http://mota.no.sapo.pt/bikes/GS500E/gs500e.html
http://mota.no.sapo.pt/bikes/GS500E/dyno1_big.jpg
Just for interesting info...a couple of nice dyno runs on GS500 stock and modified....
Power is flat from 8000 to 10000
Rest of the website is nice too.....makes you think the GS 500 is best motorcycle ever!
Cookie
Nice. but do note the separate torque graph. Most definitely NOT flat between 8-10k
(http://mota.no.sapo.pt/bikes/GS500E/dyno2_big.jpg)
And, for why people care:
http://www.vettenet.org/torquehp.html
"Any given car, in any given gear, will accelerate at a rate that *exactly* matches its torque curve "
presumably, you can exactly substitute "motorcycle" for "car", and the same applies.
Yeah, the GS is really cammed for good midrange performance. Torque falls on it's face above 8K RPM.
I have a dyno chart with AF/Torque/HP for my stock GS500. Was slowly dieing when it was taken, but really shows how bad torque suffers up top. Will post it up.
Quote from: Phil B on September 28, 2011, 11:35:20 AM
Nice. but do note the separate torque graph. Most definitely NOT flat between 8-10k
(http://mota.no.sapo.pt/bikes/GS500E/dyno2_big.jpg)
And, for why people care:
http://www.vettenet.org/torquehp.html
"Any given car, in any given gear, will accelerate at a rate that *exactly* matches its torque curve "
presumably, you can exactly substitute "motorcycle" for "car", and the same applies.
well...ya gotta read that whole website...and the follow ups.........basically the conclustion is HP is the KING........torque is handled by gearing..
ya also gotta figure where the torque goes when you shift form one gear to the next higher gear.
Another conclusion is the further up the rpm for the max torque the better...this makes sense...but makes a hard bike to ride.......needs close range gears, and always high RPM....
The guy on the other website points out, that even as the torque starts to drop off as RPM go higher in a cetrain gear...it is still better to take that gear all the way to redline before shifting...because the torque at the next higher gear is lower than even that....
Cookie
http://www.allpar.com/eek/hp-vs-torque.html
Here's the guy who kind of disputes the torque deal..........
The thing about he GS500 is we have more gears...and a pretty wide operatining range of RPM....and a petty flat power curve......
Cookie
http://www.datsuns.com/Tech/whentoshift.htm
Here's a guy who is big on the torque curve deal...but ends up contraticting himself at the end....
He starts off saying you have to shift so as to bracket the max torque...but ends up saying you have to bracket the max HP...
Hmmmmmmmmmmm.
Cookie
http://www.welltall.com/ymc/discovery/car/shiftpt.html
Yet another site......
Everybody seems to agree on two major points
1. acceleration follows the torque curve (i.e. the Most torque gives the greatest acceleration)
2. The optimal shift point is redline..........because it puts you at the highest posible torque on average.
Cookie
And every single one of those articles come to the wrong conclusion, especially when applied to motorcycles. If you map the torque curve of the GS to the gear ratios, you'll find that the optimal shift point (the point where the next gear delivers more driving force to the wheel) comes well before redline. This is true on most RR bikes, nevermind the GS500.
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0402_art/index.html
On most bikes, the optimal shift-point for acceleration out of 1st is at the rev limiter. For each gear beyond that, the shift point moves closer and closer to torque peak.
Generally, torque comes a few thousand RPM before redline on most street tuned bikes. Horsepower peak comes between redline and torque peak, and power falls off a cliff before you reach redline. The purpose of redline is not to act as a shift point, but to warn you that you are reaching an engine speed that is likely to result in engine damage. A little over-rev is typically provided above peak power, for situations where a shift is not desirable, but the driver needs to stay on the throttle E.g. extreme cornering, especially on a motorcycle where leaning lowers the effective gearing ratio of the bike.
Edit: Post is in error, updated post available below.
Quote from: burning1 on September 28, 2011, 01:17:32 PM
And every single one of those articles come to the wrong conclusion, especially when applied to motorcycles. If you map the torque curve of the GS to the gear ratios, you'll find that the optimal shift point (the point where the next gear delivers more driving force to the wheel) comes well before redline. This is true on most RR bikes, nevermind the GS500.
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0402_art/index.html
On most bikes, the optimal shift-point for acceleration out of 1st is at the rev limiter. For each gear beyond that, the shift point moves closer and closer to torque peak.
Generally, torque comes a few thousand RPM before redline on most street tuned bikes. Horsepower peak comes between redline and torque peak, and power falls off a cliff before you reach redline. The purpose of redline is not to act as a shift point, but to warn you that you are reaching an engine speed that is likely to result in engine damage. A little over-rev is typically provided above peak power, for situations where a shift is not desirable, but the driver needs to stay on the throttle E.g. extreme cornering, especially on a motorcycle where leaning lowers the effective gearing ratio of the bike.
Best article so far......takes some factors which are particular to motorcycles (comapred to cars) into account..........
Cookie
Quote from: burning1 on September 28, 2011, 02:07:23 PM
I just ran the numbers using the Sport Rider spreadsheet, using the dyno chart posted above for a stock GS500, stock gearing, 140/70/17 rear tire.
The GS has a very midrange heavy power curve, and a big jump in gearing ratios between 4th and 5th. It results in some interesting shift points.
1st > 2nd - Shift at redline - Typical, 1st is much much lower than 2nd.
2nd > 3rd - Ideal shift is 9850RPM - this one is pretty important, a little over-rev is okay, but you suffer above 10500.
3rd > 4th - Ideal shift is anywhere between 8500 and 10250 - it doesn't make much of a difference, but you suffer above 10250.
4th > 5th - Ideal shift point is 10,100RPM - There isn't much room for over-rev, and as typical you suffer above 10500 or so.
5th > 6th - Ideal shift point is anywhere between 9050 & redline.
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii63/ctbarbour/gs500-shift-chart-stock.jpg)
This more or less mirrors my experience racing the GS - in stock form, it *really* doesn't benefit from being revved to the moon... Though had I charted this out, I probably would have modified my 4th to 5th strategy a little.
Nice!!
Interesting findings...like sort of uneven gear spacing....lot of revs available beyond peak HP...not necessarily useful.....
But...shift points seam to bridge the max HP point (plateau on GS500) or even to the high side of the HP max(9000 to 10,000), but way above the the max torque point (7500).
Again its the "driving force" at the rear wheel not the engine torque...
Cookie
You'll notice in the chart... The ideal shift point almost always lands you at torque peak in the next gear up. So, when shifting, think less about where you are in the power band, and more about where you're going to end up.
Shift points will always be above max torque peak, and will typically be a little above maximum horsepower. Remember, with a flat torque curve horsepower increases with RPM, and for horsepower to fall as revs increase, torque has to be falling off so fast that with each RPM, any increase in engine speed reduces torque more than it increases horsepower.
