*Dislaimer*
I don't intend to take advantage of this, as that'd just be wrong. If my conscience would allow it, though, it'd be a super sweet deal.
I bought my 2007* GS from a [rather sketchy] dealer here in town back in February. I checked it all out and figured that even though the shop was shady, the bike was sound. I got it for right at $2,800 OTD. I was financing it through my credit union, so I gave him the check from them, and he filled out all the tag/title paperwork to send in to the state.
Saturday I get an envelope in the mail from the FL DHSMV. I open it up...and find the title to my bike. :confused: Under "Registered Owner"...my name. :icon_eek: Under "Lien Holder"..."None". :flipoff:
So at church yesterday, I asked a buddy who works in collections for another credit union. I told him what happened, and asked "So, does that mean I can tell Pen-Air to pound sand and there's nothing they can do to me?" He said that yeah, he's seen it happen before. It's a mistake...but it's legal.
This happened a couple of days after making my first payment...so I'm only $100 into this bike...and I fully and legally own it outright. :woohoo:
*Dude at the shop didn't even know what it was. He thought is was an '03...right up until he couldn't find registration info for it. I had to explain to him that there's no such thing as an '03 F-model...and that I damn sure wouldn't have agreed to this price for an '03 anyway. I guess, with being such an idiot up front, I shouldn't have been surprised that he effed-up the title paperwork. :dunno_black:
You're in florida aren't you ... OK not too far for me to make a drive down there to thump you ... if you dont tell them to take a hike.
Of course if it was a bank I'd thump you a lot harder. Credit union can be a relatively good organisation or a mom and pop shop, but OTOH it can be a front for a bank.
So, find out, and get ready for the thumping. Either way you need to walk away with the gs. They charge people 1000's to do "paperwork". Essentially they have charged people 1000's if not millions just this year alone to write up stuff just like your purchase agreement.
Cool.
Buddha.
So the shady dealership got a check for the bike from your credit union? I assume you had to take out a loan from the credit union to get the check right? Even though the bike has a free and clear title, are you not still on the hook for the loan you took out in the first place? Am I missing something?
As sweet as it sounds, you might be pissing off the wrong kinda people (financiers) since we are talking more than a couple bucks. Even if the title says "none" under lien holder, you know and they know you owe on it. In a way (morally atleast) it is stealing and wrongful possession if you keep the bike without paying off the correct amount.
Is it worth getting beat up or having someone mess up your home/possessions ? They can also do it without "proof".. don't forget.. they know where you live. :nono:
The thing that would complicate it is that all my accounts are there. So, if I did that (I didn't go to the trouble of changing institutions), they may be able to just take the money from my accounts. I don't know the legalities there, though. Since the bike is the security on the loan, I don't know if they can go after other funds.
Like I said, I intend to keep making my payment (it's only about $85/month anyway)...right up until they do anything to piss me off. :icon_lol:
They dont have any right to touch you other $. At this point they dont have a right to repo it either.
The only thing they can do is to report your missed payments to credit, ironically they likely closed off the loan account. That was why you have the title with none as leinholder.
If you are hell bent on making payments and want to avoid a thumping then atleast wait till they send you a late payment notice or something like a reminder. That way atleast you know it will be applied to your loan's outstanding balance.
Cool.
Buddha.
I believe they could put a lien on it at any time. So someone at your credit union may be going though paperwork next month and say, "Hmm, we haven't gotten the title on that bike we paid for. I think I'll call DHSMV."
Quote from: Paulcet on March 28, 2011, 07:22:22 AM
I believe they could put a lien on it at any time. So someone at your credit union may be going though paperwork next month and say, "Hmm, we haven't gotten the title on that bike we paid for. I think I'll call DHSMV."
I dont think so. Atleast not without a court order. At this point its his free and clear. They may be able to ding his credit for missed payments on the bike, which I am nearly sure he can get a court to reverse that.
Calling the DMV wont do squat, I've called them many times and got nothing but dumb looks ...
Cool.
Buddha.
Change your address, phone number, accounts, keep an eye over your shoulder and start packing heat! :icon_lol:
Strange situation. Not like you got away with a 10k bike so who knows how everything will go down.
Quote from: Twism86 on March 28, 2011, 07:58:50 AM
Not like you got away with a 10k bike so who knows how everything will go down.
