I've been looking to buy a new car for the better part of six months but can not find the model I want with a manual transmission. No manual=no sale. You're about as likely to find a Sasquatch on a dealer lot as to find a car with a stick shift.
As far as I can tell, the best vehicle theft deterrent system is a manual transmission.
I was relating this to a friend recently. He said that he would never buy a manual transmission vehicle because he does not know how to drive one...yet he rides a motorcycle. :icon_question:
Is this normal? I realize the two processes aren't identical but the theory of operation is pretty much the same.
I would say it is not normal. I learned to ride a dirt bike when I was a young kid and the first time I drove a manual transmission truck it took about 5 minutes to figure it out.
Seems a little odd. I learned to ride a motorcycle after I learned to drive a stick, and the general principles carried over.
I suspect your friend could probably pick it up in a parking lot without much trouble. I guess hill starts are a little less disconcerting on a bike, but that'd be about it.
I was exactly the same I was sick of autos. After I bought my manual I hot my Gs. Must say everything is mostly the same principals of operation.
This might sound dumb but people have trouble taking their hand of the wheel and working out where to move the gear stick too. At least on a bike all hands and feet are roughly in the right spot and its just up or down. Not forward and across, back and across, all the way across etc. Watch auto drivers and quite often they look down at the selector before they change it.
Me I love a manual car. I stuck a five speed in my project car. Have converted more than one previous vehicle to manual (autos being cheaper to buy with the parts to change them, go figure) and plan to get a 6 speed for the 260Z when I can afford one.
i think the only thing that transfers over from car to bike is the clutch, everything else is reversed almost, brakes are all feet gas is foot, gears are sequential instead of H pattern and so on. But that's also a good thing because being able to feel a clutch is 90% of driving a manual.
I learned to drive on an auto. And I think That is wise as it is one less thing for a learner to have to figure out. Six months after I had my license I got myself a manual, taught myself how to change gears, etc., and have had them ever since.
In the state I came from, a license was a license. But the state I am in now, if you do the test on an auto you are not allowed to drive a manual.
It's funny, cause years and years ago, if you wanted a car it was manual as standard. Now it's auto as standard and good luck finding a manual.
As for changing gears etc. I could ride a m'bike but had never driven a manual car. And even though I could get the foot movements right, smoothness was to come later. Like crzy said, operating a manual smoothly is about being able to Feel the clutch.
Michael
Don't like car manual stick. Way too hard to stop then start up again going up a hill. On a bike, you can keep your foot on the rear brake to keep from rolling backwards. On a car - foot on gas, foot on clutch = no ability to keep the brakes on.
The up/down of bike shifting is so much easier than wiggling around some dumb stick to try to get it into gear.
No gear grinding on a bike. Funny to watch movies with people driving a POS truck always grinding gears.
You can feel a clutch better with a hand than a foot in a shoe. Feet are not as sensitive as fingers (except for those with no arms who have had to learn to use their feet for everything.)
Bikes are sooooooo much easier.
Have a 2001 Honda CRV (in that typical dark green they call came in). People know when I'm having a bad day: raining so hard I had to use the car. I go into bike withdrawal really easy. I ride nearly every day, except when I have to use the car (like going to Costco, carrying motorcycle frames from office to home or a very heavy rain.)
That's my opinion.
Quote from: adidasguy on September 27, 2011, 12:46:19 PM
Don't like car manual stick. Way too hard to stop then start up again going up a hill. On a bike, you can keep your foot on the rear brake to keep from rolling backwards. On a car - foot on gas, foot on clutch = no ability to keep the brakes on.
The principles of a hill start are that you put the handbrake on, allowing you to take your foot off the brake and over the accelerator. When you want to head off have your hand slowly releasing the handbrake and whola.... you're off. Easy as once you've done a few :)
Quote from: adidasguy on September 27, 2011, 12:46:19 PM
The up/down of bike shifting is so much easier than wiggling around some dumb stick to try to get it into gear.
No gear grinding on a bike. Funny to watch movies with people driving a POS truck always grinding gears.
You can feel a clutch better with a hand than a foot in a shoe. Feet are not as sensitive as fingers (except for those with no arms who have had to learn to use their feet for everything.)
