I have been running through some of the threads discussion on safe riding, msf and other techniques. I have not bought the recommended reference material yet, but after reading "Nick Ienatsch's article on The Pace" posted by Pantablo was wondering if anyone can offer some advise on the best method to teach myself to brake effectively at high speed.
Quote: If you routinely go 100 mph, we hope you routinely practice emergency stops from that speed.
good point. i need to do that. i typically go pretty fast since most of our roads are highways around here. in fact, the other day i could have easily bit it when everyone braked for a cop on the side of the road. i almost grabbed too much front brake, and it was pretty scarry realizing what almost happened!
both brakes, progressive squeeze/pressure, hard. Same time you should be downshifting to 1st with clutch in (to be prepared to move once stopped)...per msf and my memory.
You need to practice in order to achieve 2 things: 1-you need to make the motions automatic and, 2-you need to know how hard and fast to squeeze and still prevent the wheels locking up, and also to get used to what it feels like if they do.
[also, if you do not plan on taking the MSF read Proficient Motorcycling by David Hough-covers all that stuff. If you are taking MSF but not for a while then at least check out the book at local library!]
If it's dry, as above, both brakes evenly, if it's wet, more front than back. Over here you are taught not to declutch or change down until stopped, or almost so. A "real" emergency stop can be a very hairy experience. I have only ever done two and they were about ten minutes apart for totally seperate incidents at about 30mph (the limit) in the wet. First some plonker decides he's going to turn into his drive no matter what other road users are about and the car in front of me just managed to stop, as did I inches behind him, I then ride on fairly shaken up and a kid with a dog on a lead charges out into the road, missed them too but it does concentrate the mind. Practice everything and hope you never need it.
The first time I had to do that (a cager abruptly switched lane) was really scary. I can feel my heart missed a few beats. As per Pantablo's I normally downshift and apply both brakes instinctly, but when I am focussing on the obstacle in front I cannot seems to let go of the brake lever and this caused the rear wheel to fishtailed violently.
Quote from: kyzee... but when I am focussing on the obstacle in front .
Focus on where you want to go in case you need to make evasive manuvers. Dont fixate on the obstacle (called target fixation).
Case in point: When I almost crashed my friends sv650 ...I came into parking lot too hot and locked up rear on gravel, quickly assessed that I was not going to stop before hitting parked bikes so I let go of brakes completely and looked through my "turn", or the path clearing the bikes...and I missed the last bike by inches.
My friend was not amused.
Point being with more practice you'll less likely freeze up. Also be hyper aware of what you are focusing on. If you were in a curve and thougth you were going wide you wouldnt want to look at the outer edge of road (you'll end up going where you look-target fixation).
Focus on your path-not the obstruction.
Force your attention atleast 2 places at once all the time, never settle in one spot. i know this sounds silly and contradicts what msf says, i realy dont care whats behind me while im going down the road. im traveling away from it. only time im lookin behindme is when changing lanes,slowing down, or im stopped at a light. my attention is focused more to the front andsides of me then anything else when on highway. being as i dont wonder around inmy lane folks seem to feel they can pass me in my lane safly enough. :dunno: go figure
When emergency braking, it's the best to focus on the front brake. Forget the rear brake, it won't work anyway because you're braking so hard that the rear is probably almost off the ground. Forget downshifting too. It prevents you to focus on braking hard.
The hardest part is while braking, looking for a place to get past the obstacle. Try to look a bit around instead of focusing on the "target".
You guys, this is just what i needed to read. I was out most of yesterday riding and a rear wheel skid 10 blocks from home almost ruined a sunny 64 degree 80 mile trip. I remember seeing the light turn yellow and it was my fault that i was going way to fast, but i decided to stop and ending up skidding into the intersection :o :o before finally & completly stopping, it was a long skid with steering adjustments and if i had more experience or practice it would not have happened. :nono: So i will read and practice and hopefully execute emergency braking the right way.
One more tip: you can actually practise emergency braking when not on your bike. Sure it's no substitute for actual experience, but this can help build up the muscle memory involved. You need to concentrate on squeezing the front brake progressively, IE take at least a full second between when you first squeeze it, and before you squeeze it in completely. Make a psuedo-front brake with your index finger and thumb of your left hand. Practise squeezing your finger against your tumb and counting out a full "one-one-thousand" before you squeeze to "full-brake".
This is completely stolen from Hough's "Proficient Motorcycyling", which is chock-full of similarly useful tips.
Hey Cozy
Is Chris DiPinto any relation to the guitar makers of the same name?
Quote from: bbanjoHey Cozy
Is Chris DiPinto any relation to the guitar makers of the same name?