Hell, had I known this would happen, I'd have bought one of the supersports on the floor. :tongue2:
You sure the credit union even holds titles? They might've given it to you as a personal loan for that amount of money. When I bought my last bike I got a loan through my credit union, they just gave me a check and I bought the bike with the cash. I still own the bike and have the title, but I owe the credit union money for a few more months. I'd say there's a good chance everything was done right, and the credit union just gave you a different kind of loan than you thought, and wrote the check to the dealership instead of to you. I think they usually only like to do vehicle loans and go through that hassle for things over $5k or so. Not paying would probably just destroy your credit(I know you said you were still gonna pay though).
This is the third bike I've financed through them, and they held the title on both of the previous ones (both of which were under $5k). :dunno_black:
Quote from: murf425 on March 28, 2011, 06:04:07 AM
*Dislaimer*
I don't intend to take advantage of this, as that'd just be wrong. If my conscience would allow it, though, it'd be a super sweet deal.
I bought my 2007* GS from a [rather sketchy] dealer here in town back in February. I checked it all out and figured that even though the shop was shady, the bike was sound. I got it for right at $2,800 OTD. I was financing it through my credit union, so I gave him the check from them, and he filled out all the tag/title paperwork to send in to the state.
Saturday I get an envelope in the mail from the FL DHSMV. I open it up...and find the title to my bike. :confused: Under "Registered Owner"...my name. :icon_eek: Under "Lien Holder"..."None". :flipoff:
So at church yesterday, I asked a buddy who works in collections for another credit union. I told him what happened, and asked "So, does that mean I can tell Pen-Air to pound sand and there's nothing they can do to me?" He said that yeah, he's seen it happen before. It's a mistake...but it's legal.
This happened a couple of days after making my first payment...so I'm only $100 into this bike...and I fully and legally own it outright. :woohoo:
*Dude at the shop didn't even know what it was. He thought is was an '03...right up until he couldn't find registration info for it. I had to explain to him that there's no such thing as an '03 F-model...and that I damn sure wouldn't have agreed to this price for an '03 anyway. I guess, with being such an idiot up front, I shouldn't have been surprised that he effed-up the title paperwork. :dunno_black:
Dude....wake up.....read the fine print....I'm sure there is a "typo" clause in there....you're gonna loose this one if you try. You wouldn't stand for one second in a court....and you'd loss more because you would need to hire a lawyer for $2000.
Cookie
There is a clause called E & OE = Errors and Omissions exempted. That however is limited to the contract they wrote and you signed. And if it is a standard contract they print 1000's of, I should say that E&OE crap will never stand up in court.
That brings up the next point, your title isn't mentioned or covered by that contract. In fact the contract and the payment book you have pretty much bind you to paying that amount month after month, or else they will report to your credit and take the bike for which they hold the title. So the only thing they can do is hit your credit.
Anything else they're going to have to take you to court. You dont need a lawyer, they do. The worst thing that can happen is that they get a lawyer pay him 5g and get the judge to issue a repo order against your $2500 GS. That is all. You part your GS and leave the frame and engine in your driveway, that's all they get. You put the bike in the garage, they need a search warrant to make you open the garage for them. And judges dont hand out either of those if they went in front of the judge and said "oops we forgot". If that was the case 99% of DUI's will have to be thrown out.
Seriously I'd wait for the first payment overdue/late notice to show before you did anything even if it is to send in the payment. And beyond that, nothing will happen to you or your bike. E&OE clause applies only to the pieces of paper you signed. If you didn't need the credit, I'd call their bluff and not send any more payments. There have been many a bill collector I have bashed into the ground cos I didn't need the credit history including one in Florida from an apartment I used to rent and had to break a lease.
Cool.
Buddha.
This all sounds complicated. I don't want you to get in trouble, so how about I just buy the bike off you and we'll call it a day. Write up a contract saying I'll pay you monthly, you give me the keys and title, and I'll start the payments next month :icon_mrgreen: :flipoff:
Whether the CU made a mistake or not, or whether the dealer made a mistake or not, you, as the borrower, contracted with the CU. Honor your contracts whether you could weasel out of them or not. Integrity.
Just cause everyone does something doesn't mean it's right; just cause noone does something doesn't mean it's wrong.
Michael
Quote from: mister on March 28, 2011, 11:24:31 AM
Whether the CU made a mistake or not, or whether the dealer made a mistake or not, you, as the borrower, contracted with the CU. Honor your contracts whether you could weasel out of them or not. Integrity.
This post should end this thread.
