almost no way to over torque the nut. If you're using a 1/4 " ratchet use only your forefinger and thumb on the ratchet to tighten the nut.
Quote from: jfoley on April 24, 2011, 04:39:37 PM
I'll be changing my oil fornthe first time next week, if I use an inch-pound torque wrench set to 60 I should be fine then? I didn't realize that these were an issue so I'm glad I saw this thread.
Yes, you will be fine using a proper torque wrench. I have been turning wrenches for about 25 years, and don't own a torque wrench. I have used them, and through experience, I know how an o-ring seal is supposed to work. So I am both lucky and skilled enough that I haven't had an issue. But I am also smart enough to go get a torque wrench to do the stuff that I don't have experience with (such as head bolts). As for lanesplitter's comment: I have worked with some meat-head gorillas who could easily wring off a stud with a screwdriver handle.
I love this quote, which is appropriate here:
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.
Hi again,
Oh, and I forgot to mention just why an inch-pound torque wrench is so important -- 60 inch-pounds of torque is the same as 5 foot-pounds.
The problem with trying to measure 5 foot-pounds on a foot-pounds torque wrench is that it is too low a torque value on a 0 to 150 foot-pounds torque wrench, so you will get an inaccurate reading.
Better to use 60-inch-pounds, which reads higher on a 0 to 600 inch-pounds torque wrench, making it a more accurate reading.
:)
Get it? :)
Best wishes,
Trwhouse