The ideal shift point typically occurs when torque has fallen off so much, that the reduction in driving force by shifting up a gear is more than compensated for by the reduction in engine speed moving us back towards torque peak. As you can see from the above chart, the crossover point typically occurs well past torque peak, but what you'll also notice is that in each gear, the ideal shift point almost always puts you at or near torque peak in the *next* gear up.
Another perspective of torque and horsepower.
Humans make surprisingly large amounts of torque; a typical 140lb rider will produce something on the order of 80ft lbs of force at the crank of a bicycle during the strongest part of their stroke. However, we can't really pedal so fast... Our ideal cadence (RPM) is about 90 in most cases, and a typical maximum is often around 150 or so. So, despite producing gobs of torque, we don't produce huge amounts of power... Our example rider here, only makes about 1.3 HP at 90RPM.
Because we really can't spin the crank so fast, we have to significantly gear up the output of the rider. So, for example, at 30MPH, we might only produce 15lbs of driving force at the rear wheel, vs the GS500s 550lbs (using a calculated gain ratio of 9.4 and a 140lb rider standing on the pedal.)
Torque peak it's self isn't so important - what's most interesting is the torque curve, because that shows how much power is produced over the entire range of engine speeds.
Think about it this way: If you have a bullet and a rock and you've got to throw something, choose the rock. If you have a rock and a loaded gun, always choose the gun.
Quote from: burning1 on September 28, 2011, 03:22:54 PM
You'll notice in the chart... The ideal shift point almost always lands you at torque peak in the next gear up. So, when shifting, think less about where you are in the power band, and more about where you're going to end up.
Shift points will always be above max torque peak, and will typically be a little above maximum horsepower. Remember, with a flat torque curve horsepower increases with RPM, and for horsepower to fall as revs increase, torque has to be falling off so fast that with each RPM, any increase in engine speed reduces torque more than it increases horsepower.
The ideal shift point typically occurs when torque has fallen off so much, that the reduction in driving force by shifting up a gear is more than compensated for by the reduction in engine speed moving us back towards torque peak. As you can see from the above chart, the crossover point typically occurs well past torque peak, but what you'll also notice is that in each gear, the ideal shift point almost always puts you at or near torque peak in the *next* gear up.
Another perspective of torque and horsepower.
Humans make surprisingly large amounts of torque; a typical 140lb rider will produce something on the order of 80ft lbs of force at the crank of a bicycle during the strongest part of their stroke. However, we can't really pedal so fast... Our ideal cadence (RPM) is about 90 in most cases, and a typical maximum is often around 150 or so. So, despite producing gobs of torque, we don't produce huge amounts of power... Our example rider here, only makes about 1.3 HP at 90RPM.
Because we really can't spin the crank so fast, we have to significantly gear up the output of the rider. So, for example, at 30MPH, we might only produce 15lbs of driving force at the rear wheel, vs the GS500s 550lbs (using a calculated gain ratio of 9.4 and a 140lb rider standing on the pedal.)
Torque peak it's self isn't so important - what's most interesting is the torque curve, because that shows how much power is produced over the entire range of engine speeds.
Think about it this way: If you have a bullet and a rock and you've got to throw something, choose the rock. If you have a rock and a loaded gun, always choose the gun.
all good points...a little optimsitic for the bike rider....1.3 HP would probably be World champion...most novice riders are at about 1/4 Hp....most good riders in the 1/2 HP range ....1Hp only possible for short bursts or champions...
Little HP means need for lots of gears...like 21 speeds for modern Bicycleses...(little HP but fairly big speed range...certainly from 0 to 40 MPH and higher down hill...........
Motorcycles get by with 5 or 6 gears
cars with 4 or 5
Old cars: three speeds
Old V8 often had two speed automatic trans....(plenty of Hp and torque and who cared about economy back then?)
Cookie
BTW... It looks like there is some parts compatibility between the GS500 transmission, and the SV650/DL650 (and probably 1000) transmission. Could be useful for racers, especially combined with a high output engine to even out the 4th gear spacing. I'll do some more research and see if one of those bikes has a suitable cog that might be swapped in place of ours.
Quote from: burning1 on September 28, 2011, 02:07:23 PM
I just ran the numbers using the Sport Rider spreadsheet, using the dyno chart posted above for a stock GS500, stock gearing, 140/70/17 rear tire.
Awesome chart, thanks!
but might you rework it, for a fully stock 130/70/17 rear tire?
PS:
Quote from: burning1 on September 28, 2011, 02:07:23 PM
1st > 2nd - Shift at redline - Typical, 1st is much much lower than 2nd.
2nd > 3rd - Ideal shift is 9850RPM - this one is pretty important, a little over-rev is okay, but you suffer above 10500.
3rd > 4th - Ideal shift is anywhere between 8500 and 10250 - it doesn't make much of a difference, but you suffer above 10250.
4th > 5th - Ideal shift point is 10,100RPM - There isn't much room for over-rev, and as typical you suffer above 10500 or so.
5th > 6th - Ideal shift point is anywhere between 9050 & redline.
Looking at that chart, it rather seems that, depending on your top speed target, either 4th gear is irrelevant, or 3rd is. Seems like if you're heading for 100mph+, you may as well just redline 3rd, and then go straight to 5th? :D
I'll run the numbers tomorrow for a 130/70/17, but I expect that while it will change the speed you shift at, it won't actually affect the RPM, and even then, I wouldn't expect it to make a major difference.
You could shift straight from 3rd to 5th, but I think you'd benefit more from a good speed shift through fourth than you would a double clutched shift from 3rd to 5th, since there really doesn't seem to be a real benefit from skipping 4th.
One obvious conclusion from this chart is that if you are going for top speed, it probably doesn't make sense to shift into 6th with stock gearing. IIRC, the GS won't do more than 115 or so stock, anyway.
The thing that looks interesting to me is that from a pure performance perspective, you could leave out 3rd and 5th. What little you'd lose would (I think) be more than compensated for by two less shifts. This is assuming a re-worked shift drum so that you'd only have four gears.
This actually reinforces my pet hate with the GS, the 6-speed box. Its obvious from the chart that 5 well-chosen ratios would be more than enough for a stock GS (and probably a lot of other bikes).
Extra gear ratios are just a fashion thing...race bikes have more gears, so its 'cool' to do the same on a road bike, except that the race engine has a narrow torque band and might actually need them.
Lots of good stuff coming out of the chart and this discussion!
The torque/shift point chart, of course represents a (racer) rider in a drag race or on a long straight after a tight (slow) corner.....
If we were to look at the shift points I use in recreational riding...or (worse) the upshifts recommended in the manual..