Personally the gear stick is no problems when you've worked it out. If you get a good manual vehicle it usually just slips into the next gear. Grinding gears means the clutch kit probably needs replacing. Sounds like it's worn, or the driver is a POS driver.
Quote from: missk8t on September 27, 2011, 04:04:01 PM
The principles of a hill start are that you put the handbrake on, allowing you to take your foot off the brake and over the accelerator. When you want to head off have your hand slowly releasing the handbrake and whola.... you're off. Easy as once you've done a few :)
Way too difficult for this old blond.
Hand brake? Do they still have those? Thought they were foot brakes on the far left with a single handle that releases it. So I take hands off the wheel to play with a hand brake and shift while doing other things with the feet? :dunno_black:
I'm in Seattle - not the other side of the state with the Hanford Nuclear Reservation, so I ain't radiated and not gots three of dem feets things to make it work. :cookoo: So we gots a make-it-go pedal, stop pedal, grind gears pedal and a hand-brake pedal?
There's a reason god invented automatic transmissions for cars. :thumb: I ain't got them country smarts for them there sticky shifty thing-a-ma-bobs.
(PS: I can walk and chew gum, though I don't like gum.)
Ah well, sometimes you just can't teach an old dog new tricks no matter how hard you try :technical:
Hands up all the truck drivers out there who can drive a dog box? Ie roadranger.
Quote from: aussiegs on September 27, 2011, 06:49:20 PM
Hands up all the truck drivers out there who can drive a dog box? Ie roadranger.
I will half raise my hand. Been quite a while since I drove one so not sure I could comfortably say I could drive it well.
And adidasguy, did no one ever seriously explain a handbrake to you? Or heel and toe? Or even just grabbing the friction point so the car is carrying the weight on the clutch (not good for long life of clutch) and then switching from brake to gas?
I love the feel of a manual for driving. Just the control through the corners makes it worth it. I do however quite like modern autos that have engine braking abilities, for hills or off gas application. Have not driven enough cars with sport shifting autos to make a statement on them.
I just saw the new vette is coming with a 7 speed. I wonder if that will bolt up behind my engine in my car......
Apparently zf have made a 9 speed auto tranny.
I'll put up my hand to a roadranger.
@addy: modern clutches in cars have a synchromesh, the roadranger clutch in a truck does not. So when you change gears you go...
Clutch in
Put into neutral
Clutch out briefly
Clutch back in
put into gear
clutch out
You do that sequence in each gear. To down shift you...
clutch in
put into neutral
clutch out
give burst on accelerator and come off
clutch back in
put into lower gear
clutch out
And when you are advanced, you only use the clutch for starts. The rest of the time you get lazy and just do the motions without the clutch and it works. If you get it wrong, then, like in the movies, the gears go a crunching.
Lke Shadow said, on a hill you can...
Use a handbrake or
balance the car with gravity wanting to pull the car back down the hill and clutch plate friction to make the car go up the hill or
Keep you foot on the brake and when you want to go you go from brake to accelerator and depress while releasing the clutch - the car goes back a small bit but otherwise quite doable.
Even if you don't own a manual it pays to know how to drive one. You just never know when someone's life might depend on your ability to operate the vehicle and if a manual is all that's available...
Michael
The bloke I got my truck licence through wouldn't let me go clutchless but I was skipping two gears at a time. My downchanges are still a little rough from time to time.
Quote from: aussiegs on September 28, 2011, 03:19:56 AM
The bloke I got my truck licence through wouldn't let me go clutchless but I was skipping two gears at a time. My downchanges are still a little rough from time to time.
Two gears up, like when going down a grade, sure thing. Two gears down is much trickier cause of the speed differential - doable but trickier. And usually not really needed. Quite possible to roll up to lights in the lowest gear of the top box, or near top gear of the bottom box and just before stopping and stalling, clutch in and neutral, then go into whatever gear you want (1st?) while stopped. As long as the truck is still moving it generally will not stall.
