Deserved or not, when I hear "Made In China" I automatically assume it is of inferior quality. I wouldn't own a Chinese scooter just for that reason. I have been eying the BMW G 650 GS as a decent little adventure tourer but something about the Made In China engine doesn't sit right with me. Opinions??
-Jessie
These are the same people who put melamine-formaldehyde resin in baby milk to make it appear 'more nutritious'
Think of all the poor innocent pet cats and dogs that died of kidney failure from the Made in China pet food ingredients not too long ago. There is also a joke about the olympic gold medals that are now made in China, prompting the warning to winners not to kiss the medals due to the high levels of lead they contain.
Those who think China will soon be ahead of the US in every respect may not be aware that the entire country is choking to death on it's unbridled air pollution and wallowing in countless billions of tons of garbage, trash, and human/animal waste that they don't know what to do with. They dump it in the neighborhoods, on the streets, waterways, and on any convenient piece of land they can find-----give it a few more years and they won't have to worry about overpopulation.
What do I think when I hear "made in China"...
They are currently going through what Japan went through ages ago, when the words "Made In Japan" meant "inferior".
Chinese made foodstuffs... forget about it. Their quality control is highly questionable.
Chinese made toys... again poor QC what with lead based paint in childs and babies toys, etc.
Chinese made goods of various description... lack of QC means shoddy products with questionable ingredients.
But Vehicles... ahh, this is an interesting one.
Triumphs are made in Thailand. Maybe buyers know, maybe they don't. Spain makes the GS500 According To the Suzuki Specs and you can be sure Suzuki keeps an eye on the QC to maintain the bikes to a Standard.
Down here, we have some Chinese Versions of Australian Built, Japanese built and German Built cranes. And the Chinese versions are all sh!t. And only the small companies who don't really need a serious crane (small machine shop, shed building company, etc.) buy them - much to the dismay of the operators employed to operate them. For instance...
A couple months back there was an horrific crane crash where an Australian made "Franna Crane (http://www.google.com.au/search?q=franna+crane&hl=en&prmd=imvnso&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=YQmJTtr-PJCuiQeG5om1Dw&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CEIQ_AUoAQ&biw=1680&bih=931)" rolled a couple of times at speed and the driver died (it is suspected the driver had a heart attack while driving on the road at 50mph). I snapped a photo of this crane after driving by the yard of the company that is going to fix it. I walked in and asked if I could take a photo and they said yes. Apart from exhaust damage, missing center pin and some other similar roll over at speed signs, the crane is not too bad condition.
A truck driver I was working with told me he had photos of the Chinese one that had rolled over on site (word had spread around the construction industry of the rollover but shiny-bums had made a large effort to keep it hush and forbid photos or footage) - it was moving very slow with a load and just rolled over onto its side. In the photos taken surreptitiously by the truck driver the crane's roof was peeled open, the controlling and steering rams were all bent and fubar and it was an utter mess. Yet all it did was fall on its side. An indication their Roll Over Protection System was poor and their build standards lower.
On the flip side we have a car brand called The Great Wall. Marketed as China's Car. What people do not know is, this Great Wall is just a Brand of Hyundai who also, unbeknownst to most, owns KIA cars. This means, you are getting a Korean owned car made to the Korean specs and QC, but made in China. So the quality is quite good.
Summary: The stuff made in China to the QC standards of foreign companies is ok. The Chinese created companies knocking off other products to compete is not so good at the moment, but is likely to get better, though should be avoided in the meantime.
Michael
I agree with mister, but you do get that awkward feeling when the tag on your Australian flag says "made in china" lol.
hell our american flags are. chinese standup scooters have made me ALOT of money at tiems. as well as teh motorcycles. they break. often.
Means it was made in china :P.
Most of the time I'm highly skeptical of anything from a country like China. They are just beginning to enter the better half of the industrial age and their standards are on par currently with where most of the first world was 40 years ago or later. As such, their quality control and manufacturing material is variable at best and using a product from them involves some sort of gamble.