I cannot believe anyone would be recommending he steal it like that! Holy cow!
I'm pretty surprised at the replies to :)
All in all it sounds like a line of credit loan which does not require any type of legal title or lien on the bike. It's just like opening a credit card and now you owe them the money. The only thing that will hurt is your credit if you stop making payments. They won't come after you for anything if you stop making payments. Just get ready for some smashing of your credit, and facing them whenever you do your banking there :whisper:
Quote from: The Buddha on March 28, 2011, 10:06:45 AM
There is a clause called E & OE = Errors and Omissions exempted. That however is limited to the contract they wrote and you signed. And if it is a standard contract they print 1000's of, I should say that E&OE crap will never stand up in court.
That brings up the next point, your title isn't mentioned or covered by that contract. In fact the contract and the payment book you have pretty much bind you to paying that amount month after month, or else they will report to your credit and take the bike for which they hold the title. So the only thing they can do is hit your credit.
Anything else they're going to have to take you to court. You dont need a lawyer, they do. The worst thing that can happen is that they get a lawyer pay him 5g and get the judge to issue a repo order against your $2500 GS. That is all. You part your GS and leave the frame and engine in your driveway, that's all they get. You put the bike in the garage, they need a search warrant to make you open the garage for them. And judges dont hand out either of those if they went in front of the judge and said "oops we forgot". If that was the case 99% of DUI's will have to be thrown out.
Seriously I'd wait for the first payment overdue/late notice to show before you did anything even if it is to send in the payment. And beyond that, nothing will happen to you or your bike. E&OE clause applies only to the pieces of paper you signed. If you didn't need the credit, I'd call their bluff and not send any more payments. There have been many a bill collector I have bashed into the ground cos I didn't need the credit history including one in Florida from an apartment I used to rent and had to break a lease.
Cool.
Buddha.
Blah blah blah.....IT IS DISHONEST! Now we know what kind of person you are......but even if you are dishonest, you're not getting away with it....let us know what happens...........It will be fun to see you on that "repo" TV show with all the fat dudes, and dudettes! :cry:
Cookie
Personally, I would't recommend not paying them, however they couldn't really come for the bike since they are not on the title. That being said; they screwed up. I would mention it to them if they start BS-ing you about it.
I have a friend in California who ended up getting his Mitsubishi EVO for just what his down payment was because they screwed up and sent him the title. He took it to court and won. For a $2500 bike though, its not worth the court fees.
Check the loan papers. It could be a personal un-secured loan. If it is, you still have to pay or your credit is screwed up and they will come after you. If your credit was excellent, then it might be that. I bought a cheap car that way - personal loan and they didn't hold the title.
Quote from: twocool on March 28, 2011, 01:07:18 PM
Quote from: The Buddha on March 28, 2011, 10:06:45 AM
There is a clause called E & OE = Errors and Omissions exempted. That however is limited to the contract they wrote and you signed. And if it is a standard contract they print 1000's of, I should say that E&OE crap will never stand up in court.
That brings up the next point, your title isn't mentioned or covered by that contract. In fact the contract and the payment book you have pretty much bind you to paying that amount month after month, or else they will report to your credit and take the bike for which they hold the title. So the only thing they can do is hit your credit.
Anything else they're going to have to take you to court. You dont need a lawyer, they do. The worst thing that can happen is that they get a lawyer pay him 5g and get the judge to issue a repo order against your $2500 GS. That is all. You part your GS and leave the frame and engine in your driveway, that's all they get. You put the bike in the garage, they need a search warrant to make you open the garage for them. And judges dont hand out either of those if they went in front of the judge and said "oops we forgot". If that was the case 99% of DUI's will have to be thrown out.
Seriously I'd wait for the first payment overdue/late notice to show before you did anything even if it is to send in the payment. And beyond that, nothing will happen to you or your bike. E&OE clause applies only to the pieces of paper you signed. If you didn't need the credit, I'd call their bluff and not send any more payments. There have been many a bill collector I have bashed into the ground cos I didn't need the credit history including one in Florida from an apartment I used to rent and had to break a lease.
Cool.
Buddha.
Blah blah blah.....IT IS DISHONEST! Now we know what kind of person you are......but even if you are dishonest, you're not getting away with it....let us know what happens...........It will be fun to see you on that "repo" TV show with all the fat dudes, and dudettes! :cry:
Cookie
Easy there, the OP already said "
I don't intend to take advantage of this, as that'd just be wrong." The comments you quote are Buddha's, so don't attribute that attitude to the OP.