Michael
Yeah that's one thing that surprised me didn't stall I rolled up to lights in 6th, mind you 9 speed box
Quote from: XealotX on September 26, 2011, 03:49:15 PM
I've been looking to buy a new car for the better part of six months but can not find the model I want with a manual transmission. No manual=no sale. You're about as likely to find a Sasquatch on a dealer lot as to find a car with a stick shift.
As far as I can tell, the best vehicle theft deterrent system is a manual transmission.
I was relating this to a friend recently. He said that he would never buy a manual transmission vehicle because he does not know how to drive one...yet he rides a motorcycle. :icon_question:
Is this normal? I realize the two processes aren't identical but the theory of operation is pretty much the same.
seen this before and i chuckle. same situation. i tell htem you have a dirtbike wiht a clutch, a throttle and a gear selsctor. same process. you can learn in about 5 minutes in a gravel parking lot. you made a mistake, you sling rocks. youire doing good 1 if youre moving, and hadnt slung 1 rock
Ive always owned a manual car... and I found it really helped when learning to ride my motorcycle. I've owned my motorcycle about 4 months (1st time owner) and I can probably count the number of times I've stalled it on one hand.
My best friend has never driven a manual car, and teaching him to ride my bike is a pain in the ass. (especially considering he is a very fast learner and a bright guy) Its just a concept that he has never had to give a second thought about...especially while his main concern is trying to make sure he doesn't fall over.
Quote from: lucky4034 on September 28, 2011, 07:50:27 PM
My best friend has never driven a manual car, and teaching him to ride my bike is a pain in the ass. (especially considering he is a very fast learner and a bright guy) Its just a concept that he has never had to give a second thought about...especially while his main concern is trying to make sure he doesn't fall over.
My best friend has never rode a bike and probably never will (at least not mine). I tried to teach him to drive my manual car and he was concentrating on shifting so much that he manage to put us in the ditch! I would hate to let him crash my new bike. If he ever has the desire to ride a bike I will convince my dad to rebuild his old yamaha gt80.
I only drive 5 speeds, and motorcycles just make sense. The move from 5-speed -> motorcycle is easier than motorcycle -> 5 speed.
The principle of operation is the same, but the principle of operation from walking -> running is also the same though the actual implementation is entirely different.
Unless you drive a top-end F1 car, your car probably has a synchronous manual transmission. This transmission affords you the ability to select any gear at any time. Learning on this requires vastly more concentration than on a motorcycle, and gives you plenty more opportunities to permanently damage your car (or someone else's). You have to know more about your gearing in that particular car to know which gear to be in at any time. Also, as a novice, it's fairly easy to shift into the wrong gear (ex - on an American car it's easy to try to shift into 5th, miss it, and ram your shift lever into 3rd by accident). I did it a few times while I was learning to ride a 5 speed and took the car from Highway speed to Grandma in 5 seconds flat (4th in the power-band to 3rd). On top of this you have to deal with a dry clutch. Far less forgiving.
On the other side you have motorcycles. Most of them (save Ducatis and one-offs) have wet clutches, which are more forgiving when it comes to poor shifts. The gearbox in a motorcycle is sequential, so it's nearly impossible to overshift because one click up or down is all you can do without moving your foot again to reset the lever. You still need to track your gears but less attention can be paid to them as a novice and you'll do fine. You can still damage your bike by mis-shifting up or down but the example I gave of a shifting mistake above would be near impossible without intentionally doing it.
Point in case:
Motorcycles have gearboxes that make sense and are typically more forgiving.
Cars have gearboxes that make sense until you miss a gear and destroy your transmission/lug your car to 0.
I'd recommend not trying to adapt anything from a motorcycle to a car and learning from scratch. The habits you learn on a motorcycle are most likely based around a wet clutch so all the cool clutch-control techniques you learn to keep your bike alive at low speeds will burn out your clutch on a car VERY quick.
Here (UK) the vast majority of cars are manual. Obviously the principle is the same as on the bike but the technique is a bit different. The biggest differences are hill starts (but that can be mastered in about ten minutes.) and very slow progress, walking pace stuff, on a bike you are slipping the clutch deliberately which is not usually required on four wheels.
We also have the rule that if you pass your test in an auto you can only drive an auto, pass in a manual and drive either.