Example -
Harbor Freight is a store here that sells off-brand Chinese knock offs of high end tools. My father bought a compressor tube from them and it broke essentially the next day. It even smelled of uncured rubber. Where is the benefit in these tools? They're one-offs. Need an impact hammer but can't afford to pay 200 bucks for a product you'll use maybe twice? Get a harbor freight knock off for a quarter of the cost. That being said I work in a place where I get tools at cost - so I have no need to ever shop under name-brand :P.
American flags are all manufactured in China. There isn't a single corporation that sells goods that doesn't export some degree of labor to China. It's cheap, unregulated, and they get the work done in twice the time for 1/8th the pay. No unions or labor commissions involved. As an aside - I wish they'd put a HUGE tariff on goods imported from China. There's a good amount of unemployed Americans that would be more than happy to do the work while the economy remains in the tank.
I would not bet my life on anything of Chinese manufacturing at this point. If I found out the engine of anything I drove was manufactured in China I'd probably sell it as quickly as I possibly could. I have NEVER had an automotive product made in China last. EVER. period.
I am one of the generation that remembers "Made in Japan" is being iffy but that changed a lot between the 1950s and the 70s, The Germans put "Foreign" on stuff up to the early-mid 1950s but both soon became a mark of quality, well generally.
I find it difficult to believe that the same will happen with "Made in China" but you never know :D hmmmmmm
I like the earlier points about the internal mechanics and politics of China. For sure China is or will soon be the premier manufacturing nation and since the industrial revolution the big manufacturer has been the big world power, first Britain with Germany and France close by and then latterly the USA.
Will China follow on? I rather think that the Political issues will eventually overtake them and perhaps we will see an "oriental spring" once the middle classes get used to the novelty of getting rich they will probably yearn for more freedom which could lead first to a collapse like the old USSR breaking down into several countries or autonomous regions before reinventing itself as a democratic capitalist society, maybe then, who knows......... :dunno_black: It will be an interesting future.
By the time chinese stuff is of japanese quality, it will cost more than the japanese stuff. To get better stuff out, you need better skilled labor making it, and oddly, skilled labor is needed around the world. I dont see people with expertise working for McWages even in china. Agreed the ycan live fine on a few dollars a day, say $20-30, but currently they are working for under $1.
Cool.
Buddha.
Working in the tool business, I see 'made in china' regularly. Some of it is decent and some of it is not. Vehicles, such as scooters, and I have had two of the the cfmoto versions, are okay but both of them were obviously inferior to japanese bikes. The 250 I had was wrecked and submerged in a flood. I got it running/rejuvenated afterwards but the fasteners, brackets and the metal itself was clearly cheap quality. Taking it all apart and going through its problems gave me a close look at why they cost much less. The little chinese scooter I have is about the same. With that I wouldn't want to depend on any chinese made vehicle as my sole ride.
Here in Europe, Made in China equals Made in DDR (former East Germany), and that stands for cheap, low quality.
There's a saying: I'm not that rich to buy cheap stuff.
And there's a good reason for that.
Buying cheap chinese tools, electronics or something, often cost me more in a long run.
I bought some chinese mirrors for my GS on eBay... Crap.
I bought chinese speedo-tach gauges for my GS... Total crap.
I bought chinese USB reader for my Mazda stereo... Well, it's kinda working, but not as expected or advertised. Etc, etc...
So... No more chinese crap for me. Ever. Ever. Ever.
I'd rather save the money and buy something more expensive, but worth the value.
So back to the original question, would you trust a BMW motorcycle that has it's engine made in China??
-Jessie
It can mean different things.
Generally, you get all this for only $9.95 and if you act in the next 10 minutes, we'll double your order!
Yep - lots of cheap late night TV crap. I can't imagine how they sell that crap and when you figure in the shipping to Seattle, Tacoma, Portland or LA from China, the stuff must be made for one or two cents.
Like others say - if I want a tool I'll use once then have to throw away - made in China. If I depend on the tool - doesn't mater where made as long as high standards with full warranty. I don't care where Craftsman makes their stuff because where ever it is made - it has high standards. I have a Montgomery Wards metric set at least 30 years old that still holds up. Some Craftsman stuff I know is 50 years old.