1 to 2 @ 12 MPH
2 to 3 @ 19 MPH
3 to 4 @ 25 MPH
4 to 5 @ 31 MPH
5 to 6 @ 37 MPH
We're already in 6th and not even past the first gear speed on the chart!!! (but I guess that would be driving like Grandma)
I notice also that the chart begins at 20 MPH........I think the idea of going to a lower overall ratio (15 th) would benefit at speeds lower than 20...like zero to 5 or zero to 10MPH..(I would think that for drag racing, that first 0 to 20 would be almost as improtant as the rest of the curves)
I am too dumb to figure how to do these plots.....But I would like to see one with the standard tires and gearing, and one with a 15 th .......to see if it really makes any significant difference......and then to consider recreational riding vs racing.......
I think for recreational riding you can pretty much pick (almost) any gear at any time!
1st goes from 0 to 48
2nd goes from 12 to 67
3rd goes from 19 to 86
4th goes from 25 to 95
5th goes from 31 to 125 (theoretical)
6th goes from 37 to 141 (theoretical or down hill, down wind)
I would say that most of us ride somewhere in between the "granny shifts" shown in the owners manual, and the "all out race shifts" shown in the torque curve shift point chart. For recreational riders, don't think the actual gear ratios, nor the actual shift points make a bit of difference. (The most I'm ever gonna do is downshift and rev up to like 8500 to pass somebody, or get out of somebody's way...........Or just once in a while for fun.......
Cookie
Mmmm, first of all a change to a 15T front sprocket with stock tire sizes puts your top gear ratio about half way between stock 6th and 5th gear ratios and might just suit your everyday riding needs best or it might just correct for a larger rear tire size like it presently does for me. A change to a 14T front sprocket gives a 6th gear ratio approx equal to the stock 5th gear and you might just as well drop a gear and roll on. Back when I rode with some big twin friends a lot I would just leave my GS in 5th gear on the freeways to match their roll on speeds, worked nicely.
Those graphs of burning1 showing optimal rpm ranges are very interesting but a lot to remember. Back in the mountain years I would just keep my stock GS between 7-9k rpm sometimes for hours on end and found that to give best GS performance, with a modified GS maybe 7-10k rpm would work nicely. Contrary to some of the GS dyno graphs published here all of the ones I've seen over the years show stock GS HP peaking at about 8500 rpm and dropping sharply after that Shifting a GS at 10% over peak, about 9-9.5k rpm, will drop you down right on top of the torque curve around it's 7k rpm peak. Best you can do with a stock GS I think, get a 600 if you need more.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/jcp8832/GS500gearing-sprocket-rpms.jpg)
I can't imagine shifting at the speeds shown in the owner's manuals, my 97 wouldn't even start to pull below the 4k rpm needed for a smooth launch, the 02 pulled from 3k with it's 3 circuit carbs.
Okay: I have some good news for everyone. I actually botched the last chart, and accidentally put in the wrong 4th gear ratio. The GS gearing is actually pretty sane from the factory, and fairly easy to deal with. Below is an updated chart, using the stock 130/70/17 rear tire.
I just ran the numbers using the Sport Rider spreadsheet, using the dyno chart posted above for a stock GS500, stock gearing, 130/70/17 rear tire.
Because of the GS500's very midrange heavy power-curve, the bike really doesn't benefit from being run at red-line, even in 1st gear.
1st > 2nd - Ideal shift is at 10.5K RPM
2nd > 6th - Ideal shift is at 10K RPM.
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii63/ctbarbour/gs500-shift-chart-stock-1.jpg)
This more or less mirrors my experience racing the GS - in stock form, it *really* doesn't benefit from being revved to the moon.
With a 140/70/17, the ideal shift points are pretty similar, and there isn't as much benefit in revving out 1st gear.
1st > 2nd - 10.25K RPM
2nd > 6th - 10K RPM
With a 150/70/17, the ideal shift points compress further, and 10K is pretty much ideal in every gear. It's worth noting that if you plan to run a 150 profile rear tire, it's probably worth using a larger rear sprocket to increase your gearing ratio to compensate.
Here's a shift chart for a bike running a 1 tooth smaller front sprocket, and 2 tooth larger rear. While cruising RPMs suffer a lot (you'll be at 6.5K RPM at 65MPH in 6th,) it does provide a nice power curve for acceleration.
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii63/ctbarbour/gs500-shift-chart-12.jpg)
Ideal shift points are approximately:
1st > 2nd - 10.25K RPM
2nd > 6th - 10K RPM
RPM limited max speed in this configuration is about 125, which is about the best you could ever hope for from basic mods to the GS.
Note that for street riding, you really don't need to use these shift points. Even with stock gearing, the GS500 will happily pull from as low as 3000RPM. There's no reason to wear out your bottom end spinning up to 10K rpm for a relatively sedate riding.
Thanks for redoing!
Actually, I noticed something very interesting when comparing the two charts... Going -1+2 gives you a nice boost of acceleration at low gears, but... Compare the speed to power between the two charts, and you'll notice that in higher gears, you actually make a little less power. Would be interesting to overlay the two charts to see the results...
Quote from: burning1 on September 29, 2011, 06:28:20 PM
Actually, I noticed something very interesting when comparing the two charts... Going -1+2 gives you a nice boost of acceleration at low gears, but... Compare the speed to power between the two charts, and you'll notice that in higher gears, you actually make a little less power. Would be interesting to overlay the two charts to see the results...
This is where I was hoping you would take this! the overlay of the two charts......
Basically we could also combine all 6 curves and just use the right side of each (except use all of 1st gear...and make one smooth acceleration curve......(forget about shift points..just compare what happens with different sprockets...)
Also this seems to prove out what I have read for racing ...choose the lowest gear which will just about hit redline at the end of the longest straightaway...any higher gear would be a waste for racing...
For recreational riding....I don't see any of this much mattering!
Cookie
BTW: it still makes it look like there is a "wasted gear", power wise :D This time, it's 5th gear.
But from an economy point of view (keeping the engine around 4-5k rpm, at street legal speeds), or perhaps simply for an rpm stepping stone transition to 6th, it is certainly useful ;)
I find it also interesting to note, that 5th, on "stock", is almost identical to your 6th, on a re-sprocket.
So if someone were to just pretend they have a 5-speed trans, plus "overdrive" gear, they're almost at the same thing without changing anything :D
Other than the initial 1st gear torque.. really, there seems to be equivalent power available in both graphs; the main difference being that in the tweaked one, you would use a higher gear to get the power, whereas in stock, you merely hold the lower gear for longer?
The short version of this I think is to say; "Suzuki did a REALLY good job of gearing choices!" :)
Quote from: twocool on September 29, 2011, 07:49:56 PM
Quote from: burning1 on September 29, 2011, 06:28:20 PM
Actually, I noticed something very interesting when comparing the two charts... Going -1+2 gives you a nice boost of acceleration at low gears, but... Compare the speed to power between the two charts, and you'll notice that in higher gears, you actually make a little less power. Would be interesting to overlay the two charts to see the results...
This is where I was hoping you would take this! the overlay of the two charts......
Basically we could also combine all 6 curves and just use the right side of each (except use all of 1st gear...and make one smooth acceleration curve......(forget about shift points..just compare what happens with different sprockets...)