Yepper, sounds like five degrees and counting...
Thought the name sounded familiar. I fronted for a band called Later That Day way back and have heard the name before. :cheers:
There are quite a few views on vision (pardon the pun) or where to look or how. When racing you're always looking for a way to get around the guy in front of you, you pick a line around that guy and follow it past him. Have your exit routes. It is easier to swerve than brake. But when it's not safe to swerve, where you look is where you're gonna go. There is two ways to look at this (had to do it again). You will stop where you look. Go to a parking lot to practice, pick a spot on the ground, this will be your stopping point, drive towards it and emergency stop. You will usually stop before it. On the street, you want to stop before you hit the car. Don't look at the bumper of the car, look at a spot on the ground where you want to stop. Gradually increasing pressure on the brake(s) til you stop. Remember, this is if you can not swerve. The other is taught by MSF, which is to keep your head up, and straight ahead, looking at the horizon. This works exceptionally well when the rear wheel locks up. Because you no longer have traction at the rear, you have less control, steering inputs cause the rear to slide out. Fishtailing is corrective steering inputs, back and forth (er, right and left). Steering inputs are usually what happens when you look in that direction. You steer where you are looking.
Quote from: pantablo...I came into parking lot too hot and locked up rear on gravel, quickly assessed that I was not going to stop before hitting parked bikes so I let go of brakes completely and looked through my "turn", or the path clearing the bikes...and I missed the last bike by inches.
Focus on your path-not the obstruction.
msf taught us not to release the rear break if we lock it up. makes me think i need a dirt bike too. :) ratialization for it....need to learn what it feels like to have the rear sliding around under me all the time. ( ....saying that to myself 100 times....need dirt bike...need dirt bike...)
Think about the physics - but do this when you're sitting at home with a beer, otherwise it takes too long!
When you apply the brake, the force between the front tyre's contact patch and the road acts backwards, trying to slow the bike down. You want it to do this. This force is exerted on the road which is below the level of the front wheel axle (so far - if you're still upright). At the same time, because of momentum, your centre of gravity (CG) still wants to go forwards - this force is exerted above the wheel axle because the CG is higher. The result is a combination of forces that try to rotate you forwards over the front axle, lifting the back of the bike up in the air.
With your back wheel in the air, the rear brake can easily lock the back wheel. Wheel stops spinning, you loose the gyroscopic force that keeps it upright, so now it's just a dead weight up in the air looking for any way to get down. One easy way to do this, because of the geometry of the steering head, is to fold forwards and down, rotating around the front forks. Remember, like you, it's got a whole lot of forward momentum to try and shed somehow, and it can do this and fall at the same time by coming around. If while doing this it can wrench the whole bike over you will soon be kissing the road.
The trick is to try and brake with both brakes to the maximum extent for maximum effect without locking either of the wheels - "keep them gyros rollin' " or it's "rawhide" for you. How much pressure you exert on each brake, front or back, is going to depend on the circumstances of the stop.
two words. parking lot!, downshifting can help a great deal, as far as msf went, (mine anyway), 2nd gear, downshift to 1st, while simultaneously applying firm pressure to both brakes. works damn good if you practice. :thumb:
Quote from: yamahonkawazukitwo words. parking lot!, downshifting can help a great deal, as far as msf went, (mine anyway), 2nd gear, downshift to 1st, while simultaneously applying firm pressure to both brakes. works damn good if you practice. :thumb:
If you're near your traction limit in an emergency stop, you really wouldn't want to clutch out while downshifting, right? Downshift to be ready to go... but no power I would think.
Parking lots... has anyone taken the MSF experienced rider course and found that they should have been practicing their skills every once in a while?
Umm, gyroscopic forces are not what keeps a bike upright, so locking up the rear won't cause a problem that way. Gyroscopic forces are a very second order effect, and not really that important in the scheme of things. Lightweight wheels would be bad if gyro was important, and the carbon fiber wheel guys don't seem to be having any problems.
The typical rear brake accident is to lock it up, it slides out, then the rear brakes is released and the tire regains traction, and launches the rider in a high side. Lots of cruiser accidents like that, since most of them over-use the rear.
I typically just concentrate on the front in the dry, since I know I can get the rear wheel off the ground, and I will just lock the rear with my clumsy left foot. But at high speeds, leading with the rear brake will get some weight shift onto the front tire before applying the front. The front has less load on it at high speeds, because the aero drag center is quite high, and this force is rasing the front wheel. Many bikes top out their forks at high speeds.