Tools we can know what we're getting.
I worry more about all the chemicals in our domestic food supply. When the pesticide revolution started in the 60's and growth additives in the 70's, we started killing ourselves. Never have I seen so many fat children. Its not the corn syrup. Its the growth hormones in the food. A little won't kill you. But that little over 10 years will make you gain 10 to 20 pounds you can't get rid of. The antibiotic resistant bugs: antibiotics are added to cattle food "as a precaution" and it also acts as a growth hormone. Animals get to market faster while antibiotic resistant strains of ecoli and other things are evolving. Not a fanatic on what I buy, I try to buy local with no hormones or antibiotics. When I travel to Germany, I don't see all the fat people. Then Europe doesn't allow all those chemicals in the food supply. By German law, beer is grain, hops, yeast, water and sugar. They can't add all the unknown chemicals that gets into out domestic beers. No preservatives so it can sit out in front of a quicky-mart in the sun.
I grew up with lead paint and asbestos insulation on steam pipes in the school. Never a problem for us. With all the new chemicals we have in our food and products (that "new car smell" is chemicals. Remember the toxicity of that "new carpet smell"?) we cave a chemical soup of unknown consequences. All the chemicals we have in our bodies and that we apply as skin lotions spell disaster from ultraviolet light. That high energy light causes lots of unknown chemical reactions which break down our cells DNA and cause skin cancer. You don't see poor starving children in 3rd world countries, out in the sun all the time, developing skin cancer, no do you?
Enough ranting. Time to jump on the bike and go to the drive up across the street to make a company bank deposit. (I'm not lazy, I just like to ride.)
Back on track, a BMW with "Made in China" engine, not for me thanks.
More like "Assembled in China", according to Wikipedia:
"The new G650GS is essentially the 2007 single-cylinder F650GS brought back into production with some minor modifications and with the engine assembled by Loncin in China instead of Rotax in Austria, but still using parts manufactured by Rotax in Europe. The finished engines are shipped back to BMW in Germany where the bikes are assembled. G650GS models with the Chinese-assembled engines can be easily identified as the engines are painted black while in the earlier European-assembled engines were finished in silver. For a short period prior to discontinuation of the bike in 2007 the engines were assembled by Kymco in Taiwan."
I can't seem to find out how much of the current bike ~ which was redesigned for 2011 ~ is produced or assembled in Germany.
BMWs don't float my boat. But a BMW that had its engine from China wouldn't be an issue for me. I highly doubt BMW would just send them the schematics and leave them be. I'd imagine there is a BMW rep stationed there who oversees the QC of everything.
I don't see China doing a USSR meltdown cause the county is really only politically communist. Economically they are capitalist.
Chinese workers = skilled. HA! It is well known down here, when large pieces of made in china metal things arrive, the welds often need to be cut out and redone.
Side Note: There is a store down here called "Domayne". They sell overpriced MDF furniture. I once did a job for one of their Suppliers. They had their stuff made in Vietnam. They said, if you leave them alone the 1st shipment is good, then it gets progressively worse after that. So they have someone over in Vietnam to make sure the QC stays up to scratch.
Michael
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on October 02, 2011, 05:13:16 PM
Deserved or not, when I hear "Made In China" I automatically assume it is of inferior quality. I wouldn't own a Chinese scooter just for that reason. I have been eying the BMW G 650 GS as a decent little adventure tourer but something about the Made In China engine doesn't sit right with me. Opinions??
-Jessie
I personally would go with something else-maybe in a suzuki adventure tourer. Maybe go upmarket and get the one with the extra cylinder :flipoff:
I would think the QC at a BMW factory would be reasonable in China because I would think they wouldn't want to sully the propeller.
Oh as bad as the chinese are @ building stuff, they are 1000 times worse at designing it.
If you have a bunch of small parts especially electronic in nature and you just outsourced the manufacturing, it will probably be the japanese quality we know and expect in electronic items. The rest of it, all bets are off.