Also this seems to prove out what I have read for racing ...choose the lowest gear which will just about hit redline at the end of the longest straightaway...any higher gear would be a waste for racing...
For recreational riding....I don't see any of this much mattering!
Cookie
I'm quite the opposite. This very well is important to the way I ride day-to-day.
When I ride I tend to keep my bike as close to the middle of the power band as I can for the gear I'm in. You don't need to be greased lightning on two wheels do it either. Reason being is that you're much safer in your power band operating your engine at it's peak performance point so that if something does come up you can motor through it fairly easy. For example, being stuck on the highway with a car merging your way given the choice to brake or speed up (you're in the middle of his car) which do you choose? I'd choose speed up and begin a small swerve. The engine, operating within the power band, will respond much quicker to you dumping the throttle than if it had to speed up to the power band.
Of course this doesn't do much for you when you ride through an intersection (you should be covering your brake and starting to inch your speed down ALWAYS if there is a left-turner or right-turner), but it's good to keep in mind if you're on a long stretch of land where the most optimal situation will be to use your throttle vs. use your brake.
Quote from: twocool on September 29, 2011, 07:49:56 PMThis is where I was hoping you would take this! the overlay of the two charts......
Basically we could also combine all 6 curves and just use the right side of each (except use all of 1st gear...and make one smooth acceleration curve......(forget about shift points..just compare what happens with different sprockets...)
My thoughts exactly. :)
I was actually playing with a couple of superimposed graphs earlier today at the end of work. I basically made each graph a single color, layered one over the other and made it slightly transparent using GIMP. Short version is that through 1st and the early part of 2nd, the lower gearing has an advantage. The taller gearing has a bit of an advantage at the end of 2nd, where the shorter gearing is forced to shift to 3rd. After that, it pretty much goes back and forth, till the low gearing falls flat on it's face at 120 miles per hour, and the taller gearing has a little oomph.
Leads me to believe that slightly more moderate gearing, such as -0/+3 might be a better choice for our bikes.
I may repeat the comparison using a sportbike dyno chart for anyone interested in how things match up with a peakier engine. I was hoping to find a good dyno of a GS with Megacycle cams and a few other race mods for comparison, but didn't have a lot of luck. Guess I'll have to wait till I build and dyno my race engine... :)
I probably won't be able to post up the comparison image until Monday, but I will certainly share them when I have em. If there's a good way to share XLS spreadsheets through this forum, I'd be happy to send out the tool I used to make these charts, so that other people can play around.
sharing spreadsheets is what google docs is for, these days
Quote from: Phil B on September 29, 2011, 08:53:44 PM
BTW: it still makes it look like there is a "wasted gear", power wise :D This time, it's 5th gear.
But from an economy point of view (keeping the engine around 4-5k rpm, at street legal speeds), or perhaps simply for an rpm stepping stone transition to 6th, it is certainly useful ;)
I find it also interesting to note, that 5th, on "stock", is almost identical to your 6th, on a re-sprocket.
So if someone were to just pretend they have a 5-speed trans, plus "overdrive" gear, they're almost at the same thing without changing anything :D
Other than the initial 1st gear torque.. really, there seems to be equivalent power available in both graphs; the main difference being that in the tweaked one, you would use a higher gear to get the power, whereas in stock, you merely hold the lower gear for longer?
The short version of this I think is to say; "Suzuki did a REALLY good job of gearing choices!" :)
Phil B,
You and I have come to the same conclusion! (the only benefit to lower gear ratios is first gear.......the middle gears don't matter.......In the higher gears (6th) you can always simply down shift..........it's nice to have a fairly high 6th as "overdrive" for cruising at lower RPM when aceleration is not needed)
This is where I thought this would all lead............
Once you superimpose the graphs for different ratios....you see that IT IS ALWAYS THE SAME GRAPH......just that the graph is extended a little on the low side.....or extended a little at the high side when you change ratios...
Yes the position of each gear moves around on the graph...(shift points) but the graph is really simple to understand.....
The graph shows the three parameters of HP....force, distance, time.....it is simply the equation
x times y = Horsepower.....
Ok the actual graph might vary and waver tiny bit here and there from this theoretical equation..but if you "smooth out the curve...you always get .....x times y = HP
Cookie
Quote from: Dr.McNinja on September 29, 2011, 09:43:05 PM
Quote from: twocool on September 29, 2011, 07:49:56 PM
Quote from: burning1 on September 29, 2011, 06:28:20 PM
Actually, I noticed something very interesting when comparing the two charts... Going -1+2 gives you a nice boost of acceleration at low gears, but... Compare the speed to power between the two charts, and you'll notice that in higher gears, you actually make a little less power. Would be interesting to overlay the two charts to see the results...
This is where I was hoping you would take this! the overlay of the two charts......
Basically we could also combine all 6 curves and just use the right side of each (except use all of 1st gear...and make one smooth acceleration curve......(forget about shift points..just compare what happens with different sprockets...)
Also this seems to prove out what I have read for racing ...choose the lowest gear which will just about hit redline at the end of the longest straightaway...any higher gear would be a waste for racing...
For recreational riding....I don't see any of this much mattering!
Cookie
I'm quite the opposite. This very well is important to the way I ride day-to-day.
When I ride I tend to keep my bike as close to the middle of the power band as I can for the gear I'm in. You don't need to be greased lightning on two wheels do it either. Reason being is that you're much safer in your power band operating your engine at it's peak performance point so that if something does come up you can motor through it fairly easy. For example, being stuck on the highway with a car merging your way given the choice to brake or speed up (you're in the middle of his car) which do you choose? I'd choose speed up and begin a small swerve. The engine, operating within the power band, will respond much quicker to you dumping the throttle than if it had to speed up to the power band.
Of course this doesn't do much for you when you ride through an intersection (you should be covering your brake and starting to inch your speed down ALWAYS if there is a left-turner or right-turner), but it's good to keep in mind if you're on a long stretch of land where the most optimal situation will be to use your throttle vs. use your brake.
Although I do understand your concept and agree to a point....it doesn't seem practical to me in the real world of recreational riding...
What RPM range do you consider the "power band"??
Sooo............what RPM shift points do you use? Do you ever get into 6th gear? Ever heard of downshifting when accelaration is needed?
Cookie
Quote from: twocool on September 29, 2011, 07:01:27 AM
If we were to look at the shift points I use in recreational riding...or (worse) the upshifts recommended in the manual..
1 to 2 @ 12 MPH
2 to 3 @ 19 MPH
3 to 4 @ 25 MPH
4 to 5 @ 31 MPH
5 to 6 @ 37 MPH
I think for recreational riding you can pretty much pick (almost) any gear at any time!