And contrary to another comment above, in the wet I use more rear brake. Since the overall braking force available in the wet is lower, you have less weight transfer onto the front tire, leaving the rear tire with more load and hence more braking capability. This applies to gravel or any other low traction surface.
i still practice to check brakes tires&myskill. when i referred to the downshifting, adjust accordingly to your situation. if traction is an issue. also the 2 to 1 is usually done at slow speeds where traction is usually not an issue. i used it (going down from 6th @80ish)to avoid blowing a stop light :oops: firm pressure on both levers, whilst downshifting. :thumb:
Proper advice tells you to use your brakes in conjunction. From my experiences I would definitely use the front brakes (almost exclusively). Mine work real well.
I did have the bad habit of using the rear brake only. My inexperience showed off rather quickly. Lets just say a 15-20 foot fishtail is no fun. The first time I did it was when a truck ahead of me stopped at a yellow light! :x I fishtailed and was able to stop in the lane to the right of him. I sure was glad that lane was open. The second time it happened I was on a busy highway during rush hour in the left lane and the cars started to back up real quick. The SUV in front of me was also caught off guard and swerved to the left shoulder. I fishtailed to the inside again. Everything was in slow motion. I happened to have a another biker directly behind me on his 600cc rice rocket. All I saw was a plume of smoke (presumably from his tires) fly by me. I sure am glad he didn't rear end me.
As far as downshifting you always want to be in the proper gear at all times in case you need to accelerate out of a bad situation. However, be sure not to let out the clutch to soon or else your high revs will lock your rear wheel and you might kill your engine if you panic and don't keep on the throttle.
i think my front tire is crap b/c whenever i emergency brake (about 2 times a day with crazy nyc taxis and crazy drivers who dont care about life) and the tire almost always makes a sound (gRRRRRRRRRRRWWWP!) and sometimes the bike itself gets upset (the front wheel would kinda wanna tankslap? i cant really describe it but once it happened and the bike wanted to drop down on its right side)
i know some of you are questioning my braking skill but i was a wonderful braker (?) at msf and i dont ever grab the front brake....sometimes the tire makes sounds when im barely pulling in the front brake lever
Paui,
your front tire is probably old and dried out. check it for cracks. check the manufacture date on the side...oh, now I've forgotten how to decifer the code...I think its this: there'sa 4 digit number on the side wall (may be last 4 in a grouping) the first 2 digits are the week of the year they were made, the last 2 the year. I think thats right, not sure.
How old is tire anyway?
Not sure if anyone mentioned this but if you lock up the rear tire, keep it locked. The back tire has a habit of sliding out and if it regains traction it could spill you out. The only time I've ever used emergency braking was coming home from school in the rain, a car cut in front of me and braked hard for a stoplight. My back tire locked up. She came about 3-5 inches from having a 17inch radial up her tailpipe :nana: . Because I ride offroad so much, lost traction is second nature to me on 2 wheels. Don't panic, you can stop. It could also help if you shoot between two cars as well.
Quote from: KevinCI typically just concentrate on the front in the dry, since I know I can get the rear wheel off the ground, and I will just lock the rear with my clumsy left foot. But at high speeds, leading with the rear brake will get some weight shift onto the front tire before applying the front.
I'm with Kevin: as you bear on the front binders, ease up on the rear and forget about it: by the time it is useful again, the bike is almost stopped, and the emergency has passed. I think in practice it feels more like a blip of the rear brake, or a firm tap, and then you're off the rear already. When I really bear on the binders, I have shifted all braking to the front wheel in under a half-second.
The front brake is your true friend :) . The rear brake is only there to introduce you to your new dear friend, the front brake.
PS-This was my first season, and I haven't wadded, so I don't really know what I'm talking about.
I have now driven in LA traffic for two days and 400 miles using only my rear break and engine breaking.
Monday morning, one of my brand new front brake pads just broke off. :x
I remember hearing a snap and thinking, what the hell was that ? I pulled over and didn't see any obvious problems.
The single pad up front gripped and sounded fine for the rest of the day :dunno:
Tuesday, it started to make that nasty grinding noise. So, I took a closer look and saw the problem. :o
I remembered this thread and said I'll give it a go with just the rear brake, for kicks and to get a good feel for it. Also, I can't afford to take a week off of work and buy new pads again.
In conclusion, I don't understand why when the front break works great and the rear brakes are not even as good as old timey drum brakes. They lock up way to easy. :roll:
I am fixing to head down to the basement and see if I saved the old pads and throw those on until I can get some new ones.
Alright, I took the brake apart and both pads were there but completly spent after only 900 miles of use. :?