I don't think there are any devils lurking, anyone can drive a manual and I much prefer the feeling of being in total control.
I just sold my 97 formula firebird ws6 which had a 6-speed, it was my first car and I had never driven a stick before i went to test drive it before i bought it, but i knew how to drive one, and i didnt make any mistakes lol. Lots of grand turismo as a teenager will do that i guess :icon_rolleyes: . But now that its gone Im looking for a cheaper car for bad weather and a gs for every other possible driving condition :thumb: Once again i know how to operate the shifter/clutch/etc on a bike but have not yet ridden, but Im not worried about it. knowing is half the battle ;)
Dumb question: In a right hand drive car, are the peddles in the same order as a left hand drive? (Left to right- clutch, brake, gas) I'm sure shifting with my left hand while steering with my right would throw me off.
-Jessie
Sure is the same. Yeah I reckon shifting with my right hand would throw me, steering with either hand doesn't worry me.
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on October 05, 2011, 07:24:11 PM
Dumb question: In a right hand drive car, are the peddles in the same order as a left hand drive? (Left to right- clutch, brake, gas) I'm sure shifting with my left hand while steering with my right would throw me off.
-Jessie
I had the luxury of driving a manual dodge viper in Canada a few months ago. It took me less then 5 minutes to get used to where the stick was. Took me 15 mins before I got used to the power. It was freaking awesome!!!
We have left hand drive vehicles at work. Takes a few minutes to get used to driving on the left with a left hand drive vehicle Without wondering over to the right.
Michael
Never thought about it before but I guess your delivery drivers are tan on their right arm :laugh:
-Jessie
yes drivers tan is on the right arm over here, i get it when driving from sydney to lismore and back
Quote from: dohabee on September 26, 2011, 04:36:35 PM
I would say it is not normal. I learned to ride a dirt bike when I was a young kid and the first time I drove a manual transmission truck it took about 5 minutes to figure it out.
Same situation for me. I will NEVER own a manual car as long as I can help it. Its just far too boring.
Quote from: Twism86 on October 06, 2011, 06:46:07 AM
Quote from: dohabee on September 26, 2011, 04:36:35 PM
I would say it is not normal. I learned to ride a dirt bike when I was a young kid and the first time I drove a manual transmission truck it took about 5 minutes to figure it out.
Same situation for me. I will NEVER own a manual car as long as I can help it. Its just far too boring.
A manual car is more boring than an Auto? Did you mistype what you actually wanted to say or you really think manuals are boring?
Michael
Yeah what drugs legal or not are you on?
Quote from: Twism86 on October 06, 2011, 06:46:07 AM
Quote from: dohabee on September 26, 2011, 04:36:35 PM
I would say it is not normal. I learned to ride a dirt bike when I was a young kid and the first time I drove a manual transmission truck it took about 5 minutes to figure it out.
Same situation for me. I will NEVER own a manual car as long as I can help it. Its just far too boring.
SAY WHAT?
Learned to drive a stick at 13 or 14 when my bro-in-law threw me in the drivers seat on a hill and said, here's what to do.....
I knew at that point how to drive a stick from there on. Its really not that hard, and becoming a bit of a lost art.
Man hill starts are easy, the way I taught my Fiance is to hold the brake and pull out the clutch till you feel it pull, then let off the brake and give it some gas.. no problems
I don't even use that anymore, I'm fast enough with the clutch to be pulling it out while I'm letting off the brake and moving to the gas before I ever roll back.
I drove a manual tranmission car for quite a few years. Learning to ride the gs500 was easy, as soon as I got over the "shift with your FOOT, not your hand" thing. :-) almost zero stalls.
it can be more fun than automatic. However, for those people who think it gives you "more control/performance" blah blah, here's a little true story.
(please skip if you dont like driving simulators :) )
For those who dont know, "gran turismo" is the undisputed king of car racing simulation. It runs on a PS3 these days. You can buy cockpit replic steering wheels and shifter stuffs (with foot pedals)
The maker has had this competition, where they let people compete head to head, online, and then eventually lets the winner become a REAL racecar driver. (not merely go once around a racetrack, but actually get a spot on a professional racing team!)