1st goes from 0 to 48
2nd goes from 12 to 67
3rd goes from 19 to 86
4th goes from 25 to 95
5th goes from 31 to 125 (theoretical)
6th goes from 37 to 141 (theoretical or down hill, down wind)
I would say that most of us ride somewhere in between the "granny shifts" shown in the owners manual, and the "all out race shifts" shown in the torque curve shift point chart. For recreational riders, don't think the actual gear ratios, nor the actual shift points make a bit of difference. (The most I'm ever gonna do is downshift and rev up to like 8500 to pass somebody, or get out of somebody's way...........Or just once in a while for fun.......
Cookie
I don't recall such gear shift point recommendations in the OEM Owner's Manual that comes with the bike. What page is this on?
My shifts are normally in the 5k - 6k range. Say 5.5k for average. I'll cruise around in 4th at 37mph (60kph), 5th at 50mph (80kph) and will not take 6th below 56mph (90kph) cause it starts feeling sluggish around the 50mph (80kph) mark. At these speeds the bike is in the 4k to 5k range for cruising. Isn't lugging and still has some get up and go.
As the bike can be doing 87mph (140kph) in 4th gear at 9k rpm, I find it an ideal gear to use to merge onto a highway. I can leave it in 4th for around town riding and then just twist the throttle while I am on the on-ramp and only change gears once on the highway. :thumb:
Michael
Quote from: twocool on October 01, 2011, 04:22:05 AM
Quote from: Dr.McNinja on September 29, 2011, 09:43:05 PM
Quote from: twocool on September 29, 2011, 07:49:56 PM
Quote from: burning1 on September 29, 2011, 06:28:20 PM
Actually, I noticed something very interesting when comparing the two charts... Going -1+2 gives you a nice boost of acceleration at low gears, but... Compare the speed to power between the two charts, and you'll notice that in higher gears, you actually make a little less power. Would be interesting to overlay the two charts to see the results...
This is where I was hoping you would take this! the overlay of the two charts......
Basically we could also combine all 6 curves and just use the right side of each (except use all of 1st gear...and make one smooth acceleration curve......(forget about shift points..just compare what happens with different sprockets...)
Also this seems to prove out what I have read for racing ...choose the lowest gear which will just about hit redline at the end of the longest straightaway...any higher gear would be a waste for racing...
For recreational riding....I don't see any of this much mattering!
Cookie
I'm quite the opposite. This very well is important to the way I ride day-to-day.
When I ride I tend to keep my bike as close to the middle of the power band as I can for the gear I'm in. You don't need to be greased lightning on two wheels do it either. Reason being is that you're much safer in your power band operating your engine at it's peak performance point so that if something does come up you can motor through it fairly easy. For example, being stuck on the highway with a car merging your way given the choice to brake or speed up (you're in the middle of his car) which do you choose? I'd choose speed up and begin a small swerve. The engine, operating within the power band, will respond much quicker to you dumping the throttle than if it had to speed up to the power band.
Of course this doesn't do much for you when you ride through an intersection (you should be covering your brake and starting to inch your speed down ALWAYS if there is a left-turner or right-turner), but it's good to keep in mind if you're on a long stretch of land where the most optimal situation will be to use your throttle vs. use your brake.
Although I do understand your concept and agree to a point....it doesn't seem practical to me in the real world of recreational riding...
What RPM range do you consider the "power band"??
Sooo............what RPM shift points do you use? Do you ever get into 6th gear? Ever heard of downshifting when accelaration is needed?
Cookie
The power band is toward the end of the range. Without seeing a dyno chart I would typically keep my bike between 6k and 8k.
I adjust my shift pattern based on the place I'm riding. If I'm in traffic, I tend to ride my gears out more. A typical "in-traffic" scenario would be:
from red light -
1st - 2nd -> 8.5k - 9k
2nd - 3rd -> 8k
I never usually have to leave third on any road under 65 MPH. These RPMs are subject to change as well, I adjust the "aggressiveness" of my shifting based on traffic. I guess you could say I keep my bike in a gear lower than it could be until it gets annoying to ride in that gear.
Highways here are pretty safe, but notoriously hard to get on to because people tend to speed up to block people from getting in their way vs. keeping their same speed to facilitate merging. As such, I tend to follow a more aggressive pattern from the "HOV light" that lets one car on at a time.
From red -
1st - 2nd -> 9k
2nd - 3rd -> 8.5k
3rd - 4th -> 8k
4th - 5th -> 8k
I almost never reach 6th gear. To me, 6th gear is my cruising gear that I click into on an open freeway.
As for downshifting when danger shows up. I can't really say that's a bad idea, but at least for me downshifting is one more step I have to do before my bike is useful - and sometimes you don't have the time to do it.
This isn't of course to say I don't cruise. I shift WAY earlier on roads that are less populated/less dangerous/completely empty. But if I have to put with 6.5-7k engine vibrations riding down a very busy road so that I can maintain my safety I will be more than happy to do it.
I'm open to suggestions though.
Quote from: mister on October 01, 2011, 01:05:02 PM
Quote from: twocool on September 29, 2011, 07:01:27 AM
If we were to look at the shift points I use in recreational riding...or (worse) the upshifts recommended in the manual..
1 to 2 @ 12 MPH
2 to 3 @ 19 MPH
3 to 4 @ 25 MPH
4 to 5 @ 31 MPH
5 to 6 @ 37 MPH
I think for recreational riding you can pretty much pick (almost) any gear at any time!
1st goes from 0 to 48
2nd goes from 12 to 67
3rd goes from 19 to 86
4th goes from 25 to 95
5th goes from 31 to 125 (theoretical)
6th goes from 37 to 141 (theoretical or down hill, down wind)
I would say that most of us ride somewhere in between the "granny shifts" shown in the owners manual, and the "all out race shifts" shown in the torque curve shift point chart. For recreational riders, don't think the actual gear ratios, nor the actual shift points make a bit of difference. (The most I'm ever gonna do is downshift and rev up to like 8500 to pass somebody, or get out of somebody's way...........Or just once in a while for fun.......
Cookie
I don't recall such gear shift point recommendations in the OEM Owner's Manual that comes with the bike. What page is this on?
My shifts are normally in the 5k - 6k range. Say 5.5k for average. I'll cruise around in 4th at 37mph (60kph), 5th at 50mph (80kph) and will not take 6th below 56mph (90kph) cause it starts feeling sluggish around the 50mph (80kph) mark. At these speeds the bike is in the 4k to 5k range for cruising. Isn't lugging and still has some get up and go.
As the bike can be doing 87mph (140kph) in 4th gear at 9k rpm, I find it an ideal gear to use to merge onto a highway. I can leave it in 4th for around town riding and then just twist the throttle while I am on the on-ramp and only change gears once on the highway. :thumb:
Michael
Chart on Page 5-4...of july 2008 manual (for 2009 model) Section "using the Transmission"..Upshifting schedule.....
The downshifting schedule is even worse! 4th to 3rd at 12 mph !!!