They were non sinthed(sp) KBC's. I am going to check with my mechanic and see what he thinks. :dunno:
Sheesh, John - 900 miles? That's what - one work week at the rate you're going!
I'm trying to remember: were your new pads the EBC Kevlar (or "organic") ones? I got almost 17,000 miles out of my stock front pads, and I'll be ready to replace my EBC Kevlars after about 13,000 miles.
I don't want to go sintered, but I'd like to get a little more "bite" back on the front brakes. The stock Suzuki pads seem to be somewhere in the middle. (Wonder what they're made of....?) Maybe I'll go back to the stock pads next time around, if the price isn't ridiculous.
WARNING!!! DO NOT BUY THESE PADS. They are loud and wear way to fast.
1 4978 EBC KEVLAR BRAKE PADS FA231 Shipped ID: 11/06
This is the parts number of the pads I managed to wear out in less than a months time. Okay, it was more like 2 thousand miles and not 800 :oops: Also, I had been primarily using the front and not even bothering with the rears. I started doing that because my rear pads wore first on the OEM pads and I thought I could work on my use of the front brake. Needless to say I am back to using both.
They were also very noisey. Not that typical high pitch brake noise but something a lot lower like the sound of an electric engine.
This morning I asked the guy who runs Motorcycle Peformance on LaBrea if he had any idea why the pads went so quick. He was at a loss but recomended what I think are refered to as "Sinthered" but it does not say that on the pakage. He also had them in stock which was a bonus since I had them in and was working by 11am.
The new pakage says FA231HH EBC Double-H.
They are gold in color instead of grey like the last ones.
They are almost silent like the stockers even when brand new. So far I am happy with them but I only have 80 miles on them. So judgement is out until I see how long they last.
I just looked up the OEM brake pads on Bikebadit and they were $65 :o
doing any rolling endo's? those will absolutly chew up pads. all my bikes that have hydraulic rear brakes i intentionaly introduce a minute amount of air into the system, i have seen alot of racers do this same thing, for this helps prevent locking up the rear under panic braking. you still have brakeing power and the wheel will lock should it get light enough but it will unlock sooner and have less chance of coming around on you. granted i have gotten out of using the rear brakes except for wet/gravely area's
gyroscopic physics to apply, but not to the extent that everyone belives, i have done rolling endo's with rear wheel locked the minute it leaves the pavment, and there isnt much gyroscopic forces applyed to a 3mph wheelie. traction and ballence is the key forces that play at controling a motorcycle.
Quote from: JohNLAWARNING!!! DO NOT BUY THESE PADS. They are loud and wear way to fast.
EBC KEVLAR BRAKE PADS FA231
Interesting - Those Kevlar pads are the very ones I've been using. Perhaps:
1) You got a defective set?
2) You brake a whole lot more aggressively than I do?
3) There's more left on the pads than it seems?
Quote from: JohNLAThe new pakage says FA231HH EBC Double-H.
...judgement is out until I see how long they last.
I'm more concerned about how long the ROTOR will last with the sintered pads. Am I too out-of-date? Are today's sintered pads more gentle on rotors than I heard in the past?
Quote from: JohNLAI just looked up the OEM brake pads on Bikebadit and they were $65
Hmmm. I guess I won't be going with the OEM pads then. Thanks for checking!
I looked in my toolbox and found that I already HAVE a brand new set of EBC Kevlars waiting to go on. I guess it'll be longer than I thought before I recover some of the "bite" on my front brakes.... But at least I'll be able to compare two sets of EBC Kevlars back-to-back. Could be interesting.
No stopies and one pad was completly gone and the second close behind :o but like I said I was using the front brakes exclusivly in lots of traffic.
Even still 2000 miles is not reasonable. I think maybe I did get a defective set. :dunno:
I am real happy with the new sintered pads. At least it does not sound like a second engine running every time I touch the front brake.
Thanks for the heads up on the rotor wear. I will keep an eye on it.
Thanks Blueknyt, I will look into the air in line trick.
2000 miles, well, not proud of it, but i did burn through 1 set of pads and warped one rotor inside 8 days, it was stoppies and endo's everywhere when i was first learning to do them, the Sliding caliper on the GS flat out sucks, it doesnt "float" enough, i have cleaned and lubed and cleaned and left dry the slides on the caliper so many times, but the caliper still binds alittle on the pins and this contributes to the rotor warping. Fresh lube on the pins helps alittle but not forlong.ive tryed dry grafite lube, lithium, teflon based, never seaze ,and standard grease but they all Gum up after a short time. im still trying to gather parts for katana 600 front end swap out, but, takes $$, something i dont have as of late.