On a side note, I have a few chinese kit amplifiers that I have embarrassed several of my vintage fan frenemies with.
Its like Oh yea I see your $1000 used Rotel 200 watt a channel and here is my $200 worth of crap I tossed into this wood box that makes a cleaner 600 watts ...
Cool.
Buddha.
Made in China means to me that they are bankrupting America by bleeding off our money out of our borders. Most of the world is waging financial war, and we're losing. They can't beat us militarily right now, but if they're patient, waiting several decades, they will be able to break us down to the point where we wont be able to financially support our military. Destroying us from within, using our own open door policy and free market consumerism.
By mass-production of goods by essentially slave labor, they are able to under-sell our domestic products, taking our money; providing cheap off-shore land and labor for our factories to take over later, further investing the money they make off us into themselves.
Even their leather is cheaply made, poorly stitched and thin.
Destroying US from within?----Guess you missed the part where they are fast drowning and choking on their own filth and air pollution, they have no answer for dealing with it on any level don't even try. The cancer and other disease stats are through the roof---even by their standards.
And our doofus so called leader put the G.E. CEO in charge of the country's job creation, yeah, he's the guy that's shipping his company ( the one that paid no taxes ) jobs to China. And let's not forget that the guy in charge of our taxes is either a tax cheat or he can't figure out how to work Turbo Tax----take your pick.
A sacrifice of the people for the cause of defeating the "common enemy" of the people. The propaganda fed to their own people against the US.
I think it is possible that China could "do a USSR" meltdown not so much because of the politics but because of the regionalism, it's such a huge place and population with so many differences with some areas getting richer whilst others still exist just post stone-age. The old soviet empire and many other parts of Europe are slipping into tribalism, how many very small countries exist now in what was Yugoslavia.
What does "Made in China" mean to me? It means a cheap product of inferior quality. Do I buy products made in China? Yes. Would I prefer a product made in the USA? Absolutely! Then why do I buy Made in China and other foreign made products? I can't afford to have all "Made in the USA" products.
Here is an interesting article about if we had to buy only "Made in the USA".
http://money.msn.com/how-to-budget/what-if-you-had-to-buy-american.aspx (http://money.msn.com/how-to-budget/what-if-you-had-to-buy-american.aspx)
- Porkchop
Oh man! I know where you are coming from with "Made in USA" or in my case "UK" - I know a lot of stuff is so much cheaper you just can't afford the home-grown quality stuff but some countries are a lot better at supporting their own industries without the Govt breaking "world-trade" rules.
A couple of years ago I was in a group of a half-dozen bikers doing a tour in very rural western France. One afternoon we were sitting enjoying a coffee in a very small village opposite the "Marie" (mayors office/admin centre) where a wedding was in progress, one of us remarked that just about every village we had gone through either had a Marie or a Police Station that acted as information office, national govt office and the hand of local govt. One of our number then said, "Yeah and at least half seem to have a Renault dealership"
This is so very true, only yesterday Maggie and I drove to Mazingarde in northern France to visit her great uncle who has been lying there since 1915, we stopped for a drink and a bite on the way back, small village, off the beaten track, parked outside the Marie and sure enough, opposite the Renault dealership. The French buy French stuff, they do it out of choice because it makes sense to them. It might cost them a bit more but in the long run it may just be a better option. Perhaps there is a lesson somewhere.
Made in China to me usually means slightly poorer quality with unknown life expectancy.
If its electrical I have no problem with made in china.
If its hand tools then I won't buy it if its from an unknown manufacturer.
If its car parts I'll buy only if I can't source OEM or can't afford OEM or can't find a good quality 3rd party producer or the car is not worth spending the money on (the el cheapo 626 I bought got Chinese flee bay indicators).
Home product depends on what the product looks, feels and operates.
Toys what age group and value is the toy? Little kids toy that they will have for 6 months then throw, go the 2 dollar shop!
It is really a case by case. All in all its a quality, then money, then life cycle usefulness issue.