I've seen some weird shifting schedules like this for some of the cars I've owned......way too low RPM for any reasonable driving....my girlfriend even had a car with an "upshift Light"... that damn thing was "on" all the time I drove that car!
Your shift points seem to agree with what I normally do too........Downshifting...or staying in a lower gear is always available when quick pick up is needed(7000 or higher).....then higher gear for continuous cruising (like 4500 to 5500)
Again the shift point chart which "Burning" has developed really represents Wide open Throttle and an example of extracting the maximum (average) horsepower throughout the gear changes...
Although this might have an application in recreational riding (merging from a dead stop to 85 MPH traffic comes to mind)...I certainly never had the reason to drive like this....only occasional "wind up" in a particular gear..or down shift to get the rpm up for short burst)
I can't see running up above 8500 to 10,000 all the time...
Cookie
Quote from: Dr.McNinja on October 01, 2011, 01:20:03 PM
Quote from: twocool on October 01, 2011, 04:22:05 AM
Quote from: Dr.McNinja on September 29, 2011, 09:43:05 PM
Quote from: twocool on September 29, 2011, 07:49:56 PM
Quote from: burning1 on September 29, 2011, 06:28:20 PM
Actually, I noticed something very interesting when comparing the two charts... Going -1+2 gives you a nice boost of acceleration at low gears, but... Compare the speed to power between the two charts, and you'll notice that in higher gears, you actually make a little less power. Would be interesting to overlay the two charts to see the results...
This is where I was hoping you would take this! the overlay of the two charts......
Basically we could also combine all 6 curves and just use the right side of each (except use all of 1st gear...and make one smooth acceleration curve......(forget about shift points..just compare what happens with different sprockets...)
Also this seems to prove out what I have read for racing ...choose the lowest gear which will just about hit redline at the end of the longest straightaway...any higher gear would be a waste for racing...
For recreational riding....I don't see any of this much mattering!
Cookie
I'm quite the opposite. This very well is important to the way I ride day-to-day.
When I ride I tend to keep my bike as close to the middle of the power band as I can for the gear I'm in. You don't need to be greased lightning on two wheels do it either. Reason being is that you're much safer in your power band operating your engine at it's peak performance point so that if something does come up you can motor through it fairly easy. For example, being stuck on the highway with a car merging your way given the choice to brake or speed up (you're in the middle of his car) which do you choose? I'd choose speed up and begin a small swerve. The engine, operating within the power band, will respond much quicker to you dumping the throttle than if it had to speed up to the power band.
Of course this doesn't do much for you when you ride through an intersection (you should be covering your brake and starting to inch your speed down ALWAYS if there is a left-turner or right-turner), but it's good to keep in mind if you're on a long stretch of land where the most optimal situation will be to use your throttle vs. use your brake.
Although I do understand your concept and agree to a point....it doesn't seem practical to me in the real world of recreational riding...
What RPM range do you consider the "power band"??
Sooo............what RPM shift points do you use? Do you ever get into 6th gear? Ever heard of downshifting when accelaration is needed?
Cookie
The power band is toward the end of the range. Without seeing a dyno chart I would typically keep my bike between 6k and 8k.
I adjust my shift pattern based on the place I'm riding. If I'm in traffic, I tend to ride my gears out more. A typical "in-traffic" scenario would be:
from red light -
1st - 2nd -> 8.5k - 9k
2nd - 3rd -> 8k
I never usually have to leave third on any road under 65 MPH. These RPMs are subject to change as well, I adjust the "aggressiveness" of my shifting based on traffic. I guess you could say I keep my bike in a gear lower than it could be until it gets annoying to ride in that gear.
Highways here are pretty safe, but notoriously hard to get on to because people tend to speed up to block people from getting in their way vs. keeping their same speed to facilitate merging. As such, I tend to follow a more aggressive pattern from the "HOV light" that lets one car on at a time.
From red -
1st - 2nd -> 9k
2nd - 3rd -> 8.5k
3rd - 4th -> 8k
4th - 5th -> 8k
I almost never reach 6th gear. To me, 6th gear is my cruising gear that I click into on an open freeway.
As for downshifting when danger shows up. I can't really say that's a bad idea, but at least for me downshifting is one more step I have to do before my bike is useful - and sometimes you don't have the time to do it.
This isn't of course to say I don't cruise. I shift WAY earlier on roads that are less populated/less dangerous/completely empty. But if I have to put with 6.5-7k engine vibrations riding down a very busy road so that I can maintain my safety I will be more than happy to do it.
I'm open to suggestions though.
I would say that you are more "aggressive" than most..your shifts are at fairly high RPM.....
From the type of riding you describe..it makes perfect sense to me...
But the shift point chart show shifts at even HIGHER RPM!!!! (I think "burning" has come up with shifts in the 10K range for the lower gears...)
It look to me as if you are operating up in the power band...but probably the lower end of it.. But then again...it seems the GS500 has a fairly flat and broad power band...so not a tremendous difference "where" in the power band...
My riding is a lot different...usually long stretches of uncongested roads......often many miles without even seeing any other vehicles..I'm "out of town" in less than one mile...sometimes cruise in 5th if there's lots of tight turns and hills....otherwise cruise in 6th at pretty low rpm (50 to 60 MPH)
The beauty is that the GS500 can do either style!
Cookie
Cookie
I don't have a copy of the manual going, but I have seen similar shift points for other vehicles. I don't think they are actually recommending those shift points, just listing them as the absolute minimum speed that it's safe to shift into the next gear. For absolute maximum fuel efficiency with very mellow throttle application, those shift points will likely maximize fuel efficiency.
I'd be very surprised if the manual actually suggests those as nominal shift points for typical city riding.
Quote from: twocool on October 01, 2011, 04:10:36 AMPhil B,
You and I have come to the same conclusion! (the only benefit to lower gear ratios is first gear.......the middle gears don't matter.......In the higher gears (6th) you can always simply down shift..........it's nice to have a fairly high 6th as "overdrive" for cruising at lower RPM when aceleration is not needed)
This is where I thought this would all lead............
Once you superimpose the graphs for different ratios....you see that IT IS ALWAYS THE SAME GRAPH......just that the graph is extended a little on the low side.....or extended a little at the high side when you change ratios...
Yes the position of each gear moves around on the graph...(shift points) but the graph is really simple to understand.....
Was thinking about this on the way home, and realized how much sense it actually made. If I was to plot a chart of an ideal transmission (CVT) I'm sure we'd find that it created a curve that basically connected the peaks of every possible gearing chart we could produce.
Started thinking about ways I could make the spreadsheet I'm using sit up and bark... I could probably produce a version that would chart out 2 sets of gearing, based on a single set of inputs. User throws in his torque @ RPM numbers, gearing (new&old) tire size (new&old) and chart produces a graph comparing the two, esp against a CVT.
With a tiny bit of work, it should be possible to calculate the 'usable speed' for each set of gears, which could help guys like me who race. Could probably even chart a 'threshold of wheelies' based on the length of the bike and CoG, to show how useless extra low 1st speed gearing is on a sport bike.