They call it "gran turismo academy"
http://us.gran-turismo.com/us/academy/2011/
How it works in the first round is, they put the tracks online, and then let people record best lap times. You get real time rankings. After a month or so, the best 16 times or so, move on to the next round. Thousands of people compete in this. The longer a track has been online, the tigher the times get.
Predictably, the top spots are usually manua transmission.
*BUT* !
I was off work for a few days, and tried my hand at it. With an automatic transmission.
Turns out, I once was able to best the #1 driver's recorded lap, over the 1st mile. (and stay pretty close to it most of the other runs).
It was really more about learning the track, and millisecond response times, than anything magical about having a manual transmission.
If I had all the free time that these young hooligans had to learn the track, I'd probably have gotten competition ranked.
(as it was, I "only" managed near the top 1000 though. sigh)
...Automatic transmission? What's that?
Actually I must be one of the very few people in this forum who never drove an auto - learnt to drive on a stick (as do 99,9% of people here) in '97.
I'd be quite curious about driving one at least once, though.
Many swear after autos and say 'once you try you'll never go back', I for myself considered to get an auto when buying a new car but higher selling price put me off - and besides, here it's nearly impossible to spec a small Diesel/LPG/CNG-powered hatchback (which is what I was looking for) with an auto tranny.
Taking off on a hill - yes, for a beginner stick driver it can surely be challenging. But once you learn to play with clutch, gas, and handbrake it becomes second nature. Even for a dumb@ss like me. :D
It may seem strange but I personally find a bit harder to coordinate my rear brake foot and clutch hand when taking off on a hill on my bike.
Technically, if you're GOOD at it, you can start from hill without handbrake. But it takes skills akin to doing rabbit starts from a race starting line. and I hear it's bad for the clutch if you do itmore than occasionally
I would love an automatic when I'm stuck in Baltimore rush hour traffic...
-Jessie
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on November 28, 2011, 01:52:59 PM
I would love an automatic when I'm stuck in Baltimore rush hour traffic...
-Jessie
I do not miss that at all. ;)
Autos rule in peak hour traffic.
Any slipping of the clutch is wearing it. Doing hill starts that ride the clutch effectively burning. Think of the clutch just like a brake, basically the same setup, like applications are just rubbing to full on grab. So hill starts using allot of clutch is slowly wearing it away faster than say a smooth, hill toe or handbrake take off.
Or the amazing and clever idea in my Subaru, a hill holder. Hold clutch in, press brake release it car stays stationary if it senses it's on an incline. Brakes hold the car till the clutch pedal comes out to the grab point and automatically releases the brakes.
When my manual car died and I purchased an automatic, it took a couple of days to get out of the habit of my left foot pressing down and my right hand reaching for nothing when I'd pull out from a stop.
Has anybody here every ridden a bike with a suicide clutch? What was it like?
Quote from: XealotX on September 26, 2011, 03:49:15 PM
I've been looking to buy a new car for the better part of six months but can not find the model I want with a manual transmission. No manual=no sale. You're about as likely to find a Sasquatch on a dealer lot as to find a car with a stick shift.
As far as I can tell, the best vehicle theft deterrent system is a manual transmission.
I was relating this to a friend recently. He said that he would never buy a manual transmission vehicle because he does not know how to drive one...yet he rides a motorcycle. :icon_question:
Is this normal? I realize the two processes aren't identical but the theory of operation is pretty much the same.
Geez, as long as the operator has two working hands and a working right foot he can ride a motorcycle. As you know the only difference is which appendage operates which function. I adapted easily, and I learned to drive a manual car first.
After having lost the use of my LEFT foot/leg for a while, allow me to tell you that it is also pretty durn important too! :-/
Quote from: aussiegs on November 29, 2011, 07:39:38 PM
Or the amazing and clever idea in my Subaru, a hill holder. Hold clutch in, press brake release it car stays stationary if it senses it's on an incline. Brakes hold the car till the clutch pedal comes out to the grab point and automatically releases the brakes.
Toyota has a feature like that on some of their automatics for some unknown reason :cookoo:
-Jessie