Quote from: ojstinson on October 04, 2011, 11:17:01 AM
And our doofus so called leader put the G.E. CEO in charge of the country's job creation, yeah, he's the guy that's shipping his company ( the one that paid no taxes ) jobs to China. And let's not forget that the guy in charge of our taxes is either a tax cheat or he can't figure out how to work Turbo Tax----take your pick.
On nice more conjrcture and blaming obama for what bush did.
Lets see, Tax cheat, put in the office by Bush, well he was put in the office next to the one he's been put in by Obama by bush. Sadly, a mess is best cleaned up by those who - well created it, or in this case were right next door and cheered it on when it was created.
GE CEO in charge of labor - here, there is some merit, GE may have been the biggest tax cheat, however they were not a tax cheat under Obama only, they were huge tax cheats when they were making profits, then they started losing $ and paid 0 in taxes the last 2 years . That was what caught everyone's attention. Pay attention to what is going on when times are good. BTW Google had a hugely profitable year, massive several billion in profits. Guess how much they paid in taxes. Under 2.5%. Read about it on google - it is called the Double irish with a dutch sandwich. That is our US corporations for you. Which as per Rick Perry are people too. It is not any reflection on obama, he didn't write the tax code. Its not a reflection of any bloody democrat that tax cheat is in the highest office of financial policy. Here is who gets the blame for the next 20 years of financial malaise and tax cheating - The republican majority in both houses. Why - They blocked the nomination of elizabeth warren to the consumer protection agency which is tasked with being the watchdog for the financial industry.
Blaming obama for the economy being bad and jobs going to china is pure conjecture.
This is the appropriate analogy. You give me your car for 1/2 hour. I'll fill it up with gas, drain the oil, get on the road and run it pedal to the metal. When it blows up. I'll park it. and tell you to come and get it. Then as you're trying to get it on a tow truck or to a repair shop, I'll stand around asking you have you fixed it yet ? have you fixed it yet, Better Hurry up. We need it fixed.
It was wrecked by 8 years of bush, plain and simple, jobs have been exported under bush @ a furious pace, $ has been borrowed @ an unprecedented rate under Cheney (sorry he was the president) and government has been expanded @ an unheard of rate under bush. Obama has not been able to cut it down in the 2 years he had since bush and he has not shown much of an inklination to take on the right wing to try to cut it and the programs they want to cut are all what pertains to a social safety net like insurance for the poor and school programs.
Its easy to wreck something, it can be extremely hard to get it working again as we all know.
You think the 99% protesters are protesting their taxes being too high ? stop dreaming, they are protesting cos the corporations and wealthy pay no taxes. The Tea party that started as grass roots and then took corporate $ has rather instantly lost touch with what the people want.
Cool.
Buddha.
This is not a fair debate because you somehow got a bootleg copy of Obama's Playbook of fairy tale talking points.
It's really very simple, Obama chided Bush endlessly on nearly everything he did, yet even though he had full control of everything for two and a half years ( he couldn't even get most of his crap by a dem majority---and still can't ) he has kept in place 90 percent of what Bush laid down and is still blaming him for the way things are going---I thought this was supposed to be a whole new way to run the government. In addition to closely adhering to the Bush plan, he has added a whole new set of monumental job and economy killers, not the least of which is that disastrous monstrosity of a *health care bill that only the freeloaders ( Obama's base ) of the country want. I don't envy the job you have so valiantly taken on----trying to defend a president and policies that are so absurdly disastrous to the welfare of the country, that if not so scary and sad it would be comical. As things grow worse and worse every week steadfast defenders like yourself are beginning to look more and more ridiculous----I somehow strangely admire your blind loyalty, the "Going down with the Ship" kind of loyalty.
*"Health care bill"---Has very little to do with health care and almost everything to do with paying back those who got him elected, same with the so called "Stimulus Plan ".
Just ask yourself; What's better now than under Bush's presidency?
Clinton / Greenspan set up the Bubble. Looked good under them, was doomed to fail under Bush or Obama. Blaming Bush for the fall which was hidden until Obama is also silly. And as I keep saying if you are blaming the POTUS you are falling for it like They want you too. But Bush Blamers really cannot see beyond that, or before it as the case may be. And I really don't think they want to. Much nicer to Blame Bush like the others on the band wagon and then you can all group hug and sing kumbaya.