Quote from: twocool on October 01, 2011, 03:04:06 PM
Quote from: mister on October 01, 2011, 01:05:02 PM
Quote from: twocool on September 29, 2011, 07:01:27 AM
If we were to look at the shift points I use in recreational riding...or (worse) the upshifts recommended in the manual..
1 to 2 @ 12 MPH
2 to 3 @ 19 MPH
3 to 4 @ 25 MPH
4 to 5 @ 31 MPH
5 to 6 @ 37 MPH
I think for recreational riding you can pretty much pick (almost) any gear at any time!
1st goes from 0 to 48
2nd goes from 12 to 67
3rd goes from 19 to 86
4th goes from 25 to 95
5th goes from 31 to 125 (theoretical)
6th goes from 37 to 141 (theoretical or down hill, down wind)
I would say that most of us ride somewhere in between the "granny shifts" shown in the owners manual, and the "all out race shifts" shown in the torque curve shift point chart. For recreational riders, don't think the actual gear ratios, nor the actual shift points make a bit of difference. (The most I'm ever gonna do is downshift and rev up to like 8500 to pass somebody, or get out of somebody's way...........Or just once in a while for fun.......
Cookie
I don't recall such gear shift point recommendations in the OEM Owner's Manual that comes with the bike. What page is this on?
My shifts are normally in the 5k - 6k range. Say 5.5k for average. I'll cruise around in 4th at 37mph (60kph), 5th at 50mph (80kph) and will not take 6th below 56mph (90kph) cause it starts feeling sluggish around the 50mph (80kph) mark. At these speeds the bike is in the 4k to 5k range for cruising. Isn't lugging and still has some get up and go.
As the bike can be doing 87mph (140kph) in 4th gear at 9k rpm, I find it an ideal gear to use to merge onto a highway. I can leave it in 4th for around town riding and then just twist the throttle while I am on the on-ramp and only change gears once on the highway. :thumb:
Michael
Chart on Page 5-4...of july 2008 manual (for 2009 model) Section "using the Transmission"..Upshifting schedule.....
Cookie
Interesting, cause my July 2008 manual for my 2009 bike shows no chart in page 5-4. This is the manual I uploaded to the wiki if you want to see it for yourself. The 2nd column on that page only has a Caution at the top and nothing else. Still called Using The Transmission. Hmmm.
Michael
Quote from: mister on October 02, 2011, 02:57:03 AM
Quote from: twocool on October 01, 2011, 03:04:06 PM
Quote from: mister on October 01, 2011, 01:05:02 PM
Quote from: twocool on September 29, 2011, 07:01:27 AM
If we were to look at the shift points I use in recreational riding...or (worse) the upshifts recommended in the manual..
1 to 2 @ 12 MPH
2 to 3 @ 19 MPH
3 to 4 @ 25 MPH
4 to 5 @ 31 MPH
5 to 6 @ 37 MPH
I think for recreational riding you can pretty much pick (almost) any gear at any time!
1st goes from 0 to 48
2nd goes from 12 to 67
3rd goes from 19 to 86
4th goes from 25 to 95
5th goes from 31 to 125 (theoretical)
6th goes from 37 to 141 (theoretical or down hill, down wind)
I would say that most of us ride somewhere in between the "granny shifts" shown in the owners manual, and the "all out race shifts" shown in the torque curve shift point chart. For recreational riders, don't think the actual gear ratios, nor the actual shift points make a bit of difference. (The most I'm ever gonna do is downshift and rev up to like 8500 to pass somebody, or get out of somebody's way...........Or just once in a while for fun.......
Cookie
I don't recall such gear shift point recommendations in the OEM Owner's Manual that comes with the bike. What page is this on?
My shifts are normally in the 5k - 6k range. Say 5.5k for average. I'll cruise around in 4th at 37mph (60kph), 5th at 50mph (80kph) and will not take 6th below 56mph (90kph) cause it starts feeling sluggish around the 50mph (80kph) mark. At these speeds the bike is in the 4k to 5k range for cruising. Isn't lugging and still has some get up and go.
As the bike can be doing 87mph (140kph) in 4th gear at 9k rpm, I find it an ideal gear to use to merge onto a highway. I can leave it in 4th for around town riding and then just twist the throttle while I am on the on-ramp and only change gears once on the highway. :thumb:
Michael
Chart on Page 5-4...of july 2008 manual (for 2009 model) Section "using the Transmission"..Upshifting schedule.....
Cookie
Interesting, cause my July 2008 manual for my 2009 bike shows no chart in page 5-4. This is the manual I uploaded to the wiki if you want to see it for yourself. The 2nd column on that page only has a Caution at the top and nothing else. Still called Using The Transmission. Hmmm.
Michael
I have the original copy which came withthe bike and also a downlaoded copy from Part Shark...both are the same on page 5-4......two charts..."upshifting schedule, and down shifting schedule.
It also says in the paragraph above.."The table below shows the approximate speed range for each gear"....
Are you in another country than USA ??
I'm betting they had to put in this stupid shift range chart so as to meet some silly EPA standard for fuel economy or pollution in the USA..........
Cookie
Quote from: burning1 on October 01, 2011, 07:55:56 PM
I don't have a copy of the manual going, but I have seen similar shift points for other vehicles. I don't think they are actually recommending those shift points, just listing them as the absolute minimum speed that it's safe to shift into the next gear. For absolute maximum fuel efficiency with very mellow throttle application, those shift points will likely maximize fuel efficiency.
I'd be very surprised if the manual actually suggests those as nominal shift points for typical city riding.
Well is sure does look like they are "recommending" those shift points.....but I suspect that they put in those numbers to meet some EPA mileage or pollution standard....
Cookie
Quote from: burning1 on October 01, 2011, 09:52:31 PM
Quote from: twocool on October 01, 2011, 04:10:36 AMPhil B,
You and I have come to the same conclusion! (the only benefit to lower gear ratios is first gear.......the middle gears don't matter.......In the higher gears (6th) you can always simply down shift..........it's nice to have a fairly high 6th as "overdrive" for cruising at lower RPM when aceleration is not needed)
This is where I thought this would all lead............
Once you superimpose the graphs for different ratios....you see that IT IS ALWAYS THE SAME GRAPH......just that the graph is extended a little on the low side.....or extended a little at the high side when you change ratios...
Yes the position of each gear moves around on the graph...(shift points) but the graph is really simple to understand.....
Was thinking about this on the way home, and realized how much sense it actually made. If I was to plot a chart of an ideal transmission (CVT) I'm sure we'd find that it created a curve that basically connected the peaks of every possible gearing chart we could produce.
Started thinking about ways I could make the spreadsheet I'm using sit up and bark... I could probably produce a version that would chart out 2 sets of gearing, based on a single set of inputs. User throws in his torque @ RPM numbers, gearing (new&old) tire size (new&old) and chart produces a graph comparing the two, esp against a CVT.