Quote from: the mole on March 28, 2011, 02:44:41 PM
Quote from: twocool on March 28, 2011, 01:07:18 PM
Quote from: The Buddha on March 28, 2011, 10:06:45 AM
There is a clause called E & OE = Errors and Omissions exempted. That however is limited to the contract they wrote and you signed. And if it is a standard contract they print 1000's of, I should say that E&OE crap will never stand up in court.
That brings up the next point, your title isn't mentioned or covered by that contract. In fact the contract and the payment book you have pretty much bind you to paying that amount month after month, or else they will report to your credit and take the bike for which they hold the title. So the only thing they can do is hit your credit.
Anything else they're going to have to take you to court. You dont need a lawyer, they do. The worst thing that can happen is that they get a lawyer pay him 5g and get the judge to issue a repo order against your $2500 GS. That is all. You part your GS and leave the frame and engine in your driveway, that's all they get. You put the bike in the garage, they need a search warrant to make you open the garage for them. And judges dont hand out either of those if they went in front of the judge and said "oops we forgot". If that was the case 99% of DUI's will have to be thrown out.
Seriously I'd wait for the first payment overdue/late notice to show before you did anything even if it is to send in the payment. And beyond that, nothing will happen to you or your bike. E&OE clause applies only to the pieces of paper you signed. If you didn't need the credit, I'd call their bluff and not send any more payments. There have been many a bill collector I have bashed into the ground cos I didn't need the credit history including one in Florida from an apartment I used to rent and had to break a lease.
Cool.
Buddha.
Blah blah blah.....IT IS DISHONEST! Now we know what kind of person you are......but even if you are dishonest, you're not getting away with it....let us know what happens...........It will be fun to see you on that "repo" TV show with all the fat dudes, and dudettes! :cry:
Cookie
Easy there, the OP already said "I don't intend to take advantage of this, as that'd just be wrong." The comments you quote are Buddha's, so don't attribute that attitude to the OP.
Yer right.....but the OP did not say "they made a mistake on my contract, so I'm gonna go down and correct it"....It was more like "Hmmmmmmm...I wonder....how can I get away with this?" I was simply playing this second "what if" line of thought to its conclusion..
It is funny that people seems to have pretty low standards when defrauding "the man"..
I also figured you guys would pick up on the subtle humor that the OP already incriminated himself by balbbing all over the internet........My advise is learn how to keep a secrete :whisper: whenever embessling, falsifying, defrauding, stealing, robbing, or misguiding.....don't tell a sole, not even your wife, or best friend......and never talk on cell phone or blab on internet.........this policy has worked flawlessly for me for years!
:D..... >:(........Oops?
Cookie
You went to church to get advice on stiffing someone? :o
I would be keeping a wide berth from you in case of stray lightning strikes.
Whats the price for good credit?
IMO, alot more than a few thousand. Took me a while to build up mine and I just had the misfortune of never building it up. I didn't get my first credit card until I was 24 and they actually denied me from a few based on lack of credit history.
Credit is valuable. In the end, it'll save you money.
Congrats on the bike, put some pics up!
The missing lienholder information on the title is more of an inconvenience for the bank, than anything. Biggest feature is that it would allow you to sell the bike to another person without paying off the bank first. Which is the whole point of them having their name on the title. It would allow you to transfer the bike out of state or country with no issues, and disappear. If, you know, $2700 is worth the hassle.
Not paying off the loan would probably still allow the bank to repossess the bike (depending on how collateral was set up), and would definitely trash your credit score.
Karma is a ruthless Buddha Loves You. Go down to the credit union and straighten it out. Dishonest people suck. :nono:
Man, if a credit union really f%&ked up that bad, they deserve to lose the money. There's always a long paper trail with loans though, doubt you'd go more than a month without hearing something from them.
Quote from: tykho on March 29, 2011, 06:07:34 PM
Man, if a credit union really f%$ked up that bad, they deserve to lose the money. There's always a long paper trail with loans though, doubt you'd go more than a month without hearing something from them.
I hope everyone takes advantage of you, when you mess up. After all, if you make a mistake you deserve it right?
Quote from: tykho on March 29, 2011, 06:07:34 PM
Man, if a credit union really f%$ked up that bad, they deserve to lose the money.