Michael
Quote from: ojstinson on October 06, 2011, 10:03:43 AM
This is not a fair debate because you somehow got a bootleg copy of Obama's Playbook of fairy tale talking points.
It's really very simple, Obama chided Bush endlessly on nearly everything he did, yet even though he had full control of everything for two and a half years ( he couldn't even get most of his crap by a dem majority---and still can't ) he has kept in place 90 percent of what Bush laid down and is still blaming him for the way things are going---I thought this was supposed to be a whole new way to run the government. In addition to closely adhering to the Bush plan, he has added a whole new set of monumental job and economy killers, not the least of which is that disastrous monstrosity of a *health care bill that only the freeloaders ( Obama's base ) of the country want. I don't envy the job you have so valiantly taken on----trying to defend a president and policies that are so absurdly disastrous to the welfare of the country, that if not so scary and sad it would be comical. As things grow worse and worse every week steadfast defenders like yourself are beginning to look more and more ridiculous----I somehow strangely admire your blind loyalty, the "Going down with the Ship" kind of loyalty.
*"Health care bill"---Has very little to do with health care and almost everything to do with paying back those who got him elected, same with the so called "Stimulus Plan ".
Just ask yourself; What's better now than under Bush's presidency?
No sense here either.
Health care industry doesn't have Obama in their pocket, they have every POTUS in their pocket. Atleast the parts that were supposedly the "payback" parts are being struck down by state judges. Make a big mistake and the courts will step in, make a lot of smal lones and it will slide by everyone till it affects a huge segment of the population.
BTW pre existing condition inclusion, and parents policy till 26 are really about health care and are the first 2 items to go in.
Clinton did start the house bubble though, yea that inheritance and tax exemption for primary residence sale and resulting profits is huge. However Bush seriously accelerated it instead of hitting the brakes on it, one more iteration of intergenerational theft.
Anyway You need to compare Obama's options and performance against McCain's because he was the right wings alternative. You cannot compare Obama to some hypothetical past or future republican. Of the 2 likely choices presented this was the better one @ that time.
The govt budget has not accelerated as much as it did under bush under obama, the whole healthcare issue has been arranged to get the really bad items thrown out by judges, the good parts go in first and the bad parts last. If they get past the judges. I can only see 1 way to have done it any better. Make it illegal for insurance companies to confer with doctors and hospitals. As in, no one is going to take insurance directly and no one is on any "network" ... people buy insurance whatever, but they pay the doctors/hospitals. They then get the docs to the insurance companies electronically right from the doctors office. That will prevent doctors from charging one guy 400 and nother $14 for the same procedure.
He was supposed to close guantanamo, however no congressman wanted the prisoners to get to their jail.
In any case, he is no worse than McCain and possibly better than most options available @ the start of primary season in 08 - Ron Paul comes to mind as one that will ahve been better.
Cool.
Buddha.
Made in China ? Fuggedaboudit.
http://www.amazon.ca/Your-World-About-Whole-Smaller/dp/0307357511
Quote from: ojstinson on October 06, 2011, 10:03:43 AM
he has kept in place 90 percent of what Bush laid down and is still blaming him for the way things are going---I thought this was supposed to be a whole new way to run the government.
This could not be more true, sadly that is why I am hoping Ron Paul gets the republican nomination, that will then move me to vote for him. Else I'll sit this one also out unless Perry, Palin or Backman are the republican Nominees, then I will get my self to vote for Omaba.
I'd like for someone to explain a "job killer" to me, cos it looks like we seem to br "creating" all our jobs in China. So a job killer would be great for the US, we're not creating chinese jobs.
Quote from: ojstinson on October 06, 2011, 10:03:43 AM
Just ask yourself; What's better now than under Bush's presidency?