With a tiny bit of work, it should be possible to calculate the 'usable speed' for each set of gears, which could help guys like me who race. Could probably even chart a 'threshold of wheelies' based on the length of the bike and CoG, to show how useless extra low 1st speed gearing is on a sport bike.
Yes!!! If you simply take the equation of: (x times y) = HP....where X is the foreward speed of the rear wheel,and y is the driving force of the rear wheel.......and HP is the horsepower at the rear wheel (max. engne HP minus mechanical losses)...........
Then you would have an "ideal" chart ...or what you call the CVT chart...or "infinite gearing" chart....
This chart would represent the best possible, but not exactly achievable, scenerio...
All this chart is really telling us is that driving force on the rear wheel is the inverse of the speed of that wheel......twice the speed.....1/2 the driving force....4 times the speed...1/4 the driving force.
This is simply a different way to look at HP......torque times RPM........
So you then compare your actual curves in each gear to the "master" graph, and try to get as close as possible, buy choosing gear ratios, and shift points which make the actual, closely as possible, fit the "master"....
Just a couple of questions come to mind with where we have it so far...
Do the charts subtract for mechanical losses (difference from engine power to power at the wheel)?
Is the tachometer on our bikes accurate???
If we shift according to ground speed....we must take speedo error into account??
Looking at the charts developed thus far...I read about 50 HP...I think 40 HP is more likely...the HP dyno chart I saw shows max HP at 42, even for a mod'ed bike.....
Cookie
Quote from: twocool on October 02, 2011, 03:10:20 AM
Quote from: mister on October 02, 2011, 02:57:03 AM
Quote from: twocool on October 01, 2011, 03:04:06 PM
Quote from: mister on October 01, 2011, 01:05:02 PM
Quote from: twocool on September 29, 2011, 07:01:27 AM
If we were to look at the shift points I use in recreational riding...or (worse) the upshifts recommended in the manual..
1 to 2 @ 12 MPH
2 to 3 @ 19 MPH
3 to 4 @ 25 MPH
4 to 5 @ 31 MPH
5 to 6 @ 37 MPH
I think for recreational riding you can pretty much pick (almost) any gear at any time!
1st goes from 0 to 48
2nd goes from 12 to 67
3rd goes from 19 to 86
4th goes from 25 to 95
5th goes from 31 to 125 (theoretical)
6th goes from 37 to 141 (theoretical or down hill, down wind)
I would say that most of us ride somewhere in between the "granny shifts" shown in the owners manual, and the "all out race shifts" shown in the torque curve shift point chart. For recreational riders, don't think the actual gear ratios, nor the actual shift points make a bit of difference. (The most I'm ever gonna do is downshift and rev up to like 8500 to pass somebody, or get out of somebody's way...........Or just once in a while for fun.......
Cookie
I don't recall such gear shift point recommendations in the OEM Owner's Manual that comes with the bike. What page is this on?
My shifts are normally in the 5k - 6k range. Say 5.5k for average. I'll cruise around in 4th at 37mph (60kph), 5th at 50mph (80kph) and will not take 6th below 56mph (90kph) cause it starts feeling sluggish around the 50mph (80kph) mark. At these speeds the bike is in the 4k to 5k range for cruising. Isn't lugging and still has some get up and go.
As the bike can be doing 87mph (140kph) in 4th gear at 9k rpm, I find it an ideal gear to use to merge onto a highway. I can leave it in 4th for around town riding and then just twist the throttle while I am on the on-ramp and only change gears once on the highway. :thumb:
Michael
Chart on Page 5-4...of july 2008 manual (for 2009 model) Section "using the Transmission"..Upshifting schedule.....
Cookie
Interesting, cause my July 2008 manual for my 2009 bike shows no chart in page 5-4. This is the manual I uploaded to the wiki if you want to see it for yourself. The 2nd column on that page only has a Caution at the top and nothing else. Still called Using The Transmission. Hmmm.
Michael
I have the original copy which came withthe bike and also a downlaoded copy from Part Shark...both are the same on page 5-4......two charts..."upshifting schedule, and down shifting schedule.
It also says in the paragraph above.."The table below shows the approximate speed range for each gear"....
Are you in another country than USA ??
I'm betting they had to put in this stupid shift range chart so as to meet some silly EPA standard for fuel economy or pollution in the USA..........
Cookie
Yes, I live outside of the USA. So it would seem the chart is also maybe for some kind of insurance ass covering thing. Otherwise some stoop will redline it and break the bike then sue the manufacture for faulty product or some such jibble.
Michael
The manual isnt a "racing manual". it's a manual aimed towards street driving. For regular street driving, it is presumed that the owner would want good fuel efficiency. Good fuel efficiency comes from low rpms.
So, the recommended shift points show where to shift, to achieve that, without "bogging down" the engine.
Quote from: mister on October 02, 2011, 04:22:03 AM
Yes, I live outside of the USA. So it would seem the chart is also maybe for some kind of insurance ass covering thing. Otherwise some stoop will redline it and break the bike then sue the manufacture for faulty product or some such jibble.
Michael
Motorcycles are ruined by the EPA. I just heard the new ZX10R has 20 less HP in America than in the EU because of California. It's not cheap to fix it either. Same with the GS500. The European GS500 has something like 5 or so HP more than the American one. The minimum you can do is PAIR Block-Off plates, and the best thing you can do is a rejet to a larger size with the PAIR BO plates. Then you risk never being able to sell the bike because of DMV pre-sell testing.
The chart doesn't take into account a lot of things, so the information in there is somewhat rough. Because we're using a rear wheel dyno as our source of data, the torque curves are based on a 4th gear roll-on test, and represent the parasitic losses in 4th, along with the crank, transmission, chain, wheel inertia in that gear. An Infinite gearing chart would assume exactly the same losses, and wouldn't mirror a true world CSV - it simply presents an ideal based on available data.
Same of course, is true for the curves already presented. In the rear world, each gear is going to have different levels of power loss due to inertia and drag.
Quote from: burning1 on October 02, 2011, 11:52:04 AM
The chart doesn't take into account a lot of things, so the information in there is somewhat rough. Because we're using a rear wheel dyno as our source of data, the torque curves are based on a 4th gear roll-on test, and represent the parasitic losses in 4th, along with the crank, transmission, chain, wheel inertia in that gear. An Infinite gearing chart would assume exactly the same losses, and wouldn't mirror a true world CSV - it simply presents an ideal based on available data.
Same of course, is true for the curves already presented. In the rear world, each gear is going to have different levels of power loss due to inertia and drag.
Oh, Right...rear wheel dyno...of course...subtracts most (maybe all) of the variables that are between the engine and the wheel......
Well, if you base the chart on the best HP achieved at the rear wheel...the the "ideal" chart would be, again, x times y = HP...
Cookie