Hmmm... they deserve to lose the money other people have in their accounts as technically it's that money which gets let out? Obviously you have Zero integrity.
I once borrowed money to build a house. Deal was, bank holds deed in the interim. Well, the money appeared in my account as promised but I still had the deed! I called the bank and asked them if they still wanted the deed. They were like, "Oh yeah, could you come by." with a hint of panic in the voice. I dropped in later that day.
If you will not honor your word your word is worthless.
Michael
I actually had this with a car. It was written as a personal loan without collateral (unsecured). I was a little confused even took them in the title to the car. Here I had been with the CU for a while and paid off several loans and they simply didn't feel I was a risk. Prior to that though if I had a loan they gave me the check, I cashed it, made the purchase and it was my responsibility to take them the title. Then they apply the lien. No big deal.
Honestly though it caught me off guard when they didn't want the last one. It's kinda nice to know they are on your side and that you have the background established that they are willing to give you a loan at the drop of a hat. There's a bit of security in that.
Give em a call or swing in to your CU you may need to take it to them and they may not feel that you are a risk.
If you've built a good relationship there you need to maintain it. I guarantee you'll need them again some day, unless you hit the lottery.
Sounds like an unsecured loan though. You'd be amazed how hard that is to get today so must have done something right.
Quote from: reajcox on March 30, 2011, 08:12:51 AM
Here I had been with the CU for a while and paid off several loans and they simply didn't feel I was a risk.
That could possibly be it. I haven't had a chance to break out my paperwork and read it over (been too busy getting my bike running again). Like I said, it's my third bike financed through them, and all previous times they held the title. I guess maybe after financing and payinig off two, they could be cutting me some slack.
QuotePrior to that though if I had a loan they gave me the check, I cashed it, made the purchase and it was my responsibility to take them the title.
I've financed two bikes and a car...and I never even saw the title until they were paid off. It went straight from the seller to the bank in all three instances.
I'm glad to read all the responses here, and see that at least MOST of our members are honest. :thumb: I've got to go over there tomorrow during my lunch break to take care of some unrelated business, so I'm planning to just bring it up then.
make lots of documentation of EVERYTHING
give copies the documentation to someone else to hold on to so its not at your legal address
pull all your money out, in cash, however it works with your financial institution, cut all ties 100%
sell the bike
walk away and never look back.
I have had banks try to rape me on various ridiculous nonsense, and I took a lot of money from them, legally, via loopholes. Having sympathy for a system thats built to keep the lower class in place is foolish. get what you can
btw, my brother runs one of the most profitable banks in the country, percentage wise, which is family owned. my other brother is is an investment lawyer. I have worked for myself for years, never beholden to anyone else except mysel, and everyone else in my family is a ceo or a lawyer. my opinion is based on perspective that is not limited when it comes to financial institutions.
Bank owners, lawyers, CEO's ... and you have no limited perspective? :whisper:
Interesting situation. The only advice I have in the matter is
DON"T TAKE LEGAL ADVICE FROM THE INTERNETS
Quote from: cd on March 31, 2011, 06:30:08 PM
make lots of documentation of EVERYTHING
give copies the documentation to someone else to hold on to so its not at your legal address
pull all your money out, in cash, however it works with your financial institution, cut all ties 100%
sell the bike
walk away and never look back.
I have had banks try to rape me on various ridiculous nonsense, and I took a lot of money from them, legally, via loopholes. Having sympathy for a system thats built to keep the lower class in place is foolish. get what you can
btw, my brother runs one of the most profitable banks in the country, percentage wise, which is family owned. my other brother is is an investment lawyer. I have worked for myself for years, never beholden to anyone else except mysel, and everyone else in my family is a ceo or a lawyer. my opinion is based on perspective that is not limited when it comes to financial institutions.
Muhahahhahahahahahh ... as someone who has worked for various banks for 10+ years, they are just as bad or worse to their employees. No "corporation" deserves any pity IMHO. Mom and pop shops yes, small businesses yes, The instant they reach past their city and list themselves on the stock exchange, all bets are off.
I had 1 solitary good experience working @ a financial company. But before I name that company they were well known to be absolute a$$holes, so bad that I'd tell people I worked from global solutions (the agency I worked for) instead of I work @ the money store. Literally Say that name and you're liable to get beat up. Pity, I loved every second of it, I loved living in sacramento ... but money store was a loan shark.