This is easy. In my life, everything is, I spent 10 months in 05 unemployed, and 5 months in 07, From 09 jan through now I have been employed almost continously, there was a month or so in 09 sept, another month in March 10 and another few weeks in sept 10. However I have a few things different about my career. I am not worried about being exported to China, I was worried about being exported to India, and the thnig is, in India I can almost make as much money and that $ goes a lot further. However I dont give credit to Obama for that, I give credit to India's cost of living rising and wiping out the 30-40% cost saving from outsourcing.
One thing people need to understand is - OK its 3-4 things.
1. The stock market is not the economy.
2. The President can do very little about the economy and most all of that is negative.
3. The president should stop taking credit and hence not be assigned any blame for the economy tanking.
4. Rules and changes in rules dont neccesarily make it "job killing" and we need to remember the lack of rules and lack of enforcement of the existing rules are what caused a financial meltdown. We need rules, else the rich will run rough shod over the rest of the people - as is happening now.
Cool.
Buddha.
This is so stupid, I don't know why I get into these never ending, no one ever convinces anyone of anything arguments----- it's like the; There is a God/ God doesn't exist debate, it's as infinite as the universe.
Quote from: ojstinson on October 06, 2011, 03:15:39 PM
This is so stupid, I don't know why I get into these never ending, no one ever convinces anyone of anything arguments----- it's like the; There is a God/ God doesn't exist debate, it's as infinite as the universe.
That is a good point. You cannot convince any one cos you just have a gut feeling. The bad elements have all been installed by Cheney/Bush and unfortunately Obama continued them. He also continued the bail out ... McCain will also have done the exact same thing, we were all told by independent economists that that was the right thing to do. WTF ... the righ tthing to do is to arrest these fools who asked for bail outs and let their companies go bankrupt.
Seriously I never have been motivated to vote so far, if it is Herman Cain or Mitt Romney against Obama I will not bother, I dont think any of those 2 is worse or better than Obama. If it is Ron Paul I will be the first in line to vote for him. BTW I had jury duty tuesday/wednesday - yesterday, and there was a guy among the 100+ in the pool that looks like Ron Paul, I so badly wanted to get a pic with him, but sadly I was the first freaking juror called and I went and was stuck in court all tuesday and most of wednesday ... anyway RP gets my vote if he is on, Cain and Romney get the same indifference from me as the current POTUS, and Backman, Perry, Palin get me to vote for Obama but I wont be first in line.
I am a true independent, Hillary on the democrap ticket in 08 will have got me to vote for McCain, so would have RP on the republican ticket regardless of who was on democrap, however I do have a basis in fact for who I am voting for and why, not just blind allegiance.
Want my vote, work for it, or wait for the other guy to screw up ...
So far the republicans in congress are rather strongly pointing out that they favor the rich, and Cheney/bush did that so extremely well ... Its government for the rich, by the rich, to the rich. Its called lobbying, unless you have a lobbyist you dont have a voice. Giving tax breaks to the rich isn't going to make the rich employ more poor people ...
Cool.
Buddha.
How the political system works...
Pollie 1: The pre4vious guys used to kick you in the guts, Mon, Wed and Fir. I'll only kick you in the guts on Tue so you have time to be good for the weekend.
Pollie 2: I'll kick you in the guts on Wednesday and Thursday, but it will only be half as hard and each time I'll give you a bag of jelly beans.
Full on Freedom Pollie: I won't kick you in the guts at all.
Pollie 1 & 2 who are from major parties - and in league with MSM - launch hit Pieces on Pollie 3, stop pollie 3 from entering "Presidential Debates" etc.
The pollies, all of them, work for Big Pharma, Big Money, etc. They only Pretend to work For The People. Again, stop Blaming Them and look Behind Them and put the blame where it starts.
Old Ronnie was not good. Bush 1 neither, nor Clinton. But again we have this Dubbya Burning all the time. Sheesh. The previous don't get any passes. Ask those who went through the S&L what they think of old Ronnie... but again, it was Big Money behind it all.
Anyway. This has nothing to do with Made IN China....
Michael
Yea but ... yea but ... yea but ... Cheney went to 2 wars @ false pretences.
Cool.
Buddha.
Back to the original proposition, I think most of us have shown a disquiet at the very least about Chinese goods and we are all sitting in front of computers. I recently "built" - assembled would be more accurate - this custom one of mine - eight major components, all from China and south east Asia and I've just looked at the associated sound system, mouse, keyboard and screen - You've figured where this is going :icon_mrgreen: :D
Fess-up time -- By build/assemble what I actually did was connect push fit connectors together under the eye and guidance of Maggie's 14 yr old grandson.
Quote from: The Buddha on October 07, 2011, 02:32:24 PM
Yea but ... yea but ... yea but ... Cheney went to 2 wars @ false pretences.
Cool.
Buddha.
And Clinton?
Kosovo was not False Pretenses?
Sending Cruise Missiles into Sudan and Afghanistan and bombing Iraq from afar?
Or maybe you forget it was Bill Clinton who started all the "Iraq has WMD and is seeking nukes" stuff you so readily blame on Bush/Cheney. It was in his 1998 State of the Uniion. Maybe you also forget it was Bill Clinton who signed H.R. 4655 into law on October 31, 1998, which instituted a policy of "regime change" against Iraq.
See. No POTUS gets a pass cause none are worthy of getting a pass. You cannot blame one without blaming those before either. Even though they are mere puppets of the string pullers who you do not blame. Continue to blame the POTUS of the moment and the string puller's ruse has worked.
Michael
Quote from: mister on October 07, 2011, 04:02:39 PM
Quote from: The Buddha on October 07, 2011, 02:32:24 PM
Yea but ... yea but ... yea but ... Cheney went to 2 wars @ false pretences.
Cool.
Buddha.
And Clinton?
Kosovo was not False Pretenses?
Sending Cruise Missiles into Sudan and Afghanistan and bombing Iraq from afar?
Or maybe you forget it was Bill Clinton who started all the "Iraq has WMD and is seeking nukes" stuff you so readily blame on Bush/Cheney. It was in his 1998 State of the Uniion. Maybe you also forget it was Bill Clinton who signed H.R. 4655 into law on October 31, 1998, which instituted a policy of "regime change" against Iraq.
See. No POTUS gets a pass cause none are worthy of getting a pass. You cannot blame one without blaming those before either. Even though they are mere puppets of the string pullers who you do not blame. Continue to blame the POTUS of the moment and the string puller's ruse has worked.
Michael
Kosovo was not false pretences. It was favoritism, much like the Georgia vs Russia of last year where we didn't intervene.
Yes saddam was trying to get nuclear weapons, however he wasn't very close and he wasn't colluding with al quaida as Cheney told us. Worse yet, saddam kept Iran under check. Very shortsightedly the war against Iraq has worked in Iran's favor. Regime change in Iraq would have worked in the favor of the west without handing the upper hand to Iran.
The US recomends "regime change" in a lot of cases, not all of those are to be done with random invasions.
The missiles into afganisthan on intel that Osama Bin Laden was there in a tent = appropriate response in the case of the attack on the USS cole.
Remember even the worst Bush hater wont complain about the war in afganisthan, jus tthe fact that there was time frame or exit strategy in that one. The Iraq quagmire is what they refer to as the false pretences.
Clinton started the bubble on housing, definetely, Clinton also gave a lot of hope to illegals by signing into law in those last days the last significant piece of legislation on the immigration front, which shortened the lines for a lot of legal immigrants. sadly it came too late to have any impact on me.
Of course not that you have mentioned it, but Clinton did a lot of things ... Monica, Jennifer just to name 2. Clinton also shafted Veterans in a nutshell.
Cool.
Buddha.
Made in china = probably not gonna last too long but could surprise.
I see your point though mister - The problem occours when each subsequent fool adds to what the previous fool did cos they are all in the pockets of big business, wasn't this why they imposed term limts on presidents.
I didn't get to the US till Clintstone was in office, but bush continued clintols folly atleast on housing and maybe Iraq. Bush's path was picked up by obama, and will also have been picked up by McCain, so in the last 20 years we have really had 1 president on the important issues. Of course social and religious issues they were all opposites. But where it counts they were the same.
Cool.
Buddha.