Seriously what is legal sometimes isn't ethical. Wha tis ethical sometimes isn't legal, they want you to do what is legal ... so you should return in kind.
Of course it can be a personal loan, it could sting your credit etc etc ... all that make it illegal to walk away with the bike (why would you walk, you'd ride away with it).
Cool.
Buddha.
Well, it pays to be a steady customer.
I went in yesterday and asked the girl who filled out my loan paperwork what gives. Is it a personal loan, differenet from previous ones? Is it an error?
She looked it up and verified that it was done as a normal auto loan, and that the error was on the dealer's end. I'd have to talk to them to get it retitled.
That seemed like a lot of hassle, so I asked [nicely] to speak to her manager, explained the situation to him, told him how I really didn't want to go through dealing with such a worthless seller again...he pulled up my records, saw that I've financed two previous bikes, and had a personal LOC, and always paid everything off on time for the 4 years I've been a member. His solution, "Just put the title in your safe deposit box so nothing happens to it, and we'll just trust you to make the payments as agreed."
It's nice to have enough reputation with a small credit union that they're all "Eh...whatever. We trust you." :thumb:
And keeping that reputation is easily worth $85/month, IMO.
Quote from: murf425 on April 01, 2011, 12:50:12 PM
Well, it pays to be a steady customer.
I went in yesterday and asked the girl who filled out my loan paperwork what gives. Is it a personal loan, differenet from previous ones? Is it an error?
She looked it up and verified that it was done as a normal auto loan, and that the error was on the dealer's end. I'd have to talk to them to get it retitled.
That seemed like a lot of hassle, so I asked [nicely] to speak to her manager, explained the situation to him, told him how I really didn't want to go through dealing with such a worthless seller again...he pulled up my records, saw that I've financed two previous bikes, and had a personal LOC, and always paid everything off on time for the 4 years I've been a member. His solution, "Just put the title in your safe deposit box so nothing happens to it, and we'll just trust you to make the payments as agreed."
It's nice to have enough reputation with a small credit union that they're all "Eh...whatever. We trust you." :thumb:
And keeping that reputation is easily worth $85/month, IMO.
I'd rather have the $85/month - Kidding (sort of)
I see where you're coming from, you did make an agreement and you're sticking to that agreement. Can't say I'd have done it differently myself.
Quote from: murf425 on April 01, 2011, 12:50:12 PM
Well, it pays to be a steady customer.
I went in yesterday and asked the girl who filled out my loan paperwork what gives. Is it a personal loan, differenet from previous ones? Is it an error?
She looked it up and verified that it was done as a normal auto loan, and that the error was on the dealer's end. I'd have to talk to them to get it retitled.
If the dealer made the error - then did the dealer get paid, your bank will easily be able to withhold it or get a recourse on it from the dealer.
The dealer is supposed to put their name and instead he put none - I can easily see the Credit union taking the delaer to court and easily willing if you default, BTW it wont cost by 3-400 to file it for the credit union, cos they ahve lawyers on stand by ... and yes bank lawyers are even dumber and more cut throat than regular lawyers. I had to deliver somehting to one Idiot one time many years ago, it had to be in Rational Rose and it had to be this or that and every thing I did was wrong and bla bla bla ... tha tis when I stopped caring what happens to me at work, and when my manager asked me when I was going to improve I said Improve ... improve ... I plan to seriously start getting as dumb as this fool and be as cranky as I always am ... if that's improving, I'm ready to do it right away.
Anyway those Pricks ended up going under. Dot com bubble man, it was cruel.
Cool.
Buddha.
You did the right thing. All is in order and your credit is excellent.
Ride safe and with the confidence you won't get pulled over for having a stolen bike.
Enjoy!
This thread is very educational. I know who I will do business with now and who I won't. :laugh: It's like a treasure trove of eBay feedback, never seen so many people willfully admit such a complete disregard for morals and values in all my life!
I've worked for some of the biggest ****holes in my life, been misled, lied to, but I would never take advantage of them (let alone an entire industry) because of how I feel about them. Some people are just never happy, and it doesn't matter what company or what industry you plop them into, the grass is always greener, everyone always has it better and easier, and no matter how they justify it they lack any ethical foundation whatsoever.
I know people like this. These are the people who are the reason I show up at work and have to do not just my job, and not just someone elses', but frequently two or three other peoples' jobs, because they are wholly inadequate human beings and really worthless.
Yea heavy charges. But I don't tolerate or coddle lazy con-artists.